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	Comments on: Blue Origin completes delivery of the two BE-4 engines for ULA&#8217;s second Vulcan launch	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Apr 2024 17:14:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: pzatchok		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458710</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pzatchok]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Apr 2024 17:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458710</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe if congress offered them some more cash to improve the design they might come through with a better design. 
Riighttt.

BO is not in this to make money by production but by design just like the old companies make more money on the design than the first productions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe if congress offered them some more cash to improve the design they might come through with a better design.<br />
Riighttt.</p>
<p>BO is not in this to make money by production but by design just like the old companies make more money on the design than the first productions.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458509</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458509</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[pzatchok, 
You wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;The problem with Blue Origin is they do not have enough flown engines to take apart and improve.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; 

SpaceX did not wait for a flown Raptor 1 before making improvements and coming up with the Raptor 2.  They were able to realize improvements before having any flight experience or in-flight performance to review.  Blue Origin could take a page from this handbook and modify the BE-4 for rapid manufacture.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pzatchok,<br />
You wrote: &#8220;<em>The problem with Blue Origin is they do not have enough flown engines to take apart and improve.</em>&#8221; </p>
<p>SpaceX did not wait for a flown Raptor 1 before making improvements and coming up with the Raptor 2.  They were able to realize improvements before having any flight experience or in-flight performance to review.  Blue Origin could take a page from this handbook and modify the BE-4 for rapid manufacture.</p>
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		<title>
		By: pzatchok		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458337</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pzatchok]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Apr 2024 05:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458337</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The problem with Blue Origin is they do not have enough flown engines to take apart and improve.

Unlike Space X which recovered as much as possible intact and improved with every flight until they made their first total recovery. I bet those engines were stripped down to the last nut and bolt and everything that looked odd was changed to make it last longer or preform better.

I bet every single scratch or wear mark was noted and corrected.  More than likely a tech noted the problem and made the corrective recommendation to the engineer who approved or disapproved it signed off and sent down the new go ahead.
Easy fixes get implemented on the next rocket, the more complex fixes eventually get done on later rockets.


BO has flown nothing so has very very little data from recovered flights. And I just do not believe BO has the corporate structure like Space X has to accept recommendations from it techs. For a company with thousands of employees they act like they only have a dozen or so actually doing any assembly and construction.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with Blue Origin is they do not have enough flown engines to take apart and improve.</p>
<p>Unlike Space X which recovered as much as possible intact and improved with every flight until they made their first total recovery. I bet those engines were stripped down to the last nut and bolt and everything that looked odd was changed to make it last longer or preform better.</p>
<p>I bet every single scratch or wear mark was noted and corrected.  More than likely a tech noted the problem and made the corrective recommendation to the engineer who approved or disapproved it signed off and sent down the new go ahead.<br />
Easy fixes get implemented on the next rocket, the more complex fixes eventually get done on later rockets.</p>
<p>BO has flown nothing so has very very little data from recovered flights. And I just do not believe BO has the corporate structure like Space X has to accept recommendations from it techs. For a company with thousands of employees they act like they only have a dozen or so actually doing any assembly and construction.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458272</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Apr 2024 00:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458272</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Spacex probably designed Raptor to be a “modest-sized engine that performed like a bat out of hell!”&lt;/em&gt;&quot; 

I think this illustrates a difference in philosophies.  SpaceX is willing to mess with the design in order to improve performance and production, to the point that the second version of Raptor is flying and the third version will be ready for flight soon.  So far, it seems Blue Origin has not made such improvements.  

SpaceX has abandoned the engineering philosophy of &quot;if it works, don&#039;t fix it&quot; for a newer philosophy of &quot;if it can work better, faster, cheaper, make it so!&quot;, keeping Raptor (and Starship) in continuous development phase.*  As GeorgeC called it: a &quot;&lt;em&gt;continuous optimization culture.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;  

Blue Origin may only now be learning that their engine works, but their production methods don&#039;t work so well.  Blue&#039;s engineers may need to fix something, and I hope they know what it is.  
___________________
* Even Falcon 9 and its Merlin engine remained in development for half a decade after they became operational, then the engineers were moved onto Raptor and Starship, or BFR, as it was known back then.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray Van Dune wrote: &#8220;<em>Spacex probably designed Raptor to be a “modest-sized engine that performed like a bat out of hell!”</em>&#8221; </p>
<p>I think this illustrates a difference in philosophies.  SpaceX is willing to mess with the design in order to improve performance and production, to the point that the second version of Raptor is flying and the third version will be ready for flight soon.  So far, it seems Blue Origin has not made such improvements.  </p>
<p>SpaceX has abandoned the engineering philosophy of &#8220;if it works, don&#8217;t fix it&#8221; for a newer philosophy of &#8220;if it can work better, faster, cheaper, make it so!&#8221;, keeping Raptor (and Starship) in continuous development phase.*  As GeorgeC called it: a &#8220;<em>continuous optimization culture.</em>&#8221;  </p>
<p>Blue Origin may only now be learning that their engine works, but their production methods don&#8217;t work so well.  Blue&#8217;s engineers may need to fix something, and I hope they know what it is.<br />
___________________<br />
* Even Falcon 9 and its Merlin engine remained in development for half a decade after they became operational, then the engineers were moved onto Raptor and Starship, or BFR, as it was known back then.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458254</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2024 22:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458254</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I recall reading that the design point for BE-4 was to be a &quot;large engine running at modest performance&quot;, in order to improve producibility and reliability. Looks like something went awry.

Spacex probably designed Raptor to be a &quot;modest-sized engine that performed like a bat out of hell!&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall reading that the design point for BE-4 was to be a &#8220;large engine running at modest performance&#8221;, in order to improve producibility and reliability. Looks like something went awry.</p>
<p>Spacex probably designed Raptor to be a &#8220;modest-sized engine that performed like a bat out of hell!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: GeorgeC		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458232</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GeorgeC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2024 21:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458232</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is all culture. Design culture; continuous optimization culture.
Where you can optimize away the parts and metering you created without losing your job.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is all culture. Design culture; continuous optimization culture.<br />
Where you can optimize away the parts and metering you created without losing your job.</p>
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		<title>
		By: V-Man		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/blue-origin-completes-delivery-of-the-two-be-4-engines-for-ulas-second-vulcan-launch/#comment-1458173</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[V-Man]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2024 17:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=104462#comment-1458173</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I wonder if the engine design is too complex, or if it&#039;s a case of runaway processes (X number of tests required where one would do, three people needing to sign off -- in triplicate -- the tightening of each flange bolt, etc.). 

The latter is fixable with a culture change. The former is a much deeper issue.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the engine design is too complex, or if it&#8217;s a case of runaway processes (X number of tests required where one would do, three people needing to sign off &#8212; in triplicate &#8212; the tightening of each flange bolt, etc.). </p>
<p>The latter is fixable with a culture change. The former is a much deeper issue.</p>
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