What is the relationship between your last two links to Wernher von Braun and Hermann Oberth?

In 1984, as part of a small group of young men, I was fortunate to meet one of the three fathers who laid the theoretical foundations of space travel, namely Hermann Oberth. He was then in the proud age of 90 years. (Note: the other two fathers are known to be: K. E. Ziolkowski and R. Goddard). Unfortunately, I never got to know Wernher von Braun personally. He died way too soon for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMuGCM__5k

Doubting Thomas-
Thank you for the complete Title, I’ll do some looking tonight.

Edward–
still reading your stuff! (I just don’t have anything to add….)

A nice little Mark Felton video….

“The America Rocket”
Mark Felton Productions
(December 2019)
https://youtu.be/1AQIyXV5nGI
11:11

“….the story behind the America Rocket, created by V-2 designer Wernher von Braun to strike New York City from space!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNdgKjwYpvs

“A historic conversation between German rocket scientists Wernher Von Braun and Willy Ley. Highlights include the development of the German rocket programs during WWII, and the space program in the 1950’s. Recorded June 9th and 23rd, 1959, in New York City and Redstone Arsenal, Huntstville, Alabama.”

It was the beginning of the very first technical and organizational prerequisite for starting regular non-stop passenger air traffic across the Atlantic. Non-stop passenger air traffic cannot start until the concept of flying non-stop across the Atlantic has been proved.

It was the entire purpose of the Orteig Prize, just as starting commercial manned spaceflight in reusable rockets was the purpose of theX-Prize. In the early 1920s, the technology was not yet up to the task, and it was a second issue of the Orteig Prize that finally found people who could develop the technology so that there could be a winner and so that — in time — there could be the airplane range needed for non-stop service.

Even in the past two decades, trans-Atlantic flights are not risk-free, but but we have worked hard to reduce the risks, and people continue to risk their lives just to go to another continent. We shouldn’t be surprised that some people are willing to risk their lives in order to see whether we can colonize another planet. It is something worth dying for. That’s the deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXbdJ3kyVyU (7 minutes, Bill Whittle, The Deal)
“You see, either you live for something, something worth dying for, or you just rot on the installment plan. That’s the deal.”

The Disney Mars film is actually sensational and an interesting contemporary document, especially in relation to the hopes associated with Mars.

From this it appears that in 1957 public (the scientists, the interested public) was willing to accept that Mars is most likely not the living planet that had been hoped for years ago. But in 1957 one still hoped for “lower” forms of life. And most importantly, even in 1957 it was still believed that there was an atmosphere of sufficient pressure and density. But it was confirmed already in 1957 that the Mars atmosphere is very cold and devoid of oxygen, and only consisting of nitrogen (!) and carbon dioxide.

The fact that the real Martian atmosphere, which in principle corresponds to a good technical vacuum on Earth, could not fulfill these hopes was the actual massive setback for Wernher von Braun’s space dreams in 1965

I met Dr. Puttkamer personally many years ago at an aviation show.

Many years before this event, I had sent him a small proposal for the design of a launch vehicle as a I was pupil. At this time he was still active in NASA. He wrote me a very friendly letter as response.

Project
Mars
A Technical Tale
by
Dr. Wernher von Braun

English Translation by

Henry J. White, Lt Cdr, USN

ISBN 10 – 0 – 97 – 38203-3-0

Found other download links but I have always relied on Guttenberg for safe and trusted download site – so reluctant to post an untested site here.

But why no substantive defense of Dr. Robert Zubrin, who was maligned above, and who has been advocating for the exploration of Mars for over four decades

Very puzzling.

Doubting Thomas-
Good deal!
I only did a cursory search at the Archive, and I’ve always found searching there to be a hassle.
What is the actual complete Title of the book?

Doubting Thomas: I am totally cool with you providing a link to Von Braun’s Mars novel.

In his 1950s Mars Project book, Von Braun made a prediction that I quoted in Leaving Earth because it has turned out to be so so very right:

Will man ever go to Mars? I am sure he will — but it will be a century or more before he is ready.

Von Braun of course provided detailed reasons why, mostly having to do with the time required to solve the medical and engineering problems of building an interplanetary manned spaceship.

Right now Von Braun’s time table looks pretty good. At worse he might be one or two decades off, if Elon Musk does what he is trying to do.

It is a very long and dry story telling attempt. Here is the quote you all talked about:

“The Martian government was directed by ten men, the leader of whom was elected by universal suffrage for five years and entitled “Elon.” Two houses of Parliament enacted the laws to be administered by the Elon and his cabinet. The Upper House was called the Council of the Elders and was limited to a membership of 60 persons, each being appointed for life by the Elon as vacancies occurred by death. ”

I will keep looking for it online and post a link here, if Robert is ok with that, if I find it.

Mike Borgelt–
I was hoping that von Braun story was posted at the Archive, but apparently not. (Searching is always problematic with them, could be user-error.)
I did, however, find this:

Project: Humans to Mars
NASA 2011
https://archive.org/details/project-humans-to-mars-_xUlhaFKjsE
1:39:29
[embedded player, or download]

“Dr. Jesco von Puttkamer, Space Operations Mission Directorate, reviews 60 years of manned Mars mission analyses conducted at NASA and in Russia, starting from the historical first study, “The Mars Project,” by Dr. Wernher von Braun and colleagues in 1948.”

“Breathing difficulties’ plague the vaccinated”

because you mentioned his name:

I like the man Charles Lindbergh. His transatlantic flight was a stunt of immense personal courage. It was carried out with a small airplane that was extremely adapted to the task of getting a single man across the ocean und that with difficulty. However, the flight has in no way leveled the technical and organizational prerequisites for starting regular passenger air traffic across the Atlantic. That only happened decades later, when the prerequisites were in place.

I reread my comment, twice, and I don’t know what I said to give you the impression that Americans or even that Europeans conquered the North American continent. I said “people” and included the South American continent. Even as the Europeans were settling the Americas, they found that other people had already settled these two continents.

Since the topic was destinations worth dying for, although specifically space destinations, I included a more mundane place worth dying for: the grocery store. I suspect that you have read into my comment only what you wanted to read. It’s like those song lyrics: “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”

The point remains that when it comes to expanding man’s knowledge of the universe, increasing man’s reach in his world, and in the everyday activities such as gathering food and building houses and workplaces, we are willing to risk our lives.

As we begin to realize how much energy it takes to get off a planet’s surface, we are likely to become a less of a planetary species and more of a space-based species, even if that requires rotating colonies in order to avoid the health problems of weightlessness.

Dr. Wernher von Braun and Dr. Ernst Stuhlinger in 1957: Manned mission to Mars using electric rocket propulsion! From about minute 40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk7lf2D848I

Although some details was already known about Mars (cold and dry) by this time in 1957, there was still hope that conditions on Mars would be a little more livable than feared. That was the background for this fantastic Disney episode. Unfortunately, a few years (1965) later, Mariner 4 needed the not-so-joyful truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ-T5VEueW0

Elon has already taken the first step towards implementing your suggestions: He has declared himself Emperor of Mars (not really)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6gkVkoN9JQ

A planet all to myself and my family.
Until others want to come. Then they would more them likely want to come in through my already established colony and infrastructure.

So essentially you see things as a zero-sum game. It’s been said that zero-sum thinking is essentially anti-technological.

Your last paragraph doesn’t make any sense to me.

You are serving a misunderstanding that I need to correct. It was not Americans who settled and conquered the North American continent, but courageous and very active Europeans! Above all: English, Germans and Irish. This urge to conquer the open space seems to be more a characteristic of the Europeans.

Your question is good and not easy to answer in a few words. First of all, I am talking here exclusively about manned space travel. I continue to be a big supporter of unmanned space exploration using robotic probes.

So: At the time, I was certainly disappointed by the actual developments in manned spaceflight in the 1980s and 1990s. So this eternal not getting beyond low earth orbit, the lack of a serious plan for a manned flight to Mars, etc.. Even before the Challenger catastrophe, I thought the space shuttle was a technical misconception. But those were just intermediate stations in my own development. It was important that I managed to move away from the details and towards the big picture. I became increasingly interested in the real reasons manned spaceflight might make sense after the discoveries of Mariner 2 and 4 eliminated real destinations worth the effort and risk. Of course I’m talking about the “failure” of Mars and Venus as destinations for meaningful manned space travel.

Crucial to my process of evolving away from being a space cadet was the realization that this was an outspoken cult run by true believers. I didn’t want to submit to this cult any further, for it is the common trait of true believers that one must not question the very foundations of their cult. Dr. Jeff Bell has articulated this much better than I can. Please listen to some of the many interviews at the Space Show.

The greatest prophet of true faith at the moment is Elon Musk, who, with great entrepreneurial talent, is very successful in advancing certain technical developments, that is beyond doubt. Nevertheless, his actual goal, the colonization of Mars, is on very weak ground. Curiously, as far as I know, he does very little outside of Starship development to develop the bases for his venture.

The imaginary colonization of Mars is a task of a magnitude that would trump the entire efforts on all sides of the Second World War to such an extent that they seem negligible compared to the Mars project. In my view, if Elon Musk was really serious about it, he would have to commit funds of the order of magnitude to the project each year to create the foundations mentioned above, which represent a significant fraction of the total NASA budget. That’s not the case.

All of them. People died to get to the Americas. People died to settle the Americas. People died to learn to fly across the Atlantic — Charles Lindberg was called “Lucky Lindy” for a reason. People die building dams, constructing buildings, and developing space exploration. People die driving to the grocery store. We continue these activities because the end result is worth the risks and the losses.

“I doubt that Mars is destination for future human civilization at all.”

Fortunately, among the mandates that government is imposing upon us, colonizing Mars is not one of them. You do not have to worry that you will be drafted for this adventure, but it is also unfair to forbid others the opportunity to try. For colonization, it is the same as you said of mere exploration: “Those affected must decide for themselves whether it is worth risking their life for it.“