Democrats pick Pelosi again


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Nancy Pelosi has fought off a challenge to her position as the House Democratic leader, winning 134 to 63.

Considering how badly the Democrats have fared in elections under her leadership, her victory here indicates strongly the bankrupt state of the Democratic Party. They seem unable at all to accept any blame for their losses, which would be the first step in reforming their increasingly corrupt party. Instead, they have been doubling down on the same rejected leftwing and race-based policies. Note also how the Democratic Party has become entirely dominated by its urban and coastal regions. While those areas have become almost one-party states run unopposed by the Democratic Party, their influence is very regionally limited and has been strongly rejected by most of the rest of the country. Even so, the Democrats continue to pick as their leader an extreme leftist from the extremely leftist San Francisco area.

None of this bodes well for either the Democratic Party, or the nation on the whole. To have a healthy democracy you need a healthy opposition party. Right now we do not have it.

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45 comments

  • Frank

    The early morning vote occurred in a House office building committee chamber. It was closed to the public and the media. Lawmakers made their choice via secret ballot. Pelosi’s victory came after a group of Democrats stood up and praised her as a strong leader who has kept the caucus united and who is “battle-tested, “seasoned,” and “tough.

    Yes, she’s seasoned.

    Steve’s Second Law of Holes says that when you’re opponent is in one, hand them a bigger and nicer shovel.

  • wayne

    Frank:
    HAR–I LIKE IT!
    Well done.

    >any more of these Hole Rules?! elaborate if possible.

    Mr. Z:
    ” To have a healthy democracy you need a healthy opposition party. Right now we do not have it.”

    >Extremely, nicely, well said!

    Q: Hmmm, don’t they call 1 Party rule, a tyranny?

    {Edward– sarcasm alert!}

  • Cotour

    Replated from another post:

    Pelosi prevails in keeping her position: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/308034-pelosi-holds-onto-leadership

    This is the continued death spiral of the Democrat party, they needed to put her out to pasture and they were unable or unwilling to. Big mistake IMO. If you have ever listened to her you understand that she unfit to lead a girl scout troop, never mind her party.

    They need new blood that does not support the destruction of America and the Constitution, and that new blood may turn out to be in the form of a Muslim Brotherhood supporter, Keith Ellison to head the DNC.

    A death spiral that will be long lasting.

  • Keith

    Has anyone called for a recount ?

  • Des

    >>Considering how badly the Democrats have fared in elections under her leadership

    No acknowledgement that Democrats won the popular vote by a considerable margin and that Republicans won the election by a technicality?

  • Cotour

    This is what the Democrats have reconnected with and endorse:

    https://youtu.be/Hy0aMY2-tYE

    Pelosi is Demonstrably Coo Coo and intellectually challenged to say the least IMO and this is the direction that they openly and willingly choose to go. I think this is a sign of the Borg like mentality of the Dems. No one dares to step out of the leadership proscribed box.

    Again, a big strategic mistake.

  • wayne

    Des:
    Respectfully, the Electoral College is not a technicality. (I do get your general point. Can’t speak on behalf of Mr. Z., but I would concur with his presentation.)
    Full granted however, it wasn’t a blow-out like Reagan. But DJT did get more than the necessary number.

    This might be enlightening–
    “Mark Levin: The hidden group that won election for Trump; Was there an Electoral College landslide?”
    https://youtu.be/FIb6IDfumzc

    The Stats start about at the 3:30 mark.
    (and historical Electoral College vote-stats start around 13:30)
    >Good American History and analysis, no matter what one might think about Levin. DJT is in the bottom 10, as far as winning Electoral vote percentages.
    > and as well, good encouragement to those of us with a considerably more Conservative bent than the president-elect.

    (Personally, I fall into the category Levin discusses in-part & was a Cruz Guy. I normally would have walked the neighborhood & knocked on doors for the R nominee, but I did not, and/but…
    HRC had to be stopped, so I voted against her by marking the DJT slot. (with Garry’s radiation-suit underneath my Iron-Man suit, and I still didn’t like doing it.)

    Mr Z had this whole thing characterized a long time ago…. we essentially elected a more old-school limousine-liberal billionaire Democrat, in opposition to HRC. And the GOP establishment types, rejected the actual Conservatives in their own Party, in favor of this “New & Improved” old-school Democrat.
    (It’s all Alice Through the Looking Glass type stuff, at least to me.)

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    Ref your video-link.
    HA. Good one.
    (“Synchronicity,” would you believe… I actually toyed with linking that exact clip.)

  • Des: I was very careful to note how the Democratic vote totals are strongly concentrated in the big urban areas and on the coasts. They win those areas with gigantic majorities (which includes many illegal voters). This gave them an overall majority, but when you look at the whole nation, their dominance vanishes everywhere else. In fact, they lose badly everywhere else. This is why they control only a handful of state legislatures.

    Having lived in several of those big city coastal areas, I have seen the knee-jerk Democratic and partisan mindlessness of those voters. Too many people there simply vote Democratic because that is what they believe they are supposed to do, without knowing very much about anything. The result in these regions is a one party state with no competition. This is very unhealthy, for them, for their cities, for the Democratic Party itself, and the nation.

  • Jim Jakoubek

    Pelosi again? Wow!

    A woman who has lead her party to ruin while enriching herself in the processes.

    2010, 2012 and 2014 mean nothing to Democrats it would seem. 2016 should have finally
    been the eye-opener but not so much so it would seem.

    Can not wait when she starts running off her mouth how Republicans want to destroy the
    planet and throw seniors out of their homes.

    Our incoming President will get the Democrats in the House in line and show just what kind
    of “leader: she always was. Big mistake on their part.

  • Cotour

    I now have a real appreciation of the electorial college system that was designed by the Founders that I did not have before. Once again the Founders prove to be the brilliant engineers of freedom. This system does not allow the gaming of our system by one party or the other and ensures a voice and a say to each state. Much to the frustration of Ted Kennedy and his fellow leftists who endeavored to game the system by flooding the country with illegals.

    (I am certain that he sits with Lucifer in his living room in his boxer shorts, drinking water glasses full of Dewars 18 year old Scotch, cursing and yelling at Fox News as they report on the Dems defeats)

    Wayne, great minds tend to think alike. And, I was proud to hear that you held your nose and did what had to be done, well done. I know it was not easy for you.

    (I think that Levin will succumb to his heart condition if Trump elevates Corker in some capacity to his cabinet)

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    We did win the political Battle for a moment, but at a great cost, and the political War proceeds apace.
    (There has to be a Machiavellian/Shakespearian, WW-1, Civil War, analogy in there somewhere.)

    tangentially-
    If you appreciate the Electoral College, help us to repeal the 17th Amendment. Senators are supposed to represent their respective States & be elected by State Legislatures. It’s original manufacturer-specifications, for a damn good reason, but I digress.

    Not a huge fan of DJT as you know, …I never hated the guy, but he’s not Obama & he’s not HRC, everything else is subject to vigorous debate.
    -HRC had to stopped. I just hope it wasn’t a suicide-mission on my part.
    (I remain highly sympathetic & emphasize greatly, with large amounts of Edward’s commentary the past months.)

    Yow…I’m going to burst an artery myself, if Corker is elevated.

    on a more fanciful tangent…

    Janis Joplin-Mercedes Benz
    https://youtu.be/Qev-i9-VKlY

  • wodun

    Hillary won less than 16% of the country’s counties. I wonder how that compares to previous elections but am too lazy to research it.

    Having lived in several of those big city coastal areas, I have seen the knee-jerk Democratic and partisan mindlessness of those voters.

    It is because of identity politics.

  • diane wilson

    It’s not all identity politics. A lot of it is the environmentalists, both the NIMBY variety and the BANANA* variety. It’s arrogance and hubris that result from always being “right” due to the media bubble and lack of opposition. It’s that mission to save the world, where cost is not a consideration.

    *BANANA – Build Absolutely Nothing, Anywhere, Near Anything

  • Diane Wilson: BANANA: I like that. It seems to apply to almost all leftists, unless they are getting some power or personal financial benefit. Then its perfectly all right.

  • wayne

    diane wilson:
    Most excellent!
    I like the “BANANA.”
    :)

  • Mitch S.

    Wayne, I disagree when you say:
    ” the GOP establishment types, rejected the actual Conservatives in their own Party, in favor of this “New & Improved” old-school Democrat.”
    The GOP establishment utterly rejected Trump – even if it meant a Hillary win. Heck the Bush’s were practically campaigning for her.
    The Republican voters rejected the establishment. If they hadn’t gone with Trump it would have been Cruz.

    As far as Levin’s analysis, of course the conservative votes were vital for Trump’s win. But so were the votes of more liberal Trump voters.
    While Trump’s win is certainly not a mandate for his more liberal leanings, it’s also not a mandate for conservative issues, especially in social areas (abortion, gay rights etc).
    Trump will not morph into a new Reagan no matter how hard conservatives push him.
    The goal at this point is to have a President Trump that does a reasonable job with no major screw-ups.
    No matter how weak they look now, the Dems will be waiting for a new opportunity (and they could be an even more dangerous lefty bunch in four years).

    Laura Ingraham has a read on the popular vote margin that is more illuminating:
    “…2.) Now let’s look at that popular vote more closely. As of today, according to The New York Times, Hillary Clinton has 62,391,335 votes from all states. She has 1,969,920 votes from the five counties that make up New York City, and 1,893,770 votes from Los Angeles County, California. Donald Trump has 61,125,956 votes from all states, including 461,174 votes from the five counties that make up New York City, and 620,285 votes from L.A. County. In other words, Hillary beat Trump 3,863,690 to 1,081,459 in New York and L.A.; he beat her by 60,044,497 to 58,527,645 in the rest of the country. So Hillary’s margin in the popular vote rests entirely on her margin in two large cities — neither of which was contested by the Trump campaign.”

    http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/hillarys-popular-vote-holdouts-collision-course-history/

  • eddie willers

    The goal at this point is to have a President Trump that does a reasonable job with no major screw-ups.

    SCOTUS choices alone made Trump’s election crucial.

    And so far, I have been pleasantly pleased with his cabinet and other picks so far. Being from Georgia, I am particularly please with his choice of Dr. Tom Price.

  • wayne

    Mitch–
    I would concur in large measure and retract that particular phraseology I used. It’s not precisely what I meant to convey.

    Absolutely agree that DJT does not have an internal-conservative bent and won’t & can’t morph into a Reagan. I tend to think he “can be worked on,” by the right Conservative forces, but at his core he’ll break left, & with Priebus & McCarthy involved, all bets are off.

    Trump does have some excellent Goals & I’m willing to wait-and-see.
    (In the meantime, I’m devoting my time to Convention of States.)

    I’d be interested in your take on the rift(s) between the various factions of the GOP going forward.

    (I differentiate between rino’s, crony’s, progressives, republican’s, and conservative elements of the GOP, & every permutation thereof.)

  • Edward

    Des wrote: Republicans won the election by a technicality

    Technically, this is how the election is run. Had it been a strict popular vote, then the campaigns would have worked very differently, and it is entirely possible that Trump would have gained the popular vote, too. Trump ignored certain large states that would have gone to Clinton anyway, so he did not try to get votes from those states. Had he campaigned there, many of those people would have felt the love and voted for him rather than for Clinton or another candidate on the ballot or not voting at all.

    Since the election is not an election by the entire population but only by the electoral college, he will win the election, in a few days. Period. What he won were the votes of those who actually cast the votes for president.

    America is not a democracy. It is a republic, even when it comes to voting for president.

    Diane Wilson,
    That gives new meaning to “BANANA republic.”

  • wayne

    Edward– most excellent wordsmithing ref- “BANANA Republic.”
    :)

    And yes, we are a federal republic and not a pure Democracy.
    >Founders were well aware of the propensity of people to form Factions and the tyranny of majority-rule against the minority. We use 4 different methods to confer political power upon our leaders precisely to hinder factionalism and tyranny.

    1-only Representatives are supposed to be directly elected by the People, they are the closest to the voters & can be gotten at every 2 years.
    2-Senators are supposed to be elected by State Representatives & are supposed to answer to their respective States. (The 17th Amendment effectively rendered the Senate useless– who needs the Senate, if they don’t answer to the States?)
    3-Presidents are elected by the Electoral College, which evens out large vs small States.
    4thly; the Judicial Branch is appointed by the President & confirmed by the Senate.

    But, even if all the mechanisms are in place and functioning correctly (and the Progressives have been breaching the firewalls for 100+ years), we lack virtuous-leaders & they have learned to collude with one another against the citizenry.

    I remain hopeful but I fear we are already in free-fall, and our leaders don’t want to admit it to us. DJT is a brief respite at best. If he goes full tilt progressive + crony, left or right-esque variants, we’ll implode faster than with Obama. He can probably goose the economy in the short term, but we still have a $20 trillion debt & $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities. You don’t grow your way of that, you have to slash spending and I’m doubting DJT is up to that particular task.

  • Garry

    Wayne,

    You bring up something I’ve been chewing on: what will be the result of Trump’s approach toward spending? Will he work with Congress to change the nature of federal employment, so that he can live up to his trademark “You’re fired!”? Will he relentlessly seek to reduce expenses, as he (reportedly) does in his businesses? Will he keep the gravy train going, or even accelerate it? Will he keep his business oriented approach, being proud to bring a new approach to Washington, or will he go to the government approach?

    Trump strikes me as results oriented; I’m curious about whether he’ll try to bring this approach to, for example, military procurement, which is full of wasteful decisions.

    I think our leaders don’t want to admit to themselves, never mind us, that we are in free fall. We can take some comfort in the rest of the industrialized world also being in free fall, with worse demographics than ours.

    As far as national finances go, I’m afraid we’re headed for a major day of reckoning. Perhaps that’s what’s kept better qualified candidates from running for president; nobody wants to be the one in power when the excrement hits the fan.

  • LocalFluff

    Trump is kind of opposition and government two-in-one. And the party bureaucracy can by cut back until, like in the Apprentice, only the best one remains. The dusky night has many eyes, but the bright day only One.

  • wayne

    Garry– good stuff.
    (yow, wrote a whole paragraph of brilliant prose and then clicked on the wrong browser-tab and lost it!)

    Trump apparently thinks he can grow his way out of a 20 trillion debt.
    His tax proposal are great, but he must slash spending. Slash spending.

    Check this out–
    Amity Shlaes on Coolidge
    https://youtu.be/EVn8ytEq-vU?t=308

    Clip starts at time-index 308, with video of Coolidge speaking on his philosophy of taxation.

  • ken anthony

    Slashing spending is key, but how to do it without facing the firing squad? That’s the trick and only someone immune to the media charade can possibly do it.

    The left has learned nothing from this election. They continue using the playbook that America is on to. The only danger is if they aren’t completely destroyed.

    Then the arguments can be where they belong… reason instead of hysteria.

    Can we get Hillary and Pelosi sealed in carbonite so they can run forever?

  • wayne

    Ken–
    Good stuff.

    “I want the people of America to be able to work less for the government, and more for themselves. I want them to have the rewards of their own industry. This is the chief meaning of freedom. Until we can re-establish a condition under which the earning’s of the people, can be kept by the people, we are bound to suffer a very severe and distinct curtailment of our liberty.”
    Calvin Coolidge.

  • Des

    Robert:
    You say that there are many illegal voters. What evidence is there of this? I have seen plenty of claims that this is happening but absolutely no evidence other than a tiny number of individual cases.

  • Cotour

    And down, down, down they go…………..politically correct to the end. No one has the sense to tell this guy to take a powder.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/politics/kfile-keith-ellison-nation-of-islam/index.html

    Yes, give them all nice, shinny new shovels to dig their hole deep and deeper still. If Trump can keep it all together he has the opportunity to ensure they will never again have any kind of real power in America.

    Yeah, Obama has “shovel ready” projects, apparently its to dig their own political graves.

    I say good riddance!

    Trump has not even been installed and he has a general optimistic feeling going on AND he is making positive consequential deals to boot. He has done more waiting to become president for the workers at Carrier then Obama has accomplished in 8 years!

  • Garry

    Des, I would guess that the correct answer of how many illegal voters there are is “more than a few” but (I hope) “less than millions.”

    The President didn’t help perception with his interview on “voting myths” in which the (selectively edited) video appears to show him encouraging illegals to vote. I was outraged when I first saw the video, and later suspected it had been heavily edited, which it was. However, if you read the full transcript (available here http://hotair.com/archives/2016/11/07/video-obama-encouraging-illegal-immigrants-vote/) you’ll see that he gave an ambiguous answer; as mentioned at the link, he should have emphatically stated that illegals can’t vote.

    The link discusses other stories of fraud as well.

    I’ve seen credible allegations of illegal votes; one person who worked in an Alzheimer’s center told me that the center would receive absentee ballots for its patients and fill in the ballots, usually without the patient’s or his/her family’s knowledge.

    My state requires a photo id to vote, but I can’t remember what proof of citizenship I had to present to register to vote in the first place.

    My experience with government is that rogue “public servants” often break the rules (even when the rules are adequate), and I would be surprised if there isn’t widespread fraud in some localities.

    There’s not enough proof available to say that millions voted illegally, but there’s not enough proof to disprove it, either. I would love to see a serious attempt to uncover the truth.

  • Edward

    wayne,
    You wrote: “The 17th Amendment effectively rendered the Senate useless– who needs the Senate, if they don’t answer to the States?

    That is a good way of phrasing it. It sounds better than my usual take: the states are no longer represented, which is why “unfunded mandates” were imposed upon them and why it took so long to get rid of them.

    Garry wrote: “Perhaps that’s what’s kept better qualified candidates from running for president; nobody wants to be the one in power when the excrement hits the fan.

    The Republican Party had several well qualified candidates running during the primaries, but they were rejected. Even Bernie Sanders was a better qualified candidate, although I think his socialist ways would have been terrible for America.

    When the stuff finally hits the fan, it will be important to have the right people in place to calm or ease the panic and to make the right decisions. It will be the difference between turning a recession into a depression, as happened in 1930 and 2008, vs. turning a recession into a recovery, as happened in 1921, 1961, and 1981.

    wayne wrote: “yow, wrote a whole paragraph of brilliant prose and then clicked on the wrong browser-tab and lost it!

    I hate when that happens. Sometimes when I get long winded (do I ever not?), I move to Word and save often in order to prevent losing a good rant. Although I haven’t done it yet for this one. (Fingers crossed on not screwing up while clicking tabs.)

    ken anthony wrote: “Then the arguments can be where they belong… reason instead of hysteria.

    Unfortunately, the way to reach most liberals and Democrats is not through reason (read: “reasonable dialog”) but through emotion. Otherwise, they would realize the obvious, such as that Keynesian Economics does not work.

    Remember the phrase “but at what cost” when one tells you how much better is the liberal/socialist/communist/whatever way. (e.g. liberal says: “Canadian Healthcare is better than US healthcare.” I reply: “But it can literally cost you a leg!” Then link to Crowder’s YouTube on Canadian healthcare at the 10 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw#t=614 )

    This is also why Democrats are so terrible at getting us out of recessions and even at driving recessions into depressions (the current economic recovery is worse than the recovery during the Great Depression, but no one points this out). As Cotour kind of noted, “shovel ready” was an emotional phrase. All those “shovel ready” projects were ready because they had already been funded by other means, but no one noticed that logical fact. Then they spent at least $5,000 billion more than Bush did, yet are farther from a normal economy than Bush was. Unless you are willing to accept this terrible, continuing recession/depression as “the new normal.”

    For some, hysteria works better than logic. This is why Pelosi is still Minority Leader. If the Democrats were logical, they would have thrown her out for a better leader, but they are not using reason, they are using emotion. Even if they realize that she is a terrible choice, they have kept her on for emotional reasons.

    I guess I should have saved this one to Word, after all.

  • Cotour

    “Even Bernie Sanders was a better qualified candidate, ”

    Really? Seriously?

    You really think Bernie Sanders, a Communist, is a better qualified candidate and is more qualified when the “excrement hits the fan” ?

  • wayne

    Garry/Edward–
    Good stuff.

    >I absentee voted this year but normally would have to present my driver’s-license (which they electronically swipe) & check if my name was on the voter-list. We use optical scanner & paper-ballot. (and the machines are not networked or on-line)
    Had to present a birth-certificate to get my first drivers-license, but after that, registering to vote (even when I had moved between States)– was incredibly easy, probably too easy.

    Fraud does exists. I tend to think it’s concentrated but sporadic and targeted to specific Congressional districts, primarily urban. (It’s just easier in those setting’s.)
    It’s some percentage of the roughly 120 million votes cast, and we would probably be shocked.

    Huge opponent of the 17th Amendment. Progressives sold it as “better democracy.” And they knew it was a key firewall they had to circumvent in order to dismantle our government.

    I’ll say it again– who needs the Senate, if they aren’t responsible to their respective State legislatures?

  • wayne

    Cotour– not to pick on you, but ya raised the Carrier/Trump thing.

    It sorta sounds “good,” on it’s superficial face, but Carrier [United Technologies] received cash & tax benefits from the State.

    It’s pure Cronyism+ Corporatism with a hefty dose of 3rd-world Despotism, cloaked in “for the Country & the Workers.”
    Straight out of the Progressive Playbook of FDR, hook, line, and sinker.

    The President, (or the President-elect,) doesn’t have any “power” to call private individuals and “cut-deals” with them.

    If he does this sorta stuff when he is the President, he’ll be (rightfully) impeached.

  • wayne

    Crony Chronicles:
    Miracle on Wall Street
    https://youtu.be/zsbH4W4vxfs
    (1:08)

  • Edward

    Cotour,
    Please do not confuse “qualification for office” with “quality of service.”

    The rest of my rant explains in no uncertain terms that liberal and socialist policies have been proved to be wrong, but having bad policies does not make a candidate unqualified. It just makes him the worst president ever.

    On the other hand, to use your apparent definition, I do not recall Sanders proposing huge tariffs on imports, and I do recall Trump saying that some of Clinton’s proposals were not far-left enough. Other proposals of Trump’s would likewise be terrible for America, should he choose to push for their enactment. Trump offers a very, very low bar for your apparent definition of qualification. My cat could do better than many of Trump’s proposals, and he has been dead for a few years.

    Sometimes doing nothing, as my dead cat would have done had he been elected president, is a better solution than doing the wrong thing, which is the lesson from the Great Depression (GD) and from Obama’s Great Recession (OGR). One of the problems that “doing something” created was uncertainty within the business community. Not knowing what or when the next stupid government interference was hurt planning for virtually every company in America, during the GD OGR.

    wayne,
    Project Veritas recently described a kind of voter fraud — from the very mouths of the fraud organizers (e.g. the NYC Democratic Election Commissioner) — that has been known for decades. The 1940 movie “The Great McGinty” demonstrates a way to work it.

  • wayne

    Edward– thanks, I saw some of those videos. And I will check that movie. (highly enjoy films from that era.)
    Yo– have some (ignorant) rocket-scientist questions in the ‘Russian rocket didn’t make it’ thread you probably know the answers.

  • Garry

    Wayne – I couldn’t agree with you more on the 17th Amendment. It’s a huge reason why we are no longer “states” in the full sense of the term. If I had to explain in a few words what our biggest shortcoming as a country is, I would say, “the federal government has become too powerful, to the point where the states aren’t all that different.”

    Another huge reason is the interpretation of the Interstate Commerce Clause.

    There have been other, less direct assaults on the power of the states, such as the way the legal drinking age of 21 was imposed, basically, “You [the states] can have any legal drinking age you’d like, but only states that make it 21 will qualify for federal highway funds.”

  • wayne

    Garry-
    Excellent stuff.

    And right on, with the Commerce Clause. If we could roll-back all those Supreme Court ruling’s, we would be infinitely better off. Practically every Federal intrusion into the States is predicated on some aspect of (wrongly decided, in my opinion) Commerce Clause law.
    –Even to the point where not growing wheat, was ruled to be effecting interstate-commerce.

    Prof Richard Epstein from Hoover has done a lot of good work on Commerce Clause stuff. (He appears on JBS quite regularly.)

  • Cotour

    Its funny, I was going to sight my cat (alive) as a better choice than Bernie Sanders or Hillary. Your dead cat probably makes good decisions 50 percent of the time, I endorse his system.

    My general point is that there is a growing optimism after the demise of “The Obama years”, and that general feeling is due in part to Obama leaving very soon and the Trump effect. Trump in reality will have to be careful in how he maneuvers a cajoles those who are to be cajoled. He tends to get a bit loose and sappy when he speaks after a “win”. The masses, the Congress and Senate and the Supreme Court will have to help guide him and his loose speech. Its probably best to keep him under a hefty stress level in order to keep him thinking properly and speaking less.

    He has yet to be worked by the other side of the equation. I have had several conversations about the Carrier situation and the powerful attractant of much cheaper labor and the legality of utilizing it just across the border. Its just a fact, its more costly to manufacture something in a first world more developed country than a third world relatively undeveloped country.

    I think the discrepancy is between $26.00 here and $3.00 per hour there. I do not know how much even some deregulation or tax subsidies will effect such discrepancies, in the end CEO’s have a fiduciary responsibility to their share holders. Its up to the government to create proper incentives and disincentives to promote a general positive atmosphere for business, but there is a line.

    In general I am happy with Trump and his potential, and more importantly I am happy that neither Hillary or Bernie will ever become the president.

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    I’m euphoric that HRC is not President! (We already have Bernie, his name is Obama. Bernie is just more vocal about his communism.)
    I’m just highly leery of the future, but in an Entirely Different Manner than I was in October.

    You, have always been “happy with Trump and his potential.”
    :)
    Some of us here, just worry about what that “potential” might be.
    (Edward– you keep right on ranting!)

    From what I know about that particular Carrier Plant; EPA Regulations were the biggie, followed by the cost of labor. (On a Corporate level, it’s EPA and general Corporate tax-rates.)
    They sell this stuff worldwide and it’s a “global” company. Union workforce, highly mechanized, moderately dirty industrial process. Definitely skilled but not ultra-skilled, they are “good jobs,” but probably can be done cheaper, elsewhere.
    I don’t know about wage-rates there. (Seems on the high-end, but that’s relative to my area in Michigan & we now have right-to-work.)
    –The only number I’ve heard— “$7 million from the State,” to stay. Along with unspecified State regs being modified at some point in the future & whatever Fed regs they were promised would change.
    It’s smacks heavily of Crony Corporatism.

    I did see his Carrier speech and caught a few minutes tonight of his victory-tour remarks.
    Sounds Corporatist to me!
    He’s not Mussolini…but it sure sounds like Mussolini.

  • wodun

    Des
    December 1, 2016 at 1:56 pm
    Robert:
    You say that there are many illegal voters. What evidence is there of this?

    It not even something that is looked for.

    It’s like saying there are no rocks under the sidewalk because no one has looked under the sidewalk. But you know there are rocks down there.

  • Cotour

    I think its reasonable to assume that there are illegals voting in “sanctuary” cities to some degree. The entire premise of the sanctuary city is that these people who are here illegally are actually here as of right, so why wouldn’t anyone who believed that not look to vote?

    Read anything from La Raza and you will understand better.

    Why do you think that the criteria for establishing eligibility by the Left to vote in many states has been fought and lowered to a level where it is all made possible? Obama himself and many others covertly encourages it in his / their Leftist double speak, always riding the line of interpretation. Controlling the country in perpetuity through this agenda of flooding the country from the Lefts point of view is well understood and is underway.

    This election and this subject perfectly illustrates the function of the electorial college. Never allow any Leftist argue that it be abandoned. Because upon that day that is the day where the two Leftist coasts run the rest of the country, which is plainly more reasonable and is more Conservative and American interests oriented.

    Prove it? I do not have to prove it to know it is happening.

  • Des

    Colour:
    Do you take the same view on climate change, that no evidence is required ? My guess is you don’t, as it wouldn’t suit your political view. Robert rightly demands that the evidence be closely examined for human influenced climate change. Repeated claims based on zero evidence on voter fraud only makes it obvious if that is that it’s what you want to believe. There is a huge problem with gerrymandering but you don’t seem to have an issue with that.
    If the position was reversed Republicans would be calling for reform of the electoral college and Democrats would oppose it. The current system means that the votes of only a few states actually matter. The fact that it is mostly small states is accidentally. The electoral college is not designed to protect small states. That’s what the Senate is designed for.

  • Cotour

    Des:

    My contention is the it is “reasonable” to assume given the organizations that we are speaking of that in these locations there are abuses, the logic of the situation indicates that its more than likely true. How much abuse exists is unknown to me but the people who promote such things present the logic to those who would do so and so I reasonable assume that they do. Let us not be naive.

    We can do the investigations at a later date to establish the numbers related to who and how many have abused the system.

    And my position on “climate change” is that the climate changes every minute of every day, your choice of terminology is sooo general so as to have no meaning, and that is as per design. But if you want to ask the question ” to what degree does human activity effect the earths climate and atmosphere” then you are asking a reasonable question on the road to finding an answer. I suspect that human activity has some effect on the climate, but to the extent that the “climate change” proponents believe. IMO the better and again, more reasonable, question is about pollution in general and its effects on the environment and the climate.

    Please do not assume that I do not value actual facts and information but this subject of illegality and immigration is charged and is divisive and to certain extents it is reasonable to make assumptions in many situations.

  • Edward

    Des wrote: “Repeated claims based on zero evidence on voter fraud

    Project Veritas has video of the NYC Democratic Election Commissioner explaining how they get people voting at multiple precincts. This is direct evidence, an actual admission, of voter fraud from the mouth of a Democratic Party bigwig. Despite the denials from Registrars of voters, we now know that fraud does happen in a systematic way as perpetrated by the Democratic Party.

    As for global warming/climate change, we know that the Little Ice Age occurred and has been ending without human help. We also know that the Sahara Desert has been moving northward for millennia without human input. Climates change. We cannot stop it no matter what some politician turned carbon credit salesman may tell you.

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