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	<title>
	Comments on: FAA demands SpaceX do &#8220;mishap investigation&#8221; into the loss of Starship yesterday	</title>
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	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1546141</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jan 2025 22:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1546141</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeff Wright recommended: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Once the TPS and the airframe has been perfected–then move to all Methalox.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; 

Maybe, but they are learning about all aspects of the craft, including the problems that may be associated with this new fuel.  There is little practical flight experience around the world, as methane has only been flying for about three years and on a limited number of flights (&#060;12?).  Using methane increases the flight experience with the fuel and the Raptor engines, allowing them to get flight experience with the Raptor 3 sooner and with its predecessor, the Raptor 2.  Will this experience lead to a Raptor 4?  

On the other hand, three years ago SpaceX had been planning to test launch Starship and Super Heavy with kerosene-fueled Merlin engines, just to test out the structure and the flight concepts, but getting the flight license took too long and they opted to go straight for the methane and the Raptors.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff Wright recommended: &#8220;<em>Once the TPS and the airframe has been perfected–then move to all Methalox.</em>&#8221; </p>
<p>Maybe, but they are learning about all aspects of the craft, including the problems that may be associated with this new fuel.  There is little practical flight experience around the world, as methane has only been flying for about three years and on a limited number of flights (&lt;12?).  Using methane increases the flight experience with the fuel and the Raptor engines, allowing them to get flight experience with the Raptor 3 sooner and with its predecessor, the Raptor 2.  Will this experience lead to a Raptor 4?  </p>
<p>On the other hand, three years ago SpaceX had been planning to test launch Starship and Super Heavy with kerosene-fueled Merlin engines, just to test out the structure and the flight concepts, but getting the flight license took too long and they opted to go straight for the methane and the Raptors.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1545826</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jan 2025 00:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1545826</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Let me throw this out here.

I know Starship is to be Methalox, same as SuperHeavy.... which as fared better than Starship itself.

There is a part of me that wonders whether or not the recent Starship test would have been more successful if it had kerolox Falcon engines that are more of a known quantity.

Payload mass might takes hit --but volume might increase using kerosene as fuel...perhaps kerosene leaks aren&#039;t as critical as methane leaks.

Once the TPS and the airframe has been perfected--then move to all Methalox.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me throw this out here.</p>
<p>I know Starship is to be Methalox, same as SuperHeavy&#8230;. which as fared better than Starship itself.</p>
<p>There is a part of me that wonders whether or not the recent Starship test would have been more successful if it had kerolox Falcon engines that are more of a known quantity.</p>
<p>Payload mass might takes hit &#8211;but volume might increase using kerosene as fuel&#8230;perhaps kerosene leaks aren&#8217;t as critical as methane leaks.</p>
<p>Once the TPS and the airframe has been perfected&#8211;then move to all Methalox.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544639</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jan 2025 22:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544639</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeff Wright, 
Thank you for the video.  A friend of mine recently recommended that I watch blancolirio, but after seeing that, I will pass on his recommendation in favor of people who know what they are talking about.  Ellie in Space interviewed an actual pilot, who said that such reactions by airliners and air traffic control are routine, because a large number of events, natural and manmade, cause similar traffic disruptions.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ekXcsYucw&#038;t=1278s (1/2 hour, cued to topic at hand).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff Wright,<br />
Thank you for the video.  A friend of mine recently recommended that I watch blancolirio, but after seeing that, I will pass on his recommendation in favor of people who know what they are talking about.  Ellie in Space interviewed an actual pilot, who said that such reactions by airliners and air traffic control are routine, because a large number of events, natural and manmade, cause similar traffic disruptions.<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ekXcsYucw&#038;t=1278s" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ekXcsYucw&#038;t=1278s</a> (1/2 hour, cued to topic at hand).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544529</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jan 2025 08:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544529</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Pilots look hopping mad
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O_CnuIJWLJU

A solution to NewSpace HLLV woes:
https://x.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1880032569988968814]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pilots look hopping mad<br />
<a href="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O_CnuIJWLJU" rel="nofollow ugc">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O_CnuIJWLJU</a></p>
<p>A solution to NewSpace HLLV woes:<br />
<a href="https://x.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1880032569988968814" rel="nofollow ugc">https://x.com/SpaceOffshore/status/1880032569988968814</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544394</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jan 2025 22:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544394</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In short, change the FAA AFTS protocols to detonate at a lower altitude.

Spit balling here from what I have read but for Flight 7, the asymmetric thrust by progressive engine shutdowns caused SS to start the spinning in space on a ballistic trajectory. The ship stayed together since there were no aerodynamic forces that are present lower in the atmosphere to tear it apart like would happen for a typical stage 1 with similar out of control death spirals as we have seen lots of time before for other doomed rockets that have died before the FTS was triggered by the range officer.

So it seems that SS was in its nominal flight corridor but the AFTS determined after a few minutes it was too low and slow to make Australia ballistically, and per FAA &quot;current&quot; termination protocols, terminated the flight somewhere over 100 kilometers in altitude and created a very larger debris plume that expanded as it descended with some pieces allegedly landing beyond the TFR exclusion zone. IF/when they reprogram the AFTS, to trigger at lower altitudes, the termination event would have occurred much further east and at lower altitude, with a much smaller debris plume in the ocean while still being well short of Africa. Stay tuned for more findings.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In short, change the FAA AFTS protocols to detonate at a lower altitude.</p>
<p>Spit balling here from what I have read but for Flight 7, the asymmetric thrust by progressive engine shutdowns caused SS to start the spinning in space on a ballistic trajectory. The ship stayed together since there were no aerodynamic forces that are present lower in the atmosphere to tear it apart like would happen for a typical stage 1 with similar out of control death spirals as we have seen lots of time before for other doomed rockets that have died before the FTS was triggered by the range officer.</p>
<p>So it seems that SS was in its nominal flight corridor but the AFTS determined after a few minutes it was too low and slow to make Australia ballistically, and per FAA &#8220;current&#8221; termination protocols, terminated the flight somewhere over 100 kilometers in altitude and created a very larger debris plume that expanded as it descended with some pieces allegedly landing beyond the TFR exclusion zone. IF/when they reprogram the AFTS, to trigger at lower altitudes, the termination event would have occurred much further east and at lower altitude, with a much smaller debris plume in the ocean while still being well short of Africa. Stay tuned for more findings.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Trent Castanaveras		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544188</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trent Castanaveras]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jan 2025 02:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544188</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A better link to both the Starship and BONG investigations:

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/statements/general-statements

Both descriptions on the same page!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A better link to both the Starship and BONG investigations:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/statements/general-statements" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/statements/general-statements</a></p>
<p>Both descriptions on the same page!</p>
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		<title>
		By: D. Messier		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544153</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Messier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jan 2025 00:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544153</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The policy didn&#039;t change under Biden. Companies did mishap investigations with FAA supervision. They FAA reviewed the results of the investigation and gave the go ahead to resume launches once it was satisfied with the results and proposed changes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The policy didn&#8217;t change under Biden. Companies did mishap investigations with FAA supervision. They FAA reviewed the results of the investigation and gave the go ahead to resume launches once it was satisfied with the results and proposed changes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrick Underwood		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544151</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick Underwood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jan 2025 00:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544151</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m pretty sure when the New Glenn GSE opened the water deluge prior to ignition, the guy on the launch loop said &quot;Bong water started.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure when the New Glenn GSE opened the water deluge prior to ignition, the guy on the launch loop said &#8220;Bong water started.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve Richter		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544140</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Richter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 22:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544140</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Would be nice if the public could be better informed by SpaceX.   Did Starship RUD or was the FTS triggered?  There is a wide gap of concern for the public to consider as it evaluates those two outcomes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would be nice if the public could be better informed by SpaceX.   Did Starship RUD or was the FTS triggered?  There is a wide gap of concern for the public to consider as it evaluates those two outcomes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544139</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 22:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544139</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Trent - missed Scott&#039;s use of &quot;BONG&quot;. I have been on an extended road trip and this site and a few others were all I had time for!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trent &#8211; missed Scott&#8217;s use of &#8220;BONG&#8221;. I have been on an extended road trip and this site and a few others were all I had time for!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Trent Castanaveras		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544136</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trent Castanaveras]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 22:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544136</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Whoops!

I grabbed the wrong link. Lets try this one on for size:

https://x.com/BCCarCounters/status/1880082773689414123

Ray Van Dune &quot;BONG&quot;:
Scott Manley was really going nuts with that this last week. Super entertaining :D]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops!</p>
<p>I grabbed the wrong link. Lets try this one on for size:</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/BCCarCounters/status/1880082773689414123" rel="nofollow ugc">https://x.com/BCCarCounters/status/1880082773689414123</a></p>
<p>Ray Van Dune &#8220;BONG&#8221;:<br />
Scott Manley was really going nuts with that this last week. Super entertaining :D</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544135</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 22:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544135</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544128&quot;&gt;Robert Zimmerman&lt;/a&gt;.

To all: Trent emailed me to apologize for his error, and he added &lt;a href=&quot;https://x.com/BCCarCounters/status/1880082773689414123?s=19&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow ugc&quot;&gt;this correct link&lt;/a&gt; to the FAA&#039;s investigation notice to Blue Origin. As with SpaceX, the agency is &quot;requiring Blue Origin to perform a mishap investigation.&quot; The FAA then tops this by telling everyone to contact &lt;em&gt;Blue Origin&lt;/em&gt; for more information.

If that doesn&#039;t tell us that the FAA is ending its fake game of pretending to do these investigations I don&#039;t know what does.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544128">Robert Zimmerman</a>.</p>
<p>To all: Trent emailed me to apologize for his error, and he added <a href="https://x.com/BCCarCounters/status/1880082773689414123?s=19" rel="nofollow ugc">this correct link</a> to the FAA&#8217;s investigation notice to Blue Origin. As with SpaceX, the agency is &#8220;requiring Blue Origin to perform a mishap investigation.&#8221; The FAA then tops this by telling everyone to contact <em>Blue Origin</em> for more information.</p>
<p>If that doesn&#8217;t tell us that the FAA is ending its fake game of pretending to do these investigations I don&#8217;t know what does.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544134</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 21:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544134</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ps. Blue Origin New Glenn... BONG!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ps. Blue Origin New Glenn&#8230; BONG!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544132</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 21:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544132</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t seem to locate any video or reportage of any kind on the BO landing glitch, other than that it &quot;missed&quot; the landing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t seem to locate any video or reportage of any kind on the BO landing glitch, other than that it &#8220;missed&#8221; the landing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544128</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 21:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544128</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544125&quot;&gt;Trent Castanaveras&lt;/a&gt;.

Trent: That is a very old tweet, referring to the New Shepard incident from I think 2022. It doesn&#039;t relate to this week&#039;s New Glenn launch.

At the same time, I expect the FAA to take the same approach with Blue Origin as it does with SpaceX,and that approach will more closely match its policies prior to the Biden presidency, where it recognized it has no qualifications to do any investigations, and will simply require the companies to do it (as if they wouldn&#039;t!) and then accept the results quickly. 

With SpaceX this policy will make an appreciable difference, as the company moves very fast between test launches. With Blue Origin it won&#039;t matter much, because Blue Origin tends to work slowly no matter what.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544125">Trent Castanaveras</a>.</p>
<p>Trent: That is a very old tweet, referring to the New Shepard incident from I think 2022. It doesn&#8217;t relate to this week&#8217;s New Glenn launch.</p>
<p>At the same time, I expect the FAA to take the same approach with Blue Origin as it does with SpaceX,and that approach will more closely match its policies prior to the Biden presidency, where it recognized it has no qualifications to do any investigations, and will simply require the companies to do it (as if they wouldn&#8217;t!) and then accept the results quickly. </p>
<p>With SpaceX this policy will make an appreciable difference, as the company moves very fast between test launches. With Blue Origin it won&#8217;t matter much, because Blue Origin tends to work slowly no matter what.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Trent Castanaveras		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544125</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trent Castanaveras]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 21:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544125</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tregonsee314:

Already in progress.

https://x.com/wapodavenport/status/1569359448690278400?s=19]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tregonsee314:</p>
<p>Already in progress.</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/wapodavenport/status/1569359448690278400?s=19" rel="nofollow ugc">https://x.com/wapodavenport/status/1569359448690278400?s=19</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Tregonsee314		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/faa-demands-spacex-do-mishap-investigation-into-the-loss-of-starship-yesterday/#comment-1544118</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tregonsee314]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2025 20:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=111528#comment-1544118</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Pray tell where is the similar demand for the results of Blue Origins first stage? At least in the case of Starship we saw the remains reenter over the Turks and Caicos. Has the  first stage of New Glenn reentered yet? It was not clear what it&#039;s trajectory was when it failed but it seemed to go further up than superheavy does, more like the Falcon 9 first stage?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pray tell where is the similar demand for the results of Blue Origins first stage? At least in the case of Starship we saw the remains reenter over the Turks and Caicos. Has the  first stage of New Glenn reentered yet? It was not clear what it&#8217;s trajectory was when it failed but it seemed to go further up than superheavy does, more like the Falcon 9 first stage?</p>
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