Today COVID-19 made my doctor and I criminals
Because I have in my later years developed a minor case of chronic asthma, I make quarterly visits to a lung specialist to take a basic lung function test to monitor the progress of my workout regimen plus medicines. This began two years ago when the asthma was first diagnosed, forcing me to take puffs of an inhaler twice each day, in the morning and evening.
My long term goal is to get off these meds, but to do so I need to improve the numbers in this quarterly check-up.
Today was my appointment for the first checkup in 2020. I get to the doctor’s office and, not surprisingly, cannot enter without letting them take my temperature and confirm that I have no cough or cold. I expected this, since a doctor’s office is one of the most likely places to catch a disease from others, and with the COVID-19 panic dominating society, they need to be sure everyone is uninfected before allowing them in.
I don’t object to these precautions. I just wonder why they didn’t do such testing last year, when we were having the worst flu season in decades, killing far more people than the Wuhan virus. This contradiction once again illustrates the irrationality of the COVID-19 response.
The office was empty, obviously because many people have cancelled their regular checkups out of a media-induced terror.
When it comes time for my checkup, the doctor’s medical assistant started going through the normal preliminaries, taking my blood pressure, pulse, etc. However, he then tells me that he will not be doing the lung function test, as is normal.
“What?” I say. “That’s the prime reason I’m here. It gives us data for measuring my progress.”
The assistant explained that because of COVID-19, their office manager had stopped such tests.
“Since when is an office manager a doctor?”
The assistant smiled amiably, “You can ask the doctor if I can give you the test, and if he says yes we’ll do it.”
When my doctor entered the room a few minutes later I demanded to be given the test. He then explained that he can’t do it, or check my lungs with his stethoscope, because the governor of Arizona just a couple of days ago had sent out an edict forbidding such unessential procedures, and my doctor considers these procedures unessential.
“Was taking my blood pressure and pulse essential?” I ask bluntly. “Those procedures seem to me to be identical in nature to the lung function test, as well as you listening to my lungs with your stethoscope.”
“I don’t want to break the law.”
At this point the words of Charles Dickens came to mind: “The law is an ass!” I then say, in so many words, “What does Governor Doug Ducey know about medicine? He’s a stupid politician. You, my doctor, who specializes in respiratory illnesses, is a far better expert on the subject. You more than anyone should know when it is safe to give this test, and to whom. That you are allowing a politician tell you how to treat your patients is to my mind literally unethical.”
I then added, “Why did you even have me bother coming in?”
“I won’t bill you.”
“What I want is for you to give me the test. I am the patient, I know my condition. I am not going to make everyone in the office sick by doing this, and you know that.”
“Well, I need to find someone willing to do it–”
“Your assistant just told me he would, if you said it was okay.”
“Well, we will have to put you in a room we don’t normally use, to isolate you.”
“Sure. Find one.”
Eventually they did the test, my results were good, good enough in fact that the doctor suggested we could begin reducing my inhaler dosages. Hooray!
That I had to fight with him to get normal and required treatment however was very discouraging. Even more appalling is that the treatment required him, his assistant, and myself to defy a state-wide edict, essentially making us criminals.
You want to generate an utter contempt for the rule of law? Right now our ruling class is doing a marvelous job!
In a free society, it is the doctor and patient who decides. (Remember the liberal canon about being “pro-choice”?) More important, they know best, as they are closest to the problem. To allow a top-down blunt ruling by a state-wide official to block doctors from doing basic medical procedures is absurd, foolish, and certainly counter-productive.
It is also hostile to the basic tenets of freedom, which require all such decisions to come from the individuals involved, not some puffed up politician.
More Americans have got to start pushing back against these nonsensical edicts, as I did. We have got to start taking personal responsibility and demand the right to be free individuals, capable of making our own choices, freely.
We have got to stop being so afraid, of this relatively minor new virus, of politicians, and most of all, of our own shadow.
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That’s… insane. Not only while, but BECAUSE, a respiratory disease is going around… doctors can’t do respiratory tests?
This, along with the Nevada governor’s outlawing of an innocuous drug shown effective against the disease (apparently in yet another attempt to “get Trump”), tells me have finally gone over the cliff.
Tell your doctor to drink less soy milk and to join the NRA instead.
I am about to use the word “Stupid” properly in a sentence:
That is the stupidest story that I think I have ever heard.
Was their an emergency condition, other than the declared national emergency, in the doctors office that would have precluded him from treating you in his normal manner?
PS: From the real world:
Just spoke with a customer and friend who is an ICU nurse in a major Westchester hospital. She is burnt out, but was happy that one of the 30 people that are in the ICU who have the virus who are all intubated was taken off it today and they survived.
She also told me about another man, 45, with no other counter indications that died from the virus.
Time to prepare for civil disobedience and eventually insurrection, and to take back this country. The swamp will only be drained when we fight back. Kudos for verbally bitch slapping that doctor.
Hopefully in another week most governors will be mugged by reality and life will start to return to normal for most of us. Sadly it is going to take the treasurer of the state reporting the difference between revenue collected and bills due. I’d be surprised if that information didn’t change the state of emergency in most state.
From the Virginia Department of Health:
Test 5,370 Cases 391 Hospitalized 59 Deaths 9
Cases 11,216 Deaths 782
The only positive thing to say is that this insanity will end…probably in 6 months(?) let us pray.
““What I want is for you to give me the test. I am the patient, I know my condition. I am not going to make everyone in the office sick by doing this, and you know that.””
The problem with this virus is that no one knows their condition because it can lie dormant for some time before a person shows symptoms and people are contagious during this period of time. Even if someone were a total shut in a never came into contact with anyone for the last month, there isn’t any way for someone else to validate that.
Right now, about 1.4% of the people who have tested positive have died. As a percentage, it isn’t that high but if a hundred million get sick, that’s over a million dead. Because this virus is so contagious, it could easily sweep through the populace if things weren’t done to cut down on person to person contact for a little while.
It makes sense to treat this seriously but we can’t stay closed forever.
John, you’re not spared from the fun. In a couple of weeks those numbers should be way higher as COVID-19 has a different dynamics and impact than influenza. Haven’t looked up stats for Virginia, but I expect their hospitals don’t have the required surge capacity and soon doctors have to decide who’ll receive intensive care and who’s left to die (with sedatives and pain killers at least). You don’t expect your state to be more lucky than Italy or Spain, do you? You’re perhaps better of than CA or NY though, if that counts for anything. I actually hope that I’m wrong here and am okay with being called out for being a drama queen. Just wait until late April, will we?
Yyour doctor is not a Free Man!
The sad thing is, the gov will be re-elected with a comfortable margin, Nevadans are dead from the waist up.
xxxx0xxxx: Umm, what does this have to do with Nevada? I make it clear I live in Arizona.
First, dating that 1.4% is the infection rate is PURE stupidity. They aren’t doing tweets except on VERY limited number of people. My son went to get tested and read told of he hasn’t left the country(usa) he didn’t qualify for the test. So very few people are getting it. Do that means far far fewer than 1% actually ate dying from this.
As for Italy I have it from multiple sources that they have horrid medical care At the best of times. One is someone that was born there
That is a scary story. When supposedly free people start following rules and don’t know why, other than “those are the rules” that is a scary scenario. I wouldn’t expect many doctors to rebel against any rules, because they seem to be at the forefront of the “better safe than sorry” culture.
In another thread, we were asked what the difference is in day to day life between a socialist country and a free country. This is a classic example. In a free country, doctors are not told by politicians and bureaucrats how to practice their craft.
“We Heard The Bells: The Influenza of 1918”
“A Film by Lisa Laden, narrated by S. Epatha Merkerson, featuring Dr. Anthony Fauci.
Meet the survivors who describe what it was like to live through the 1918 flu pandemic.”
Bob that is ridiculous what happened to you, if this type of thing happens to enough people in Arizona, I am sure there will be some blow back in the coming weeks against the governor As for Nevada I had the same initial reaction as others here, but after further research, apparently the governor was doing that to protect the supply of hydroxychloroquine for serious cases, because they were starting to see some hoarding of the drug. Some doctors were getting lots of requests from patients for the drug as a prophylactic against covid-19 and some doctors were prescribing it for themselves and family members and friends.
I wish people would stop calling anyone in this country the “Ruling Class”. This is part and parcel of their immense hubris! First of all, class terminology is from Marx, not American foundation. These people are elected servants and not some neo-royalty. I know it seems a small thing to many, but this is exactly how the communists, whether in China or America, start to train people, by controlling the language, thus the culture. They are not “Elite” nor our “Rulers”; not yet anyhow.
I actually insist on using that phrase, for most of the same reasons. We are not supposed to have a neo royalty in this country. But we do. They are treated as such by the boot licking media that fawns over them. So much so, that some of them believe it themselves.
Interestingly enough, most of them are on the Marxist leaning left. They draw the class lines often in their political arguments.
The concept of social class existed before Marx, BTW. He simply tied his definitions of it to their standing in relation to the means of production. A narrow view to be sure.
I don’t care if people are rich, or even if they get elected a lot. What I’d do not like is the system that protects them from the laws the rest of us must live by, making excuses for them, covering for them. That is what makes them a ruling class.
It appears that this virus if it gets a hold of a particular person that is more susceptible to it for what ever reason, either their particular biology or condition? Or their is a variant of the virus that is more aggressive? It can and will kill you.
Here is the experience of an ICU doctor in Hawaii that parallels my ICU nurse friends experience.
Not everyone who gets it dies, but it is certainly scaring the hell out of the people who are directly dealing with it.
Two thumbs up, here are examples of two boot lickers that should never see the business side of a TV camera lens.
These two players insist that the people only play the 2 D chess that they and those who’s boots they lick offer the public, all while a 3 D chess game is underway. Michael, is an idealistic 2 D player, can’t see the forest for the trees.
Ian C, yes I do expect Virginia to not see anything near the disaster that is Spain and Italy. Those are the two biggest hotspots of Europe. For some reason you think Virginia is going to be hit harder than those places. If I read what you are saying correctly, New York and California are going to be suffer even more than Spain and Italy. In that case, why not end the state of emergency now? For what you say to happen, everything that has been done isn’t going mitigate the spread of COVID-19. I’m sure the number are going to get worse but no where near what you are predicting.
We’ll know which one of our views of what is going to happen is accurate before the end of April. Be well, be safe and I appreciate you taking the time to offer a different opinion.
“killing far more people than the Wuhan virus”
To date. We will not know until this thing has passed how high the mortality rate is.
Warner Baxter, Margaret Lindsay
I reported that I sent an email to a friend who is the CEO of a prominent bio therapeutics operation related to whether the virus based on a research paper that I sent him was either a function of nature or was it a function of manipulation? He sent me a page from a research paper on the subject which you can access at the bottom of this article on “The Time Bomb” that was / is the Corona virus.
(This potential of this specific kind of virus was well known by our government, all of their government employed crisis managers / consultants knew about the potential. And they ignored it, governor Cuomo ignored it, mayor DeBlasio ignored it and I assume most all of the rest of them did the same)
He high lighted for me: “The eating of exotic animals in Southern China is a time bomb. The possibility of the reemergence of SARS and other novel viruses from animals or laboratories and therefore the need for predaredness should not be ignored.”
Guess what? Whether it be natural or through manipulation those in charge in our government ignored it.
Covid19 did not make you and your doctor criminals. The heavy handed governor, who can’t allow doctors to use common sense, make you criminals.
GaryO95: You are right of course. I think I make that clear in the essay. The headline though has to be short and punchy.
Politicans getting between a person and their doctor….
Compare Mr Z’s story to the one out of Nevada banning Hydrochloriquine from use on sick patients.
Many thoughts on this…
Is there a character limit here?
sippin_bourbon: No limits other than my rules against obscenities and insults. However, comments are generally more effective if broken up into smaller bites.
Similar event happened to my son in the emergency room. Excuse was “new COVID19 protocols.” After pleading, they finally relented and provided needed medical treatment, but only after his oxygen level dropped.
With so many laws, everyone’s a criminal. Americans are going to need to get used to breaking them.
The ICU doctor’s text confirms what we know from other affected areas. In case anyone is curious, the triage process (deciding who receives treatment/resources when ICUs are overwhelmed) for COVID-19 usually discriminates against age (80 years, 75 years, perhaps younger, depending on the situation) and/or the presence of at least three preexisting conditions. They’re listed in this document, with hypertension, diabetes, and heart disease as leading comorbidities:
Let me revise my statement now after looking up some facts, I won’t say that VA will be hit harder than Italy or Spain. At least not by the end of April. CA and NY are different beasts though.
My intention is not to make alarmist prophecies (would gain me nothing: if it’s a nothing burger, I’ll look like a fool; if it is indeed the great culling, nobody would be around to admire my foresight). I just take a bunch of indicators and studies (and my experience from epidemiological modeling years ago) and derive scenarios.
When China locked down its cities in January and we consider international air travel, it was clear that something nasty is coming to the West very fast. First there’s ignorance and neglect, then panic and overreaction. We see many places in the West repeating the Wuhan outbreak with overwhelmed hospitals, lack of protection and equipment and infected staff, and then death rates going up due to untreated cases (and usually ignoring deaths from non-COVID patients who died because of the clogged up health system). Then the uncertainty: we have reports of “recovered” patients who die soon after (probably secondary bacterial infection), we see reinfections (what about immunity then?), we see that it might take longer with younger people due to their better immune system, and long-term effects are unknown though we have hints re affected organs (reduced lung volume, heart issues). We see domestic and foreign supply chains harmed and infrastructures reducing their capacity. While some outbreak-experienced countries like South Korea reacted quickly, which allowed them to have a strict but civilized and disciplined approach, the West lost around two months and now has to lock down cities and shut down the economy in a hurry. Nobody would do that for something on the level of influenza. I don’t expect the apocalypse, but I expect a lot of damage. (And if China didn’t cause it intentionally, it’s certainly utilizing the situation opportunistically against the West. Should we interpret it as an attack?)
“Right now, about 1.4% of the people who have tested positive have died. As a percentage, it isn’t that high but if a hundred million get sick, that’s over a million dead. Because this virus is so contagious, it could easily sweep through the populace if things weren’t done to cut down on person to person contact for a little while.”
STOP REPEATING THE FALSE CONCLUSION.
That number and the extrapolation of that number to the US population is asinine. It does not take into account those that have or have had the virus, have not been tested, and have had minimal or no symptoms.
It is this fire in the theater call that is driving the panic in every room including the halls of government. Until sanity is restored and this blind sheeping stops, we are headed toward a lot more deaths and misery than this virus can ever dish out.
I would repeat a stat John gave above:
From the Virginia Department of Health:
Test 5,370 Cases 391 Hospitalized 59 Deaths 9
Cases 11,216 Deaths 782
This Doctor took an oath “…to do no harm.” If he does not do the procedure he would be causing you harm. He needs to renew his vows.
Congratulations on your test results.
BOOK: “Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent” by Harvey Silverglate
“Harvard University professor Harvey Silverglate estimates that daily life in the United States is so over-criminalized, the average American professional commits about three felonies a day.”
Ok, first…. Boots on the ground report from Sweden…. I believe we are just about the only European country not on lockdown… The extent of disruption right now is advice to work from home if you can, gatherings of 500 + people are banned, but group meetings are discureged, try not to sit next to anyone on public transport, wash hands a lot, and bars and restaurants must have table service, rather than standing at the bar….. And tables must be 2 meters apart… As far as I can figure, that’s the only regulations so far… Nothing too Draconian… Apparently we are the experiment in the “herd immunity” theory. I’m all in, my 12 year old was outside in the spring weather today, playing with her friends, and my 14 year old has had his GF here for the last 36 hours, sneeking kisses where they can… We have all ( including the lads GF’s family ) had fever, coughs and feeling crappy… And recovered. Hopefully we have all missed the bullet.
My second point will be more controversial here… Bob… Your experience with a health professional rings very little different from those of us with public insurance… And as this virus does what it will do, I predict that you guys over there will suffer more, both physically, and economically because you have almost no public healthcare purse to utilize, and we here in Europe do. ( And we are struggling already) … I hope I am wrong, and we can continue arguing my socialist Vs your capitalist positions on the other end of this crisis… But I also fear that this bloody virus might overwhelm all our health systems.
I’ve never wanted to be wrong as much as I do today…. Let the storm come, then blow away…. But my gut feeling is we will come out of this situation a changed species … And hopefully for the best…. But who knows?
Stay safe my friends over the water… And look after each other!
I can’t get in to see my vet, although they did give me another months worth of meds after I paid for them over the phone. They said to let them know when I would be coming to get them and they would be in a cooler outside the back door.
Minor pedantry: I think the headline should be “made my doctor and me criminals”. I was taught that the way to determine nominative vs objective in a compound like this is to try it with only one of the choices:
“made me a criminal” vs “made I a criminal”. The former sounds better to me.
Happy to be corrected though.
@Cotour…. Good stuff with that link… I’m about to fall down the rabbit hole of science papers…. All good! A bit disturbing, but truth is truth!
@everyone else…. Stay safe!
Here’s the report from MN:
Total positive: 346
Patients who no longer need to be isolated: 134
Total approximate number of completed tests: 12,950
Approximate number of completed tests from the MDH Public Health Lab: 6,849
Approximate number of completed tests from external laboratories: 6,101
Total cases requiring hospitalization: 41
Hospitalized as of today: 31
And remember these are from people tested that have a reason to be tested – either they’ve had contact with someone who has it or are presenting symptoms.
This is a 2.67% positive rate, and a 0.32% hospitalization rate, and a 0.015% mortality rate. I think as long as the gross total of hospitalizations don’t outstrip the facility/equipment requirements, these rates can be expected to continue. And once testing becomes more widespread, the communicability factor will continue to go down.
In short, in two weeks we should re-open everything to low-risk populations. I am sending this message to my state and federal representatives. You all should too.
Thank you for your measured and thoughtful reply.
We have got to start taking personal responsibility and demand the right to be free individuals, capable of making our own choices, freely.
WHAT?!? You can’t do that! What if someone made the wrong choice? They might get hurt! We might have something less than perfect safety! Someone, somewhere, might eventually die! You can’t be serious!
*lights hair on fire and runs around the room screeching*
You don’t expect your state to be more lucky than Italy or Spain, do you?
Not luckier. Better prepared and equipped.
And, yes, drama queen.
class terminology is from Marx
Not entirely. But it leverages it. Why I also hate “capitalism” as a description of our toll-free market economy.
And what sippin said.
GWB: Watch yourself. I do not permit insults or name-calling. You can disagree as much as you want, but as soon as it devolves to playground childishness, I will shut it down.
You have been warned.
Bob, I explicitly said [*] that I’m fine with being called a drama queen (guess that’s the name-calling you mean) for my doomsday predictions. It’s rather my fault, not GWB’s.
The media fear machine:
A scientist at the Imperial College estimated that 500K Brits would die from Corona virus. (Levin was just talking about this)
Revises his estimate to 20K people may die, a 480K person adjustment.
We are just going to have to do the best that we can and see where it all winds up. And then, what about next time? We have shown our white under belly to our enemies. But its their white under belly also. That is unless the next time they have a cure and forget to mention that fact. Nah, the Chinese would never do that.
Ian C and GWB: I stand corrected. Twas all in fun.
ON THE CORONA VIRUS AND LEADERSHIP
Jan. 31st, Trump orders: Any foreign national who has traveled within China in the last 14 days will not be allowed to enter the United States, according to a proclamation from President Trump. The action is to prevent the spread of the new coronavirus, said US Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar. Azar also said that he was declaring a public health emergency in the US.
March 1, The first Corona virus patient hits NYC, and a public health emergency was declared by the Secretary Of Health. That is significant, you would think, no?
March 2: Twitter: Bill de Blasio@BilldeBlasio
“Since I’m encouraging New Yorkers to go on with your lives + get out on the town despite Corona virus, I thought I would offer some suggestions. Here’s the first: thru Thurs 3/5 go see “The Traitor” @FilmLinc. If “The Wire” was a true story + set in Italy, it would be this film.”
(Funny that Bill DeBlasio is interested in the movie “The Traitor”, if the shoe fits.)
And now both the mayor of NYC and the governor of NYS point their fingers at president Trump complaining that they do not have the necessary supplies and equipment to properly deal with the virus that has invaded NYC / NYS. And proceed to blame Trump because of their mishandling of their hospital system and their failure to properly prepare for a contagion that was well known and that had the potential to emerge from China all the way back in 2007. And the mayor on March 2nd, even though the president took that drastic action, was encouraging the citizens of the New York City to go out and do stuff, even though there was a real and present threat from this clearly identified Corona virus.
Just take a second and absorb all of that and balance what you are hearing from both the governor and the mayor in the media, and then tell me about what kind of leadership you see and where you see it. Maybe next presidential primary DeBlasio will shine? President Bill DeBlasio, “Progressive” / philosophical Marxist president of The United States. That has a real ring to it. (NOT)
Yeah, Trump is the problem here.
You have been warned.
Yes, sir. I will control myself.
You wrote: “I predict that you guys over there will suffer more, both physically, and economically because you have almost no public healthcare purse to utilize, and we here in Europe do. ( And we are struggling already)”
Actually, our insurance companies have plenty of purse to utilize. What has you most concerned are the areas in which government has interfered with our medical industry. New York, for example, failed to learn from the last virus scare and didn’t make preparations before this one came along. The various governments in this country often limit the number of doctors, so that when a crisis comes along we are guaranteed to have too few to handle the situation. My understanding is that these governments also limit the number of bed available. The limitations that concern everyone are government imposed.
The entire lockdown, over here, is due to government’s reaction to the virus. Rather than handling it the way Japan and South Korea did, it went the China/European route, and the failure of that method has resulted in these lockdowns in order to prevent overwhelming the limited resources that the states have allowed.
“Your experience with a health professional rings very little different from those of us with public insurance…”
Those of us who don’t rely upon government insurance have greater expectations than you seem to have and better service than Robert received, and we have these great expectations because we are accustomed to the better care.
When we let government be in charge, all we get is government’s priorities (in New York, that was solar power rather than disease outbreak). When we are in charge, we get our own priorities.
“With so many laws, everyone’s a criminal.”
Ayn Rand has a powerful section from Atlas Shrugged where we learn the motives of our “leaders”:
‘Dr. Ferris smiled. . . . . .”We’ve waited a long time to get something on you. You honest men are such a problem and such a headache. But we knew you’d slip sooner or later – and this is just what we wanted.”
“You seem to be pleased about it.”
“Don’t I have good reason to be?”
“But, after all, I did break one of your laws.”
“Well, what do you think they’re for?”
Dr. Ferris did not notice the sudden look on Rearden’s face, the look of a man hit by the first vision of that which he had sought to see. Dr. Ferris was past the stage of seeing; he was intent upon delivering the last blows to an animal caught in a trap.
“Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against – then you’ll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We’re after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you’d better get wise to it. [B]There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now, that’s the system, Mr. Rearden, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”[/B]’
And that’s the book where I got my screen name. It’s been the same since I first got on the Internet in 1997.
The article by the Hawaiian ICU doctor seems pretty overwrought given that at the time he was writing, there were just over 100 COVID-19 cases in the entire state.
The title’s grammatical error alone prevents it, the author, and the website from having any credibility.
Okay, Mr. Zimmerman, you’re now going back to elementary school. The word “I” is used as a subject, not an object. Take out the “doctor and” to see the absurdity you’ve created: “ . . . made I a criminal”.
A significant percentage of COVID-19 infected people appear to be simultaneously contagious and asymptomatic. That is the reason behind canceling nonessential procedures. What you and your doctor should have done is cancel the visit entirely. To claim he couldn’t give you the lung function test once you were in the clinic was stupid. Bringing you to the clinic exposed you, a particularly vulnerable person (age and asthma), to at least two people who could be infected with no way of knowing. If you acknowledge that the governor is being told by the experts he has available to him that this thing has the potential to overwhelm the medical system causing potentially thousands of excess deaths, then you pretty much have to accept that there is a rational basis for the order.
But you might want to get a new doctor. Having vulnerable patients expose themselves and then trying to withhold the treatment they were exposing themselves for demonstrates a rather pedestrian mind. You deserve better.
I forgot to explain a term I used. I am using “excess deaths” to refer to people who die because they are unable to receive the treatment they needed because health care systems are overwhelmed. So far COVID-19 has, as best as I can tell, caused the exact same number of excess deaths as seasonal flu – 0. It is the potential of COVID-19 to cause thousands of excess deaths that may justify the actions being taken.
@Edward, I fully understand that if I said black was black in Sweden, you would have to take time to explain why American black was blacker and better, but please have a look at your last post directed to me….
It’s great that the insurance companies have big funds put to one side… Good for the shareholders, not so much for the sick with no insurance. ( And if I hear one more comment along the lines of “it’s your own fault if you have no health insurance” I will scream. Be it due to poverty, or stupidity, no fellow human beings deserve to die because the health care system is broken. No fellow human beings deserve to die from preventable causes. Full stop. If you think differently, your litteraly an inhumane animal.) You also say Quote ”
Those of us who don’t rely upon government insurance have greater expectations than you seem to have and better service than Robert received, and we have these great expectations because we are accustomed to the better care.”…. Apparently you don’t have better service than Bob received… because Bob received the service that this whole post is about.
I’d just like to also point out that we are still the only country I know of that isn’t under some form of lockdown. Spring has sprung here in Sweden… I’ve just pumped up the tires and oiled the chain on my daughter’s bike so she go out and cycle with her friends, and shortly I will go out myself, on public transport, to get myself a box of wine for the weekend.
“Back in the USA”
Your doctor is protected by Roe v Wade and Casey. According to those precedents, medical decisions are to be made between the doctor and patient in privacy. The government is not allowed to stand between you and your MD.
@Peter 555, a serious question here… I am aware of Roe Vs Wade, Casey not at all.
I also presume that doctors over there all sign the Hippocratic oath, ( one has to respect a principal that has lasted over 2000 years!) , But how does it work with Doctor/patient/treatment over there? Over here some drugs and treatments are not available on our national insurance, the cost is too high, and the patient base is too small to be covered. ( Of course, private insurance is available… We have the same options as every American, just with a social safety net behind us ), I would like to know more about Casey, and also how does it work if you have a rare condition which requires a very expensive treatment? ( I’m actually thinking of a rare form of blood cancer I heard about which costs about $15000 per treatment, once a month, and will extend life by about perhaps a year ) . Our system will not pay for it. I understand, however heartbreaking, but would your insurance cover it?
Just curious…. Only tangential to the conversation here.
Roger Cantrell: Any excuse for not reading a dissenting point of view.
Couldn’t the governor be charged with practicing medicine without a license?
The link to Ducey’s rules and recommendations doesn’t give any reason for the doctor’s purported assertion that he can’t do it.
In fact, the whole report strikes me as absurd. What is with that doctor?? I’d go find another pulmonologist – there are plenty of them here in Arizona.
Of course a doctor can listen to someone’s lungs. Ducey hasn’t forbidden that. Good grief.
You wrote: ‘Edward, I fully understand that if I said black was black in Sweden, you would have to take time to explain why American black was blacker and better”
Which proves that you continue to not pay attention, otherwise you would know that we here do not think that the U.S. is as perfect as you think.
“please have a look at your last post directed to me….”
And look for what?
“It’s great that the insurance companies have big funds put to one side… Good for the shareholders, not so much for the sick with no insurance.”
Demonstrating that you have no idea how insurance works. No wonder you are so frightened of it. Go ahead ad scream. The choice to buy is one’s own. This is my choice, called self insured. Again, you have no idea how insurance works.
“Be it due to poverty, or stupidity, no fellow human beings deserve to die because the health care system is broken. No fellow human beings deserve to die from preventable causes. Full stop.”
This comment shows more of your ignorance as to how the healthcare system in the U.S. works.
“Apparently you don’t have better service than Bob received… because Bob received the service that this whole post is about.”
This is correct. It was lousy service, although you seem to think that good service is when you have to argue with your doctor to get the care that you have paid for. Oops: that your government paid for. For Robert, having to argue was unacceptable. Again, you failed to pay attention.
“I’d just like to also point out that we are still the only country I know of that isn’t under some form of lockdown. Spring has sprung here in Sweden… I’ve just pumped up the tires and oiled the chain on my daughter’s bike so she go out and cycle with her friends, and shortly I will go out myself, on public transport, to get myself a box of wine for the weekend.”
Are you expecting me to argue with you on these points, as though you said that black is black in Sweden?
“Of course, private insurance is available… We have the same options as every American, just with a social safety net behind us”
America has this same social safety net. If you need medical attention, you get it. Ours, however, does not cost us such a high tax rate, because most of us are willing to buy our own insurance. Or self insure.
“I understand, however heartbreaking, but would your insurance cover it?”
That depends upon the insurance policy. Mine would. Too bad yours doesn’t.
As for you being able to do anything that we do, well, you have some limits, such as having to argue with your doctor, as well as less money to do it with, and you have to pay higher prices (after VAT), so you get hit twice as to how little you can do, within your limits. When someone else takes care of you, that care results in limitations.
We can reasonably call your dependence on the government for your care to be “learned helplessness.” Since you do not know what “freedom” means, it is cute that you think that you have the same freedom as we Americans.
Edward wrote, “We can reasonably call your dependence on the government for your care to be “learned helplessness.” Since you do not know what “freedom” means, it is cute that you think that you have the same freedom as we Americans.”
Based on what I have seen so far of the general American response to this COVID lockdown, I don’t think most Americans know what freedom is anymore, and like the Swedes now have “learned helplessness.”
It is why I cry for the America I grew up in, and have now lost. Forever.
You wrote: “It is why I cry for the America I grew up in, and have now lost. Forever.”
The America I grew up in was lost when the Supreme Court ruled that it was acceptable for the government to tell us what to purchase. Where is “the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity” in that? Not enough people complained, back then, and young adults that I knew at that time even thought that it was a good idea “for the greater good.” Whatever that means.
hoping you’ll find this gem:
“Why is US health care system so expensive?”
–It took a long time for us to get to 2020.
It started with primary intervention, then moved to secondary intervention, tertiary intervention, etc. etc, and so on & so forth, ad infinitum.
One could safely say, the US “healthcare system” was morphed directly into quasi-socialism from the (relative) beginning and its only gotten worse at each step of the intervention ladder.
–For my purposes here, I would focus on the whole of the previous Century, starting with the “Progressive Era” & Fabian Socialism– truly an Alien-Ideology imported from Europe and antithetical to the ideals that founded America– on to FDR’s botching & worsening of the American Great Depression, LBJ’s utopian “Great Society” push, and on to Obama’s fundamental transformation and endless micro-managing.
I for one, would put forth the inevitable collapse, was baked in from the start, by hook or by crook. (If we were talking about the benign widget industry, nobody might care a whole lot, but as you have noted, it can be life or death.)
And when I look at the caliber of decision making from my so-called ‘leaders,’ with regards to “healthcare” (and practically everything else they destroy by touching) — these morons scare me to death with their utter stupidity, and they are going to drag us all under with their endless crap-o-la.
If it was accidental, it’s still a tragedy. If it was intentional, I call that Evil.