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	Comments on: NASA endorsement allows SpaceX to shift focus to Starship	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Star Bird		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082503</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Star Bird]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2020 22:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082503</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When  can  we   get  to  use  a Shuttle Craft   or  Runabout?   Better   raise those  Deflector  Shields and   ready the Phaser Banks  and  Photon Torpedos]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When  can  we   get  to  use  a Shuttle Craft   or  Runabout?   Better   raise those  Deflector  Shields and   ready the Phaser Banks  and  Photon Torpedos</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082493</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082493</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082488&quot;&gt;The (Deplorable) MUSEman&lt;/a&gt;.

The (Deplorable) MUSEman wrote, &quot;the government gives over $5,000,000,000 to a wealthy businessman to create industries out of whole cloth without turning an annual profit on any of them.&quot;

First, your numbers are wrong. SpaceX&#039;s contract with NASA for crew Dragon flights is for $2.6 billion, not $5 billion. Second, the contract was not for something &quot;out of whole cloth,&quot; that did not exist. Both Falcon 9 and Dragon existed and were flying and profitable when the contract was awarded. NASA merely wished some upgrades before they&#039;d put their passengers on them.

Third and most important, since 2014 SpaceX has completed 81 successful launches. I haven&#039;t run the precise numbers, but probably only about 25% were for either NASA or the military. That means 75% were commercial, at a launch price ranging from $50 to $67 million. Even at the lower figure, this means SpaceX made about $3 billion on these launches alone. Probably more.

SpaceX is not being subsidized by the government. It is offering a product &lt;em&gt;to&lt;/em&gt; the government, which is better than anything anyone else is offering, and the government is buying it, as a customer. You should be aware of the difference.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082488">The (Deplorable) MUSEman</a>.</p>
<p>The (Deplorable) MUSEman wrote, &#8220;the government gives over $5,000,000,000 to a wealthy businessman to create industries out of whole cloth without turning an annual profit on any of them.&#8221;</p>
<p>First, your numbers are wrong. SpaceX&#8217;s contract with NASA for crew Dragon flights is for $2.6 billion, not $5 billion. Second, the contract was not for something &#8220;out of whole cloth,&#8221; that did not exist. Both Falcon 9 and Dragon existed and were flying and profitable when the contract was awarded. NASA merely wished some upgrades before they&#8217;d put their passengers on them.</p>
<p>Third and most important, since 2014 SpaceX has completed 81 successful launches. I haven&#8217;t run the precise numbers, but probably only about 25% were for either NASA or the military. That means 75% were commercial, at a launch price ranging from $50 to $67 million. Even at the lower figure, this means SpaceX made about $3 billion on these launches alone. Probably more.</p>
<p>SpaceX is not being subsidized by the government. It is offering a product <em>to</em> the government, which is better than anything anyone else is offering, and the government is buying it, as a customer. You should be aware of the difference.</p>
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		<title>
		By: The (Deplorable) MUSEman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082488</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The (Deplorable) MUSEman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082488</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@LocalFluff

&quot;Elon Musk is like Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden combined (their offspring?) in Atlas Shrugged.&quot;?

I don&#039;t recall the part of &quot;Atlas Shrugged&quot; where the government gives over $5,000,000,000 to a wealthy  businessman to create industries out of whole cloth without turning an annual profit on any of them.

Just saying.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@LocalFluff</p>
<p>&#8220;Elon Musk is like Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden combined (their offspring?) in Atlas Shrugged.&#8221;?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t recall the part of &#8220;Atlas Shrugged&#8221; where the government gives over $5,000,000,000 to a wealthy  businessman to create industries out of whole cloth without turning an annual profit on any of them.</p>
<p>Just saying.</p>
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		By: sippin_bourbon		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082458</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sippin_bourbon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2020 12:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082458</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Regarding the in orbit refueling...

You must still weigh in the cost of getting the gas to the gas station.

Yes the prime vehicle can remain in orbit, and then proceed with it&#039;s presumed deep space journey, but the there is still the cost to get the propellant up there in the first place.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the in orbit refueling&#8230;</p>
<p>You must still weigh in the cost of getting the gas to the gas station.</p>
<p>Yes the prime vehicle can remain in orbit, and then proceed with it&#8217;s presumed deep space journey, but the there is still the cost to get the propellant up there in the first place.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Eagleson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082429</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082429</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The second abandonment of the notional Terminal Island Starship plant was, indeed, not a consequence of Elon&#039;s recent tiff with Alameda County about re-opening Fremont - it was occasioned by the initial closure order for Fremont just a few days before the date on the formal letter of lease cancellation.  Given that the new deal for the Terminal Island site had been concluded barely a month before &lt;i&gt;that,&lt;/i&gt; no other rational interpretation is possible.

So long as Hawthorne had a national security exemption from Covid-19-related closure orders, SpaceX could also turn out smaller Starship parts there - and continues to do so.  But a plant stood up solely to make Starship hulls would likely have been subject to the same open-ended closure order as Fremont.  So Elon elected to minimize his suddenly much more highly probable future losses and cancel ASAP.

The ultimate fallout from the Fremont re-opening dust-up in May is likely to be a longer-term de-emphasis, or even full withdrawal, of Musk-related manufacturing enterprise from CA.  If McGregor suddenly starts &lt;i&gt;producing&lt;/i&gt; Raptors as well as testing them and/or there is suddenly a new &quot;tent&quot; at Boca Chica cranking out Starship aero-surfaces, these will be early indicators that Musk&#039;s corporate footprint in CA is headed for zero.

Musk&#039;s recent memo establishing Starship&#039;s top priority within the company does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; mean &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; development will now focus on Starship, just that it will have first call on engineering resources.  There is still Dragon XL and other comparatively minor development efforts to continue and this will be done.  But these other things are mostly less time-critical than Starship.

Now that NASA has some weight resting on Starship as well, this new prioritization will also be in line with NASA&#039;s interests.  That is, at least in part, probably behind NASA&#039;s recent contract mod to allow reused hardware on USCV missions to ISS.  The other part of the decision is likely NASA&#039;s insider knowledge that Boeing isn&#039;t going to be making any USCV runs of its own for at least two years.  If SpaceX is allowed to conduct such missions with used hardware, it can keep Crew/Cargo D2 production at extant rates, shift the refurb workforce smoothly from Dragon 1 to the Dragon 2s and fly extra USCV missions in Boeing&#039;s place for as long as required without needing to shift any resources away from Starship.  That wouldn&#039;t have been possible if SpaceX was going to have to do double duty on USCV runs with the previous &quot;new-vehicles-only&quot; policy in place.

This is just one more bit of evidence that SpaceX, over the past 6 months, has decisively replaced Boeing as foremost in NASA&#039;s corporate affections.  Great things have already come of this.  A whole lot more is sure to follow.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The second abandonment of the notional Terminal Island Starship plant was, indeed, not a consequence of Elon&#8217;s recent tiff with Alameda County about re-opening Fremont &#8211; it was occasioned by the initial closure order for Fremont just a few days before the date on the formal letter of lease cancellation.  Given that the new deal for the Terminal Island site had been concluded barely a month before <i>that,</i> no other rational interpretation is possible.</p>
<p>So long as Hawthorne had a national security exemption from Covid-19-related closure orders, SpaceX could also turn out smaller Starship parts there &#8211; and continues to do so.  But a plant stood up solely to make Starship hulls would likely have been subject to the same open-ended closure order as Fremont.  So Elon elected to minimize his suddenly much more highly probable future losses and cancel ASAP.</p>
<p>The ultimate fallout from the Fremont re-opening dust-up in May is likely to be a longer-term de-emphasis, or even full withdrawal, of Musk-related manufacturing enterprise from CA.  If McGregor suddenly starts <i>producing</i> Raptors as well as testing them and/or there is suddenly a new &#8220;tent&#8221; at Boca Chica cranking out Starship aero-surfaces, these will be early indicators that Musk&#8217;s corporate footprint in CA is headed for zero.</p>
<p>Musk&#8217;s recent memo establishing Starship&#8217;s top priority within the company does <i>not</i> mean <i>all</i> development will now focus on Starship, just that it will have first call on engineering resources.  There is still Dragon XL and other comparatively minor development efforts to continue and this will be done.  But these other things are mostly less time-critical than Starship.</p>
<p>Now that NASA has some weight resting on Starship as well, this new prioritization will also be in line with NASA&#8217;s interests.  That is, at least in part, probably behind NASA&#8217;s recent contract mod to allow reused hardware on USCV missions to ISS.  The other part of the decision is likely NASA&#8217;s insider knowledge that Boeing isn&#8217;t going to be making any USCV runs of its own for at least two years.  If SpaceX is allowed to conduct such missions with used hardware, it can keep Crew/Cargo D2 production at extant rates, shift the refurb workforce smoothly from Dragon 1 to the Dragon 2s and fly extra USCV missions in Boeing&#8217;s place for as long as required without needing to shift any resources away from Starship.  That wouldn&#8217;t have been possible if SpaceX was going to have to do double duty on USCV runs with the previous &#8220;new-vehicles-only&#8221; policy in place.</p>
<p>This is just one more bit of evidence that SpaceX, over the past 6 months, has decisively replaced Boeing as foremost in NASA&#8217;s corporate affections.  Great things have already come of this.  A whole lot more is sure to follow.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt in AZ		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082408</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt in AZ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082408</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune: &quot;If Spacex can master on-orbit refueling as they have (nearly) mastered relanding of boosters...&quot;

If that&#039;s the case, lets just hope SpaceX tests refuelling at out a low enough orbit that any explosive debris reenters quickly!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray Van Dune: &#8220;If Spacex can master on-orbit refueling as they have (nearly) mastered relanding of boosters&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>If that&#8217;s the case, lets just hope SpaceX tests refuelling at out a low enough orbit that any explosive debris reenters quickly!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082401</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 19:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082401</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Most people do not realize that once you are in Earth orbit, you are most of the way to everywhere in the solar system - not in terms of distance of course, but in terms of energy required. We live at the bottom of a huge gravity well, and once we climb out of it, the sky&#039;s the limit... we&#039;ll, actually It&#039;s not!

If Spacex can master on-orbit refueling as they have (nearly) mastered relanding of boosters, ships like Starship will be able to roam the planets, landing on and exploring them and returning to Earth orbit, in many instances without using throwaway stages. With in-situ refueling we could see a golden age of space travel that would make Heinlein smile!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most people do not realize that once you are in Earth orbit, you are most of the way to everywhere in the solar system &#8211; not in terms of distance of course, but in terms of energy required. We live at the bottom of a huge gravity well, and once we climb out of it, the sky&#8217;s the limit&#8230; we&#8217;ll, actually It&#8217;s not!</p>
<p>If Spacex can master on-orbit refueling as they have (nearly) mastered relanding of boosters, ships like Starship will be able to roam the planets, landing on and exploring them and returning to Earth orbit, in many instances without using throwaway stages. With in-situ refueling we could see a golden age of space travel that would make Heinlein smile!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matthew Straney		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082400</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Straney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 19:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082400</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The year is 2024, its President Trumps last year in office.  Democrats in Congress and Bureaucrats have stonewalled his boots on the Moon because they hate to see someone be successful.  Trump show pay space X through the government or his own pockets to Launch something on the moon.  On Falcon or Starships. Would be great if it was a Starship just so they could try their luck at landing.  It would be there for later sightseeing (Cough Discount Elon! cough)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The year is 2024, its President Trumps last year in office.  Democrats in Congress and Bureaucrats have stonewalled his boots on the Moon because they hate to see someone be successful.  Trump show pay space X through the government or his own pockets to Launch something on the moon.  On Falcon or Starships. Would be great if it was a Starship just so they could try their luck at landing.  It would be there for later sightseeing (Cough Discount Elon! cough)</p>
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		<title>
		By: LocalFluff		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082396</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LocalFluff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 19:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082396</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Elon Musk is like Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden combined (their offspring?) in Atlas Shrugged. But with rockets instead of trains and with a very much more supportive society.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elon Musk is like Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden combined (their offspring?) in Atlas Shrugged. But with rockets instead of trains and with a very much more supportive society.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jburn		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082389</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jburn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082389</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The strong shift of focus to Starship is really significant. Musk might realize his goal of landing a Starship on the moon and mars in 4-5 years. Possibly manned to one of those locations. A stunning possibility.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The strong shift of focus to Starship is really significant. Musk might realize his goal of landing a Starship on the moon and mars in 4-5 years. Possibly manned to one of those locations. A stunning possibility.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082388</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082388</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would like to see Dragon recovered &quot;dry&quot; along with reuse for manned flights. That could mean catching it in a net like the fairings, airbags + retro thrust from Super Dracos, or even propulsive landing, although the last would probably be too big an investment in the Dragon at this point.

Ps. Spacex HQ is in Hawthorn, California. They build F9 and Dragons there, so maybe it is phased out an HQ moves to... Houston? Orlando? DC?  But they build Raptors there too...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to see Dragon recovered &#8220;dry&#8221; along with reuse for manned flights. That could mean catching it in a net like the fairings, airbags + retro thrust from Super Dracos, or even propulsive landing, although the last would probably be too big an investment in the Dragon at this point.</p>
<p>Ps. Spacex HQ is in Hawthorn, California. They build F9 and Dragons there, so maybe it is phased out an HQ moves to&#8230; Houston? Orlando? DC?  But they build Raptors there too&#8230;</p>
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		By: jburn		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082386</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jburn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082386</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As side note, I&#039;d read somewhere that Elon Musk was also selling his homes in California. Good timing on his part, the local government agencies are completely overwhelmed and distracted.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As side note, I&#8217;d read somewhere that Elon Musk was also selling his homes in California. Good timing on his part, the local government agencies are completely overwhelmed and distracted.</p>
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		<title>
		By: geoffc		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/nasa-endorsement-allows-spacex-to-shift-focus-to-starship/#comment-1082385</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geoffc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=66406#comment-1082385</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The work and the pace of it, happening in Boca Chica is already quite astounding... SN4 was just tested to destruction and SN5 is almost complete, SN6 is partially complete, SN7 parts are assembled... 

Faster than pretty much anything we have seen in rocketry (ever?).

Even more/faster is going to be awesome!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The work and the pace of it, happening in Boca Chica is already quite astounding&#8230; SN4 was just tested to destruction and SN5 is almost complete, SN6 is partially complete, SN7 parts are assembled&#8230; </p>
<p>Faster than pretty much anything we have seen in rocketry (ever?).</p>
<p>Even more/faster is going to be awesome!</p>
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