<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: SpaceX&#8217;s Grasshopper rocket successfully did a vertical take off and landing to a height of 130 feet last week.	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:18:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: mpthompson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-78754</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mpthompson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-78754</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have to assume that the folks at SpaceX have run the numbers and the math works out with respect to having enough remaining fuel to slow and land a booster.  If so, it then turns into an engineering effort to prove out the math.  Something SpaceX seems to be making good progress on.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to assume that the folks at SpaceX have run the numbers and the math works out with respect to having enough remaining fuel to slow and land a booster.  If so, it then turns into an engineering effort to prove out the math.  Something SpaceX seems to be making good progress on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Chris Kirkendall		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-77654</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Kirkendall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2012 02:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-77654</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: The first stage mass is mostly fuel. Once its burn is completed, the first stage is much much lighter, like only a few percent of the mass it was...

Right - good point...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: The first stage mass is mostly fuel. Once its burn is completed, the first stage is much much lighter, like only a few percent of the mass it was&#8230;</p>
<p>Right &#8211; good point&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: wade		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-77397</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-77397</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[i agree libs0n, and further, these are the concepts of rocketry long Before any space programs were even  tried.   watch an old space movie, for instance, the 1955 film &quot; the Conquest of Space&quot; .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i agree libs0n, and further, these are the concepts of rocketry long Before any space programs were even  tried.   watch an old space movie, for instance, the 1955 film &#8221; the Conquest of Space&#8221; .</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: libs0n		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-77030</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[libs0n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 23:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-77030</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m just a layman, and I&#039;m bound to be a bit wrong, but this is how I understand it.

1. The first stage dry mass doesn&#039;t go to orbit, just part of the way, that means only a small part of the deltav is proportioned to speed it up.  That means it isn&#039;t traveling as fast when it needs to be slowed down.  It also means that additional mass added to the first stage for recovery doesn&#039;t exact a full 1:1 payload costs, but something like 10 to 1, or adding 10 pounds to the mass of the first stage booster only costs 1 pound reduction in orbital payload.

2. The first stage mass is mostly fuel.  Once its burn is completed, the first stage is much much lighter, like only a few percent of the mass it was.  It is basically an empty fuel tank.  This is the dry mass.  That means it costs much less in fuel to decelerate and land it.  Using the estimated first stage mass figures at spacelaunchreport.com, a Falcon 9 weighs 419 tonnes at liftoff, but only 28 tonnes at burnout.  

The rocket is also very overpowered for that duty, since the engine thrust is sized to get the whole fueled rocket off the ground.

So you are only returning a ~28 tonne mass(plus whatever recovery mass is necessary) to the ground, and the fuel and gear for that, as stated in point 1, doesn&#039;t extract a full penalty from your orbital figures.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just a layman, and I&#8217;m bound to be a bit wrong, but this is how I understand it.</p>
<p>1. The first stage dry mass doesn&#8217;t go to orbit, just part of the way, that means only a small part of the deltav is proportioned to speed it up.  That means it isn&#8217;t traveling as fast when it needs to be slowed down.  It also means that additional mass added to the first stage for recovery doesn&#8217;t exact a full 1:1 payload costs, but something like 10 to 1, or adding 10 pounds to the mass of the first stage booster only costs 1 pound reduction in orbital payload.</p>
<p>2. The first stage mass is mostly fuel.  Once its burn is completed, the first stage is much much lighter, like only a few percent of the mass it was.  It is basically an empty fuel tank.  This is the dry mass.  That means it costs much less in fuel to decelerate and land it.  Using the estimated first stage mass figures at spacelaunchreport.com, a Falcon 9 weighs 419 tonnes at liftoff, but only 28 tonnes at burnout.  </p>
<p>The rocket is also very overpowered for that duty, since the engine thrust is sized to get the whole fueled rocket off the ground.</p>
<p>So you are only returning a ~28 tonne mass(plus whatever recovery mass is necessary) to the ground, and the fuel and gear for that, as stated in point 1, doesn&#8217;t extract a full penalty from your orbital figures.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Chris Kirkendall		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-77027</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Kirkendall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 22:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-77027</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, obviously a lot to be worked out here, but at least it looks like the basic concept works. Whether it will become practical is another matter, but it&#039;s great to see someone trying. Many things we can do today take for granted once looked impossible or impractical, but someone had the courage to dream &#038; actually try...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, obviously a lot to be worked out here, but at least it looks like the basic concept works. Whether it will become practical is another matter, but it&#8217;s great to see someone trying. Many things we can do today take for granted once looked impossible or impractical, but someone had the courage to dream &amp; actually try&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Tom Billings		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76953</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Billings]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 06:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76953</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76931&quot;&gt;wade&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;isn’t This what von Braun and others designed back in the ’50s ? those designs proved to be too large to be cost efficient and were scrapped.&quot;

No.

The stages of the launch vehicles of &quot;Projekt Mars&quot;, and other pre-sputnik proposals, were using different propellants, and were using wings to fly back into the atmosphere. They were hoping that enough wing surface could lower the heat load on the vehicle. It turned out that the wings that could do that enough were far too heavy, and the payload too small. In addition, the nitric acid oxidizer and hydrazine fuels were too corrosive on the one hand, and too poisonous on the other for continual rapid turnaround of vehicles.

In addition, until Vostok1 flew, there was no money in either ABMA&#039;s or later NASA&#039;s budget to build anything like that, anyway.

The vehicles cancelled in the Saturn program were steps between Saturn 1 and Saturn 5 that would push the Moon Landing back into the 1970s. Unfortunately, the Earth-Orbit Rendezvous techniques looked like they *might* do the same, and so they were cancelled as well. By the time Gemini 3 flew, Lunar Orbit Rendezvous was the assumed mode of flight.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76931">wade</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;isn’t This what von Braun and others designed back in the ’50s ? those designs proved to be too large to be cost efficient and were scrapped.&#8221;</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>The stages of the launch vehicles of &#8220;Projekt Mars&#8221;, and other pre-sputnik proposals, were using different propellants, and were using wings to fly back into the atmosphere. They were hoping that enough wing surface could lower the heat load on the vehicle. It turned out that the wings that could do that enough were far too heavy, and the payload too small. In addition, the nitric acid oxidizer and hydrazine fuels were too corrosive on the one hand, and too poisonous on the other for continual rapid turnaround of vehicles.</p>
<p>In addition, until Vostok1 flew, there was no money in either ABMA&#8217;s or later NASA&#8217;s budget to build anything like that, anyway.</p>
<p>The vehicles cancelled in the Saturn program were steps between Saturn 1 and Saturn 5 that would push the Moon Landing back into the 1970s. Unfortunately, the Earth-Orbit Rendezvous techniques looked like they *might* do the same, and so they were cancelled as well. By the time Gemini 3 flew, Lunar Orbit Rendezvous was the assumed mode of flight.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Blair Ivey		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76940</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blair Ivey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 04:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76940</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That is cool, but the coolest part of that video isn&#039;t the engineering, it&#039;s that it&#039;s being done by private enterprise.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is cool, but the coolest part of that video isn&#8217;t the engineering, it&#8217;s that it&#8217;s being done by private enterprise.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: wade		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76931</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 02:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76931</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[isn&#039;t This what von Braun  and others designed back in the &#039;50s ?  those designs proved to be too large to be  cost efficient and were scrapped.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>isn&#8217;t This what von Braun  and others designed back in the &#8217;50s ?  those designs proved to be too large to be  cost efficient and were scrapped.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: DougSpace		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76891</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DougSpace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 20:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76891</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878&quot;&gt;A. Feit&lt;/a&gt;.

Regarding strap-ons, if you use crossfeed, then the strap-ons will detach earlier and so require less fuel to cancel vertical velocity.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878">A. Feit</a>.</p>
<p>Regarding strap-ons, if you use crossfeed, then the strap-ons will detach earlier and so require less fuel to cancel vertical velocity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: DougSpace		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76890</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DougSpace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 19:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76890</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878&quot;&gt;A. Feit&lt;/a&gt;.

Yes, and it would seem that one wouldn&#039;t have to carry enough fuel to cancel all of the velocity, just enough to prevent too much heating on reentry, use parachutes to void much of the verticle velocity and then just a bit more at the very end.  Perhaps this is why, in their reusability video they don&#039;t show the first stage coming down to the cape but only the last portion (after the parachute disconnected).

Also, initial reusability doesn&#039;t have to be 100% in order to make a big difference.  Even if only the first stage were reusable and if it didn&#039;t cancel horizontal velocity but landed on a ship or an island, that would still significantly lower their launch costs and make them much more competitive than others.  This would give them more time and money to perfect reusability further.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878">A. Feit</a>.</p>
<p>Yes, and it would seem that one wouldn&#8217;t have to carry enough fuel to cancel all of the velocity, just enough to prevent too much heating on reentry, use parachutes to void much of the verticle velocity and then just a bit more at the very end.  Perhaps this is why, in their reusability video they don&#8217;t show the first stage coming down to the cape but only the last portion (after the parachute disconnected).</p>
<p>Also, initial reusability doesn&#8217;t have to be 100% in order to make a big difference.  Even if only the first stage were reusable and if it didn&#8217;t cancel horizontal velocity but landed on a ship or an island, that would still significantly lower their launch costs and make them much more competitive than others.  This would give them more time and money to perfect reusability further.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76883</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 18:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76883</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878&quot;&gt;A. Feit&lt;/a&gt;.

Hey, I hope you are right.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878">A. Feit</a>.</p>
<p>Hey, I hope you are right.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: A. Feit		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76878</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A. Feit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76878</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You&#039;ve just got to run the numbers. Need more fuel, fly more strap-ons. They are reusable anyway. Who said 4, 6 or even 8 strap-ons are not viable? But like I said, you&#039;ve got to run the numbers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve just got to run the numbers. Need more fuel, fly more strap-ons. They are reusable anyway. Who said 4, 6 or even 8 strap-ons are not viable? But like I said, you&#8217;ve got to run the numbers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Paul Lake		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/spacexs-grasshopper-rocket-successfully-did-a-vertical-take-off-and-landing-to-a-height-of-130-feet-last-week/#comment-76877</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Lake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://behindtheblack.com/?p=21206#comment-76877</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure we both hope your skepticism will be proven unwarranted.  A reusable launch system must be achieved to enable human settlement into space.  Are there better ideas being worked on right now?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure we both hope your skepticism will be proven unwarranted.  A reusable launch system must be achieved to enable human settlement into space.  Are there better ideas being worked on right now?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
