New Zealand confisicates guns; gun crime goes up


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This is par for the course: New Zealand’s April 2019 gun control law, which made almost all guns illegal and required their confiscation, has resulted in the past year in the most gun crimes in a decade.

This week the first evidence vindicating this position came in when Radio New Zealand (RNZ) published figures it had obtained from the government showing that for last year crime involving firearms was the highest it had been since 2009.

According to an RNZ article titled, “Rates of gun crimes and killings using guns at highest levels in a decade in 2019,” last year “there were 3540 occasions where an offender was found with a gun​.” The report went on to note that “in both of the last two years, the rate of deadly incidents involving a firearm was the highest it had been since 2009” and that “[t]he number of guns seized by police is also on the rise, up almost 50 percent on five years earlier at 1263 last year.​” Making clear that the figures cited in the article were not skewed by the horrific shooting in Christchurch, the report noted that “[t]he 15 March terror attacks were listed as two separate firearms-related incidents.​”

This is the pattern in Chicago, New York, Australia, Great Britain, anywhere strict gun control laws are passed. Gun crime goes up. The criminals routinely don’t obey the law, so they keep their guns, while the innocent citizens who do obey the law and turn in their guns become helpless targets for the criminals.

But what matters logic and facts. The gun control made us feel good, and feel-good gestures are the rule of modern society. God help us.

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27 comments

  • Andrew_W

    New Zealand’s April 2019 gun control law, which made almost all guns illegal and required their confiscation,

    Untrue, there are over a million firearms in NZ, mostly bolt action rifles, rimfire rifles and shotguns, all of which remain legal, this law made less than 10% of firearms illegal, apparently most owners thought the price paid for their weapons appropriate.

    The RNZ article:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416881/rates-of-gun-crimes-and-killings-using-guns-at-highest-levels-in-a-decade

    “there were 3540 occasions where an offender was found with a gun​.”
    Translation: Someone who broke the law owned a gun, in most cases that ownership was legal. These are NOT incidents in which an offender used a firearm in a threatening manner, or while committing an offense.

    And in both of the_last_two_years_, the rate of deadly incidents involving a firearm was the highest it had been since 2009.
    Which means that there’s no evidence that the governments April 2019 gun control law caused any increase in gun crime because 2018 comes before 2019.

    Over the last 15 years there have been 202 intentional homicides in NZ (excluding shootings by police), that’s including the 51 in the Christchurch attack, so excluding Christchurch that’s running at 10/year. Claims made that the Christchurch attack, which was counted as two incidents, would not affect the numbers are false.

    Having said all that I can add that I do not agree with the change in legislation, it was rushed through quickly exploiting the “heat of the moment”, very few homicides committed in NZ have been committed by legal owners using the now outlawed weapons, so the change was not justified in my view.

    So while the removal of those firearms from owners won’t result in much if any reduction in firearms homicides, there’s zero evidence that the April 2019 legislation has caused any increase in firearms crimes outside of a likely increase in the crime of continuing to own a now illegal firearm.

  • Andrew_W

    “202 intentional homicides”
    Correction: “202 intentional gun homicides”

  • Andrew_W

    “[t]he number of guns seized by police is also on the rise, up almost 50 percent on five years earlier at 1263 last year.​”

    It’s well known in this country that after the Christchurch killings the police were more enthusiastic about cancelling firearms licenses and seizing guns from owners than they had been previously , the police have too much power here and simply having a domestic with your spouse can result in the loss of your firearms license.

  • wayne

    Andrew_W:

    Q: Exactly which guns have been specified as illegal?
    Q: What is the Population of NZ?

  • Cotour

    Lets consult a real expert, no quotation marks, on the issue of guns and crime:

    https://youtu.be/mHg7aZeQY0U

    I find this to be very interesting: “Translation: Someone who broke the law owned a gun, in most cases that ownership was legal. ”

    Is that so? If you break the law in NZ your owning a firearm is calculated into the statistics? If so I find that strange at the minimum. Please substantiate / provide evidence. I don’t doubt it, we are talking about people who live up side down on the other side of the planet. I would love to visit some day.

  • Phill O

    You will not see me moving to NZ. EVER

    However, moving to SW America (where open carry is permitted) could be!

    A friend in Manitoba hired a NZ beekeeper for the Canadian summer. Their ways parted quite quickly as he could not motivate the fellow to move. He guessed the NZ hives can be managed “whenever” while there is little time to doddle on the prairies. Seems to be a problem with Australian workers also.

    My conclusion is that the more socialist the country, the lazier the people.

  • Andrew_W

    Wayne.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_New_Zealand#Categories_of_firearms_after_changes
    I’ve only a couple of .22 RL with 10 round mags, one bolt one SA so wasn’t directly affected by the changes.

    Cotour: If you break the law in NZ your owning a firearm is calculated into the statistics?
    Not really, the article is based on information obtained from police under the Official Information Act, so a list of questions was sent to the police that they were legally required to provide the answers to, not answers that can be found in the statistics, the clue to what the question was is in the phrasing “Last year, there were 3540 occasions where an offender was found with a gun”. When the police go into a house with search warrant or due to a domestic incident they might either find guns during their search or find out if there are any guns there because of the domestic situation. If a gun owner is arrested, on whatever charge “an offender was found with a gun”.
    The cops would have had to have gone back through the years incident reports to locate the requested information.
    I’m confident these are not “armed offender” incidents because they make the news about 2 or 3 times a month, they don’t happen 3540/12 times a month, a ridiculously high number in this sleepy country.

    Phill O

    And I wont move to Australia, the ones that come over here kill dozens of people in mass shootings. Obviously it’s safe to stereotype everyone in a country from one example.
    Incidentally, Edmund Hillary was an NZ apiarist, he moved OK.

  • Andrew_W

    Phil
    Index Of Economic Freedom
    https://www.heritage.org/index/

    NZ #3
    USA #17

    Socialism is system of state control over the economy, so the US is more socialist than NZ.

  • wayne

    Andrew_W:
    Wasn’t Edmund Hillary named after Hillary Clinton? (That’s a joke…)

    My gosh, I hate Wikipedia…..(but not your fault)
    -I can’t really tell what was outlawed, except for accessories, and machine guns, and ‘select-fire assault type weapons.’ whatever those are.

    What is the population of NZ?
    I’m in Michigan, we have about 10 million people.

  • Cotour

    “Socialism is system of state control over the economy, so the US is more socialist than NZ.”

    And now you understand why the arguments here become so intense on that particular subject.

    Self education is the best, that is if you understand that you are in deed educating yourself.

  • Andrew_W

    Wayne:What is the population of NZ?|
    We were a little short of 5 million for years, then Covid turned up and a couple of hundred thousand expats rushed home and now just over 5 million ;-)
    (you really need to learn how to use a search engine)

    Cotour
    I was being a bit tongue in cheek, NZ is more social democracy than socialism, Bernie, and many others, don’t know the difference.

  • Cotour

    No, they do understand, there is little to no difference.

    Democrat Socialism, Socialism, its all the same.

    Democratic Socialism: “Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates for political democracy alongside a socially owned economy, with a particular emphasis on workers’ self-management and democratic control of economic institutions within a market socialism economy, or some form of a decentralised planned socialist economy. Democratic socialists argue that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the values of freedom, equality and solidarity and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realisation of a socialist society. Although most democratic socialists seek a gradual transition to socialism, democratic socialism can support either revolutionary or reformist politics as means to establish socialism. As a term, democratic socialism was popularised by social democrats who were opposed to the authoritarian socialist development in Russia and elsewhere during the 20th century.”

    Please note all of the times the word “Socialism” is used in the definition and the main tenant of the belief system “A Socially owned economy”, and here: “Although most democratic socialists seek a gradual transition to socialism, democratic socialism can support either revolutionary or reformist politics as means to establish socialism. “.

    A pig, is a pig, is a pig, and I do not means to disparage actual pigs here.

    “Democratic Socialism” is a word game dodge, a psyops manipulation of the weak minded that the Leftists use to pander to fed up actual Democrats who can not stand their current leadership, specifically in America. They label themselves as “Progressives” and that too is suppose to make actual Socialism more acceptable, it sounds so positive and constructive (Iv been over this many times).

    A pig is a pig no matter how you dress it up, whther that pig lives in America or NZ.

  • Cotour

    Andrew W:

    This is an appropriate tee shirt for you:

    https://www.cafepress.com/mf/113572937/im-for-flag-classic_tshirt?productId=368586432

    Keeping in mind that it is all just Liberal / Leftist / Socialist happy talk and everything listed is actually the opposite of what is intended. There, now you perfectly understand.

    Again, the likes of AOC and Bernie understand perfectly what they intend, its you who have not got a clue.

  • Andrew_W

    Well, I admit I’m in favour of: Integrity, honest leaders, election integrity, an independent free press. Are you opposed to such things?
    As for the others things on the tee shirt, I’m not sure I’d define them in the same way as someone who’d want that shirt, what does “equal rights” mean? If it’d said “equality of opportunity”, well, yes, I’m all for it.

  • Andrew_W

    I have always used this definition of “social democracy”, which had been the more common way of defining it outside of the US, Social Democracy is a system with substantial social safety nets and government involvement in heath and education etc but a system in which government largely stayed out of the productive sectors of the economy like agriculture, industry and finance, such that often those areas were less constrained by government meddling than in economies like the US.
    Unfortunately the US definition of social democracy is now becoming more common globally.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/

  • Cotour

    You are a bit of an idealistic Boy Scout here, the tee shirt is just idealistic happy talk.

    Its all just Liberal / Leftist happy talk, a manipulation, a psyops, nothing more nothing less.

    In the end there is nothing Democratic about it, its just Socialism, its a pig, just like the definition clearly lays out and explains.

  • Cotour

    Bernie is in fact a philosophical Communist truth be told, and Democratic Socialism, as is just plain old every day Socialism, are pigs.

    In your idealistic mind you want everyone to believe they are beautiful swans, but they are pigs. I will repeat it for as long as you or anyone else who reads these interactions, where ever they live on this planet, needs to hear it.

  • Edward_2

    WW 2 was a Socialist War (National SOCIALIST and Soviet SOCIALIST) against the entire World.

    Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

  • Andrew _W

    “National Socialist.”
    Yeah, right. And North Korea must be a democracy, cos it says so right there in its name: Democratic People’s Republic Of North Korea.

  • Edward_2

    Andrew_W, Which country most closely, correctly, implements Socialism?

  • Andrew _W

    Today? Cuba.
    North Korea is closer to a feudal monarchy
    China authoritarian but with aspects of socialism and fascism along with some features close to a rightwing dictatorship.
    There are a few South American countries like Ecuador and Paraguay that aspire to socialism but still have plenty of private ownership in the productive sectors. Venezuela is similarly strongly socialist but still mixed in economic terms but also authoritarian. So, yep, off the top of my head Cuba would be the best representation of socialism in the world today.

  • Andrew _W

    If you believe socialism is an economic system that’s inefficient and prone to failure (as I do) you’d be a bit stupid to suggest a rich developed country with a sound economy as a good example of socialism. Though that is the contradiction many simple people critical of socialism overlook when they naively offer the Scandinavian countries as examples of socialism.

  • Jerry Greenwood

    Those stats are deceptive and nothing could be reliably drawn from them. Because the act of owning a gun is now a crime anyone in possession of a gun becomes part of the stats even if they are stopped for jay walking.

  • Mike Borgelt

    “Bernie is in fact a philosophical Communist truth be told”

    So is Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Probably more actual than philosophical, though. Former president of Socialist Youth International.

    New Zealand, sound economy? have another look in a few months. One of the most bureaucrat ridden countries in the world and the people love it that way.

    Nice place, ruined by left wing government, like so many others.

  • Andrew_W

    Mike Borgelt: “One of the most bureaucrat ridden countries in the world and the people love it that way.”
    Government expenditure, percent of GDP
    https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/JPN/GBR/SWE/ITA/ZAF/IND/CHL/FRA/GRC/NLD/ESP/RUS

    NZ: 34.88%
    Australia: 36.37%
    USA: 41.45%

    2020 Index of Economic Freedom
    NZ #3
    Australia #4
    USA #17

    While I don’t disagree with Borgelt’s criticisms of Ardern, his criticism of NZ is typical Kiwi bashing Aussie narcissistic nonsense.

  • wayne

    Edward_2:
    Good stuff.
    I would characterize WW-2 in part, as Nationalist-socialism vs. Internationalist-socialism.

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