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	Comments on: Judge approves plea deal related to Boeing&#8217;s malfeasance that caused two 737-Max crashes killing 346	</title>
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	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Eagleson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624727</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2025 05:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624727</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Edward,

I quite agree.

It has always boggled my mind that modern aircraft still generally have no exterior-pointed cameras to allow quick visual monitoring of the condition of the engines, major structural elements and control surfaces from the cockpit.  Typical &lt;i&gt;automobiles&lt;/i&gt; these days have from one to several on-board cameras.  Why civil air transports do not is entirely beyond me.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward,</p>
<p>I quite agree.</p>
<p>It has always boggled my mind that modern aircraft still generally have no exterior-pointed cameras to allow quick visual monitoring of the condition of the engines, major structural elements and control surfaces from the cockpit.  Typical <i>automobiles</i> these days have from one to several on-board cameras.  Why civil air transports do not is entirely beyond me.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doubting Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624710</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2025 08:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624710</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Some links on subject

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmXLQHhUtv4&#038;t=21s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBk8b5Q7kk0]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some links on subject</p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmXLQHhUtv4&#038;t=21s" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmXLQHhUtv4&#038;t=21s</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBk8b5Q7kk0" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBk8b5Q7kk0</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624705</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2025 05:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624705</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am now hearing that there is evidence of compressor stall in the right engine (#3), leaving only one engine, the #2 center engine, with thrust for take off.  Although the expectation is that the aircraft at maximum weight should be able to get airborne on two engines, it cannot do it on one engine alone.  If true, this could be the reason for the crash rather than a successful go around.  

The similar crash at O&#039;Hare, half a century ago, when an engine came off a DC-10, left several lessons that should have been known to these pilots, so the loss (departure/detachment) of a single engine should not have had the same result.  This is why there are not many direct comparisons, because an engine that departs the plane should now be able to be handled better than the O&#039;Hare accident.  

Other than the root cause of improper maintenance procedures, the O&#039;Hare crash was largely due to the lies that the remaining instrumentation gave to the pilots.  After that crash, several pilots in simulators were given the same problems that the DC-10 pilots had on their take-off, and all of them -- yes, all -- &quot;crashed,&quot; too.  Another set of pilots were given the same problems, but only &lt;em&gt;after &lt;/em&gt;they had been told what they would encounter.  They knew that their instruments would lie to them and what the actual condition of the aircraft was.  All of them -- yes, &lt;em&gt;all &lt;/em&gt;of them -- returned to the simulated airport safely.  The lessons were clear and were incorporated into training.  

I now think that these pilots were trapped in a no-win situation, and, not being a simulation, they were unable to do the same as Captain Kirk did with his Kobayashi Maru no-win simulation.  The science fiction was clever, but the reality was a tragedy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am now hearing that there is evidence of compressor stall in the right engine (#3), leaving only one engine, the #2 center engine, with thrust for take off.  Although the expectation is that the aircraft at maximum weight should be able to get airborne on two engines, it cannot do it on one engine alone.  If true, this could be the reason for the crash rather than a successful go around.  </p>
<p>The similar crash at O&#8217;Hare, half a century ago, when an engine came off a DC-10, left several lessons that should have been known to these pilots, so the loss (departure/detachment) of a single engine should not have had the same result.  This is why there are not many direct comparisons, because an engine that departs the plane should now be able to be handled better than the O&#8217;Hare accident.  </p>
<p>Other than the root cause of improper maintenance procedures, the O&#8217;Hare crash was largely due to the lies that the remaining instrumentation gave to the pilots.  After that crash, several pilots in simulators were given the same problems that the DC-10 pilots had on their take-off, and all of them &#8212; yes, all &#8212; &#8220;crashed,&#8221; too.  Another set of pilots were given the same problems, but only <em>after </em>they had been told what they would encounter.  They knew that their instruments would lie to them and what the actual condition of the aircraft was.  All of them &#8212; yes, <em>all </em>of them &#8212; returned to the simulated airport safely.  The lessons were clear and were incorporated into training.  </p>
<p>I now think that these pilots were trapped in a no-win situation, and, not being a simulation, they were unable to do the same as Captain Kirk did with his Kobayashi Maru no-win simulation.  The science fiction was clever, but the reality was a tragedy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Eagleson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624696</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2025 21:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624696</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Edward,

Yep.  A perfect storm.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward,</p>
<p>Yep.  A perfect storm.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624664</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2025 02:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624664</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Probably didn’t help that this MD-11 was a cargo flight. Those tend to be loaded closer to the margins than passenger jets.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; 

My understanding is that it was headed to Hawaii, which would mean that it was also heavy with fuel.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dick Eagleson wrote: &#8220;<em>Probably didn’t help that this MD-11 was a cargo flight. Those tend to be loaded closer to the margins than passenger jets.</em>&#8221; </p>
<p>My understanding is that it was headed to Hawaii, which would mean that it was also heavy with fuel.</p>
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		<title>
		By: pzatchok		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624658</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pzatchok]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2025 01:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624658</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This crash was made far worse by the lack of run out and the industrial placement of the fueling tank field. If the possible crash are was regulated as a less flammable( no flammable chemical storage) industrial area the fires might not have been so bad.


I blame no one for the crash until I see what exactly happened. bad maintenance, bird ingestion, bad design, or overloaded.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This crash was made far worse by the lack of run out and the industrial placement of the fueling tank field. If the possible crash are was regulated as a less flammable( no flammable chemical storage) industrial area the fires might not have been so bad.</p>
<p>I blame no one for the crash until I see what exactly happened. bad maintenance, bird ingestion, bad design, or overloaded.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Eagleson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624652</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2025 23:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624652</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Probably didn&#039;t help that this MD-11 was a cargo flight.  Those tend to be loaded closer to the margins than passenger jets.

This was hardly the first time a DC-10/MD-11 came to grief after losing an outboard engine on takeoff that also did collateral damage.  There was that incident in Chicago back in 1979, for example.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably didn&#8217;t help that this MD-11 was a cargo flight.  Those tend to be loaded closer to the margins than passenger jets.</p>
<p>This was hardly the first time a DC-10/MD-11 came to grief after losing an outboard engine on takeoff that also did collateral damage.  There was that incident in Chicago back in 1979, for example.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Borgelt		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624628</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Borgelt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2025 06:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624628</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Blair Ivey. You are wrong. There were several ways to effectively turn off MCAS. It acted on the electrically driven trim system which can runaway at any time for various reasons so deactivation is a memory item. Turn off the two switches on back of centre console. Or manually hold the large trim wheel which rotates when trimming. The Indonesian aircraft had the problem the day before but they had a supernumerary in the jump seat who was a pilot, not a trained monkey, who turned off those switches. 
A MD11 should fly and climb away at V2 + with one engine fail. An explosion and fire means all bets are off and there was a suggestion that centre engine compressor stalled. That will kill you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blair Ivey. You are wrong. There were several ways to effectively turn off MCAS. It acted on the electrically driven trim system which can runaway at any time for various reasons so deactivation is a memory item. Turn off the two switches on back of centre console. Or manually hold the large trim wheel which rotates when trimming. The Indonesian aircraft had the problem the day before but they had a supernumerary in the jump seat who was a pilot, not a trained monkey, who turned off those switches.<br />
A MD11 should fly and climb away at V2 + with one engine fail. An explosion and fire means all bets are off and there was a suggestion that centre engine compressor stalled. That will kill you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Blair Ivey		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624623</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blair Ivey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2025 04:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624623</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeff Wright observed: &quot;I would think a three engine plane might have had enough thrust to get away&quot;

Not if a three-engine plane turns into a two-engine one right at takeoff.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff Wright observed: &#8220;I would think a three engine plane might have had enough thrust to get away&#8221;</p>
<p>Not if a three-engine plane turns into a two-engine one right at takeoff.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Blair Ivey		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624622</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blair Ivey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2025 04:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624622</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Larry: I have seen that video, and it seems an AI fantasy. All true. That was some fancy flying. Almost as impressive was that the aircraft returned to service. McDonald-Douglas Iron Works. 

I have read on the 737 MAX crashes: NTSB reports, in-type pilot experiences, and industry observations. The MCAS system was badly-designed to start. A system that alters the aircraft attitude was dependent on a single input. No redundancy. The sensor on which the system was dependent could fail in ways that would not be noticed during pre-flight, or could fail in-flight. The result was an uncontrollable aircraft, with an automatic system continuously forcing the nose down, and no way to turn it off. CVR depicts crews trying to find any way to fly the aircraft that doesn&#039;t result in a crash. 

Boeing very much did rush the system to production, as an incentive to airlines not interested in expensive crew training. The MCAS was designed to make the aircraft behave more like the previous generation, so pilots could fly the MAX the same way they flew other 737&#039;s. Boeing didn&#039;t test the system thoroughly, and did not inform the FAA, the airlines, or flight crews about failure modes. This is the kind of slipshod, profit-priority thinking that wouldn&#039;t have entered heads at Old Boeing. The lot of those responsible should be doing hard time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry: I have seen that video, and it seems an AI fantasy. All true. That was some fancy flying. Almost as impressive was that the aircraft returned to service. McDonald-Douglas Iron Works. </p>
<p>I have read on the 737 MAX crashes: NTSB reports, in-type pilot experiences, and industry observations. The MCAS system was badly-designed to start. A system that alters the aircraft attitude was dependent on a single input. No redundancy. The sensor on which the system was dependent could fail in ways that would not be noticed during pre-flight, or could fail in-flight. The result was an uncontrollable aircraft, with an automatic system continuously forcing the nose down, and no way to turn it off. CVR depicts crews trying to find any way to fly the aircraft that doesn&#8217;t result in a crash. </p>
<p>Boeing very much did rush the system to production, as an incentive to airlines not interested in expensive crew training. The MCAS was designed to make the aircraft behave more like the previous generation, so pilots could fly the MAX the same way they flew other 737&#8217;s. Boeing didn&#8217;t test the system thoroughly, and did not inform the FAA, the airlines, or flight crews about failure modes. This is the kind of slipshod, profit-priority thinking that wouldn&#8217;t have entered heads at Old Boeing. The lot of those responsible should be doing hard time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Larry		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624617</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Larry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2025 01:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624617</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@BillB,

Well, &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; can: &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxJcEz3h4tU&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow ugc&quot;&gt;F-15 Lands While Missing a Wing&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BillB,</p>
<p>Well, <i>some</i> can: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxJcEz3h4tU" rel="nofollow ugc">F-15 Lands While Missing a Wing</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: BillB		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624614</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BillB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2025 23:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624614</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The UPS plane that crashed lost its left wing from the engine outboard.  B-17s may have been able to fly with big chunks missing but modern aircraft can&#039;t.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The UPS plane that crashed lost its left wing from the engine outboard.  B-17s may have been able to fly with big chunks missing but modern aircraft can&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624611</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2025 22:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624611</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I see-my mistake---I would think a three engine plane might have had enough thrust to get away]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see-my mistake&#8212;I would think a three engine plane might have had enough thrust to get away</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624610</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2025 22:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624610</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No--this was a newer one
https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1985882916438602064
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQspPcBDbQz/?igsh=MXcweWNhM3c2cjBsZg%3D%3D]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No&#8211;this was a newer one<br />
<a href="https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1985882916438602064" rel="nofollow ugc">https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1985882916438602064</a><br />
<a href="https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQspPcBDbQz/?igsh=MXcweWNhM3c2cjBsZg%3D%3D" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQspPcBDbQz/?igsh=MXcweWNhM3c2cjBsZg%3D%3D</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Eagleson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624609</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2025 22:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624609</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeff Wright,

That MD-11 that crashed in Louisville was 34 years old.  The Boeing 737 MAXes that crashed were brand new planes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff Wright,</p>
<p>That MD-11 that crashed in Louisville was 34 years old.  The Boeing 737 MAXes that crashed were brand new planes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/judge-approves-plea-deal-related-to-boeings-malfeasance-that-caused-two-737-max-crashes-killing-346/#comment-1624603</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2025 22:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=118676#comment-1624603</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Another bloody crash of a DC-10 (MD-11, whatever)
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/ups-md-11-crash.50196/#post-847603


An alleged wartime quick-fix for a fighter...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uh764E6mUI]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another bloody crash of a DC-10 (MD-11, whatever)<br />
<a href="https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/ups-md-11-crash.50196/#post-847603" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/ups-md-11-crash.50196/#post-847603</a></p>
<p>An alleged wartime quick-fix for a fighter&#8230;<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uh764E6mUI" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uh764E6mUI</a></p>
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