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	Comments on: ULA to no longer sell Atlas-5 launches	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Richard M		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177671</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2021 17:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177671</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hello Ray,

The short answer is: There is nothing to keep ULA from buying additional RD-180&#039;s from NPO Energomash, if they want to continue using the Atlas V. 

The long answer is: Well, let&#039;s review the history:

2014: ULA announces plan to develop a new lauch vehicle employing U.S.-developed engines
2016: Congress reaches a compromise to allow the Air Force (now, Space Force) to set December 31, 2022 as the end date for awarding contracts to the United Launch Alliance (ULA) for Atlas V launches of national security satellites that would use RD-180 engines. 
2016: Tory Bruno announces that the new launcher, Vulcan, will be human rated. [https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/770579558726668288]
2020: Bruno reverses himself on human rating: &quot;Boeing hasn’t been certifying the Starliner capsule to fly on Vulcan, meaning the Atlas V will remain Starliner’s ride to the ISS for the foreseeable future. ULA will have the RD-180s to handle the expected pace of Starliner launches into 2028, if needed, Bruno said.​ &quot; [Link: https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2020/08/20/united-launch-alliance-space-force-spacex-contract.html]

Bob&#039;s post brings us up to today. So how to reconcile this with all that?

The first observation to make is that the federal statute only pertains to national security launches. It does not forbid NASA, or Boeing, or Amazon, or Sierra Nevada, from contracting a payload on an Atlas (or any rocket using Russian engines) after 2022. 

The second observation to make is that while Bruno&#039;s comment *sounds* definitive, it does not speak specifically to what Atlas V launches Boeing has already purchased on Atlas V. It could be that they&#039;re set for launches on some of those Atlas V&#039;s into the late 2020&#039;s (it only has to launch once per year, after all). That said, I don&#039;t know any more than you do how many of those there are.

I think what happened is that Boeing - which is both customer and 50% ULA stakeholder - decided at one point that they did not want to pay for human rating Vulcan (or at least, not a moment sooner than they have to); that it would be cheaper for the time being to fly Starliner on Atlas V, even though it is a more expensive rocket. Note that the Commercial Crew contract is fixed cost; if they did not include human rating costs for Vulcan (on top of human rating Atlas V) in the contract, Boeing has to eat that cost itself.

Hopefully Bruno will clarify just exactly what will be done with Vulcan vis-a-vis Starliner soon.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Ray,</p>
<p>The short answer is: There is nothing to keep ULA from buying additional RD-180&#8217;s from NPO Energomash, if they want to continue using the Atlas V. </p>
<p>The long answer is: Well, let&#8217;s review the history:</p>
<p>2014: ULA announces plan to develop a new lauch vehicle employing U.S.-developed engines<br />
2016: Congress reaches a compromise to allow the Air Force (now, Space Force) to set December 31, 2022 as the end date for awarding contracts to the United Launch Alliance (ULA) for Atlas V launches of national security satellites that would use RD-180 engines.<br />
2016: Tory Bruno announces that the new launcher, Vulcan, will be human rated. [https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/770579558726668288]<br />
2020: Bruno reverses himself on human rating: &#8220;Boeing hasn’t been certifying the Starliner capsule to fly on Vulcan, meaning the Atlas V will remain Starliner’s ride to the ISS for the foreseeable future. ULA will have the RD-180s to handle the expected pace of Starliner launches into 2028, if needed, Bruno said.​ &#8221; [Link: <a href="https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2020/08/20/united-launch-alliance-space-force-spacex-contract.html%5D" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2020/08/20/united-launch-alliance-space-force-spacex-contract.html%5D</a></p>
<p>Bob&#8217;s post brings us up to today. So how to reconcile this with all that?</p>
<p>The first observation to make is that the federal statute only pertains to national security launches. It does not forbid NASA, or Boeing, or Amazon, or Sierra Nevada, from contracting a payload on an Atlas (or any rocket using Russian engines) after 2022. </p>
<p>The second observation to make is that while Bruno&#8217;s comment *sounds* definitive, it does not speak specifically to what Atlas V launches Boeing has already purchased on Atlas V. It could be that they&#8217;re set for launches on some of those Atlas V&#8217;s into the late 2020&#8217;s (it only has to launch once per year, after all). That said, I don&#8217;t know any more than you do how many of those there are.</p>
<p>I think what happened is that Boeing &#8211; which is both customer and 50% ULA stakeholder &#8211; decided at one point that they did not want to pay for human rating Vulcan (or at least, not a moment sooner than they have to); that it would be cheaper for the time being to fly Starliner on Atlas V, even though it is a more expensive rocket. Note that the Commercial Crew contract is fixed cost; if they did not include human rating costs for Vulcan (on top of human rating Atlas V) in the contract, Boeing has to eat that cost itself.</p>
<p>Hopefully Bruno will clarify just exactly what will be done with Vulcan vis-a-vis Starliner soon.</p>
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		By: mpthompson		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177534</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mpthompson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2021 02:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177534</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Once Vulcan is flying, ULA can probably shift some of the remaining Atlas V launches to the Vulcan to free up launches for Starliner.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once Vulcan is flying, ULA can probably shift some of the remaining Atlas V launches to the Vulcan to free up launches for Starliner.</p>
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		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177464</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177464</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard M., how can one &quot;keep Atlas V around just for Starliner missions&quot; when Atlas is not reusable, and all remaining launches (and RD-180 engines) are sold? Please forgive me if I am missing something obvious.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard M., how can one &#8220;keep Atlas V around just for Starliner missions&#8221; when Atlas is not reusable, and all remaining launches (and RD-180 engines) are sold? Please forgive me if I am missing something obvious.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard M		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177442</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177442</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s interesting, because Bruno has also said that ULA has no plans to human rate the Vulcan. The plan is - was - to just keep flying Starliners on Atlas V so long as Boing keeps buying launches. 

So either they will keep Atlas V around just for Starliner missions, or they&#039;ll try to squeeze NASA (or Boeing, or both) into paying for human rating Vulcan?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting, because Bruno has also said that ULA has no plans to human rate the Vulcan. The plan is &#8211; was &#8211; to just keep flying Starliners on Atlas V so long as Boing keeps buying launches. </p>
<p>So either they will keep Atlas V around just for Starliner missions, or they&#8217;ll try to squeeze NASA (or Boeing, or both) into paying for human rating Vulcan?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177433</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177433</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177429&quot;&gt;Edward&lt;/a&gt;.

Edward: The interview was done for the article at the link. They did not provide a link to the interview itself.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177429">Edward</a>.</p>
<p>Edward: The interview was done for the article at the link. They did not provide a link to the interview itself.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177429</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 18:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177429</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[David Eastman, 
The post does not suggest that a decision was made, other than accepting a payload for the last available Atlas rocket.  

Robert, 
There is no link to the interview.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Eastman,<br />
The post does not suggest that a decision was made, other than accepting a payload for the last available Atlas rocket.  </p>
<p>Robert,<br />
There is no link to the interview.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jay		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177423</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177423</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[David is correct.  I remembered a post here in the past about ULA buying more RD-180 engines (Yes Bob I did search first) and found two articles with a purchase of &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ulas-vulcan-rocket-problems-with-blue-origins-rocket-engine/&quot;&gt;twelve last year&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/russia-hands-over-last-rocket-engines-to-ula/&quot;&gt;six this year&lt;/a&gt;.  I don&#039;t know if the six was in addition to or part of the order for the twelve.

Even though the first article was posted a year ago, ULA is still in the same predicament now, waiting for the BE-4.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David is correct.  I remembered a post here in the past about ULA buying more RD-180 engines (Yes Bob I did search first) and found two articles with a purchase of <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ulas-vulcan-rocket-problems-with-blue-origins-rocket-engine/">twelve last year</a> and <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/russia-hands-over-last-rocket-engines-to-ula/">six this year</a>.  I don&#8217;t know if the six was in addition to or part of the order for the twelve.</p>
<p>Even though the first article was posted a year ago, ULA is still in the same predicament now, waiting for the BE-4.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177422</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177422</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sad. It was easy to use...not that much different than Delta II in some ways]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sad. It was easy to use&#8230;not that much different than Delta II in some ways</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Eastman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/ula-to-no-longer-sell-atlas-5-launches/#comment-1177414</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Eastman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=78613#comment-1177414</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My understanding is that this announcement doesn&#039;t reflect any decision on whether or not to stop Atlas 5 production- that was always capped on the number of engines they have, and they aren&#039;t getting any more from Russia. This announcement is just saying that every Atlas 5 in the queue now has a customer assigned.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that this announcement doesn&#8217;t reflect any decision on whether or not to stop Atlas 5 production- that was always capped on the number of engines they have, and they aren&#8217;t getting any more from Russia. This announcement is just saying that every Atlas 5 in the queue now has a customer assigned.</p>
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