“The truth is that the Koran directly compels Muslims to commit violent acts against disbelievers.”
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
There need not be any “racism” or religious guilt be involved with judging Islam, the fact is that Islam has an inherent duality to it that is fundamentally incompatible with Western thought. Western beliefs specifically recognize that government and religion are to be separate, I site the Constitution as an example.
And anyone so immersed in the intellectual analysis attempting to justify the embracing of something that is fundamentally counter to their existence should be labeled as an ideologue or a fool, probably both.
Recognize reality because if you refuse to or are unable to your reality will cease to exist.
Use the number of American Muslims who approve of suicide bombs in relation to the global Muslim population and we get about 100 million people who want to use violence against civilians for their religion. In Muslim dominant countries, the number is probably higher than here in the states.
It is a significant problem and it isn’t just people who support suicide attacks but the culture that largely supports the ideology of AQ just not the violence associated with it.
Read this on another blog but we shouldn’t be supporting “moderates” who have an Islamist ideology but don’t like the violence of terrorist attacks, we should be supporting the extremists on the opposite side of the spectrum as the Islamists.
Hard to expect people to stand up to the Islamists when they get killed or brutally tortured (not water boarding) for speaking out. The group that has killed the most Muslims since 9/11 is Islam.
The fact is most Muslims don’t take those verses in the Quran literally, just like Jews or Christians tend to overlook the many stories in the Bible of God ordering people to slay entire populations of men, women , and children. The ones that do are like the ones who use the Bible or another holy book as an excuse to kill people. Its also a fact you are far more likely to die at the hands of a drunk driver, or a member of your own family, then at the hands of a deranged religious extremist.
That said, it would be folly to say Islamic extremism is not a problem. But those who want to bash the entire religion because of extremists amongst them is misguided.
It appears from your comment that you didn’t read the article very closely. It gave a detailed analysis of the religion itself and how Islam’s own scholars interpret the words of the Koran so that a more violent and radical interpretation is the natural result. This is not something to be taken lightly.
It is also far different from how the Bible is interpreted by either Judaism or Christianity. The difference is real, and must be recognized if we are to deal with this problem honestly and successfully.
There is a fundamental problem, you are applying your, I will assume Christian / Western intellectual / morality point of view to an issue that lives by an Eastern / Islamic set of rules. You are playing a game where you are choosing to be ignorant of all of the rules.
The Koran is a handbook that informs both religion and governance, that is a foundational problem. The Bible sets out a set of “rules” and gives you a choice to participate or not, you choose. It is not that way in Islam, you have not got a choice as it is laid out in the handbook.
That system must destroy and take over any other system, that is their rule, peoples desire to not understand that because it is hard and may be offensive is not acceptable. Not everyone loves you, me or how we live.
I see your use of the term “misguided” as being naive as it relates to the issue, there is no reconciling the two, it is what it is. People are trying to intellectually make the reality of the fundamental difference not exist.
Scholars of any religion are not monolithic. Just like there are various degrees of orthodoxy in any religion, there are also various degrees in Islam.
The article hardly merits close reading. It loses most of it credibility when its from the Washington Times, a very conservative newspaper founded by cultist Rev. Sun Myung Moon, who thought he was Jesus reincarnated. BTW, the Washington Times is SUBSIDIZED entirely by the church, since its lost money every year since its founding- which shows how little its taken seriously. Its a joke of a paper, founded by a family of religious whacko’s who still have links to it . For you to link to it as a reputable source of information on Islam, is pathetic.
‘The Koran is a handbook that informs both religion and governance, that is a foundational problem. The Bible sets out a set of “rules” and gives you a choice to participate or not, you choose. It is not that way in Islam, you have not got a choice as it is laid out in the handbook.’
I’m not seeing a whole lot of freedom in the Bibles choice of participate or burn in Hell forever, but thats me. But debating the finer points of which of the three Abrahamic religions is less nutty is not my battle. They ALL are nutty, IMHO.
The Bible sets out a set of “rules” or a belief system, you have a personal choice to accept its teachings or not. You will suffer no retribution on this plane of existence if you choose not to believe. What happens after that who knows, but its your free choice, Hell Fire or no Hell Fire.
If you are familiar with the different texts then you are fully aware of the inherent problems in attempting to reconcile their coexistence, you understand then when push comes to shove the one has no room for the other. EVER.
There is no long term intellectual accommodation here, I know it seems optimistic and civilized to think that way but it is dangerous and self delusional. A common mental illness in the West, we can’t help it we are by nature optimistic.
Now snap out of it!
I found this quote by H.A.R.Gibb interesting on the subject. People should be free to determine what they believe not commanded and controlled, which in the end is what formal religion is really all about.
“Mohammed’s system is rigid, positive, and emphatic. The rigidity, the special emphasis upon the compulsory performance of legal and religious duties, the demand for unquestioning obedience, can be explained largely as a reaction against the social and spiritual anarchy of Arabia. These Arabs, rebellious to all external control and devoid of self-discipline, must needs have [sic] the yoke fastened tightly upon their necks, or it would stand no chance of staying on at all. To ‘go Arab’, to sink back into the spiritual laxity of the tribesmen, was in Mohammed’s eyes backsliding into paganism, and he tried to keep his tribal converts as far as possible under his direct observation. There is a reality in the suggestion that the ceremonial bowings and prostrations in unison of the daily prayers were a means of physical as well as of spiritual discipline.” H.A.R. Gibb.
‘You will suffer no retribution on this plane of existence if you choose not to believe.’ – there is a long history of religious persecution and religious wars which bely your statement . I’m sure you are aware one of the reasons our Constitution specifically guaranteed religious freedom was the long and very bloody history of religious wars in Europe, which our founders they did not want to see repeated in America.
I do agree with you that the TEXTS are mutually incompatible, since ALL of them claim to be the final word of God. But most people, I think, wish to live in peace, and although they do not agree with what other religions teach, I think its well within the majority of human beings to co-exist. I realize that Islam is behind the west in terms of the education of most of its people. But to blame the religion itself is self defeating, since there are over a billion people who believe in it. Short of mass genocide, its going to be around a long time to come, just like all the other world religions will.
The danger obviously, is that a minority of extremists can still do massive damage, as 9-11 amply demonstrated.
‘Now snap out of it’ – I’m still waiting for the ‘educated’ USA to ‘snap out of’ the * creationist worldview. 47% of Americans still believe in the literal Biblical creation story. Its pretty hard to convince another culture of the irrationality of its beliefs, when we have our own problem with irrationality here. Lets convince our own loons first. Snap,snap!
Muslums are a cancer we should use radio active medicen to cure or treat them (BIGBADABOOM)
Oh here we go again bringing up something that happened a THOUSAND years ago to justify Islams action today.
Ignoring the fact the at the time Muslims did even worse.
The crusades were just a war fought by both sides over hundreds of years. The Muslims fought back just as hard and took just as much land from the west. They reached all the way into Spain in fact and held it for several hundred years. Muslims killed just as many Christians as the other way around.
The real jokes of the media are the New York Times, the Washington Post, the broadcast networks and the two leftwing cable networks, all of whom have engaged in active campaigns to 1) protect Barack Obama from all scandals and 2) to ignore truly important topics that should be igniting fierce and serious public debates. Yes, the Washington Times is owned by the Unification Church, but in contrast with the aforementioned media titans, its news coverage has been solid and reliable. If you doubt this, Thomas, please produce the in-depth coverage of the others on Fast and Furious and Benghazi, two monumental scandals that would have quickly resulted in the removal of a Republican president. There’s also the Pigford matter — heard of it? And the Gosnell trial, which has unearthed unspeakable horrors. You are what the Communist Party used to call a “useful idiot.” You know nothing of what this administration is doing, yet you argue in its favor. That’s what keeps them in power, and that’s what is destroying America.
In the majority of todays world you can personally choose what religion you believe is true, we do not exist in a time where you have no choice, except if you are follower of Islam in many, many places on the planet.
When I said “snap out of it” I respectfully meant that specifically to you and anyone else who insists on a reality that does not exist. And don’t get me wrong I believe that we can manifest what it is that we can conceive but on this particular subject their is no substantive hope to manifest what it is that you imagine. Which does not mean that we can not live and trade and intermingle, but our Western system and the Middle eastern system are not compatible, one must destroy the other as a function of the words written in the text. It is commanded.
And yes the Constitution was written to specifically keep these things separate and now people who do not understand why it was written that way seek to reinvent something that needs no reinterpretation.
I personally think you are here to just bust Zimmermans balls, do you have a thing for him?
I know its hard for nutters to concentrate on the topic at hand, which is the Quran and Islam. But just this once, I will go off topic, and pick just one of your grievances, liberal news media ignoring Fast and Furious. These are all links from SOME of the liberal news media coverage of Fast and Furious, chosen from the Wikipedia Article on it. I trust you can find your way to it, and look it up yourself. So take your ‘useful idiot’ rant and spew it at your survivalist buddies, while you count your ammo, or hoard your cans of beer and tuna fish, or whatever it is you do -someone other then me. I don’t have time for your nonsense.
Oh, BTW, your ‘solid and reliable Washington Times’ compared Fast and Furious to PEARL HARBOR, I kid you not.
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/history-purpose/2011/dec/7/parallels-between-fast-and-furious-and-pearl-harbo/
So the joke is on you.
“A gunrunning sting gone fatally wrong”
“Congress starting ATF “gunwalker scandal” probe”
“Attorney General Holder subpoenaed for documents in ATF Gunwalker Fast and Furious case”
Documents Highlight Bush-Era Incident Pre-Dating ‘Fast and Furious’
Sharyl Attkisson, “Gun shop owner expressed concerns early on in “gunwalker” scandal”
Sharyl Attkinsson, “Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF”
“House holds Holder in contempt”
House Finds Holder in Contempt Over Inquiry on Guns
“Committee Votes Attorney General Eric Holder in Contempt of Congress After Obama Asserts Executive Privilege”
“What Led to ‘Project Gunwalker’?”
“Informant: ATF “gun walking” went on for years”
“Earlier ATF gun operation ‘Wide Receiver’ used same tactics as ‘Fast and Furious’”
“Documents point to ATF “gun running” since 2008″
“Department of Justice Cartel Strategy, October 2009”
“Gun Inquiry Costs Officials Their Jobs”
“Facts Sought on D.E.A. Informants”
Sharyl Attkisson, “Second gun used in ICE agent murder linked to ATF undercover operation”
“Pistol purchased by ATF agent found at alleged cartel crime scene in Mexico”
“Fast and Furious gun found at Mexican crime scene”
“Attorney General Eric Holder grilled by Congress on ATF “Gunwalker” controversy”
“ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010”
“Gunwalker scandal: ATF director out of top job”
Terry Frieden, Top Justice official expresses regret for failure to warn on ‘gun walking’
“Eric Holder calls “gunwalking” unacceptable, regrets tactic as part of Fast and Furious”
Sharyl Attkisson, “Documents: ATF used “Fast and Furious” to make the case for gun regulations”
“Report by House Democrats Absolves Administration in Gun Trafficking Case”
“Homeland Security IG Investigates Fast and Furious”
Laurie Kellman (AP), “Mukasey confirmed as attorney general”
NRA sends Democrats a message over Holder contempt vote
Hoyer Challenges Issa to Show E-Mails
“Deputy Director William Hoover resigns from ATF in wake of critical report”
Charlie Savage, “Guns Inquiry Urges Action Against 14 in Justice Dept.”
“Heads roll after Fast and Furious investigation”
“Feds unveil indictments in Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry’s slaying”
I was just talking this afternoon to a guy that worked for a major financial company and his territory was the mid east, all of the county’s we are discussing and I told him what Thomas’s positions were. He just shook his head and said “he really has no idea what the hell he is talking about”. He spent years there traveling and doing business.
There is a problem with Islam, within itself, and a second conflict with Western Enlightenment values. I spent 7 months in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, serving in the US Navy, and before going over there, we were given a brief about the situation in the country, which I learned is really one of several proxy wars being fought between Saudi Arabian fundamentalist Wahhabism and radical Iranian Shia fundamentalism. You see the conflict clearly in Syria where Al-Qaeda (funded by Sunnis) is fighting the Assad Alawite (Shia) government. These are the two major radical sects within Islam battling for Iran’s superpower status in the Middle East. The same problem has been going on since the Russians had to pull out of Afghanistan in 1989 (1992). Same issue we saw in Libya. We’ll see this spill over into Lebanon eventually.
Whatever your beliefs, it is clear that the origins of Islam are bathed in the blood of conquest by the sword, whether in medieval Spain, north Africa, or the far east. It is obvious to those educated and honest observers there is a fundamental problem with the spread of this religion, by the sword. This ‘problem’ suggests a solution is needed – possibly internal reform. The Christian West has undergone successive reforms within and without the Church at Rome. In doing so, it has gradually become more ‘enlightened’ and tolerant of other religions and cultures. I don’t think anyone can argue with me that Islamic countries like the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan or Iran are equally tolerant of western cultures and ideas, notably due to the fact that state policy is determined by religious policy.
Thus, my hypothesis is that Islam needs reform. Until Muslims acknowledge that and work toward that, we (non-Muslims) are just observers on the outside. Once Islam reforms it may be possible to consider the peaceful co-existence with the West. Until that time, I’d like to see the US military and government stay out of their regional conflict and let these two powers (Iran and Saudi Arabia) settle their own affairs. Wouldn’t that be refreshing for a change?
T. E. Lawrence had a hell of a time just getting these tribes and countries to agree on anything, including their own independence, much less political policy, and religious doctrine.
I think you need to reread what I actually wrote. You seem to have missed these two statements:
“…it would be folly to say Islamic extremism is not a problem.”
“The danger obviously, is that a minority of extremists can still do massive damage, as 9-11 amply demonstrated.”
Also my point about the Constitution and religious freedom was not about the Crusades, which may or may not have influenced the founders thinking on this, but the European Religious wars, fought repeatedly between Catholics and Protestants, and the persecutions of Jews, which definitely did influence their thinking. That is what they did not want to see repeated.
As to ‘justifying Islam’ my point is this- don’t blame the many for the crimes of the few. Its that simple.
I think you just gave the best overview of the whole problem yet. Well said. Not sure if everyone will agree with your conclusions.
I am amazed that you agree with his conclusions. You seem to now concur with the general opinion being expressed on the subject in this conversation string.
Don’t hold your breath anytime in this millenia for this required reform to take place, it is forbidden!
On that note, I once read about one of our ambassadors , newly arrived, being briefed on the crazy politics of the mideast. He was told: ‘You now know the most you will ever know about the region…its all downhill from here.’
http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
http://quran.com/
http://www.quranexplorer.com/search/
Thomas needs to do a little reading. And he must remember that The Quran was written in ancient Arabic. because is was originally a spoken book. He also needs to remember that the first part of the Quran is actually the Christian old testament or the Hebrew Torah.
And don’t forget to read the Hideth also.
There are almost a dozen different ways to interpret Ancient Arabic into modern Arabic. It was not a set or well written language at the time.
– again: “…it would be folly to say Islamic extremism is not a problem.”
“The danger obviously, is that a minority of extremists can still do massive damage, as 9-11 amply demonstrated.”
You will note that he referred specifically to RADICAL movements within Islam being a problem …. that is not to say that all of Islam embraces militancy. The vast majority are moderate, especially in the US and Europe.
You will also note that my original post was about the article claiming the Quran orders Muslims to kill and beat infidels. The fact is those verses are routinely ignored by most Muslims. If that were not the case, every Muslim alive would be out there murdering people. Its nonsense.
On a side note, its Saudi Arabia that is mostly responsible for the spread of Wahhabism an extremely conservative school of Sunni Islam , spending over 87 BILLION dollars abroad just for that purpose. Where did the money come from? Oil revenue.
“its nonsense” is nonsense.
When push comes to shove a Muslim must choose Islam, that is fundamentally incompatible with the Constitution.
Islam exists closer to human DNA, the subjective and emotional type of DNA. The Constitution and Western thought exists at a more intellectual level which is based more in objectivity, although they are connected they are very, very different.
Ive already read the Quran, and the Old and New Testament of the Bible, so no need to patronize me. I have not read the Hadith, nor do I intend to. Three books on the Abrahamic god is enough, I think.
BTW, ALL the books began as spoken text, with written parts being added later. For example, the four gospels were based on oral tradition, while Paul’s letters obviously were written.
And no, the Torah, or Old testament is not contained within the Quran, which is exclusively the message of Allah to Mohammed, (and as a simple check of your own link at Quran.com will verify)
Perhaps you need to do a little reading.
The article contains provocative points I’d probably not make in public. Edwards presents several conclusions about Islam without supporting facts. But the article is in the ‘Communities, Politics’ section. Hardly a place where I’d take, on board as serious study, any content presented. Edwards makes several serious claims without detailed academic backup / references.
Here’s a zinger, ‘Muslims are instructed to do all that they can to facilitate this goal, including to kill and subjugate disbelievers…’.
Edwards does say, ‘America must understand that although a large portion of Muslims do not condone violence to spread Islam, many more than American leaders are comfortable recognizing, do. It is not just a ‘tiny minority.” Well said, most can agree. But most of article publicly slams Islam, as a whole, not the subset of radical terrorists. Edwards should have focused his efforts in that specific area of Islam, rather than cast all Muslims into the same intellectual mold.
I imagine Edwards will be watching his back for some time. But he has brought our attention to the fact, that the vast majority of terrorist attacks on military and civilian targets have been carried out by Muslim extremists. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html
The article is a symptom of one of the problems in modern America: journalists don’t do serious unbiased journalism. And I might add, employ more critical thinking.
JGL: Don’t use too broad a brush in painting Muslims as choosing Islam over the Constitution… and don’t assume Islam automatically means radicalism or militanty or extremism. After all, an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian will , ‘when push comes to shove’-choose the Bible and Christianity over the Constitution. President Kennedy had to convince the electorate his allegiance would not be to the Pope, but to the Constitution.
You make a good point- It masquerades as journalism, but really- its an opinion piece. Because of that,its not held to the same standard of journalism that goes with regular news. So don’t expect it to be backed up by little things like facts. The WSJ regularly employs the same tactic when disparaging global warming- it puts it in the opinion section, where it uses the same format as news to express opinion. Its a way of saying what they cannot get away with as journalists, and so becomes a kind of shoddy form of journalism. Its the same tactic used by Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity, when they discuss things in a vaguely journalistic way, but when questioned on the facts, say- I’m not a journalist, I’m a commentator’.
It would have been much more appropriate to simply concentrate on the radical subset, such as the Wahhabi movement. He could even have said ‘rising’ radicalization, and I’d have no problem with that. But he crossed an ethical line he should not have, lumping all Muslims together, cherry picking his ‘facts’ as he went- and linking most of his info on Islam to a website run by christian evengelicals, who are not going to be the most unbiased source.
Shame.
It really appears to me that you will do anything to avoid the elephant in the room. Islam is the only religion in the world today that presents a danger to anyone. This article was trying to illustrate some of the reasons why. Yet you go out of your way to dismiss it blindly, without considering the possibility that it might contain some truth.
Note too that I have read this identical analysis of Islam and its interpretation of the Koran from multiple sources. It is not cherry-picking data. It is how the religion is interpreted by most of its scholars. In fact, the Wahhabi movement subscribes to it, and that movement is not a fringe movement in the slightest.
Moreover, the point here was never that all Muslims believe this but that the basics of the religion encourage violence against disbelievers. And for the past twenty years we have had a continual rain of proof that this is true. Since 9/11 you can count the number of terrorist attacks by those who are not Islamic probably on one hand. Meanwhile, more than 20,000 violent attacks by Islamic terrorists have occurred.
Why are you so afraid to face this threat?
Your equal weighting of the two religions IMO is incorrect, is a willfull (hopefull? Optimistic?) misinterpretation and in the long term dangerous. Part of what makes America and its Constitution unique on the planet is that it clearly defines and separates the two, governace and religion. The Koran can never separate the two. Never.
And that is the key stone in this argument. America must always guard its precious and unique founding documents from anything that would naturally undermine it. The duality of Islam is a threat, I wish them well but I will not insist that the two be merged and in the end come out with an Islam dominated America. I again point out, Islam is not only a religion, Islam informs governance and they are both linked and can not be unlinked as per the Koran.
Your willingness to blurr the lines troubles me, it is a narrative that is being insisted on by this administration and I do not believe it is in our long term interest.
While I respect your argument, you have offered me nothing of substance with which I could reasonably adjust my point of view. I will not commit treason just to appear reasonable or politically correct.
Third time:
– again: “…it would be folly to say Islamic extremism is not a problem.”
“The danger obviously, is that a minority of extremists can still do massive damage, as 9-11 amply demonstrated.”
Is English your second lanquage?
What you apparently refuse to recognize is that Islamic extremism is not a small minority in the religion. It is a growing problem, consuming larger and larger percentages of the Muslim community, and wielding greater power with every day that passes.
Instead, you want us to believe that this extremism is merely an Islamic fringe group, and that other than that, Islam is a religion of peace and good will.
Now, my interpretation of all your posts on this subject might be wrong, but if it is and you do see the growing threat of Islamic extremism for what it is, then why are you so intent on arguing with everyone about it? Why are you so offended when someone points it out?
‘the basics of the religion encourage violence against disbelievers’
Lets face it, the Abrahamic god does have anger issues. Here are some from the Old Testament:
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
I could go on like this for a VERY LONG TIME, but you get the idea.
Now as far as your list of ‘over 20,000’ killed in the name of Islam. Its not too hard to make a similar list of civilian deaths at the hands of our troops, or accidnental drone strikes, and arrive at a similar number.
The point is its one thing to say ‘radical wahhabism is growing and a threat’, its quite another to say Islam COMMANDS them to kill us. You CHOSE the second approach. Its irresponsible.
Thomas, I haven’t verified the Biblical quotes you cite, where you condemn Christianity, but I can say that Jesus revealed his gospels ‘the good news’, where the Israelites were no longer required to live under the old covenant Moses proclaimed from God in the Old Testament. Christians, for example no longer have to sacrifice animals on altars to keep the covenant with God.
But, your response still begs the question, if Islam and Christianity are equally bad, as you claim, then why are Christians not committing as many acts of terrorism as adherents of the Islamic faith do?
As a Christian, I understand God as a manifold wisdom and power beyond time and space and that the laws of the Old Testament and visions of its prophets were fulfilled by Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross. We see in the Old Testament that God can be angry but merciful. So, God is a difficult power to understand. The point of Christianity is to love others and God as you love yourself. I have great difficulty getting an equally noble and righteous sense of the same message from Mohammed’s revelations and Islam.
Atheists like to focus on the Old Testament, which overlooks who Jesus was and what he said and did.
Also, being a member of the military, I object to your moral simplification that deaths resulting from military action somehow justify the terrorist victims over the world, especially non-unformed civilians.
In conclusion, what other religions are producing so much terror and death in the world today?
Renee:
Lets look at Jesus’s own words:
1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing Christianity. Im pointing out that others have done so, by using the TEXT itself. That is what is happening now with Islam. Edwards and Roberts use the text as a way to say ‘Look how evil the religion is’… But the Bible is filled with the SAME type of texts.
Christians, and Jews IGNORE THEM. So do a majority of Muslims ignore the equally vicious texts in their Holy Book.
And I will repeat, ad nauseam: Islamic extremism is a problem. Is it growing? It depends on who you ask. Our own military claims Al Quaeda has been decimated, and its influence is waning.
And no, I do not ‘justify’ acts idf terrorism- its wrong, has always been wrong, will always be wrong.
Renee- I have one other point to make. You ask, what other RELIGION is producing terror and death in the world today? RELIGION does not produce terror and death. HUMAN BEINGS produce terror and death. Lets not forget the facts, and put the blame squarely where it belongs.
You left out the Greatest Commandment. Go look that one up.
You really should read the entire first 4 books of the New Testament. You’ve chosen passages that support you claims but leave out what Jesus said about living by the sword and judging others. And you’ve chosen to not engage the importance of the new covenant Jesus represents. Are you suggesting that Jesus demanded we continue to offer burnt offerings to Jehovah? If so, your knowledge and analysis of Christianity is cursory and flawed.
You choose to put Christiainity on trial but not apply the same standard to Islam, when a higher standard of scrutiny is warranted.
I am glad to see you’ve repeatedly admitted Islamic extremism is a problem. But to say Christianity is a problem because it has ‘extreme’ texts STILL BEGS THE QUESTION: why are only Muslims committing terrorist acts globally, while Christians are not?
Tell that to the Muslim extremists please. They are killing human beings.
I have already posted that I have read the Quran, and both the Old and New Testament. I have read, by far, the New Testament, many times more then the others, probably at least a dozen times. So I am well aware of the arguments on this point. The fact is that what Jesus said and what he meant often contradict each other, and it is up to believers to sort it out. This is what led to divisions in the Church, so don’t pretend its all clear cut, because its not.
You also say a ‘higher standard’ of scrutiny is warranted for Islam then christianity. Why? Why not the SAME scrutiny?
Begging the question- why are ‘only’ Muslims committing terrorist acts globally, while Christians are not. Its a fair question. What does your military training teach you? Is terrorism the strategy of the weak or the strong? You tell me.
Oh, the greatest commandment: Love the lord thy god with all your heart with all your mind, and with all your strength. And the second is like the first: Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Definitely one of his best sayings. I may not have it exactly right, as its from memory.
He does not get it, he thinks that because he can match verse for verse, Islam and Christianity that they are the same and of equal weight.
He will never “see” the point, he is a polite progressive and believes that man, because he is religious that the end result must be positive for all. This is delusion.
But wear a uniform, and do it for ‘God and country’,and its perfectly fine to kill human beings.
Why not the same scrutiny? Because Christians are not making bombs and blowing up civilians and flying jumbo jets full of civilians into office buildings. Christians are not blowing up US Navy ships like the USS Cole. The Christians are not hijacking planes, murdering Navy divers, and dumping them on the jetway (RIP SW2 Stetham).
I’m not pretending anything. Jesus’s Greatest Commadment is simple if you’ve really read and took to heart his gospels. And yet it’s impossible to live to the standard. But we must try. You have to look at the Old Testament Law through the ‘lense’ of what Jesus said was the Greatest Commadment.
It is true there is not universal agreement on everything he said, but Jesus’s gospel and his followers are not engaging in terrorism.
The Muslim extremists are resorting to terrorism because American military power cannot be defeated ‘straight on’. If these people could, they would defeat our military and force their way of belief on us. The concept is assymetrical warfare. Based upon this, our enemies are weak because they resort to terror and target civilians and our way of life. These ideas are coming from extremists, from certain radical teachers of Islam, from mosques. The Taliban are a great example.
I submit: Islam and Christianity aren’t producing the same outcomes, nor are they to be given equal consideration.
No, as I have already stated that I’m still waiting for us to ‘snap’ out of our creationsim delusion brought upon us by our very own religious nuts. At least they are not killing people, outside shooting an abortion provider or two. The vast majority of our religious nutjobs are thankfully peaceable. So, no, I realize Muslim nutjobs are killing those they disagree with- like our very own religious nuts did in the not so distant past. So hopefully, one day they will live in a country where the federal government is strong enough to keep them at bay, like in our country. But to do that, they must establish SECULAR govt, which took the west hundreds of years.
In short, I do not see ‘religion’ as any type of solution. Far from it.
Jesus’s gospel and his followers are not engaging in terrorism.
But they do engage in warfare. In fact there is a very long history of Jesus’s followers engaging in warfare, most of it the strong preying upon the weak, as any cursurary examination of European and US History will show. So I do not think we are in a great position of moral superiority here. It is a fact that God and religion have been thruout history really great excuses for people to kill each other. Do you really need examples? Do you really think that in world history, the history of Christian nations is one of light , love and goodness to all men? You tell me
Thomas, it’s obvious your issue is with Christianity, while choosing to ignore Islamic radicalism. I / we don’t need you to produce biblical texts and lists of what you morally equate to terrorism, which is not the same as warfare. I suggest you look up the definition of terrorism and warfare and look for distinctions.
You appear to take a hard headed refusal to focus on the issue originally posted here: Islamic terrorism.
This conversation is becoming blurred, Christians can be as murderous, deceitful and treacherous as any other, the issue is the dual nature of Islam. Islam exists in religion and in governance, they are one and can not be separated.
That is the issue!
All of this other stuff is just religious noise. Our form of government specifically bans such arrangements, for a reason.
WE ARE DIFFERENT !
Oil and water, light and dark, up and down, the two can not be as one!
Agreed, thank God we’re not forced to live under an Islamic republic. We have freedoms to speak and live as we wish (not wear burkhas, have our hands chopped off for petty theft, listen to music, and refuse our girls education). Agreed, Thomas has failed to blur the issue as a Christian one. The problem remains Islamic extremism.
Like a liberal progressive friend of mine, Thomas has desperately tried to morally equate wars in Europe and America with terrorism, but failed. His knowledge of the Biblical scriptures is intentionally flawed. It is interesting he spent so much time trying to make Christians out to be the same as the radicals in Islam, based upon tortuous comparison of texts between the Koran and the Bible and making moral equivalents of European wars and Islamic terrorism. An obvious lack of critical thinking and an example of false analogy fallacy.
This approach is the only way progressives can justify their worldview that the Western tradition is evil and wrong and that we need to lift up corrupt and failed ideologies to make them equal to our own values, in the name of ‘fairness’.
To say that honorable military members are the same as terrorists because they put on a uniform and kill the enemies of the United States is a fool’s statement. I, and many of my brothers and sisters wear the uniform with pride and treat all with fairness. And we military members with honor don’t hurt people with malice.
Yes, we are different, and we make mistakes, and we are not the same as the terrorists.
No, my issue is with the irrational followers of religion, who see themselves as pure and holy, and the other reliigions or belief systems as evil . I have aknowledged Islamic radicalism- extremism is a problem so many times its getting tiresome.
And I have addressed Islamic terrorism: “The danger obviously, is that a minority of extremists can still do massive damage, as 9-11 amply demonstrated.”
Like Robert before you, I know have to ask you- Is English your second lanquage?
And I point out that terrorism is like warfare in it use of violence and force in furtherance of politacal objectives. Where it differs is that technically, war is carried out between states, and is therefore ‘lawful’. Which is great news for all the Hitlers of the world. But yes, I am missing how say Hitlers invasion of Poland , or killing of 6 million Jews, is somehow less evil then Islamic terrorism.
?
I acknowledged your acknowledgement of the Islamic terror problem. Why are you still arguing?
Oh, this for starters:Thomas has desperately tried to morally equate wars in Europe and America with terrorism.
So answer my question- how is the Nazi invasion of Poland, or France, or the killing of 6 million Jews, less evil then Islamic terrorism, just because its ‘warfare’ and is carried out by soldiers in uniform?
Thomas, you just equated Hitler with those that defeated him. Have you no shame?
If someone thinks of themselves as pure and holy, that’s an individual problem.
You also equate war with specific targets with Jihad again all non Islamic targets.
Picking anecdotes does not refute clear trends.
Islam engages in war and deceit. Pointing to other wars and deceits is not a refutation of that. Islam creates radicals that kill on a scale not seen in other religions and to try to equate it to others with anecdotes or the dark ages is disingenuous at the very, very least.
Yes, people have done bad things in the name of christianity… on the fringe.
Islam does bad things that are endorsed by a large majority.
Arguments of moral equivalence are repugnant, false and in that they allow the threat to continue to manifest itself, evil.
Be better than that Thomas. Build on your understanding of truth. Quit making an argument that requires you to ignore the elephant in the room. Don’t expect us to.
The latest lie is that Jihad is about introspection. It isn’t. Christianity is.
No, I equated those who fought as soldiers for Hitler, with those who fight as Islamic ‘jihadists’, to use your term- and asked- how is are the soldiers less evil then the jihadists? Is it because, to use your words, that Hitler had a specific goal, whereas the jihadists are fighing non-Islamic targets? Is that really your argument?
You say Islam engages in war and deceit, but the fact that others do too does not refute the first. Wow, speaking of disingenuous, its amazing how the others get the free pass, but its ‘wrong’ to give Islam a free pass, even though I never said so.
Your other statements are equally tired and lame. What a bore.
But way to go, sticking up for christianity. Onward Christian soldier!
Oh yeah, while Im at it. To your point ‘ Islam creates radicals that kill on a scale not seen in other religions and to try to equate it to others with anecdotes or the dark ages is disingenuous at the very, very least..’
You are right, I will refrain from ‘anecdotes’. I direct your attention to the list of war dead from conflicts thru-out history. It has WW2, with 42 to 72 million dead, clocking in at number one. For religious wars, the Thirty year war, a conflict between Catholics and Protestants racked up from 3- 11,500,000 dead. The unique ability of Islam to manufacture marauding hoards of killers, somehow did not make the list. Too bad facts get in the way of your story so badly. But there it is.
You can rant and rage at this page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll
What exactly are you arguing about? What is your point? You surely aren’t proposing that we should ignore evil today because greater evils once existed in the past.
No one ever made the accusation that Islam is the worst evil ever on the face of the Earth. However, it does appear to harbor and encourage the worst evils in the world today, a fact that must be recognized if we are deal with it.
Maybe you just like to argue. I am increasingly beginning to think so.
Ok, Robert, Im convinced. Islam encourages the ‘worst evil in the world today’. Its PURE EVIL. Now what is your solution to ‘dealing’ as you put it, with the Muslim problem? You tell me.
As Sun Tzu stated, you must know your enemy in order to defeat him. By recognizing that Islam teaches pure EVIL by today’s standards of decency, in the name of being a peaceful religion (taqiyya), is the first important step in your being on the right side of history.
Hey. If you spent thousands of years mucking around in all that sand, you’d be grumpy too.
I was referring to Bob, living in Tucson.
For some reason the Web page formatting wouldn’t allow me to respond directly to your lunacy above, so I’ll do it from here. It doesn’t surprise me that you would resort to name-calling and stereotyping. That’s the liberal method. I’ll ignore it all because it’s so pitiful and stick to the points at hand: 1) It was you who brought up the topic of The Washington Times, calling it a joke. I responded to it. And BTW, that column you linked to about Fast and Furious was reasoned and methodical. You might object to the Pearl Harbor analogy, but the point of a mortal attack on an unprepared nation was, unfortunately, true. 2) As to the articles you cited from your Wiki search, other than Sharyl Attkisson, no one in the MSM has been dogging this story — and she’s had to fight for her coverage with the powers that be at CBS. Perhaps I should have made clear the dearth of headlines about a story that should be generating headlines. The point is that the lockstep media have been ignoring and downplaying what should be the major stories of the day. As an example, there’s a new disclosure — today — that the Saudis warned the Department of Homeland Security last year about the elder Boston Bomber. They did it in writing, they warned about him by name, and they warned about a bombing attempt in a major city. How did they know? Because they were tracking al-Qaeda activities in Yemen, meaning they linked him to al-Qaeda.
You know, Thomas, you strike me as someone who would try to turn off a gas burner in a house that’s on fire. You’re stubbornly sticking to minutiae and PC points when the country is under attack from without and within. From without via our southern border and by radical Islamists, and from within by a president who swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution but has proceeded to do everything he can to destroy it. The way things are going, who knows? You might be wishing you had hoarded some ammo yourself.
You would not like my answer. You would argue with me about it, endlessly.
However, to give you a hint, you might want to read Winston Churchill’s history of World War II.
Understanding something does not always indicate the need for a “solution”. Thomas’s drive to “solve the problem” is putting the cart before the horse, first the issue must be understood in an objective way, after that comes potential solutions if possible. And solutions may be hampered by the particular time that the analysis is undertaken.
For example, the founders understood as evidenced by the document that they wrote that slavery could not continue into the future. They understood that intellectually but knew that it could not be accomplished at the time of the writing of the Constitution.
The key to properly understanding any issue, especially this one, is to as best as possible get the sequence right plus objectivity. This need for a “solution” is driven by the concept of social justice. Or as our president likes to continuously reinforce “because it is the right thing to do”, the problem with that kind of thinking is that it is immersed in emotional subjectivity. By who’s standard is this “solution” to be crafted? Our Constitution and our law is based in objectivity not subjectivity.
This is a false logic issue and can only lead to the destruction of the Constitution and that in the end is what must be properly understood because that is the goal of the progressive. The Constitution can be the source of its own destruction if this false logic is followed.
And you can read Gibbon’s Six Volume Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Good stuff:
According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions in large part due to the gradual loss of civic virtue among its citizens.[9] They had become weak, outsourcing their duties to defend their Empire to barbarian mercenaries, who then became so numerous and ingrained that they were able to take over the Empire. Romans, he believed, had become effeminate, unwilling to live a tougher, “manly” military lifestyle. In addition, Gibbon argued that Christianity created a belief that a better life existed after death, which fostered an indifference to the present among Roman citizens, thus sapping their desire to sacrifice for the Empire. He also believed its comparative pacifism tended to hamper the traditional Roman martial spirit. Finally, like other Enlightenment thinkers, Gibbon held in contempt the Middle Ages as a priest-ridden, superstitious, dark age. It was not until his own age of reason and rational thought, it was believed, that human history could resume its progress.[10]
OK, jwing, got it. Islam is Pure Evil. We are all convinced. Now what?
I’ve read Gibbon, as did all the founding fathers. They generally agreed with him, for what I think were good reasons.
And I would generally say that the Enlightenment was exactly that, a period when reason and rational thought dominated human intellectualism. The consequences have been good for humanity and civilization. (And please don’t argue by bringing up the violence of that time period. It is legacy of that time that counts, the idea of rational governance, freedom, and tolerance.)
Thomas, thank for the suggestion, but you still skirt the foundation of this particular issue.
I once had a cat that my father did not like, the cat repaid my fathers dislike with crapping on his pillow. One day my father chased the cat and the cat ran and “hid” under an ottoman.
Unfortunately for the cat he only chose to hide his head and thought he could not be seen. My father swatted the cat with a news paper and then encouraged him out the window.
Is it possible that some people have their heads under an ottoman?
Thomas, in answer to your “Now what?”, the response is not very different from how one deals with an alcoholic or someone with suicidal ideations. I personally have know several people of the muslim faith background and they have been stellar. Our problem is with the ideology mongers who teach hate and violence in those supposedly religious mosques and madrassas. The problem is the abuse of indocrinating the young and pliable. It’s not the people…it is the teachings.
Islam, as it is currently constructed, is less a religion and more a cult-like political idealogy. This is what needs to change.
The Old Testament also condones slavery, polygamy, wife-beating and a host of other outrages. The New Testament was meant to supersede it with the message of Christ. For many years this went imperfectly, given the burning of the Alexandria Library by (St.) Cyril, the attempted destruction of the Greek classics (rescued and preserved by the Moors of Spain), and the Inquisition, for examples. Christianity at the moment, however, has evolved into a diverse and peaceful religion — and before you start hurling invectives, Thomas, know that I am a lapsed Catholic and a non-believer. Islam, for many years, had settled into peacefulness, though tribal warfare persisted throughout. Human history if fascinating and heartbreaking, but what we are dealing with at the moment is real and in the present, and it can be boiled down to a couple of simple phrases. If radical Islamists stopped doing what they were doing, we would leave them alone and in peace. If we stopped our efforts to resist them, they would continue their Jihad against us with the intent on conquering us and re-establishing the Caliphate, with Sharia law for all. You can spout PC about Islam’s intrinsically peaceful nature all you want, but it won’t remove the fact that Islamists are in charge at the moment, to the point where many more Muslims are killed by Islamists than by anyone else. When the majority of Muslims rise up and fight back against the carnage and tyranny, we can begin to think about peaceful coexistence again. But not until.
“In Mid-February, TheBlaze published a story about Anjem Choudary, a famous British Muslim who preaches that England (and all of the world) should convert to Islam and install Shari’a Law as the law of the land. That story also featured a key bit of advice from the cleric telling Muslims that they should use welfare as a “jihad seeker’s allowance.”
Enough said.
Let this be the final comment on this particular subject, we are financing our own destruction.
Its actually brilliant in a strategic sense.
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