A reasoned look at masks and whether they really work
Link here. Based on my reading, he thinks they can be helpful, but only to a very limited extent, and certainly not to the extent of any government here in the U.S. requiring their use.
The point is: does any of what is out there add up to a watertight case for compelling people to wear masks in public or at work (outside a healthcare setting)? The threshold for compulsion must surely be higher than ‘maybe’ and ‘perhaps’. [emphasis mine]
We are supposed to be a land of freedom, of personal choice and personal responsibility. Research this, make your own decision, but do not force your choice on others.
Note that if you can’t see the article because they are demanding that you subscribe, refresh and immediately hit the escape key. If you time it right (it’s not hard), you can keep the article text up and block the subscribe screen.
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
Link here. Based on my reading, he thinks they can be helpful, but only to a very limited extent, and certainly not to the extent of any government here in the U.S. requiring their use.
The point is: does any of what is out there add up to a watertight case for compelling people to wear masks in public or at work (outside a healthcare setting)? The threshold for compulsion must surely be higher than ‘maybe’ and ‘perhaps’. [emphasis mine]
We are supposed to be a land of freedom, of personal choice and personal responsibility. Research this, make your own decision, but do not force your choice on others.
Note that if you can’t see the article because they are demanding that you subscribe, refresh and immediately hit the escape key. If you time it right (it’s not hard), you can keep the article text up and block the subscribe screen.
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
The Spectator’s US edition still uses an older subscription system. To read it w/o the protection, install a browser extension (like uMatrix) that lets you control Javascript (disable it for all except the spectator.us domain).
The main ways of transmission are the mouth, nose, and eyes. The mentioned hair, skin (except for the hands) etc. where the virus could stick are rather unimportant. The article engages in hairsplitting about virus vs. pore sizes, scenarios where a damp mask might even spread the virus to one’s neighbor etc. Face masks seem to work in Asian countries, where their use is widespread. Look at the crowded streets of Seoul or Taipei, and still their C19 numbers remain rather small.
Have an impression how that looks, they move close to each other and those not wearing one stick out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqj7l0Xk0Ho
Note that the corrupt WHO pretended to be against face masks in January until China had enough of them, then they changed the recommendation. (China’s expat networks bought masks and other protective supplies in boatloads in Western countries in January and February and shipped them to China, creating a shortage that was later blamed on hoarders.)
Note further that in Western countries, where face masks are mostly still in short supply for the public, official bodies recommend against wearing them… until they slowly become available. Same pattern. Pragmatic lies.
The article uses virus size compared to hole size in a mask. The problem is we don’t breath out raw viruses, we breath out water droplets that contain the virus. It is the size of these water droplets that matter. Also if the mask is wet (from breathing) surface tension will attract new droplets to the wetness.
It seems like the correct test is to compare two populations, one who uses masks and one who does not. To avoid the confounding variables use historical data for a flu season. While the virus sizes may differ the droplet size should remain constant.
I have never heard “the US flu rate is twice that of because people wear masks during flu season”. Seems like such news would be well published if it were true.
All that said, I don’t like to wear a mask.
If you look up the ‘effectiveness’ of masks, there are a number of standard measures. (there is a link at the article)
In mass common ordinary use, a large factor in play is that they minimize casual hand to face contact, as a physical barrier, and not so much via actual filtration of viruses.
-One needs to avoid sticking their fingers in their ears, eyes, nose or mouth. Everything else besides specialized masks in hospital/research setting’s, is psychological. (which can’t be overlooked– people feel better but for the wrong reason.)
A tangential question:
Anyone know anything about how allergy season, impacts flu & flu-type transmission in general?
As a general rule from what I can detect the actual function of a mask or face covering in this contagion event is primarily to limit the wearer in spreading what they may have emanating from their mouths and noses and not preventing their acquiring the virus.
I heard this reported, I finally found it.
“As the new coronavirus took root across America, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention sent states tainted test kits in early February that were themselves seeded with the virus, federal officials have confirmed”
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/cdcs-failed-coronavirus-tests-were-tainted-with-coronavirus-feds-confirm/
“Now, according to investigation results reported by The New York Times, federal officials confirm that sloppy laboratory practices at two of three CDC labs involved in the tests’ creation led to contamination of the tests and their uninterpretable results”
One lab maybe, but failed to follow protocols in “2” labs resulting in live virus being sent out to unsuspecting people? The incompetence is staggering!
Unless this was “intentional”, thinking the CDC will get more funding if they kill more people. This is criminal, devious, accelerating the spread of the virus. When this sort of thing happens, facemasks are irrelevant.
I have always use the logic, concerning global warming/climate change. To reduce the consumption of carbon by 80%, you must reduce the population by 80%. No demand, supply/consumption diminishes.
As for touching your face, there is a joke we tell at work that “the difference between a doctor and a mechanic is that a doctor washes his hands “after” he goes to the bathroom”.
If you are a carrier, and you wipe your eyes or nose, then it’s on your hands and it spread to everything you touch. Wash your hands before you go to the bathroom.
In the 1800s, everyone has gloves and a scarf to cover their face. Those times are back again. The technology and equipment exist to spray viruses in a protective gel medium over a city by a passing plane. If it is their intent to depopulate, round two next winter would be the perfect time. Those in charge are not trustworthy, they’ve proven their intent by their actions.
A mysterious blood-clotting complication is killing coronavirus patients
* https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/a-mysterious-blood-clotting-complication-is-killing-coronavirus-patients/ar-BB1336g0
Is this connected to earlier theories that it is mostly a blood disease which subsequently damages the lungs?
Here’s another article on the effectiveness of masks.
https://princetonlongevitycenter.com/research-updates-on-covid-19-masks-more/?utm_source=sendinblue&utm_campaign=Covid19_Newsletter&utm_medium=email
The stats are for medical grade masks against droplets and aerosols. The effectiveness varies between the three types of virus and droplet size. Of course, the science is not settled and this is just one study.
The article claims the effectiveness of non-medical masks is simply not known.
My bet is the masks are more to make people feel good, and give something politicians to point at and say, “You need us, we made everybody do something that helped”.
Rose, interesting read, couple of things I’ve seen is that a Chinese Dr was making a lot of noise warning his international colleagues a couple of months ago about people with very low blood oxygen levels without clinical signs of it – then them suddenly falling over, and reports that blood types affect susceptibility to Covid.
Cotour, you’ve been linking Dr. John Campbell’s videos, right? The first six minutes of today’s edition addresses masks. He supports them, suggesting that their main function is to break the momentum of your exhalation, limiting the distance microdroplets travel and limiting the chance of you infecting others, particularly important if you are infected yet asymptomatic or presymptomatic.
Wednesday 22nd April, Global Update
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFt2rCeHe4k
“In the 1800s, everyone has gloves and a scarf to cover their face. Those times are back again”.
There was also less physical contact, such as shaking hands.
Box seats at theatres were to keep the elite from having contact with the unwashed masses.
And inviting someone into your home was less common, a sign of trust.
A lot of older customs were based in limiting disease and disease vectors.
Another example, unrelated to bacteria and viruses, are hats. They were protection. I see stories about increases in nonmelanoma cancer in the last few decades. I suggest a lack of a hat, and other coverings, that have fallen out of fashion places a huge role.
So both attire and etiquette play roles in staying healthy.
Here we go….
“Assigned Protection Factors [APF] for the Revised Respiratory Protection Standard”
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/3352-APF-respirators.html
My chief take-a-way: (but look at the Table(s) oneself)
–The N95 masks have an APF= 10
–Hood Powered Air-Purifying Respirator (PAPR) APF= 25
–Full facepiece (Elastomeric) APF=50 (think Walter White Breaking Bad)
— self-contained positive pressure breathing apparatus full face and hood, APF = 10,000
wayne
April 22, 2020 at 8:18 pm
Here we go….
“Assigned Protection Factors [APF] for the Revised Respiratory Protection Standard”
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/3352-APF-respirators.html
My chief take-a-way: (but look at the Table(s) oneself)
–The N95 masks have an APF= 10
–Hood Powered Air-Purifying Respirator (PAPR) APF= 25
–Full facepiece (Elastomeric) APF=50 (think Walter White Breaking Bad)
— self-contained positive pressure breathing apparatus full face and hood, APF = 10,000
The last unit Wayne brought up could be done for fairly low cost in mass production. And it could have some side benefits that would make it actually desirable to wear. A fairly small amount of heating or cooling capability in the head area could increase comfort in many work environments. I’m thinking under $200.00 in mass production for something that people in very cold or very hot environments would wear by preference. Filtration of pollen, air pollution, and dust in the air would be major selling points even in the absence of epidemics. Would need to work on aesthetics though, most of the units I’ve seen look horrible.
John–
The full facepiece respirators (ala Breaking Bad) appear to be in a range from $300-$800 each. The self-contained breathing apparatus [SCBA] full face and hood– start around $1K the unit.
[Honeywell, for one, makes a wide variety of these.]
SCBA, even if mass production can make it less expensive, is not practical for regular wear.
I have had some training while wearing these things.
First, a bottle of air that is easy to carry lasts about 30 mins. Once it runs out, it is very uncomfortable to wear, not matter how you modify it. This is because the bottle is your ONLY source of air, as your mask should be sealed to your face. The bottle empties, you try to inhale, and the mask only suctions harder to your face.
A bigger bottle? Okay, but that will add weight.
I guess you could drag a compressor around to refill you every 30 mins.
And a spare bottle to swap with while that one refills.
And bring a friend to swap them because otherwise you have to take it all of yourself. I have not ever seen anyone swap one while wearing the SCBA and harness.
And don’t forget to clean it all thoroughly after every use.
If they became in much higher demand, how much do you think that price might drop? I was going by my estimate of what I could build a simple unit for and extrapolate from there.
I will accept being wrong at the current time. I think a few market changes might swing the prices sometime in the future.
A system like this one is the better and more workable sealed air system that allows the filtering of the air through a battery power pack that forces “fresh” air into a sealed around the face helmet. An air tank? Only in emergency conditions like a fire or similar event.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/All-3M-Products/Safety/Worker-Health-Safety/Personal-Protective-Equipment/Powered-Supplied-Air-Respirators/?N=5002385+8709322+8711017+8711405+8720539+8720547+3294857497&rt=r3
Not ideal for most people, but its an effective light weight portable solution that is probably the most reliable and practical, very 2001 A S O. But I doubt if things will be going quite that far.
Damn! Now I want one.
https://youtu.be/0tr1LlNo3k8
You guys are talking about stuff like in apocalyptic movies. Without a decontamination station, sticking to the right procedures, and perhaps a pressured room, all that is pretty worthless. Face masks, if worn by many, result in mutual protection. If you need to protect yourself (esp. if you’re among the at-risk group), N95 or N99 masks will do the job. Add some goggles or face shield or wear glasses to protect the eyes if you prefer. In the end, it’s a probability game. Start with equipment you can handle and go from there if you feel like it. If you really want to do the apocalyptic thing, look for CBRN equipment and hide in the woods.
A discussion about the best and most profitable mask and whether they are practical is interesting, but I think everyone is missing one very important point: The effort to compel people to wear them.
It is here that society falls apart, in so many ways I have trouble cataloging them.
Bob,
It is here that society falls apart
Not my intention to downplay your concern, I think to understand where you’re coming from. It’s the seemingly little things that open the doors to a growing nanny state and loss of freedom. We differ where we start being alarmed, you start at mandatory masks, I’d start at forced vaccinations or chipping.
But aren’t discussions about masks or vaccinations negligible when compared to the societal fault lines, which I consider more dangerous? All the interest groups that now want their share of “free money” and privileges. The politicization of the subject, like anything climate. The distrustful atmosphere. Faster than I expected. Even if this is a nothing burger (which I don’t believe), what we already see here is ugly and concerning. Mandatory masks and vaccines are only a symptom of that. How do we deal with that?
Our views aren’t contradictory by the way. Yours is from the bottom-up, where the loss of freedom becomes visible first. Mine is rather top-down. If we’d live in a free society with self-reliant, (self-)responsible people, would a discussion about mandatory masks or vaccines be necessary in the first place? And if so, would we have a less polarized handling of the whole affair because we could trust our fellow citizens and government a bit more?
Im just commenting on the mobile and light weight technology and not promoting their use in this virus environment, not for the public any way.
My apologies Robert. Tech fascinates me. I am an inventor and tinkerer. I was picturing a bubble head jacket with elastic at waist and wrist with battery pack and fan on the belt I was thinking of something people would prefer under more normal circumstances.
At the end of the day, I expect a few more people will react adversely to “let the government handle it” for many values of it.
Once again prescient and ahead of the curve, right here on BTB: https://theweek.com/speedreads/910577/trump-adviser-suggests-reopening-economy-by-putting-everybody-space-outfit
The issue of compelling people to wear masks is not a personal freedom issue as the mask is not to protect the wearer but to protect the general public. It is not an issue of assuming personal risk, it is a matter of putting others at risk. The law is full of examples of safety requirements for the common good. The law can even require compliance to social norms. If they can force you to wear pants, they can force you to wear a mask.