Apollo 11 lunar ascent stage might still be in orbit around the Moon
New data about the Moon’s interior and gravitational field suggest that the Apollo 11 lunar ascent stage, the part of the LM that carried the astronauts back from the Moon, might still be in orbit around the Moon, rather than have crashed into its surface as long assumed.
Using the GRAIL gravity model and the General Mission Analysis Tool (GMAT) simulator, Meador expected to find the LM’s orbit destabilizing very quickly. What he found – and was verified by a third party using different methods – was that the Ascent Stage had a feedback mechanism that caused the orbit to stabilize itself over a period of every 24 days. When he ran the simulation forward, the orbit remained stable until the present day.
The upshot of this is that the Ascent Stage may still be in orbit now and could be observed when it is in the right position in relation to the Earth and the Sun. However, Meador emphasizes that the LM was never intended to be very robust. Designed to operate for only about 10 days, it was also filled with batteries and fuel tanks, which could have exploded years ago, either destroying the craft or sending it off on a new trajectory.
If the stage is in lunar orbit, than it probably is one the most valuable and quickly reachable artifacts from one of space’s most historic missions. While the Apollo artifacts left on the Moon should be left where they are, this piece could be recaptured and returned to Earth for both study and exhibition.
In fact, if it is still in orbit it should be recovered, to preserve it.
This data also suggests that other Apollo ascent stages as well as other past lunar orbiters might also still be in lunar orbit, and should be located.
The support of my readers through the years has given me the freedom and ability to analyze objectively the ongoing renaissance in space, as well as the cultural changes -- for good or ill -- that are happening across America. Four years ago, just before the 2020 election I wrote that Joe Biden's mental health was suspect. Only in the past two weeks has the mainstream media decided to recognize that basic fact.
Fourteen years ago I wrote that SLS and Orion were a bad ideas, a waste of money, would be years behind schedule, and better replaced by commercial private enterprise. Even today NASA and Congress refuses to recognize this reality.
In 2020 when the world panicked over COVID I wrote that the panic was unnecessary, that the virus was apparently simply a variation of the flu, that masks were not simply pointless but if worn incorrectly were a health threat, that the lockdowns were a disaster and did nothing to stop the spread of COVID. Only in the past year have some of our so-called experts in the health field have begun to recognize these facts.
Your help allows me to do this kind of intelligent analysis. I take no advertising or sponsors, so my reporting isn't influenced by donations by established space or drug companies. Instead, I rely entirely on donations and subscriptions from my readers, which gives me the freedom to write what I think, unencumbered by outside influences.
Please consider supporting my work here at Behind the Black.
You can support me either by giving a one-time contribution or a regular subscription. There are five ways of doing so:
1. Zelle: This is the only internet method that charges no fees. All you have to do is use the Zelle link at your internet bank and give my name and email address (zimmerman at nasw dot org). What you donate is what I get.
2. Patreon: Go to my website there and pick one of five monthly subscription amounts, or by making a one-time donation.
3. A Paypal Donation:
5. Donate by check, payable to Robert Zimmerman and mailed to
Behind The Black
c/o Robert Zimmerman
P.O.Box 1262
Cortaro, AZ 85652
You can also support me by buying one of my books, as noted in the boxes interspersed throughout the webpage or shown in the menu above. And if you buy the books through the ebookit links, I get a larger cut and I get it sooner.
New data about the Moon’s interior and gravitational field suggest that the Apollo 11 lunar ascent stage, the part of the LM that carried the astronauts back from the Moon, might still be in orbit around the Moon, rather than have crashed into its surface as long assumed.
Using the GRAIL gravity model and the General Mission Analysis Tool (GMAT) simulator, Meador expected to find the LM’s orbit destabilizing very quickly. What he found – and was verified by a third party using different methods – was that the Ascent Stage had a feedback mechanism that caused the orbit to stabilize itself over a period of every 24 days. When he ran the simulation forward, the orbit remained stable until the present day.
The upshot of this is that the Ascent Stage may still be in orbit now and could be observed when it is in the right position in relation to the Earth and the Sun. However, Meador emphasizes that the LM was never intended to be very robust. Designed to operate for only about 10 days, it was also filled with batteries and fuel tanks, which could have exploded years ago, either destroying the craft or sending it off on a new trajectory.
If the stage is in lunar orbit, than it probably is one the most valuable and quickly reachable artifacts from one of space’s most historic missions. While the Apollo artifacts left on the Moon should be left where they are, this piece could be recaptured and returned to Earth for both study and exhibition.
In fact, if it is still in orbit it should be recovered, to preserve it.
This data also suggests that other Apollo ascent stages as well as other past lunar orbiters might also still be in lunar orbit, and should be located.
The support of my readers through the years has given me the freedom and ability to analyze objectively the ongoing renaissance in space, as well as the cultural changes -- for good or ill -- that are happening across America. Four years ago, just before the 2020 election I wrote that Joe Biden's mental health was suspect. Only in the past two weeks has the mainstream media decided to recognize that basic fact.
Fourteen years ago I wrote that SLS and Orion were a bad ideas, a waste of money, would be years behind schedule, and better replaced by commercial private enterprise. Even today NASA and Congress refuses to recognize this reality.
In 2020 when the world panicked over COVID I wrote that the panic was unnecessary, that the virus was apparently simply a variation of the flu, that masks were not simply pointless but if worn incorrectly were a health threat, that the lockdowns were a disaster and did nothing to stop the spread of COVID. Only in the past year have some of our so-called experts in the health field have begun to recognize these facts.
Your help allows me to do this kind of intelligent analysis. I take no advertising or sponsors, so my reporting isn't influenced by donations by established space or drug companies. Instead, I rely entirely on donations and subscriptions from my readers, which gives me the freedom to write what I think, unencumbered by outside influences.
Please consider supporting my work here at Behind the Black.
You can support me either by giving a one-time contribution or a regular subscription. There are five ways of doing so:
1. Zelle: This is the only internet method that charges no fees. All you have to do is use the Zelle link at your internet bank and give my name and email address (zimmerman at nasw dot org). What you donate is what I get.
2. Patreon: Go to my website there and pick one of five monthly subscription amounts, or by making a one-time donation.
3. A Paypal Donation:
5. Donate by check, payable to Robert Zimmerman and mailed to
Behind The Black
c/o Robert Zimmerman
P.O.Box 1262
Cortaro, AZ 85652
You can also support me by buying one of my books, as noted in the boxes interspersed throughout the webpage or shown in the menu above. And if you buy the books through the ebookit links, I get a larger cut and I get it sooner.
We obviously have tracked various craft orbiting the moon and have not detected any ascent stages.
How could these craft be detected and orbits plotted?
While the LEM upper stages would be major artifacts for the Smithsonian and other museums, and they absolutely should be preserved if possible, there is one issue that appears insurmountable regarding their recovery. The issue is not getting them out of lunar orbit, but getting them back to Earth through reentry.
The LEM’s were built as light as possible, and they likely could not survive even a parachute recovery in the atmosphere, much less the forces and heat of reentry. Without the Space Shuttle, it does not appear that there is any available vehicle that could stow them during reentry.
A new vehicle would need to be designed and built for that specific purpose. Hello Elon or Jeff?
Due to “masscons” (mass concentrations) on the Moon, lunar orbits are not stable — unless one happens to be orbiting in one of the 4 “frozen orbit” inclinations (27°, 50°, 76°, and 86°). Since it seems unlikely that Apollo ascent stages utilized such orbital inclinations, how can one still be in lunar orbit?
Chris – will it fit in the hold of a Starship?
Michael McNeil: I suggest you read the paper, provided at a link at the bottom of the article I link to. The mathis beyond me, but maybe it will help answer your questions.
Chomper filled with foam to surround the ascent stage. Cut away at the foam block as you would a mammoth encased in ice….or any other fossil.
I need to read this paper. I thought the orbit was too low to be stable as well. If Columbia is there, Andi is right, if Starship could bring it back, that would be a huge publicity boost to SpaceX and to the NASM.
Scott Manley did a video on this topic about a week ago (sorry to link to the dark side):
https://youtu.be/dBHbLV7xEhc
Chris Whiting: Elon is already on this– cargo Starship (“Chomper”) will be more than capable of gobbling up the LM and bringing softly back to Earth (in a few years of course, but if Eagle has lasted this long, it will last a few more years)
Chris Whiting noted: “The LEM’s were built as light as possible, . . ”
That is very nearly an understatement. I read “Chariots For Apollo” (Pellegrino/Stoff, Scribner, 1985): check out Thriftbooks; the URL is way too long.
You could easily put a hole in the LEM with an inadvertent kick. As I’ve noted, the more I learn about the space programs of the 60’s/70’s, the more I am amazed at something I grew up watching. ‘Star Trek’ was cool, and all, but NASA was real.
If you want thin and flimsy, consider the SM-65 Atlas Missile
“Atlas was unusual in its use of balloon tanks for fuel, made of very thin stainless steel with minimal or no rigid support structures. Pressure in the tanks provides the structural rigidity required for flight. An Atlas rocket would collapse under its own weight if not kept pressurized, and had to have 5 psi (34 kPa) nitrogen in the tank even when not fueled.. The only other known use of balloon tanks at the time of writing is the Centaur high-energy upper stage, although some rockets (such as the Falcon series) use partially pressure-supported tanks.”
They wanted to wring every last bit of range and warhead throw-weight as possible (nuclear weapons, although having come down in size, were still large and heavy by later standards) from the missile
Col Beausabre related: “Pressure in the tanks provides the structural rigidity required for flight. An Atlas rocket would collapse under its own weight if not kept pressurized, and had to have 5 psi (34 kPa) nitrogen in the tank even when not fueled.. ”
Thank you! I did not know that; and a Cool Fact. It sounds like a rocket-powered Zeppelin.
I was wondering why Scott Manley was the dark side. It took me a moment to realize you meant YouTube.
Is there an alternative? I know some of my favorites, particularly Isaac Arthur, also post to Nebula. My computer can do that; my TV cannot.
Which reminds me, my next computer must be able to “cast” – both sending and receiving.
Markedup2, look at ‘Rumble’ as a substitute for ‘YouTube’.