https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/17/look-how-far-weve-come-apart/

You have to go back to pre-Wilsonian days to get away from the constant attacks by socialists of whatever stripe against their opponents–and only then because they hadn’t really caught on in the US before then (and, of course, there were plenty of *other* reasons for politicians and journalists to sling mud and make up lies back then, but at least the federal government had a lot less power to bother anyone who just wanted to live their life out in peace and privacy). To the extent that there was respect across the aisle in the ’80s, it generally involved either bipartisan pork, or Blue Dog Democrats (most of whom either retired, were defeated, or switched parties after the 1994 mini-revolution).

It seems to me that the past is being reinvented before our eyes (“He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”). We’ve seen exactly the same thing every election cycle for decades: the current Republican candidate is Hitler reborn, a racist and misogynist who is out to “put y’all in chains”, is in bed with billionaire businessmen, and has no redeeming values whatsoever… unlike the *previous* candidate, who is suddenly enjoying a strange new respect (due to the fact that the previous candidate is no longer an obstacle in the neo-feudalists’ path). Trump might prove to be an exception, because he’s remained vocal and active, but if he doesn’t run, I would not be entirely shocked to see journalists writing hit pieces on the eventual candidate claiming how much “worse” they are than Trump, who will suddenly be considered “not all that bad”.

I don’t, I try to look at this in pragmatic terms, not ideological or moralistic terms.

DefendUSA: Gee, it sounds like you had the flu, and treated it like we have always treated someone who gets the flu.

The one lack in your treatment was not using one of several well-known medicines that appear to help mitigate the Wuhan flu’s worst symptoms. Their positive effect remains somewhat unproven, but they have been approved for human use for quite awhile, and are known to be safe to use. No harm in adding them to the mix.

DefendUSA: Your comment went into moderation because you had an obscenity in it, childishly hidden with one asterisk. That doesn’t fly, and I have deleted it. You are very welcome to comment here, but please follow the rules.

When I say “successful lockdowns were never an option” for most countries, I mean as a method for eliminating the virus, lockdowns have been successful in getting R well below 1.

NZ went into lockdown 13 days ago after a case of Delta from Australia got through the system, cases climbed to a peak of 83 yesterday, down to 53 new cases today, a total of 547 community cases in that time. Cases had built steadily through to yesterdays peak.

The new cases are almost entirely household contacts of existing cases. The lockdown has stopped transmission between household almost completely. In so doing, those doing the contact tracing have been able to get ahead of the spread, advise those that are at risk of having been exposed to the disease that they may be infected and infectious. Without the lockdown those possibly infected people would have carried on their usual routines and likely have passed the infection along. Pre-symptomatic transmission, especially with this Delta strain – which has far higher viral counts in the upper respiratory system – has been the primary means of transmission during this outbreak. Put simply: people were spreading the virus without even knowing they themselves were infected.

Testing of people in the infected areas has been extensive with hundreds of thousands of tests taken along side the contact tracing to ring fence the outbreak.

The difference between a no lockdown and a lockdown is the difference between legally enforceable road rules and optional road rules, while 90% of people, especially the little old ladies, might stick to the rules if optional, it’s the 10% that don’t that ruin it for everyone else. With covid it’s even worse than that because there are lots of younger people who think it’s nothing, or at least nothing to them, the on road equivalent to having the drunks driving Mack trucks – with no penalties if their actions lead to other people deaths.

It would be really nice if the spread could be eliminated without lockdowns, I don’t think it’s possible, the virus doesn’t play to those rules, NZ has eliminated it 3 times from the community over the last 18 months.

Voluntary social distancing can slow the spread, of that there’s no doubt, but slowing it is all that’s happened. Likely in most countries successful lockdowns were never an option, poverty, urban density, multiple jurisdictions without the same borders and international contacts that could not in practical terms suspended making elimination not an option.

It wasn’t lockdowns that reduced the number of diagnosed infections, it was contact tracing. Locking down the uninfected was just a successful power play over citizens that are now amenable to tyranny. They gave up liberty for security and now have neither, as they are still afraid of the flu and are still being controlled.

I’m not a fan of the dead governing, the living should stand up for themselves.

We are not isolated from the rest of the world, are you not part of “the rest of the world” from my perspective? Any kiwi can travel overseas whenever they want.

The question is … how long will it be, before your leadership finds a reason to engage in such encroachment, as we are seeing some attempt here outside of NASA, via lawsuits and the FAA, to impose their view of the world upon SpaceX?

What is stopping them from such overreach?

Just because they haven’t engaged in it (yet), doesn’t mean that such encroachment is not a threat … all it takes is changing a few people with a different agenda.

Unalienable rights are to be kept beyond the reach of even a majority vote, if they are truly unalienable. All you are doing in your social technocracy, is choosing to submit to a different set of masters in the name of “unity”. Masters who can’t tell YOU and your needs apart from a statistic or a poll (such as the stats on economic freedom you keep citing).

You, like I and nearly all of the Western world, have grown up with social technocracy – often called social democracy, but technocracy is a better descriptor – as the norm. I think that is why many don’t see how vulnerable they are in their submission to it. It took me nearly fifty years to perceive how it leads to a banality of decline, where we keep repeating the same top-down approaches in the pursuit of different results … the definition of insanity … as those who mouth conservative platitudes can’t make a coherent and convincing case as to why they should be adopted, even as common sense leads one to the coherent/convincing case: these alleged elites don’t know YOU well enough to micromanage your life the way they seek to do in the name of the “common good”.

Let me make it clear, I do not view Trump as a Messiah … the One I already have is sufficient. I view Trump like Johnny Rico’s superiors in the cinematic Starship Troopers viewed Johnny: “You have the job, until you’re killed or I find someone better.” And at this time, I don’t see anyone better in terms of respecting me as a free man, and expecting me to take the responsibility to get through life making my own decisions.

Look closely, and you will see that the governance in the Western world is dominated by those who value the reputation of their technocratic institutions and/or civility, more than they value the liberty of their people. Even in your own nation. Otherwise, your leaders would not have tried to isolate you from the rest of the world over COVID.

This is not true. Even in (and especially in) a winner take all contest, MOST voters in any state get all electoral votes cast for their candidate, and ALL voters certainly cannot be ignored by any candidate lest they lose all these winner take all votes [this has been well known by political professionals in the US for a long time]. This is a country of individual independent STATES and States rights, the United STATES of America. The States are generally democratic…the Country is a Republic and not a single monolithic pure democracy. There is a difference. In a pure democracy 50.1 % of the people can in theory “democratically” vote to enslave (literally or figuratively) the other 49.9% . In a winner take all of many states, this is much harder to do. And in a Constitutional Democracy it often takes super-majorities to change certain laws or constitutional amendments, which is also not a “pure democratic” system, thankfully.

It is true that the winner of the total popular vote sometimes does not win. This simply means populous urban leftist quagmires such as in California and New York cannot foist themselves on the rest of the country quite as easily as in a “pure democracy”, which is a small comfort.

But to say “…MOST voters count for naught, MOST voters in the US have essentially ZERO electoral power when it comes to deciding who is to be president. So they can be IGNORED.” is certainly hyperbole.

A much greater problem is voter fraud in voting systems in which there is little verification of valid votes cast and counted.

That individuals are the rightful owners of their own lives and therefore have inherent freedoms and responsibilities.
That the proper purpose of government is to protect such freedoms and not to assume such responsibilities.[18]
All people should be equal before the law regardless of race, gender, sexuality, religion or political belief.[19]
Freedom of expression is essential to a free society and must be promoted, protected and preserved without restriction other than for incitement, criminal nuisance or defamation.[19]
Citizenship and permanent residency should be subject to applicants affirming New Zealand’s values.[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_New_Zealand

> Put elites on pedestals of worship and trust.

No, you’ve bought into a popular US conservative narrative, while we see that happening in the US with people like Trump and Hillary, in the rest of the Western world we usually have a healthy level of contempt for our politicians, at the moment NZ’s Ardern is a bit of an exception, even here, but the fawning over even her appears to be centered in the US left. Perhaps that’s what’s misled you. The US is exceptionally divided at the moment, you recognize that? It’s when people get caught up in the us vs them mentality that they start to turn their leaders into messiahs, as Trump and Clinton are to their respective followers, the more rational, less flashy contenders get sidelined in the pursuit of the greater good (destroying the enemy).

> Trust “non-profit” entities over those who admit they’re out to make a HONEST buck.
> Replace thoughtful consideration with more and more “rules”.
> Subordinate individual rights to “the common good”, as defined by the Pedestaled.
> Consider the proximity-informed insight of ordinary people unqualified to challenge the above … and therefore expect nothing more from them than to just go with the flow of the status quo.

In other words, those nations have forgotten that respect for life and INDIVIDUAL liberty as the PRIMARY value that drives governance is essential for maintaining the societal health – intellectually, economically, lawfully – that facilitates and sustains their quality of life.

Well that’s all a load of nonsense, I think all you’re doing is taking examples of what you see in the left in the US and projecting it onto the rest of the world
The left in the US is well to the left in the rest of the Western World. Leftist strategies and causes like critical theory, police defunding and cancel culture with their extremism are US creations and remain centered in the US. I wish you lot would keep them all to yourselves. Yes there has been some seepage of that nonsense, but slowly, mostly we think you lot are just going nuts with it all. I was going to add race and sex quotas and welcoming in international strays and malcontents, but I think the Europeans are leading on those two.

About the only area in which many Western countries are to the left of the US in terms of having more extensive state social support systems, certainly that’s true of NZ and the Scandinavian Social Democracies, but to a large extent that’s offset with less government restrictions on business, for example, it was very easy for RocketLab to get through the red tape here compared to in America, and that also applies to other forms of business, there aren’t so many layers of government looking to take their pound of flesh. Another area where America leads is in forms of crony capitalism, like pork barrel politics, I see subsides and social welfare for business as a form of socialism, so you’re to our left on that as well.

The widespread engagement of distributed intellect that is not obstructed by those who Know Better™ in such nations leads to benefit for the social technocracies as well as themselves

Again, taking what you see in the US left and projection it onto the rest of the world.

As I’ve asked Lee before, what is YOUR work-around when your “leaders” get the answers wrong, when they are given such power over you?

Wait for it: . . . We . . . Vote . . .Them. . .Out.

NZ has a three year electoral term, inevitably, if a government wins a third term “third term-ites” sets in, a disease the symptoms of which are arrogance, they start throwing their weight around, lose popular support and pay the price at election time. This also serves as a warning to the incoming government.

NZ and Oz, and much of Western Europe, is pretty far down that well.

You haven’t got a clue about politics in NZ, and are barely any better informed about Europe, you gobble up what your preferred information sources sell you, and as you and I know, the US media and social media have become very partisan the only real question is: do they lead or do they follow the preferred narratives?

40 years ago the US was near the top in terms of freedom in the West, since then we’ve seen you sail past us in your downward spiral. 17th on Cato’s Human freedom index, 20th on Heritage’s Economic Freedom Index, 25th on Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index (NZ 1st on that one as well).

In the US, with so much of the country as blue states and red states, and with the winner-takes all system 48 states use, most voters count for naught, most voters in the US have essentially zero electoral power when it comes to deciding who is to be president. So they can be ignored.

“Top… men.”
Indiana Jones: Raiders of the Lost Arc
https://youtu.be/Fdjf4lMmiiI
0:37

Perhaps that is because most other Western nations are farther down the gravity well of the black hole called social technocracy … and in American terms, your Left vs. Right is actually Far Left vs. Left. Such nations assume that the tenets of social technocracy:

> Put elites on pedestals of worship and trust.
> Trust “non-profit” entities over those who admit they’re out to make a HONEST buck.
> Replace thoughtful consideration with more and more “rules”.
> Subordinate individual rights to “the common good”, as defined by the Pedestaled.
> Consider the proximity-informed insight of ordinary people unqualified to challenge the above … and therefore expect nothing more from them than to just go with the flow of the status quo.

… are simply The Way Things Are and beyond the need to question.

In other words, those nations have forgotten that respect for life and INDIVIDUAL liberty as the PRIMARY value that drives governance is essential for maintaining the societal health – intellectually, economically, lawfully – that facilitates and sustains their quality of life.

Key word: sustains. A society does not decline overnight, once it forgets the above and embraces social technocracy … especially when there are other nations who still respect individual liberty AND expect individual responsibility (which is NOT simply doing what one is told from On High) out there, buffering them from the total costs of that sustainment in the short term.

The widespread engagement of distributed intellect that is not obstructed by those who Know Better™ in such nations leads to benefit for the social technocracies as well as themselves … from tech innovations (particularly in health care) that are outside-the-box of the technocracies’ established business and government entities, to the technical and economic ability to defend technocratic allies as well as themselves from the geopolitical wolves at our doors.

Here is the problem: for a century, on this planet, what hasn’t been in the jaws of those wolves, has been sliding down that gravity well. EVERY non-authoritarian nation has been moving from what I could call the ROLLER paradigm of governance (Respecting One’s Life and Liberty – Expecting Responsibility) into social technocracy, including my own.

And the deeper down that well we go, the more authoritarian such nations become … but that authoritarian rule, in this case, doesn’t come dressed in jackboots and armbands (at least not at first), but in bunny slippers and royal robes of condescension, worn by The Pedestaled Elite who Know Better™, who expect us to simply OBEY “for our own good” as though they are omniscient and infallible.

As I’ve asked Lee before, what is YOUR work-around when your “leaders” get the answers wrong, when they are given such power over you?

Our outrage in our politics is a response to that trend – it is not hate, it is an attempt to escape that gravity well and the ignorance and poverty that will result from our further descent into authoritarianism and a new Dark Age. And it is not the American Right that is seeking to impose compliance of 330 million individuals with a one-size-fits-all set of rules, as though it is the One True Way from On High, via coercive force and social intimidation that smacks of theocracy.

NZ and Oz, and much of Western Europe, is pretty far down that well. America is heading that way, though there are still many here who value the ROLLER paradigm and therefore we aren’t as far down the well … yet.

And a component of that gravity, is the tunnel vision upon “saving lives” without considering the TOTAL cost of doing so, which can lead to better approaches that do not burn down the village to save it.

“What is a Libertarian?”
Dave Smith at the SOHO Forum October 2020
https://youtu.be/U14iShRAJN4
15:43

“And I thought they {you} was gone!”

Jayne ‘Serenity’ 2005

“So, we meet again, Mr. Bond.”

Apparently apocryphal, but sounds cool.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/covid-19-by-the-numbers-vaccinated-continue-to-be-protected

In all states, the rate of breakthrough cases among the fully vaccinated is below 1 percent.

If we look at the number of vaccinated people developing COVID-19, the District of Columbia is another good example to examine. Of 200 fully vaccinated people who acquired SARS-CoV-2, only 13 were hospitalized, and none died.

So thanks Lee, but the evidence is still that NZ should have FAR lower hospitalization and death rates in 2022-23 than Sweden did in 2020-21.

Outside of America, in most Western countries, it’s still like that, our hatred hasn’t driven the people of the left and right to the point of insanity.
Stay safe.

I contracted WuFlu around New Years Day 2021 … five months after that angiogram, eleven months after WuFlu arrived in force in the US.

I took the vaccine in May 2021, figuring that like the regular flu, natural immunity is not guaranteed – and with both very senior citizens and a grandson with a heart condition in the family, I figured that there was less risk in doing so vs. infecting them. Those are justifications that may not be proven valid when the whole story of WuFlu is written, but they were MY choices, based in common sense and personal experience.

Choices, not imposed by others who can’t tell me apart from a statistic, which is what I have seen advocated from NY state to New Zealand without regard to proven effectiveness and/or the potential for collateral damage.