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	Comments on: July 13, 2023 Quick space links	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419412</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2023 21:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419412</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[GLOW = Gross Lift Off Weight]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GLOW = Gross Lift Off Weight</p>
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		<title>
		By: John hare		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419260</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John hare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 20:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419260</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas,
Later on I think I see where you were coming from.  A 300 pound gain in the upper could very well be a 3,000 pound Or more hit on GLOW to lift the same payload. If that’s where you were, my apologies.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doubting Thomas,<br />
Later on I think I see where you were coming from.  A 300 pound gain in the upper could very well be a 3,000 pound Or more hit on GLOW to lift the same payload. If that’s where you were, my apologies.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doubting Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419257</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 20:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419257</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[John Hare - Thank you.  I appreciate your words from experience rather than just me mucking around in a internet based MIT calculator.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Hare &#8211; Thank you.  I appreciate your words from experience rather than just me mucking around in a internet based MIT calculator.</p>
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		<title>
		By: pawn		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419234</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pawn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 17:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419234</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Eastman,

Thank you for the info. I don&#039;t follow things that closely anymore so I am glad there is more info available about this problem.

You mentioned that this &quot;flight&quot; article had been stressed beyond mission criteria and had been through 15 tests already.

So this is their mission leader and they are going to launch essentially a test article and the AF is letting them get away with it in spite of all the other delays?

They built just one?

I&#039;m admittedly out of the loop now a days but I remember the big effort to minimize &quot;excessive&quot; testing on flight hardware.

I would very much appreciate it if you would further enlighten me on this issue if you can because I am somewhat confounded by this situation.

 Just posting a link to the resources that you have been using would be cool.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Eastman,</p>
<p>Thank you for the info. I don&#8217;t follow things that closely anymore so I am glad there is more info available about this problem.</p>
<p>You mentioned that this &#8220;flight&#8221; article had been stressed beyond mission criteria and had been through 15 tests already.</p>
<p>So this is their mission leader and they are going to launch essentially a test article and the AF is letting them get away with it in spite of all the other delays?</p>
<p>They built just one?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m admittedly out of the loop now a days but I remember the big effort to minimize &#8220;excessive&#8221; testing on flight hardware.</p>
<p>I would very much appreciate it if you would further enlighten me on this issue if you can because I am somewhat confounded by this situation.</p>
<p> Just posting a link to the resources that you have been using would be cool.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard M		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419231</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 16:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419231</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Going from 8 engines a year to 25 vehicles implies at least 50 engines per year (Vulcan) or 175 per year (New Glenn). Unless I misunderstand of course.&lt;/i&gt;

No, you are correct! My bad.

50 engines/year by 2025? Eeeek.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Going from 8 engines a year to 25 vehicles implies at least 50 engines per year (Vulcan) or 175 per year (New Glenn). Unless I misunderstand of course.</i></p>
<p>No, you are correct! My bad.</p>
<p>50 engines/year by 2025? Eeeek.</p>
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		<title>
		By: john hare		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419182</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john hare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 08:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419182</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas,
Upper stage mass gain should be a 1 to1 cost on payload. I see no way it can be more than 1 to 1. Not claiming it doesn&#039;t matter, just that I&#039;ve never seen a payload hit that is greater than the weight growth. The first stage mass ratio remains the same with 300 pounds less payload in the upper.

Richard M.
Going from 8 engines a year to 25 vehicles implies at least 50 engines per year (Vulcan) or 175 per year (New Glenn). Unless I misunderstand of course.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doubting Thomas,<br />
Upper stage mass gain should be a 1 to1 cost on payload. I see no way it can be more than 1 to 1. Not claiming it doesn&#8217;t matter, just that I&#8217;ve never seen a payload hit that is greater than the weight growth. The first stage mass ratio remains the same with 300 pounds less payload in the upper.</p>
<p>Richard M.<br />
Going from 8 engines a year to 25 vehicles implies at least 50 engines per year (Vulcan) or 175 per year (New Glenn). Unless I misunderstand of course.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard M		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419148</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 02:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419148</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[From Jeff Foust&#039;s story on ULA:

&lt;i&gt;[Tory Bruno] added that the production rate of the BE-4 is high enough that the test failure will not delay upcoming Vulcan launches. Blue Origin and other suppliers, along with ULA itself, are working to increase production to meet a rate of 25 vehicles a year by mid-2025, an initiative he called “25 in ’25.”

“I’m flattered by the attention we have now that a routine acceptance test was colorfully discussed on social media, but it really isn’t news,” he concluded.&lt;/i&gt;

https://spacenews.com/centaur-modifications-push-first-vulcan-launch-to-fourth-quarter/

For Tory&#039;s sake, I hope his aspiration is fulfilled. But color me skeptical that Blue Origin can ramp up from 8 to 25 in just a year.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Jeff Foust&#8217;s story on ULA:</p>
<p><i>[Tory Bruno] added that the production rate of the BE-4 is high enough that the test failure will not delay upcoming Vulcan launches. Blue Origin and other suppliers, along with ULA itself, are working to increase production to meet a rate of 25 vehicles a year by mid-2025, an initiative he called “25 in ’25.”</p>
<p>“I’m flattered by the attention we have now that a routine acceptance test was colorfully discussed on social media, but it really isn’t news,” he concluded.</i></p>
<p><a href="https://spacenews.com/centaur-modifications-push-first-vulcan-launch-to-fourth-quarter/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://spacenews.com/centaur-modifications-push-first-vulcan-launch-to-fourth-quarter/</a></p>
<p>For Tory&#8217;s sake, I hope his aspiration is fulfilled. But color me skeptical that Blue Origin can ramp up from 8 to 25 in just a year.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doubting Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419147</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 02:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419147</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Robert - Given that the 300 additional pounds needs to be added to the second stage, I think that the the hit to Vulcan payload reverberates to more than just 300 lbs.  This affects the mass fraction of the total rocket because both first and second stage mass fractions impacted.   Propellant is needed to lift propellant to lift the extra stage.  The rocket equation is a cruel mistress.

Using MITs Launcher Calculator on line calculator it looks to me like the impact is around 3,000 pounds of payload.  I had to make big assumptions, so I&#039;ll accept that I&#039;m wrong but I know the hit is more than just pound for pound.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert &#8211; Given that the 300 additional pounds needs to be added to the second stage, I think that the the hit to Vulcan payload reverberates to more than just 300 lbs.  This affects the mass fraction of the total rocket because both first and second stage mass fractions impacted.   Propellant is needed to lift propellant to lift the extra stage.  The rocket equation is a cruel mistress.</p>
<p>Using MITs Launcher Calculator on line calculator it looks to me like the impact is around 3,000 pounds of payload.  I had to make big assumptions, so I&#8217;ll accept that I&#8217;m wrong but I know the hit is more than just pound for pound.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419142</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 01:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419142</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[David M. Cook, I think Elon would say that you design for manufacturability from square one.

If you first design for something that works, then every change for better manufacturability feels like a step backward, and your bosses and your customers probably won&#039;t let you do it! Finally, you will give up and settle for what you have.

Of course, as many have observed concerning Elon, there are distinct advantages to not having a boss anywhere in the known universe, but having Gwynne Shotwell as CEO!

See &quot;Falcon Heavy&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David M. Cook, I think Elon would say that you design for manufacturability from square one.</p>
<p>If you first design for something that works, then every change for better manufacturability feels like a step backward, and your bosses and your customers probably won&#8217;t let you do it! Finally, you will give up and settle for what you have.</p>
<p>Of course, as many have observed concerning Elon, there are distinct advantages to not having a boss anywhere in the known universe, but having Gwynne Shotwell as CEO!</p>
<p>See &#8220;Falcon Heavy&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419134</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 01:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419134</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419131&quot;&gt;David M. Cook&lt;/a&gt;.

David M. Cook: Many here and elsewhere throughout the space world have been &lt;em&gt;talking&lt;/em&gt; now for years of the &lt;em&gt;need&lt;/em&gt; for Blue Origin to shift from the design to the mass production stage. At no point was there any indication from Blue Origin that it made the shift.

This tweet from Tory Bruno strongly suggests the company never did. Another bad sign about that company&#039;s management.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419131">David M. Cook</a>.</p>
<p>David M. Cook: Many here and elsewhere throughout the space world have been <em>talking</em> now for years of the <em>need</em> for Blue Origin to shift from the design to the mass production stage. At no point was there any indication from Blue Origin that it made the shift.</p>
<p>This tweet from Tory Bruno strongly suggests the company never did. Another bad sign about that company&#8217;s management.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David M. Cook		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419131</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David M. Cook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2023 00:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419131</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I thought BO re-designed that engine to make it easier to manufacture?  Shouldn‘t we be seeing the results of this effort?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought BO re-designed that engine to make it easier to manufacture?  Shouldn‘t we be seeing the results of this effort?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419123</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2023 23:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419123</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Looks like that SpaceX Raptor rate is two years old, so it must be a lot greater than one every two days by now!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like that SpaceX Raptor rate is two years old, so it must be a lot greater than one every two days by now!</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Eastman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/july-13-2023-quick-space-links/#comment-1419120</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Eastman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2023 23:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=96682#comment-1419120</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[From everything I&#039;ve seen, it might be more accurate to say that Centaur V is &quot;Centaur III derived&quot;, as SLS is &quot;shuttle derived&quot;. Yes, It&#039;s a thin steel balloon pressurized hydrolox stage with RL-10 engines, just like the ones that have flown hundreds of missions. But Centaur III is 3.05 meters in diameter and uses 0.020&quot; thickness steel in most places. Centaur V is 5.4m in diameter, and the thickness of the steel varies. Apparently where the top of the tank is welded to the tank dome, the steel is thin enough that while the steel itself is fine for the load, the weld itself wasn&#039;t good enough, so they&#039;re wrapping another thin piece of steel in that spot to allow more weld surface.

It has been pointed out that the failure was on the 15th test of this particular tank which had therefore been stressed far beyond normal mission criteria, and it&#039;s entirely possible that the problem didn&#039;t actually have to be fixed. But either that public info is a bit optimistic, or they are being cautious in the face of the blowback they would face if they didn&#039;t fix this and it did in fact fail on a mission.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From everything I&#8217;ve seen, it might be more accurate to say that Centaur V is &#8220;Centaur III derived&#8221;, as SLS is &#8220;shuttle derived&#8221;. Yes, It&#8217;s a thin steel balloon pressurized hydrolox stage with RL-10 engines, just like the ones that have flown hundreds of missions. But Centaur III is 3.05 meters in diameter and uses 0.020&#8243; thickness steel in most places. Centaur V is 5.4m in diameter, and the thickness of the steel varies. Apparently where the top of the tank is welded to the tank dome, the steel is thin enough that while the steel itself is fine for the load, the weld itself wasn&#8217;t good enough, so they&#8217;re wrapping another thin piece of steel in that spot to allow more weld surface.</p>
<p>It has been pointed out that the failure was on the 15th test of this particular tank which had therefore been stressed far beyond normal mission criteria, and it&#8217;s entirely possible that the problem didn&#8217;t actually have to be fixed. But either that public info is a bit optimistic, or they are being cautious in the face of the blowback they would face if they didn&#8217;t fix this and it did in fact fail on a mission.</p>
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