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	Comments on: Ispace confirms that its Resilience lunar lander has failed, apparently crashing on the Moon	</title>
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	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594775</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2025 03:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594775</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Scott Manley has a video on this failure.  He thinks that the problem may be the last minute turnover of the lander to vertical, and the lidar not giving accurate distance information early enough in the landing phase for the spacecraft to slow down enough to land softly.  

He also answers the question as to why we are having so many landing failures: 
&quot;&lt;em&gt;Why does it seem so much harder to land on the moon today compared to 50 years ago?&lt;/em&gt;&quot; 

His answers (paraphrased): 1. They are choosing a much harder way to land, in the old days they come straight down, but that meant that they needed more propellant to counter lunar gravity, and the engines had to be larger.  

2. The trajectories needed for the orbits to the moon also required the rockets to throw the spacecraft much faster, meaning a more expensive launch vehicle.   

3. AThe old spacecraft only needed to cary a small payload, a camera, but today they are trying to put a lot more payload on the landers.  

My thoughts about the unmanned landers vs Apollo is that each of the Apollos that landed were manually landed, not by the preprogramed computer.  Similar to David M. Cook&#039;s comment, the astronauts avoided hazardous conditions at their landing sites, but today’s unmanned landers are having difficulties identifying hazards.  One landed within a crater.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott Manley has a video on this failure.  He thinks that the problem may be the last minute turnover of the lander to vertical, and the lidar not giving accurate distance information early enough in the landing phase for the spacecraft to slow down enough to land softly.  </p>
<p>He also answers the question as to why we are having so many landing failures:<br />
&#8220;<em>Why does it seem so much harder to land on the moon today compared to 50 years ago?</em>&#8221; </p>
<p>His answers (paraphrased): 1. They are choosing a much harder way to land, in the old days they come straight down, but that meant that they needed more propellant to counter lunar gravity, and the engines had to be larger.  </p>
<p>2. The trajectories needed for the orbits to the moon also required the rockets to throw the spacecraft much faster, meaning a more expensive launch vehicle.   </p>
<p>3. AThe old spacecraft only needed to cary a small payload, a camera, but today they are trying to put a lot more payload on the landers.  </p>
<p>My thoughts about the unmanned landers vs Apollo is that each of the Apollos that landed were manually landed, not by the preprogramed computer.  Similar to David M. Cook&#8217;s comment, the astronauts avoided hazardous conditions at their landing sites, but today’s unmanned landers are having difficulties identifying hazards.  One landed within a crater.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David M. Cook		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594760</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David M. Cook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2025 01:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594760</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think they need at least 3 laser range finders, as they are critical to the landing process.  Also, Neil Armstrong said it took all of his piloting skills to safely land Eagle on the moon.  This from a  man who also flew the X-15, among other craft!  It‘s  not easy!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think they need at least 3 laser range finders, as they are critical to the landing process.  Also, Neil Armstrong said it took all of his piloting skills to safely land Eagle on the moon.  This from a  man who also flew the X-15, among other craft!  It‘s  not easy!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594726</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2025 23:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594726</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[From the linked press release: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;The laser rangefinder used to measure the distance to the lunar surface experienced delays in obtaining valid measurement values.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Why the delays?  Could it be that the computers have been made with such complex software that data is not processed fast enough?  Astonishing simplicity was required on the 1960s spacecraft, but these days everyone is comfortable using huge operating systems and massive (figuratively) software that takes simple tasks and makes them complex.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the linked press release: </p>
<blockquote><p>The laser rangefinder used to measure the distance to the lunar surface experienced delays in obtaining valid measurement values.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why the delays?  Could it be that the computers have been made with such complex software that data is not processed fast enough?  Astonishing simplicity was required on the 1960s spacecraft, but these days everyone is comfortable using huge operating systems and massive (figuratively) software that takes simple tasks and makes them complex.</p>
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		<title>
		By: sippin_bourbon		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594472</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sippin_bourbon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 21:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594472</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tregonsee314

Pretty sure J.S. was referring to the six landers that actually descended to and landed on the surface under manual control.

Apollo 10 does not count, as they deliberately aborted at altitude above the surface.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tregonsee314</p>
<p>Pretty sure J.S. was referring to the six landers that actually descended to and landed on the surface under manual control.</p>
<p>Apollo 10 does not count, as they deliberately aborted at altitude above the surface.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tregonsee314		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594439</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tregonsee314]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 20:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594439</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Street the Apollo record was a close run thing Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin on Apollo 11 skated awful close to disaster because Armstrong had to bypass the initial landing site which had large boulders not seen in the survey shots. And Apollo 13 didn&#039;t even get to try and got it&#039;s crew home by the skin of their teeth.  And of course there was the tragic fire of Apollo 1 during a rehearsal/test.

Apollo was impressive, but things could have easily gone MUCH worse.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Street the Apollo record was a close run thing Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin on Apollo 11 skated awful close to disaster because Armstrong had to bypass the initial landing site which had large boulders not seen in the survey shots. And Apollo 13 didn&#8217;t even get to try and got it&#8217;s crew home by the skin of their teeth.  And of course there was the tragic fire of Apollo 1 during a rehearsal/test.</p>
<p>Apollo was impressive, but things could have easily gone MUCH worse.</p>
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		By: sippin_bourbon		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594437</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sippin_bourbon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 20:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594437</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I cannot find details on what Bue Ghost used.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cannot find details on what Bue Ghost used.</p>
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		<title>
		By: sippin_bourbon		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594435</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sippin_bourbon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 19:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594435</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Are they using LASER vs RADAR try and save weight? Maybe there is something about the regolith that beguiles the LASER system within a certain distance.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are they using LASER vs RADAR try and save weight? Maybe there is something about the regolith that beguiles the LASER system within a certain distance.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard M		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594393</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 17:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594393</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Surveyor 2 and Surveyor 4 both crashed. But the other five landed successfully. No laser altimeters, just doppler radars! 

Pretty good success ratio for that point in history. Heck, it would be a ratio that NASA would be delighted to get from its CLPS landers now!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surveyor 2 and Surveyor 4 both crashed. But the other five landed successfully. No laser altimeters, just doppler radars! </p>
<p>Pretty good success ratio for that point in history. Heck, it would be a ratio that NASA would be delighted to get from its CLPS landers now!</p>
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		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594349</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 15:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594349</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594342&quot;&gt;agimarc&lt;/a&gt;.

agimarc: You are wrong about both the Surveyors and Lunar Orbiters. NASA built seven Surveyors, and six successfully landed, including the first.

All five Lunar Orbiters reached the Moon and operated in orbit, as expected.

None used laser altimeters. All were built with slide rules.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594342">agimarc</a>.</p>
<p>agimarc: You are wrong about both the Surveyors and Lunar Orbiters. NASA built seven Surveyors, and six successfully landed, including the first.</p>
<p>All five Lunar Orbiters reached the Moon and operated in orbit, as expected.</p>
<p>None used laser altimeters. All were built with slide rules.</p>
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		By: agimarc		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594342</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[agimarc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 15:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594342</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[JS says:  &quot;I have a lot of respect for those Apollo studs. They nailed the landing first time every time.&quot;

Correct on Apollo, though they learned a lot from the Rangers, Surveyors and Lunar Orbiters they splattered on the moon for years before Apollo 10.  Rangers were intended to impact.  Surveyors and Lunar Orbiters weren&#039;t, though some did.  Appears some of those lessons didn&#039;t make it thru the 60 years to today.  

OTOH, one of the things about new commercial space is learning how to break stuff before learning how not to.  Of course, you have the other constraint of trying not to run out of $$$ during that process.  Cheers -]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JS says:  &#8220;I have a lot of respect for those Apollo studs. They nailed the landing first time every time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Correct on Apollo, though they learned a lot from the Rangers, Surveyors and Lunar Orbiters they splattered on the moon for years before Apollo 10.  Rangers were intended to impact.  Surveyors and Lunar Orbiters weren&#8217;t, though some did.  Appears some of those lessons didn&#8217;t make it thru the 60 years to today.  </p>
<p>OTOH, one of the things about new commercial space is learning how to break stuff before learning how not to.  Of course, you have the other constraint of trying not to run out of $$$ during that process.  Cheers &#8211;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard M		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594338</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 15:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594338</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yet another reminder that landing a robot on another world is actually kinda hard.

Tell you what, though, Resilience sent back some awesome imagery from orbit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another reminder that landing a robot on another world is actually kinda hard.</p>
<p>Tell you what, though, Resilience sent back some awesome imagery from orbit.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James Street		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594330</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Street]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 15:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594330</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have a lot of respect for those Apollo studs. They nailed the landing first time every time. My vacuum cleaner has more computer power than their lunar lander.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a lot of respect for those Apollo studs. They nailed the landing first time every time. My vacuum cleaner has more computer power than their lunar lander.</p>
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		By: LBLfan		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594318</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LBLfan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 14:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594318</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Happy to know that Lunar Lander games did not guarantee lunar lander success. The first computer game I ever played was a teletype text based Lunar Lander game, speed and height were reported and thrust was input. 
They got better: https://www.pcmag.com/news/50-years-on-the-moon-the-evolution-of-lunar-lander-games but apparently there is a difference between gaming and practice.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy to know that Lunar Lander games did not guarantee lunar lander success. The first computer game I ever played was a teletype text based Lunar Lander game, speed and height were reported and thrust was input.<br />
They got better: <a href="https://www.pcmag.com/news/50-years-on-the-moon-the-evolution-of-lunar-lander-games" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.pcmag.com/news/50-years-on-the-moon-the-evolution-of-lunar-lander-games</a> but apparently there is a difference between gaming and practice.</p>
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		By: M. Murcek		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ispace-confirms-that-its-resilience-lunar-lander-has-failed-apparently-crashing-on-the-moon/#comment-1594291</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M. Murcek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2025 13:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=114670#comment-1594291</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[P. T. Barnum to the courtesy phone please. P. T. Barnum...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P. T. Barnum to the courtesy phone please. P. T. Barnum&#8230;</p>
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