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	<title>
	Comments on: SpaceX narrows Mars landing site for Starship to four prime locations	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/</link>
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		<title>
		By: pawn		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118555</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pawn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118555</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Max,

It would require very large RTGs to do the work you are describing.

What a practical Mars base needs is a nuclear reactor. That should be one of the first things landed (if not the first) in any serious attempt at a permanent base.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max,</p>
<p>It would require very large RTGs to do the work you are describing.</p>
<p>What a practical Mars base needs is a nuclear reactor. That should be one of the first things landed (if not the first) in any serious attempt at a permanent base.</p>
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		<title>
		By: wayne		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118168</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118168</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Max--
I&#039;d enjoy your comments on (potentially) utilizing some formulation of  (generically) shotcrete (and associated machinery), for fabricating structures off-world.


(These people have some great case-studies on terrestrial fabrication. )
https://shotcrete.org/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max&#8211;<br />
I&#8217;d enjoy your comments on (potentially) utilizing some formulation of  (generically) shotcrete (and associated machinery), for fabricating structures off-world.</p>
<p>(These people have some great case-studies on terrestrial fabrication. )<br />
<a href="https://shotcrete.org/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://shotcrete.org/</a></p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Max		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118163</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118163</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To create a fabricated landing zone on Mars requires a considerable amount of engineering.    
   Because of the low gravity, traditional earthmoving equipment will not be heavy enough. (but that can be overcome by loading equipment up with ballast or rocks from the area) 
   There is no oxygen for combustion so unless you make your own out of atmospheric gases, (like the rocket fuel) everything will need to be electric with heavy batteries/motors ship there from earth. Charging the batteries by necessity will need to be atomic because of the power requirements. RTG will keep the batteries and the driver warm, and will last hundreds of years, but have a low electrical output.
    Because of unknown surface characteristics, what looks like hard surface might be mud underneath because of the chosen wet locations. A surface grinder might be more useful to prepare a suitable platform out of a tested rocky surface. Smaller in weight, size, energy requirements. 
     The surface can be treated with a hardening agent that doesn&#039;t need oxygen to cure, and is resistant to breaking down under rocket exhaust heat.  There are some chemicals already in use, but may not work at Mars temperature. 
 https://www.polypavement.com/
  There are epoxies used by the military to create runways in the desert in only a few days. Once percolated into the soil, it hardens like concrete.

    There are other methods to support a craft in unknown soil properties.  Some are discussed in the first landing on the moon because they were unsure that it would be like &quot;powdered cement&quot; on the surface. 
   On Mars they will need adjustable landing struts to keep the craft upright, this may include a length of spring steel rod that pushes into the ground using the weight of the craft.  And/or stabilizers that fold outward that are used to stabilize cranes.

     If the evidence for water has long evaporated, or is too deep from the surface for convenient use, they&#039;re are alternative sites that are certain to have what they need. 
     The polar ice is on the surface, and is only 50° colder then what is already far too cold. An RTG on a rover can melt a dust free habitable tunnel  complex into the ice ready for air locks and carbon insulation in a stable (hopefully) radiation free artificial environment requiring minimal construction.  Ancient water, methane, nitrogen, as well as as an abundance of solid carbon dioxide will be available upon colonization. The RTG can also be used in the separation process to melt carbon dioxide ice in a pressure container, into a high-pressure liquid that can be used to generate power in a two-stage process. High pressure liquid to high-pressure gas in the first stage then high-pressure gas turning a second turbine into low pressure as it&#039;s vented outside creating far more power then the RTG can ever make as an electrical device. This is sustainable as the vented gases will refreeze and can be recycled endlessly.  Life on Mars will need an abundance of power, this is the best available until nuclear power plants can be constructed and brought online.  (Hopefully Russia will allow the purchase of some of their nuclear submarines for this purpose)
   Once a staging area has been secured with manufacturing process enabled probably by 3-D printing, the rest of the planet can be surveyed, sampled, underground tunnels mapped and cleared of debris and reinforced by construction materials supplied by the polar intermediate materials colony.  Baby steps...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To create a fabricated landing zone on Mars requires a considerable amount of engineering.<br />
   Because of the low gravity, traditional earthmoving equipment will not be heavy enough. (but that can be overcome by loading equipment up with ballast or rocks from the area)<br />
   There is no oxygen for combustion so unless you make your own out of atmospheric gases, (like the rocket fuel) everything will need to be electric with heavy batteries/motors ship there from earth. Charging the batteries by necessity will need to be atomic because of the power requirements. RTG will keep the batteries and the driver warm, and will last hundreds of years, but have a low electrical output.<br />
    Because of unknown surface characteristics, what looks like hard surface might be mud underneath because of the chosen wet locations. A surface grinder might be more useful to prepare a suitable platform out of a tested rocky surface. Smaller in weight, size, energy requirements.<br />
     The surface can be treated with a hardening agent that doesn&#8217;t need oxygen to cure, and is resistant to breaking down under rocket exhaust heat.  There are some chemicals already in use, but may not work at Mars temperature.<br />
 <a href="https://www.polypavement.com/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.polypavement.com/</a><br />
  There are epoxies used by the military to create runways in the desert in only a few days. Once percolated into the soil, it hardens like concrete.</p>
<p>    There are other methods to support a craft in unknown soil properties.  Some are discussed in the first landing on the moon because they were unsure that it would be like &#8220;powdered cement&#8221; on the surface.<br />
   On Mars they will need adjustable landing struts to keep the craft upright, this may include a length of spring steel rod that pushes into the ground using the weight of the craft.  And/or stabilizers that fold outward that are used to stabilize cranes.</p>
<p>     If the evidence for water has long evaporated, or is too deep from the surface for convenient use, they&#8217;re are alternative sites that are certain to have what they need.<br />
     The polar ice is on the surface, and is only 50° colder then what is already far too cold. An RTG on a rover can melt a dust free habitable tunnel  complex into the ice ready for air locks and carbon insulation in a stable (hopefully) radiation free artificial environment requiring minimal construction.  Ancient water, methane, nitrogen, as well as as an abundance of solid carbon dioxide will be available upon colonization. The RTG can also be used in the separation process to melt carbon dioxide ice in a pressure container, into a high-pressure liquid that can be used to generate power in a two-stage process. High pressure liquid to high-pressure gas in the first stage then high-pressure gas turning a second turbine into low pressure as it&#8217;s vented outside creating far more power then the RTG can ever make as an electrical device. This is sustainable as the vented gases will refreeze and can be recycled endlessly.  Life on Mars will need an abundance of power, this is the best available until nuclear power plants can be constructed and brought online.  (Hopefully Russia will allow the purchase of some of their nuclear submarines for this purpose)<br />
   Once a staging area has been secured with manufacturing process enabled probably by 3-D printing, the rest of the planet can be surveyed, sampled, underground tunnels mapped and cleared of debris and reinforced by construction materials supplied by the polar intermediate materials colony.  Baby steps&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: pawn		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118120</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pawn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2021 20:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118120</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m thinking Mr. Musk needs to start putting together a series of landers to check these sites out. 

Maybe something that can actually excavate. 

I wonder if a private company can use an RTG?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m thinking Mr. Musk needs to start putting together a series of landers to check these sites out. </p>
<p>Maybe something that can actually excavate. </p>
<p>I wonder if a private company can use an RTG?</p>
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		<title>
		By: pawn		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118110</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pawn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2021 20:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118110</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What the heck are those &quot;pebble&quot; looking things scattered all over AP9. They are amazingly similar in size (approx 10 m diameter as far as I can tell) and their distribution is very odd looking. Areas of clusters, areas where there are none and other areas where they seem to be uniformly spaced. Maybe ejectia that&#039;s sublimated? The uniformity in size is really puzzling.

Mars is one freaky-deekey place.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What the heck are those &#8220;pebble&#8221; looking things scattered all over AP9. They are amazingly similar in size (approx 10 m diameter as far as I can tell) and their distribution is very odd looking. Areas of clusters, areas where there are none and other areas where they seem to be uniformly spaced. Maybe ejectia that&#8217;s sublimated? The uniformity in size is really puzzling.</p>
<p>Mars is one freaky-deekey place.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118105</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2021 20:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118105</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118099&quot;&gt;DannyG&lt;/a&gt;.

DannyG: How is the metal grid you describe shipped? If as a roll it would make implementation relatively easy. You would basically put the roll on the ground and let it unroll.

If shipped as sections that are clipped together it might pack easier, but assembling the sections on the ground would likely require humans.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118099">DannyG</a>.</p>
<p>DannyG: How is the metal grid you describe shipped? If as a roll it would make implementation relatively easy. You would basically put the roll on the ground and let it unroll.</p>
<p>If shipped as sections that are clipped together it might pack easier, but assembling the sections on the ground would likely require humans.</p>
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		<title>
		By: DannyG		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118099</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DannyG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118099</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am thinking that a robotic bobcat or two would go a long way in dealing with this problem. My addition to the discussion would be adding a metal grid of the type used to make improvised runways. Additionally it would make the landing zone pop on the radar.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am thinking that a robotic bobcat or two would go a long way in dealing with this problem. My addition to the discussion would be adding a metal grid of the type used to make improvised runways. Additionally it would make the landing zone pop on the radar.</p>
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		<title>
		By: America		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1118023</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[America]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1118023</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Please tell us biden and harris will be on the flight????]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please tell us biden and harris will be on the flight????</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117874</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117874</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Now, I think the bobcat needs in one of the holes-Starship could land there and be a wet stage.  I have always been a fan of rockets as payloads-so maybe a one off made for a hole with surface and subsurface exits.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, I think the bobcat needs in one of the holes-Starship could land there and be a wet stage.  I have always been a fan of rockets as payloads-so maybe a one off made for a hole with surface and subsurface exits.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Zimmerman		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117853</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Zimmerman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117853</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117847&quot;&gt;Jay&lt;/a&gt;.

Jay: SpaceX is quite happy to work with NASA and the scientist community on its Mars project. Remember, NASA is likely its biggest customer. Musk might want to go to Mars, but he also always focuses on how he can sell the product.

In the end, I strongly believe it will be with Starship/Super Heavy that NASA&#039;s big manned missions to the planets will be achieved. It just will take some time for this to unroll.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117847">Jay</a>.</p>
<p>Jay: SpaceX is quite happy to work with NASA and the scientist community on its Mars project. Remember, NASA is likely its biggest customer. Musk might want to go to Mars, but he also always focuses on how he can sell the product.</p>
<p>In the end, I strongly believe it will be with Starship/Super Heavy that NASA&#8217;s big manned missions to the planets will be achieved. It just will take some time for this to unroll.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jay		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117847</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117847</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In the conference pdf, I see people from NASA&#039;s JPL and Ames Research Center.  So is this the beginning of collaboration between SpaceX and NASA about Mars?  I have always seen them as competitors.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the conference pdf, I see people from NASA&#8217;s JPL and Ames Research Center.  So is this the beginning of collaboration between SpaceX and NASA about Mars?  I have always seen them as competitors.</p>
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		<title>
		By: wayne		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117841</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117841</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Not to totally rain on the parade here, but I must have missed the part where the problem of radiation exposure en route was solved, as well as the whole jell-o muscle thing&#039; upon landing.

that being said....

Pink Floyd - 
Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun / Mars Direct
https://youtu.be/a9ntxCcjVjE
9:47]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to totally rain on the parade here, but I must have missed the part where the problem of radiation exposure en route was solved, as well as the whole jell-o muscle thing&#8217; upon landing.</p>
<p>that being said&#8230;.</p>
<p>Pink Floyd &#8211;<br />
Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun / Mars Direct<br />
<a href="https://youtu.be/a9ntxCcjVjE" rel="nofollow ugc">https://youtu.be/a9ntxCcjVjE</a><br />
9:47</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Van Dune		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117839</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Van Dune]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117839</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In addition to some high-up tractor thrust (that&#039;s what the SkyCrane is, after all) I think Mars is going to require the first landing to build some form of landing pad for the next ones. The low G and tenuous atmosphere means that any loose surface materials are going to become long-range projectiles... multiple StarShips landing anywhere near each other more or less simultaneously is probably dangerous. Same applies in spades on the Moon.

Who builds the first pads (human or robot) and out of what are big questions. Hauling concrete to Mars is obviously not feasible. I would guess a robotic &quot;Bobcat&quot; could do a basic clearing and leveling, followed by the application of a chemical binder compound to lock down the surface materials.

Once humans are landed in sufficient numbers, serious pads can be built, along with some infrastructure for moving ships to and from them, so multiple ships can use a pad.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to some high-up tractor thrust (that&#8217;s what the SkyCrane is, after all) I think Mars is going to require the first landing to build some form of landing pad for the next ones. The low G and tenuous atmosphere means that any loose surface materials are going to become long-range projectiles&#8230; multiple StarShips landing anywhere near each other more or less simultaneously is probably dangerous. Same applies in spades on the Moon.</p>
<p>Who builds the first pads (human or robot) and out of what are big questions. Hauling concrete to Mars is obviously not feasible. I would guess a robotic &#8220;Bobcat&#8221; could do a basic clearing and leveling, followed by the application of a chemical binder compound to lock down the surface materials.</p>
<p>Once humans are landed in sufficient numbers, serious pads can be built, along with some infrastructure for moving ships to and from them, so multiple ships can use a pad.</p>
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		<title>
		By: TGeorge		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117748</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TGeorge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117748</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My two cents on the safety aspects of landing a rocket of this size on an unprepared site: maybe some nose-mounted landing engines in a tractor config. would help, although I&#039;m not sure how much of the blast will dissipate harmlessly in the thin martian atmosphere before hitting the ground. Still, directing the blast a wee bit sideways should help at the cost of some thrust wasted away.
I&#039;m pretty sure someone floated such an idea w regards to the lunar version.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My two cents on the safety aspects of landing a rocket of this size on an unprepared site: maybe some nose-mounted landing engines in a tractor config. would help, although I&#8217;m not sure how much of the blast will dissipate harmlessly in the thin martian atmosphere before hitting the ground. Still, directing the blast a wee bit sideways should help at the cost of some thrust wasted away.<br />
I&#8217;m pretty sure someone floated such an idea w regards to the lunar version.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Wright		</title>
		<link>https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/spacex-narrows-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locationsspacex-downselects-mars-landing-site-for-starship-to-four-prime-locations/#comment-1117735</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://behindtheblack.com/?p=74088#comment-1117735</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No Cydonia? Hoagland will be hurt :-P]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Cydonia? Hoagland will be hurt :-P</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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