And they called Ed Teller crazy.

Yet the reality is the other way around. The rights of the others trample those of the freedom folks. As every anti-freedom person knows, it is only fair. Their own rights reign supreme, not the rights of those who believe in freedom and liberty.

https://youtu.be/G2y8Sx4B2Sk

No sorry, you (nor any gov agency) do not get to order people otherwise healthy people to quarantine while they are not ill.

Even when it is demonstratable that that vaccine is in fact more of a “vaccine” and is a new technology never before used on the human host at the level that it was used during this Covid event? This has truly been THEE largest uninformed and forced experiment on the human race. You think the Tuskegee experiment was an outrage? (Have you ever heard of that? Pure S.O.M.)

And there are now emerging some of the more sobering data facts about deaths and injuries from that same experimental “vaccine”. Was it effective in dialing down some of the more extreme effects of Covid for many? I would say yes. But at what cost that is not knowable at this time?

It was apparent to many from the start that there was something not right and an unreasonable steering and manipulation program accompanied by extreme censorship and a Right to know by those in government, big pharma and big tech. That was plain to me, was it plain to you? How do you feel about it if you were?

And its those at the minimum unreasonable and dishonest actions by those big government, big pharma, big tech entities that have caused all of the confusion, chaos and distrust.

There are substantive points to your argument, but there have been things that have gone on during this declared health emergency that is suspect at the minimum. And at the maximum there is something nefarious and that threatens all American freedom and their health, IMO.

But to answer your question, I believe there are limits to individual rights when they infringe upon the rights of others. I believe that there are cases where the rights of the majority in a society do take precedent over individual rights. In the case of COVID, I would have been open to allowing people choose not to be vaccinated, but with limitations on other things they are allowed to do, so as not to infect others. Logically, they would be the ones to stay home as anti-vaxers are so happy to offer as a solution to the people they laugh at for not wanting to be infected. The problem we have seen in the US is that so many freedom folks think their rights trample those of all others.

So does this chart mean that you agree that the government has the obligation, the absolute Right to tell free Americans that they MUST have an experimental drug injected into their bodies? Especially when there are more established, proven and effective medical methods and alternatives available.

Who owns your choice and your life?

Do Americans have the Right to choose in such situations in your opinion?

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-pandemics-politics-masks-vaccines-deaths-2644f22b-fa77-4e34-a6fe-8b492172dff2.html

And a bonus video.

https://youtu.be/BaARGyL6hEw

Edward: I have thought about asking my readers to put together a betting pool to see who can guess how soon mdmill will cut and past his standard “15 times as lethal” paragraph into the comments following anything I post about the Wuhan flu.

So far he has done so in what seems every single such post generally within 24 hours. Now when I write anything about COVID, I wait with amusement for the next to arrive, and am always rewarded. And it doesn’t matter how many times you or others or even I point out how bogus his number is (I gave up trying about 18 months ago), he cuts and pastes the same paragraph into his first comment every single time.

Most amusing.

You keep asking, and we keep answering. You seem to have difficulties with memory retention.

“A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.”

Vaccines do not have to be 100% preventative of all symptoms or infection on all people to be a “vaccine”.

Vaccines that don’t work well on some older people (far below 100% because they have very poor immune systems) are still “vaccines”.

Any substance that enhances immune response by the method described in the definition is a vaccine….it may or may not be safe and effective.

Flu shots are vaccines by all modern medical terminology, but they are far from 100% effective.

The Wuhan flu vaccines work by enhancing immunity…that is the only thing they CAN do, they can do nothing else!
They do not kill the virus directly. If given after infection they have no or little effect because they only work by enhancing the hosts own immune system before infection, per the definition. This is the most critical point. Let me repeat it:

The Wuhan flu vaccines work by enhancing immunity…that is the only thing they CAN do, they can do nothing else!
They do not kill the virus directly. If given after infection they have no or little effect because they only work by enhancing the hosts own immune system before infection, per the definition.

They are vaccines, and they are not 100% preventative, and they might not even be safe for many people.
I consider therapeutics to be remedial, not preventative…but that may not be the broadest definition.

And that the vaccines DO work, is evidenced by RZ’s own post and here:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/covid-19-vaccines-protect-against-severe-illness-during-delta
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2582

A covid vaccine (see definition above) that reduces death and hospitalization by 80 or 90% is still an effective vaccine. If you were a high risk person and would rather have gotten very sick(even deathly sick) and gone to the hospital and relied on therapeutics to save your life from the original or delta covid variant, so be it.

It is true that therapeutics are getting better and the new variants are getting much less dangerous so vaccines are becoming pointless for all but a few.

However, all the silly semantical games about the “true” definition of a “vaccine” simply avoid the point of my original comment:
RZ makes many good points …then makes a seemingly senseless statement based on his own posted information. That is,
vaccines “have been COMPLETELY USELESS in protecting ANYONE.” followed by the reported conclusion of 44 papers
“…vaccines are important to reduce severe disease and death…the vaccines provide individual benefits to the vaccinee, and especially to older high-risk people…” Why is it that RZ, and many others, are continually unwilling to simply admit the Covid virus was roughly 15 times as lethal as “normal” flu and the vaccines were an effective protection for some people?

AND the mandates were outrageous and unnecessary.

AND the number of people in the U.S. mortally threatened (ie needing hospitalization) of covid was only about 4 in 1000 per year. And the number of covid-19 induced deaths about half of that (0.2% of the population)…hardly an existential crisis warranting the egregious devastation of an economy, personal finances, private businesses, education, and the social health and happiness of entire societies.

“especially when multiple effective interventions and epidemiological analysis could have served better.”

You did not notice that the powers that be in the government and big business as well as big tech had no interest in any other “Effective interventions”? All they were allowing was a mandated experimental mRNA drug “Vaccine”.

You did not notice that? Think back, what do you think that was about? What do you suppose drove that, what was clear me and many others counter intuitive agenda?

And remember, you me and those in the Pedestrian Realm think in rational and commonsense terms. And those in the Political Realm can think in more lets say Strategic terms where necessary things can get done when they are deemed necessary or opportune.

Q: Where does the justification for such actions to be undertaken come from?

A: S.O.M., The Two Conversations.

From S.O.M. : CONCLUSION: The public lives and operates under a subjective moral code or within a “Pedestrian Realm” perspective which they assume their leadership which exists within the “Political Realm” is constrained by. This is a subjective false perspective conclusion on the part of the public. Leadership at its existential core is not about morality, truth and honesty. Leadership is about the fundamental exercise of power and “its” survival.

“But its worth it in the big picture big think world.”

Nope, maybe that’s sarcasm, But the mRNA is encapsulated in lipid nano-vesicles as a path to cross cell membranes. that was one of the “big” breakthroughs. (mutual internal license with a couple of bio firms). All cell membranes are composed of lipo-proteins (hydrophobic), and the inoculated mRNA, thus unannounced and unintentionally can, and does, enter organs throughout, with sporadic unintended spike protein translation (RNA to protein), That in perilous tissue locations. If that is “big think” we’re talking serious big think, big picture, ignorance and arrogance, especially when multiple effective interventions and epidemiological analysis could have served better.

But the same chemicals don’t affect the humans breathing through the same masks?
Uh, huh.

Q; ” they were interested in lying to further their own ends.” What exactly were those ends? Can they actually be identified and known? I know what I think they are, but can they be nailed down?

Comment: There is a general demand being made that the mask mandate in the remaining venues that demand them be dropped, specifically in those young 5 year old’s going to school. That issue is not about a concern about the children’s health, that is driven by the concerns of the teachers through their teachers union and their influence within government.

The teachers see the young children and children in general as walking talking biohazards to begin with and the mask mandate is just an extension of that in an attempt to protect them.

I hear many ask and argue: But the risk to young children is essentially zero, so why should they have to wear masks?

Its the power of the unions that drives that, and its the power of the unions that have driven much of this irrational Covid insanity IMO.

Steve Richter: I am no expert in this but based on what I have been reading, respiratory viruses like the flu and the Wuhan flu do naturally wane with time. Think about it. New flu strains have been tracked as routinely arriving every year for the past century, are more deadly at first, and then become more benign.

This pattern however does not apply to all viruses, such as polio or AIDS. They are different beasts by far. And people are still dying of AIDS, though today’s treatments manage to extend their lives somewhat.

That this known fact was never mentioned by Fauci and other government officials should tell you everything you need to know about them. They weren’t interested in telling you the truth, they were interested in lying to further their own ends.

This is interesting to me because I heard no Fauci type virus experts telling the public that Covid would naturally wane over time. With the waning caused by the mutating of the virus to more mild versions.

( by the time the polio vaccine was developed in 1952 was polio as rampant in children as it had been when FDR was stricken? )

You are the master of finding video, there was a panel discussion which included a Vanity Fair writer and Dr. Fauci and this exact subject about getting rid of the old to replace it with the new but I can not locate it. Maybe you can find it?

The takeaway from the discussion was that the Vanity fair writer unabashedly proposed just getting rid of the old technology and replacing it with the new. And to be honest Dr. Fauci was not as enthusiastic about his proposal and pointed out the many problems with such an action.

IMO just one more half baked half educated Liberal Leftist “New world” think proposal much like the “Green New deal” where they have the cart before the horse and out of sequence and demand that the energy industry be destroyed before it is demonstrated that any alternative technology can actually do the job.

Stupid for the sake of stupid, but they have such lofty morals and ideals. But in the end everyone dies.

So then we are left with the question: Whats the point?

It’s Called Strategy OVER Morality, the two conversations.

A warning panel on the mRNA “vaccine”?

Not necessary, its being used under a declared national health emergency and there is NO liability still.

This moment in time in America and the world is when theoretically humanity says goodby to the old vaccine technology that takes so long to develop and prove its efficacy, and the *NEW* mRNA technology that takes much less time to dial in and develop and get out to the world.

And that establishing the viability of that *NEW* technology essentially is the boiled down main motivation that has been driving this entire event. All done without any liability and so there are no downside potentials for those several companies.

Its a government/ business win win, and the public is but potential collateral damage. But its worth it in the big picture big think world.

–the ‘ordinary’ yearly Flu-vaccine(s) in contrast, are all killed-virus strain type vaccines. They use modern techniques to mass produce them in high-quality, but it’s not comprised of mRNA at their core. They also have to make an educated guess as to the Strains they choose to include, 9 months in advance.

A repeat from me, but this is an education if you compare and contrast then & now.
(who would have thought, a stupid Halloween mask, would have saved us all from polio?)

Unconditional Surrender (1956)
Polio and the Salk Vaccine
https://youtu.be/G9z2uym00jE
14:33

“What is being called a vaccine produced by several drug companies regarding the Covid event is technically IMO, strictly not a vaccine. It’s an mRNA gene drug therapy or something similar.”

Thank you; I wish more people would call the mRNA inoculation what it really is, the drug companies’ therapeutic inoculation with potentially serious side effects. In fact not much different than many pharmaceutical offerings, all of which can have serious side effects.

If one watches live TV for forty five minutes one will see over and over multiple pharmaceutical advertisements, ALL of which have a repressed side caveat: “if you have or experience asthma, heart condition, etc, etc. you should see your physician before taking _____.”
Do we ever see this for Pfizer’s or Moderna’s, or ____’s mRNA inoculation? Never. Which incidentally puts the mRNA inoculations, ala “vaccination” squarely into a protected political space. It is not a stretch to call this FRAUD, kind of like other operations w have experienced.

What is being called a vaccine produced by several drug companies regarding the Covid event is technically IMO, strictly not a vaccine. It’s an mRNA gene drug therapy or something similar.

Did they have an effect in the severity of the disease? I would have to say yes to some degree.

BUT, were these new technology drug therapies truly and honestly represented by their producers and the government agencies that oversaw their production, distribution and application? NO THEY WERE NOT.

This virus event was used as a mass proof of concept opportunity by the powers that be which included the essential NO LIABILTY feature.

So technically the Zman is correct because what was / is presented as a vaccine is in fact technically not one. (IMO anyway)

Strictly pure Big think, Big government Strategy, not much Morality, and the long term effects and true costs are not known or knowable at this time.

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/susan-jones/cdcs-definition-vaccine-has-changed-over-time-protection-vs-immunity

From the article:
The CDC’s definition of “vaccine” also has changed: Last spring, CDC defined a vaccine as “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.”

The only reason to receive a vaccine is to acquire immunity. All RNA covid innoculations do not provide that. By definition then, they are not in fact vaccines at all and are completely useless.

With immunity off the table, other viable treatments provide support while the body fights off differing strengths of infection, such as ivermectin. They have decades long historical usage with well documented side effects, unlike the RNA covid shots. In my own case aspirin proved sufficient.

It should always have been every individual’s choice, with physician guidance, of what tool to use to address covid infection. I may have chosen the RNA shot if I had known exactly how miserable those nine days of infection would be.

Then again, maybe not.

AND the mandates were outrageous and unnecessary.

AND the number of people in the U.S. mortally threatened (ie needing hospitalization) of covid was about 4 in 1000 per year. The number of covid-19 induced deaths about half of that (0.2% of the population)…hardly an existential crisis warranting the egregious devastation of an economy, personal finances, private businesses, education, and the social health and happiness of entire societies.