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	Comments on: NASA&#8217;s political and corrupt safety panel	</title>
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	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Jeffrey L Breuer		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1083419</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffrey L Breuer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1083419</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In addition to the safety of SpaceX&#039;s load -n-go propellent policy is the cost savings of fuel not loaded if the launch is cancelled, especially if there is a weather hold on the launch window.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to the safety of SpaceX&#8217;s load -n-go propellent policy is the cost savings of fuel not loaded if the launch is cancelled, especially if there is a weather hold on the launch window.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Eagleson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064129</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2019 03:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064129</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Excellent summary of the career hanky-twisters at ASAP.

Minor quibble: the carbon fiber wrappings on the F9&#039;s COPV helium bottles are not there for insulation but to add burst-resistance strength.

Finally, an observation about the risks of SpaceX&#039;s load-and-go propellant loading procedure done with astronauts aboard and its risks compared to the &quot;tried and true&quot; NASA way of propellant loading first, then putting the crew in.  In SpaceX&#039;s approach, the crew are inside and sealed up in a capsule that has escape rockets that will fire and pull the crew away in the event of any booster misadventure before propellant loading ever starts.  The only people at risk - and not at much risk - &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; the crew and they are all steely-eyed missile men who signed up for a risky job.  NASA&#039;s way requires extended unprotected presence of both crew and support personnel atop what is essentially a giant potential bomb.  Until the crew are completely sealed inside, they aren&#039;t safe.  Until the pad closeout crew is off the tower and well away from the pad, they aren&#039;t safe either.  If I was a closeout pad worker, I&#039;d be a lot happier to be working on a Falcon 9 than on an Atlas 5.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent summary of the career hanky-twisters at ASAP.</p>
<p>Minor quibble: the carbon fiber wrappings on the F9&#8217;s COPV helium bottles are not there for insulation but to add burst-resistance strength.</p>
<p>Finally, an observation about the risks of SpaceX&#8217;s load-and-go propellant loading procedure done with astronauts aboard and its risks compared to the &#8220;tried and true&#8221; NASA way of propellant loading first, then putting the crew in.  In SpaceX&#8217;s approach, the crew are inside and sealed up in a capsule that has escape rockets that will fire and pull the crew away in the event of any booster misadventure before propellant loading ever starts.  The only people at risk &#8211; and not at much risk &#8211; <i>are</i> the crew and they are all steely-eyed missile men who signed up for a risky job.  NASA&#8217;s way requires extended unprotected presence of both crew and support personnel atop what is essentially a giant potential bomb.  Until the crew are completely sealed inside, they aren&#8217;t safe.  Until the pad closeout crew is off the tower and well away from the pad, they aren&#8217;t safe either.  If I was a closeout pad worker, I&#8217;d be a lot happier to be working on a Falcon 9 than on an Atlas 5.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064124</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2019 00:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064124</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[(The &lt;i&gt;real &lt;/i&gt;Edward, this time)
wodun, 
Re: &quot;&lt;i&gt;Other issues for SLS/Orion include the possibility that the first unmanned test will fly without the ability to gather data about its systems. NASA has apparently decided that should an avionics box fail once the rocket has reached the launchpad, they will not roll things back to the assembly building to replace it because that will involve too much delay. ... NASA should aggressively research alternate means to collect the data onboard if the avionics box fails.&lt;/i&gt;&quot; 

After years and years of delays, another delay of a few days in order to repair equipment that monitors the parts of the test that are the entire purpose of the test would be just too much.  Suddenly, doing it right is less important than doing it on time.  

Why do a test right when you can do it on time by using proxy data to guess at the necessary data?  It isn&#039;t as though this was a manned program and actual human lives will rely upon these tests.  When I was verifying spacecraft, we had several possible methods, but this &quot;by guess and by gosh&quot; method is new to me.  Fortunately, this is the safety panel that is suggesting this method, so it must be safe for future crews.  Right?  

I&#039;m sure that ASAP would be more than willing to do the same for Boeing and SpaceX with their tests, right?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(The <i>real </i>Edward, this time)<br />
wodun,<br />
Re: &#8220;<i>Other issues for SLS/Orion include the possibility that the first unmanned test will fly without the ability to gather data about its systems. NASA has apparently decided that should an avionics box fail once the rocket has reached the launchpad, they will not roll things back to the assembly building to replace it because that will involve too much delay. &#8230; NASA should aggressively research alternate means to collect the data onboard if the avionics box fails.</i>&#8221; </p>
<p>After years and years of delays, another delay of a few days in order to repair equipment that monitors the parts of the test that are the entire purpose of the test would be just too much.  Suddenly, doing it right is less important than doing it on time.  </p>
<p>Why do a test right when you can do it on time by using proxy data to guess at the necessary data?  It isn&#8217;t as though this was a manned program and actual human lives will rely upon these tests.  When I was verifying spacecraft, we had several possible methods, but this &#8220;by guess and by gosh&#8221; method is new to me.  Fortunately, this is the safety panel that is suggesting this method, so it must be safe for future crews.  Right?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that ASAP would be more than willing to do the same for Boeing and SpaceX with their tests, right?</p>
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		<title>
		By: wodun		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064114</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wodun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064114</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;NASA has apparently decided that should an avionics box fail once the rocket has reached the launchpad, they will not roll things back to the assembly building to replace it because that will involve too much delay.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m dying.

Too long of a delay?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>NASA has apparently decided that should an avionics box fail once the rocket has reached the launchpad, they will not roll things back to the assembly building to replace it because that will involve too much delay.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m dying.</p>
<p>Too long of a delay?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward_2		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064085</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward_2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2019 08:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064085</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ooops. The above should have been by &quot;Edward_2&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops. The above should have been by &#8220;Edward_2&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064084</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2019 08:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064084</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Original &quot;Not Ready for Prime Time Players&quot; were the best.  The show had celebrity hosts and musical acts I heard of and loved.

Today, SNL is a waste of time and money.

Lorne Michaels has let SNL crater and is doing the same on the Late Night shows under his control.  I miss Johnny Carson and David Letterman (when he was on NBC - CBS destroyed Letterman).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Original &#8220;Not Ready for Prime Time Players&#8221; were the best.  The show had celebrity hosts and musical acts I heard of and loved.</p>
<p>Today, SNL is a waste of time and money.</p>
<p>Lorne Michaels has let SNL crater and is doing the same on the Late Night shows under his control.  I miss Johnny Carson and David Letterman (when he was on NBC &#8211; CBS destroyed Letterman).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Borgelt		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064079</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Borgelt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2019 03:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064079</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Get them NASA people away from that rocket and shoot it!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get them NASA people away from that rocket and shoot it!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Blair Ivey		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/nasas-political-and-corrupt-safety-panel/#comment-1064073</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blair Ivey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2019 22:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=56393#comment-1064073</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would say that this is a case of the good as enemy of the best, if &#039;good&#039; is defined as something that moves the process toward a goal, but this is really an illustration of incompetence at war with competence. The mediocre can&#039;t stand to be bested, especially if their worldview is that they *are* the best, however unrealistic that may be, and an outlook that has been fostered over decades of &#039;self-esteem&#039; indoctrination. 

Political processes and bureaucracies are necessary in human society; it&#039;s how large organizations, necessary for large undertakings, get stuff done. The danger is decadence, when the process becomes the goal. And that&#039;s what we have at NASA, and Western society in general. Based on the Pareto Rule (and my own experience), a small number of people have a clear vision and an idea how to achieve it, while everyone else seeks recursive machinations that consume lots of resources, but don&#039;t advance the process. Their hope is they can milk the organization long enough to retire, and hope that happens before the entire system collapses.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that this is a case of the good as enemy of the best, if &#8216;good&#8217; is defined as something that moves the process toward a goal, but this is really an illustration of incompetence at war with competence. The mediocre can&#8217;t stand to be bested, especially if their worldview is that they *are* the best, however unrealistic that may be, and an outlook that has been fostered over decades of &#8216;self-esteem&#8217; indoctrination. </p>
<p>Political processes and bureaucracies are necessary in human society; it&#8217;s how large organizations, necessary for large undertakings, get stuff done. The danger is decadence, when the process becomes the goal. And that&#8217;s what we have at NASA, and Western society in general. Based on the Pareto Rule (and my own experience), a small number of people have a clear vision and an idea how to achieve it, while everyone else seeks recursive machinations that consume lots of resources, but don&#8217;t advance the process. Their hope is they can milk the organization long enough to retire, and hope that happens before the entire system collapses.</p>
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