Where is Questioner when you need him to interpret these things for everyone?

Its too late now Vlad.

That might just be why I said:
“this isn’t a discussion about whether or not US *tanks* and tank crews are better than Russian *tanks* and tank crews,”

It is not just about tank crews.
M1 out classed the T-72.

Battle of 73 Easting.

M1s vs T72/T54 .
The 9 M1A1 tanks of Eagle Troop destroyed 28 Iraqi tanks, 16 personnel carriers and 30 trucks in 23 minutes with no American losses.
And that was just round one.

I am curious to read about the final assessments of the T80s.

I said “In a tank vs tank battle on average you lose a tank for each tank kill”
Average that across the two armies, this isn’t a discussion about whether or not US tanks and tank crews are better than Russian tanks and tank crews, it’s whether tanks are not providing the same return on investment as other systems that could replace them.

“The radar that Trophy uses is so low powered and short range that it can not be detected by anything longer than 500 meters away at best.”
That’s not a rational claim, radar like other EM radiation diminishes in intensity according to the inverse square law, it doesn’t suddenly become undetectable at 500 meters, and the nature of radar – it detects a reflected signal, means it’s as easily detected at several or many times the range that it can detect small objects. Which is brighter, the torch, or the reflection from the moth in the beam?

While you can make the argument that US tanks would suffer much lower loses if it had been the US military that had invaded Ukraine, I’d still bet that their loses to ATGW’s would be much higher than their loses to Ukraine tanks. If so that still means the advantage is with the ATGW’s over tanks in that scenario also.

Tanks are an obsolescent weapon in the same way battleships are, relying of armour and guns over sensors and missiles, adding better sensors and missiles doesn’t suddenly make a battleship the equal of the smaller, cheaper to operate surface warships we use today, it’s just cobbling on systems to defend something that’s generically dated.

“The Ukrainians are running . . . ” etc.
Not relevant to the discussion.

Think of a fancy up powered motion detector system, the whole radar portion of the system fits in your two hands.

I do not know were you got your one tank for one tank statistic but the last time US tanks fought Soviet tanks we lost more like 1 us tank damaged vs 30 enemy tanks destroyed.

The Ukrainians are running fully updated electronics on their own home built tanks. US targeting systems, German engines and transitions NATO standard ammo and canon., Full night vision.

The Ukrainian military has, since Crimea was stolen by Russia, been updating it equipment to NATO standards and training their personnel to the structure and tactics of the west.

Putin could not let this happen for any longer. Even if the Ukraine never joined NATO they would be able to fight like NATO. And this invasion by Russia proves why. Russia waited to long.

M1A3 are closer to 10 M USD, however, that is also because they do have all the fancy tech mentioned above. IR, Thermal reactive armor, turbine engine, crew remote operated weapon (CROW), etc. They also had active target tracking since version 1. I do not know enough to know which versions of Russian tanks have that feature.

Also, if you were not tracking, the USMC dropped M1s from it’s line up.

Not cheap, but justified, next up we have ATGW’s with decoys attached.

“Those missile systems your talking about that the infantry could be using are expensive. Far more expensive than a tank round. The cheaper systems like LAW and RPG’s are direct fire weapons and not top down weapons and thus need to be used much closer to the target.”
But once you figure in the price of the tank? If the modern tank costs $10,000,000 and carries 40 rounds each worth $6000 that’s a package costing $256,000 a round, about the same as that Javelin, the NLAW costs around $30,000 each and is top attack, effect out to 800m. In a tank vs tank battle on average you lose a tank for each tank kill, in a tank vs infantry armed Javelin battle or tank vs Infantry armed NLAW battle are the tanks going to eliminate 40 Javelin’s or 85 NLAW’s for each tank lost?

Look at Russia right now.

They have some of the best MBT’s in the world but can not afford to equip them with night vision and modern targeting systems.
Those missile systems your talking about that the infantry could be using are expensive. Far more expensive than a tank round. The cheaper systems like LAW and RPG’s are direct fire weapons and not top down weapons and thus need to be used much closer to the target.

I am counting mechanized infantry into infantry. Even with those nice Javelin missiles they take almost a minute to reload and are a two man system. They are just too heavy and large for one man to run with.

As for defeating the top down missiles.
Israel already has a system to do this. They use it on APC’s and helicopters now to stop RPG’s. And its cheap, small and light. It has a small weakness but that is worked around.

Then change the corporate vision and fire every young (or old) Millennial or irrational Liberal Leftist who demands America be destroyed who stands in your way of reinstalling actual free speech and a more objective philosophy back into the conversation.

Elon Musk now owns 73,486,938 shares of Twitter, roughly 9.3% of the stock.

True to a degree, but everyone has to answer eventually one way or another whether they be an autocrat or a Democrat. You keep your eyes on Putin he is “Unfettered”.

The Ying and the Yang of it all:

* I am big and powerful but move slowly, and I will crush you.

* I am small and fast and can make you bleed the death of a thousand cuts.

Putin for example is big and powerful but he is disorganized, slow and his men are not inspired. He needed for it all be over in a week. I heard a Russian Oligarch say that Putin expected the Ukrainians to welcome him and throw flowers as he invaded to save them from the Nazi’s. And that did not happen, apparently that upset him. Putin in the aggregate has outraged the world.

Ukraine on the other hand is small and has limited resources, but their people are fighting like hell for their freedom and their lives. The world loves the underdog, and that is without doubt the Ukrainians. And they are being very effective.

Makes a difference, ask the Vietnamize. There are costs to every move and counter move and who ever can hold on longer than the other usually wins.

“and carry more anti armor rounds than the infantry could.”
How about mechanized infantry?

Just because the infantry can do everything including low level air defense doesn’t mean they are as efficient, fast, effective, or even want to do every job a dedicated unit could do better faster and more effectively.

The battle ships original mission might be pretty much over(direct ship to ship combat) but that does not mean the ships can not be upgraded to cover other new missions.

Tanks are the same. No one wants a tank to tank battle to happen but when it does a tank is best at taking out another tank. They can do it faster and cheaper than aircraft and carry more anti armor rounds than the infantry could.

Aircraft can not take and hold the ground. Tanks can take the ground but not hold it. Infantry holds the ground in the end.

Robert Malone on Global Fascism:

https://twitter.com/Resist_05/status/1510186250757902337?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510186250757902337%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2022%2F04%2Fglobal-fascism-dr-malone-uses-plain-talk-break-world-economic-forums-globalist-agenda-video%2F

And where does the justification to think and take action in the real world in such terms come from?

There were 3 battalions in Mariupol, I don’t know what you base your claim of 60,000 men surrounded in Donbas on. Perhaps you could share your source.

“It is as if they have no military leadership at all.”
Ironic given that Russia appears not to have appointed a theater commander.

“It could be that the mad nazi Zelensky”
On what do you base your claim that Zelensky is a Nazi? Source please.

“Now Zelensky has arrested two of his generals as “traitors”..”
I understand that these generals had links to Russia’s FSB and had put their links to Russia above their allegiance to Ukraine. If so they are traitors and should have been arrested.

“Imagine that Ukraine in over 5 weeks only managed to make one single attack on Russian territory!”
As far as I know they have a 100% success rate in their attacks on Russia, could they have launched more attacks on Russian territory? Certainly, at this stage it’s not the priority.

“Ukraine started the war with more soldiers than the UK, France, Germany and Italy combined.”
In terms of active military, prior to the Russian attack Ukraine had 209k, France 203k, Germany 183k, Italy 165k and the UK 148k.

“In order to give easily fooled militarily completely uneducated westerners the impression on non-defeat,”
I and other sensible westerners are basing their assessment of the situation on the analysis of people with vastly more military experience and military seniority than you. General’s who’ve commanded real armies in real combat.

“And they have been mobilized since May last year.”
A fiction straight from the Kremlin, this time it’s one of their lies that they obviously don’t believe themselves. Ukraine didn’t mobilize until after the Russian invasion. Zelensky’s big mistake was believing Russia would not invade.

“Here is something which is hard for westerners to understand. Russia negotiates with its enemy while waging war. These are not peace negotiations, they are war negotiations, agreeing upon how the war will be conducted,”
I don’t think anyone seriously thinks Russia is committed to the negotiations as peace negotiations, including the Ukraine government which has made it clear that they don’t believe anything the Kremlin says.

“They are in it to destroy the enemy’s military and secure the safety of the local Russian population..”
No, they’re in it to expand the Kremlin’s power over Russia’s neighbors. That’s how autocrats think, they always seek more power over more people. Most in the West know this, and know the dangers of politicians havingunfettered power, something most Russian’s don’t appear to understand.

Imagine that Ukraine in over 5 weeks only managed to make one single attack on Russian territory! They could do nothing at all against the challenging amphibious invasion from Crimea. They sat put and let themselves be surrounded in Donbas. An extremely mismanaged war for the by far largest army in Europe (next to that of Russia’s). Ukraine started the war with more soldiers than the UK, France, Germany and Italy combined. And they have been mobilized since May last year. Still, they could achieve nothing. Perhaps the Russian attacks have been so overwhelming that nothing could be done? Several dozen command and control centers have been bombed, perhaps the Ukrainian head was cut off already the first couple of days.

Here is something which is hard for westerners to understand. Russia negotiates with its enemy while waging war. These are not peace negotiations, they are war negotiations, agreeing upon how the war will be conducted, where humanitarian corridors will be set up and as now that Russia backs off from Kiev in a local semi-ceasefire. NATO always only wages total war with no negotiations, and demands unconditional surrender and the execution of the enemy’s head of state, i.e. war to the last man followed by permanent political chaos and civil war during endless occupation. Russia doesn’t wage war that way They are in it to destroy the enemy’s military and secure the safety of the local Russian population..

Its called combined arms.

Infantry protects tanks against infantry and tanks protect infantry against tanks. Both are needed to make strong solid ground advances.

Artillery is used top protect the advances of both and in turn are protects bu both.

Air power is used against two things. Both low level and high level air power. Low level air power protects against both low level air attacks and ground level targets that artillery and tanks can not target and eliminate. Precision air to ground attacks.
High level air power is used to establish air superiority over the battler field so low level air power can work.

Russia does not use the idea of combined arms very well if at all.
Notice the armor advancing without infantry protection and infantry trying to advance without armor protection. Air power is thrown in with little to no actual tactical targets and or ground forces to protect,

I’m skeptical that tanks are now giving the best bang for the buck for the same reasons battleships have given way to aircraft and missile armed surface combatants. It often seems that tanks are making less of a contribution than can be justified for the money invested in them, if they’re so vulnerable that they need the protection of infantry they surely need to demonstrate and offensive capability that cannot be provided by cheaper systems. Their surface to air capability is very low, their main armament is out ranged by shoulder fired ATGW, so what’s their trump card? They’re certainly very vulnerable in an urban environment. Out in flat open country they’re easily destroyed by aircraft. . .

Have tanks been relegated to the status of buggy whips by modern shoulder fired missile systems?

The future belongs to drones and jets with high tech / GPS targeting abilities.

Vlad did not get the memo in the Kremlin.

I just heard that Russia is suffering a tech brain drain of young people because of Putins actions and Vlad is eliminating income taxes for anyone in the tech industry to incentivize them to stay in Russia. Good luck with that in todays world. All those techies are getting on line and reading actual news and live video through their tech sources and know what is what.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/03/31/russian-tech-workers-are-leaving-for-more-stable-p/?msclkid=ccce79bcb28611ec8c435df182785556

Vlad, it’s all a down hill spiral from here on in now.

(You should have declared victory, made your amends and withdrawn to your new comfy border lines before April Fools day like I suggested. Hubris and irrational unbridled ambition will take its toll, your unconscious, brutal authoritarian model no longer works in todays 21st century world. What is your end game? Call me ;)