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	Comments on: Update on the technical progress at Boca Chica, preparing for the next Starship/Superheavy orbital test	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422579</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2023 05:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422579</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[NSF has it that some type of spin-up test went well.

I was worried the milkstool was knocked out of alignment.

Hot staging ring here
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2023/08/starship-booster-9-critical-testing-phase/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NSF has it that some type of spin-up test went well.</p>
<p>I was worried the milkstool was knocked out of alignment.</p>
<p>Hot staging ring here<br />
<a href="https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2023/08/starship-booster-9-critical-testing-phase/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2023/08/starship-booster-9-critical-testing-phase/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422573</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2023 01:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422573</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[MDN wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Just think if there had been a control issue early in the first flight, like right off the pad, and flight termination had taken a full minute to actually work? Would that delay have happened with a near fully fueled vehicle? Probably not.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; 

I have a different take on this.  The upper stage, Starship, also took forty seconds or so to rapidly disassemble itself.  Venting had been seen at locations where the termination system should have worked, so it is thought that the tanks had been breached but that they didn&#039;t ignite until much later.  Although Super Heavy was mostly empty, Starship was still full, yet it didn&#039;t explode right away, either but took just as long as the nearly empty Super Heavy booster.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MDN wrote: &#8220;<em>Just think if there had been a control issue early in the first flight, like right off the pad, and flight termination had taken a full minute to actually work? Would that delay have happened with a near fully fueled vehicle? Probably not.</em>&#8221; </p>
<p>I have a different take on this.  The upper stage, Starship, also took forty seconds or so to rapidly disassemble itself.  Venting had been seen at locations where the termination system should have worked, so it is thought that the tanks had been breached but that they didn&#8217;t ignite until much later.  Although Super Heavy was mostly empty, Starship was still full, yet it didn&#8217;t explode right away, either but took just as long as the nearly empty Super Heavy booster.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MDN		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422535</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MDN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 21:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422535</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I concur with Bob’s conjecture wrt why Elon may have added in hot staging. The same thought crossed my mind. WRT my “bomb” analogy I was not trying to equate Starship in formal explosive units, simply noting that it weighs in at 5000 tons and that is 90%+ volatile fuel and oxidizer that would make a spectacular boom. And as such maximum assurance that the flight termination system is 100% up to its task is quite warranted. The Starbase is only 2 miles from the launch pad after all, so in an early flight emergency any delay between a flight termination command and the system actually effecting that result is quite important.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concur with Bob’s conjecture wrt why Elon may have added in hot staging. The same thought crossed my mind. WRT my “bomb” analogy I was not trying to equate Starship in formal explosive units, simply noting that it weighs in at 5000 tons and that is 90%+ volatile fuel and oxidizer that would make a spectacular boom. And as such maximum assurance that the flight termination system is 100% up to its task is quite warranted. The Starbase is only 2 miles from the launch pad after all, so in an early flight emergency any delay between a flight termination command and the system actually effecting that result is quite important.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Edward		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422529</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 20:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422529</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas&#039;s analysis still seems excessive, to me.  Keep in mind that a Falcon 9 is 1.2 million pounds, or 0.6 kilotons.  Nuclear bombs are measured in kilotons, so a falcon 9 would be falsely compared to a small nuke, but the explosion that we saw seven or eight years ago was much, much smaller.  Much smaller.  The damage was nothing, compared to what a small nuke would have done to the pad and surrounding swampland.  

Doubting Thomas mentioned that some people are concerned that SpaceX added some water to the surrounding swamp.  I would be concerned about that, too, except that wet is the natural state of many swamps (not the DC swamp, for example).  It seems that those who are concerned with this water in the swamp are unaware of the natural state -- and they may be the same ones who complain when someone wants to drain the swamp.  Water or no water, they are so hard to please.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doubting Thomas&#8217;s analysis still seems excessive, to me.  Keep in mind that a Falcon 9 is 1.2 million pounds, or 0.6 kilotons.  Nuclear bombs are measured in kilotons, so a falcon 9 would be falsely compared to a small nuke, but the explosion that we saw seven or eight years ago was much, much smaller.  Much smaller.  The damage was nothing, compared to what a small nuke would have done to the pad and surrounding swampland.  </p>
<p>Doubting Thomas mentioned that some people are concerned that SpaceX added some water to the surrounding swamp.  I would be concerned about that, too, except that wet is the natural state of many swamps (not the DC swamp, for example).  It seems that those who are concerned with this water in the swamp are unaware of the natural state &#8212; and they may be the same ones who complain when someone wants to drain the swamp.  Water or no water, they are so hard to please.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422527</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 19:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422527</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422520&quot;&gt;Doubting Thomas&lt;/a&gt;.

Doubting Thomas: My thought stems from Musk&#039;s track record. He does not like to sit on his hands. If someone else is delaying him in one area, he always appears to find real work that can be done in the interim in other areas.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422520">Doubting Thomas</a>.</p>
<p>Doubting Thomas: My thought stems from Musk&#8217;s track record. He does not like to sit on his hands. If someone else is delaying him in one area, he always appears to find real work that can be done in the interim in other areas.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doubting Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422520</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doubting Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 18:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422520</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Robert and MDN - 3 things.

First, from a Texas perspective 400+ miles from the launch pad.  The latest kefuffle that SpaceX has in Boca Chica involves their deluge test.  They apparently have run afoul of Federal and Texas run off control regulations in their test.

Much shouting by Federal EPA appointees in the Southwest about &quot;dangerous uncontrolled run-off&quot; impacting local wetlands and &quot;Actions to be taken!!&quot;  Texas regulators (Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TECQ)) are more circumspect saying that regulations appeared to be violated but doubting much damage to environment occurred and that mitigation can be put in place relatively easily.  Watch this kerfuffle for more delays at Boca Chica involving more concrete pouring and pipe / catch tank installation.

Secondly to MDN comments about Starship being a 5,000 ton bomb.  

I am not a propulsion or explosives engineer, although I led aerospace teams in government and industry that had them on the team.  The statement that a fueled rocket is the equivalent to a bomb of the same weight is often made and is not correct.  That is not to say that they are not destructive.  The following link gives you a qualitative response to MDN statement based on studies NASA did in preparation for Saturn 5 launches.

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/591/1

Bottom line on this issue: More likely that Starship stack yields about a tenth of that &quot;bomb capability&quot; or about 550 tons.   Not to be trifled with but much, much less than a 5,000 ton bomb.  Musk has enough on his plate without coming up with non-existent problems.

Thirdly to Roberts comment about hot staging.  A point that I never considered.  Lots of ground testing could be done while waiting for all the strap hanger kerfuffles to be resolved and could still get real progress made.  Key to our initial space future is efficiently maximizing mass to LEO.

Thanks 
Doubting Thomas

** Analysis to support yield conclusions follow for those inclined. ** 

Key points:  1) Fully fueled S5 weighed 5.5 million pounds;  2) Equivalent Starship 11 million pounds (about double).

Study referenced at link concluded following:

1) Based on existing data, the study’s authors felt that it was unlikely that all of the fuel in the Saturn 5 would be consumed in an explosion.  In previous on-pad explosions of other liquid-fueled rockets such as the Atlas and Titan, significant amounts of fuel fell to the ground and burned long after the initial explosion.

2) Due to this, the study’s authors suggested that the likely yield of a S5 explosion was probably only around 400 tons (800,000 pounds).  Rocco Petrone, the Saturn launch director, estimated that the real figure was more likely to be 300–400 tons.  This is a ratio of 11% to 15%.

3) Therefore by simple ratio analysis, Starship equivalent would be about same giving a yield equivalent of 550 to 750 tons or 1.2 to 1.6 million pounds of TNT.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert and MDN &#8211; 3 things.</p>
<p>First, from a Texas perspective 400+ miles from the launch pad.  The latest kefuffle that SpaceX has in Boca Chica involves their deluge test.  They apparently have run afoul of Federal and Texas run off control regulations in their test.</p>
<p>Much shouting by Federal EPA appointees in the Southwest about &#8220;dangerous uncontrolled run-off&#8221; impacting local wetlands and &#8220;Actions to be taken!!&#8221;  Texas regulators (Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TECQ)) are more circumspect saying that regulations appeared to be violated but doubting much damage to environment occurred and that mitigation can be put in place relatively easily.  Watch this kerfuffle for more delays at Boca Chica involving more concrete pouring and pipe / catch tank installation.</p>
<p>Secondly to MDN comments about Starship being a 5,000 ton bomb.  </p>
<p>I am not a propulsion or explosives engineer, although I led aerospace teams in government and industry that had them on the team.  The statement that a fueled rocket is the equivalent to a bomb of the same weight is often made and is not correct.  That is not to say that they are not destructive.  The following link gives you a qualitative response to MDN statement based on studies NASA did in preparation for Saturn 5 launches.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.thespacereview.com/article/591/1" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.thespacereview.com/article/591/1</a></p>
<p>Bottom line on this issue: More likely that Starship stack yields about a tenth of that &#8220;bomb capability&#8221; or about 550 tons.   Not to be trifled with but much, much less than a 5,000 ton bomb.  Musk has enough on his plate without coming up with non-existent problems.</p>
<p>Thirdly to Roberts comment about hot staging.  A point that I never considered.  Lots of ground testing could be done while waiting for all the strap hanger kerfuffles to be resolved and could still get real progress made.  Key to our initial space future is efficiently maximizing mass to LEO.</p>
<p>Thanks<br />
Doubting Thomas</p>
<p>** Analysis to support yield conclusions follow for those inclined. ** </p>
<p>Key points:  1) Fully fueled S5 weighed 5.5 million pounds;  2) Equivalent Starship 11 million pounds (about double).</p>
<p>Study referenced at link concluded following:</p>
<p>1) Based on existing data, the study’s authors felt that it was unlikely that all of the fuel in the Saturn 5 would be consumed in an explosion.  In previous on-pad explosions of other liquid-fueled rockets such as the Atlas and Titan, significant amounts of fuel fell to the ground and burned long after the initial explosion.</p>
<p>2) Due to this, the study’s authors suggested that the likely yield of a S5 explosion was probably only around 400 tons (800,000 pounds).  Rocco Petrone, the Saturn launch director, estimated that the real figure was more likely to be 300–400 tons.  This is a ratio of 11% to 15%.</p>
<p>3) Therefore by simple ratio analysis, Starship equivalent would be about same giving a yield equivalent of 550 to 750 tons or 1.2 to 1.6 million pounds of TNT.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422508</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 16:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422508</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422507&quot;&gt;MDN&lt;/a&gt;.

MDN: I had a thought while reading your post. I suspect Musk added Hot Staging because he recognized that the FAA was going to stall him. Why not make some other improvements while he waited? This supposition fits the pattern SpaceX has followed in the past two years, since the Biden administration took over and test flights became difficult to get approved.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422507">MDN</a>.</p>
<p>MDN: I had a thought while reading your post. I suspect Musk added Hot Staging because he recognized that the FAA was going to stall him. Why not make some other improvements while he waited? This supposition fits the pattern SpaceX has followed in the past two years, since the Biden administration took over and test flights became difficult to get approved.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MDN		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422507</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MDN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 15:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422507</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Truth be told the FAA does have some legitimate concerns that need addressing before the next launch, primary among these being robust proof that the flight termination system has been improved and will with as much certainty as is possible Immediately destroy an out of control vehicle. Just think if there had been a control issue early in the first flight, like right off the pad, and flight termination had taken a full minute to actually work? Would that delay have happened with a near fully fueled vehicle? Probably not. But this IS a legitimate point to press on as at launch Starship is a 5000 ton bomb.

Beyond that Elon always sets aggressive schedules, and to be honest I am duly impressed with how quickly the Stage 0 re-engineering has come together. However, he also just threw Hot Staging into the mix and we only see the first physical test articles for structural validation just this past week. This is the real long pole in the tent I expect, and gates the Next Launch window out into October to November IMHO. I could be wrong and would be glad to see it earlier, but this is a non-trivial change that involves a lot of new uhgknowns to work through.

All that said I will guess Q4 CY2023 and believe a more specific date is to infer precision that is simply not possible given all of the variables and uncertainty in play.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truth be told the FAA does have some legitimate concerns that need addressing before the next launch, primary among these being robust proof that the flight termination system has been improved and will with as much certainty as is possible Immediately destroy an out of control vehicle. Just think if there had been a control issue early in the first flight, like right off the pad, and flight termination had taken a full minute to actually work? Would that delay have happened with a near fully fueled vehicle? Probably not. But this IS a legitimate point to press on as at launch Starship is a 5000 ton bomb.</p>
<p>Beyond that Elon always sets aggressive schedules, and to be honest I am duly impressed with how quickly the Stage 0 re-engineering has come together. However, he also just threw Hot Staging into the mix and we only see the first physical test articles for structural validation just this past week. This is the real long pole in the tent I expect, and gates the Next Launch window out into October to November IMHO. I could be wrong and would be glad to see it earlier, but this is a non-trivial change that involves a lot of new uhgknowns to work through.</p>
<p>All that said I will guess Q4 CY2023 and believe a more specific date is to infer precision that is simply not possible given all of the variables and uncertainty in play.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Col Beausabre		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422494</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Col Beausabre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2023 12:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422494</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I was berated by an &quot;experienced civil engineer and expert on concrete&quot; for my ignorance online for stating I believed that the pad would be ready by the end of summer the way Musk predicted, &quot;It would never cure that quickly&quot; I was just a fan boi and member of &quot;the Musk Cult&quot; ( like the way the Left calls anything they don&#039;t like a cult). Some expert. I wouldn&#039;t buy an outhouse he designed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was berated by an &#8220;experienced civil engineer and expert on concrete&#8221; for my ignorance online for stating I believed that the pad would be ready by the end of summer the way Musk predicted, &#8220;It would never cure that quickly&#8221; I was just a fan boi and member of &#8220;the Musk Cult&#8221; ( like the way the Left calls anything they don&#8217;t like a cult). Some expert. I wouldn&#8217;t buy an outhouse he designed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John hare		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422374</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John hare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2023 17:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422374</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This was in April that I predicted.  Wasn’t basing it on anything SpaceX had said to that point.  I was going by the time I thought it would take to work on the pad.  My assumption was that the next booster and ship were ready to go.      My prediction, not theirs]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was in April that I predicted.  Wasn’t basing it on anything SpaceX had said to that point.  I was going by the time I thought it would take to work on the pad.  My assumption was that the next booster and ship were ready to go.      My prediction, not theirs</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422373</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2023 17:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422373</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422372&quot;&gt;John hare&lt;/a&gt;.

John Hare: SpaceX never claimed it would be ready to fly again in June or July. When Musk finally hinted at a target schedule, he said August, based on the engineering and technical work that needed to be done.

None of that really matters, as the real obstacle to launch remains the oppressive federal bureaucracy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422372">John hare</a>.</p>
<p>John Hare: SpaceX never claimed it would be ready to fly again in June or July. When Musk finally hinted at a target schedule, he said August, based on the engineering and technical work that needed to be done.</p>
<p>None of that really matters, as the real obstacle to launch remains the oppressive federal bureaucracy.</p>
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		By: John hare		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/update-on-the-technical-progress-at-boca-chica-preparing-for-the-next-starship-superheavy-orbital-test/#comment-1422372</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John hare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2023 17:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=97268#comment-1422372</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My prediction last winter was that Starship would fly in May and dispense a few Starlinks before losing the upper stage on reentry.   I was wrong on both counts.  The after seeing the Pad damage I predicted return to flight in late June or early July.   I was basing that on concrete construction techniques.  Wrong again    Maybe I’ll quit predicting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My prediction last winter was that Starship would fly in May and dispense a few Starlinks before losing the upper stage on reentry.   I was wrong on both counts.  The after seeing the Pad damage I predicted return to flight in late June or early July.   I was basing that on concrete construction techniques.  Wrong again    Maybe I’ll quit predicting.</p>
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