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Protesters continue to shut down TMT

Mob rule: Though an agreement has been reached between the anti-telescope protesters and the mayor of the Big Island to move a tent blocking the access road to Mauna Kea, the deal also provided that no construction will proceed, even though the consortium that is building the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) has gotten legal permission to do so.

They agreed to move the so-called “kupuna tent,” referring to the Hawaiian word for elder, as part of a deal announced by Big Island Mayor Harry Kim.

In exchange, Kim promised protesters there will be no attempts to deliver construction equipment to the telescope site “anytime soon,” according to Kim’s offer letter to Noe Noe Wong-Wilson, one of the protest leaders who is considered a kupuna. “I, Mayor Kim give you my personal assurances that no attempt will be made to move TMT construction equipment up the mountain for a minimum of two months,” his letter said.

Legally Kim doesn’t really have the right to do this, unless Hawaii has decided to completely abandon the rule of law. Then again, Hawaii has decided to abandon the rule of law, as it now lets mobs, not the law, determine who can build where and when.

Conscious Choice cover

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  • Robert Pratt

    This is another example (of many things) but why an armed populace with the right to used lethal force to protect property, as we have in Texas, is so important. Some folk tried blocking access to an oilfield facility a few years back and were shocked when regular folk turned up armed to get through.

  • Lee S

    Now this really amazed me…. Yes my left wing society annoys you, and yes, we tend to accept and obey the democratically elected govenmental decisions… Which to be fair.. is how a democracy is meant to work… We vote in a left wing wing government, and we live with it until the next election… I was under the impression that is how democracy works.
    How on earth are a few protesters holding up such an important science project? At the very least there should be a local referendum, and a discussion with the protesters… I’m sure throwing a few dollars at the Ney sayers will both give them what they are really after and allow the telescope to be built… Is that not how it works over there also?
    I live in a land with indigenous people that roam over 3 boarders… ( Google SAMI )… And while I respect their right to live their traditional raindeer herding lifestyle, I never met one that didn’t own a car …
    I know I’m actually singing to the choir here, but if the good folk of Hawaii want the protection of being a state? Or Protectorate? Of the US, are they not obliged to respect the rules?
    If a small community of Sweden were to object to some sort of project, there would be a local conversation, then a national conversation, and a definitive decision made ( this happened regarding a nuclear waste storage facility up in the Norland granite a few years back… It was democratically voted down)
    No great protests, just democracy….

  • wayne

    South Park
    “Dawg the hall way monitor”

  • Lee S

    Actually, I’m just trying to wind you up… Sorry… I acctually disagree with the locals throwing all the cards up… My post is 3 quarters serious… Calling something “sacred” is 75% likely to be a call for cash… But I don’t know the situation over there.
    A sit down and a cash sum will no doubt sort the situation out.
    I can’t fault the indigenous folk for wanting recompense for stuff built on their land…. But like I said… TBH… Capitalism… You have something I need…. What’s the price?

  • Lee s

    @wayne…. That was funny… It made me laugh… ( I enjoy your Clips!), But I totally fail to see the relevance?

  • Gealon

    On a completely nonsensical note, Harry Kim went from the Ops Officer on a state of the art Star ship to being a Hawaiian Mayor? Harry, you should have made Admiral by now. What happened?

  • wayne

    Good stuff!

    Lee S–
    Dog the Bounty Hunter, lives & works in Hawaii.

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote: “Yes my left wing society annoys you

    These protesters are left wingers. Whenever they don’t get their own way or the rules don’t favor them this time around then they throw temper tantrums, such as blocking legally approved construction projects or impeaching democratically elected presidents. Because this is how leftists think, this is a major reason why leftist society annoys us. They do not accept democracy or anything unless it goes their way.

    Doesn’t behavior like this remind you of your children when they were three years old?

  • Lee S

    @wayne…. Ahhh!! ( Light dawns on my marble head!)
    @Edward…. You wrote “Because this is how leftists think, this is a major reason why leftist society annoys us. They do not accept democracy or anything unless it goes their way.”…. If you actually read my post you may have noticed how I respect and actively promote democracy and the rule of law.
    It bugs the crap out of me that the current crop of snowflake idiots who want to close down free thinking and think they can shut down anything they dislike by (sometimes violent) protest are branded “the left”… They are not. By this logic , socialist old me must be a centerist… I’ve banged this drum here before… But you really need to either find a new term to describe the disturbingly fascist movement which has emerged over the last few years, or find a new term to describe my political/social views… I have been “left” for much longer than these idiots have been around… To have the term hijacked annoys me no end. I AM a socialist, but that is disturbingly close sounding to “national socialist”, and that is much closer to the protesters we are discussing. Left I certainly am, Nazi I most certainly am not.
    So can we please stop painting myself, and the vast amount of the left of center population with the same brush as the protesters who close down anything they disagree with, and actively seek out reasons to be offended…. In your eyes ( and many people’s eyes), by using the same word for both of our ideologies, it makes us the same… And nothing could be further from the truth.

  • Lee S

    and yes… It reminds me a little of my kids when they were small, although I have a very un-swedish parenting approach… They both threw temper tantrums in the supermarket… Once.
    I never smacked them ( although the boy has had a clip around the ear a few times.. illigal here tho it is!) But they were instantly picked up under my arm and removed from the store, taken outside, sat down, and had the situation explained to them… By a father looking like he was about to explode… ( Which I was!!). I have never had my children screaming and beating on me while I stroked their hair an in a calm voice and asked them to find their happy space…. If they acted like little erm… Poos… Then they got both barrels off angry dad.
    They are the politest and best behaved ( mostly, for teenagers!) Kids around, they know to use their pleases and thank yous, and prefer to live with occasionally angry Dad…. Boundaries are set, and enforced.. my apartment is not acctually a democracy, not until they start contributing to the rent. Then it becomes much more socialist ;-)
    Perhaps the lack of discipline and freedom to do whatever they want, with no boundaries, is the reason for the current crop of snowflake protesters… I don’t know, but my son, his GF, and my daughter have chosen to spend New year’s Eve with me, rather than their mother… Even tho I’m the disciplinarian in the family….
    Thinking whilst writing, you could be on to something…. No firm boundaries in childhood could lead to no firm boundaries in adult life…. Such as the idea that you can close down anything you dislike by shouting loud enough.
    That doesn’t happen in my house… And I’m left! ;-)

  • wayne

    Lee S–

    Dr. Jordan Peterson
    (from “12 Rules for Life”)
    Rule #5: “Don’t Let Your Children Do Anything That Makes You Dislike Them”

  • Ian C.


    Your idea of “the left” is pure nostalgia. Some decades ago, the Socialist/Social Democrat parties in the West with their mixed economy, adequate regulation, moderate redistribution approach were rather sane and worked in the interest (upward social mobility) of their voter base.
    Then some in the left wanted to push the revolutionary goals and found that the working classes were in favor of the existing system, thus were no longer the “revolutionary element of history.” So they started looking for new victim classes to speak for and use as a lever for their agenda. They address legitimate issues but then overdo it and move to the next: women, homosexuals, immigrants, transsexuals. Until they’ve found the ultimate victim class (that can’t even talk back), the climate.

    Your idyllic view of the left is so last century. Industrialization, prosperity for all, rule of law and all that. Now they aim for deindustrialization, eco-friendly poverty (for the masses, not the functionaries and profiteers), and free speech becomes hate speech. Perhaps you haven’t realized it, but you’re no longer their target voter. Now that they agitate against “old White men” who’re robbing “the youth” and “the Planet” the future, you’re the target.

  • Questioner


    A realisitic view of your idol:

    Ripping Apart Jordan Peterson’s Faux Intellectualism

    Dii Moffatt (12 months ago):
    “Peterson’s 12 rules are just what your mother always told you – but using big words.”

    KLJF (10 months ago):
    “intelligent people put complex ideas into simple forms , the semi intelligent hide simple concepts under mountains of waffle.”

    Nickikiddi (1 year ago):
    “The irony is that in his obscure writing style he imitates a caricature of postmodernism, a movement he so vehemently opposes.”

    David Landry (8 months ago):
    “Peterson is a liar. He lied about C16, he lied about his honorary membership in a Canadian First Nations tribe, he went to court as an ‘expert witness’ in two cases (one family court, and the other a murder case) and [deleted] so horribly that the judges not only dismissed his hot mess for the garbage it was (not just having a different opinion, but took apart his methodology and called out his lies, not only writing the reasoning for not using Peterson’s nonsense in their decision, but adding commentary to emphasize just how outside the bounds of good science and reasoning Peterson strayed, one judge saying of Peterson’s claims “this is a close to junk science as I’ve ever been asked to consider’.)

    There’s a reason Peterson is self published … peer reviewed journals (real ones) would not touch his insane ramblings.”

    Commenter Topu ( 1 year ago):
    “That was awesome, thanks for putting it all in order. There’s so much wrong with people treating that guy like Jesus.”

    Commenter NeoRipshaft (10 months ago):
    “He’s a sophist, of a sort common within modern academic philosophy. These are people who can afford to be disconnected from reality, and do not readily connect their words and beliefs with their effects in reality, and do not try to nor want to effectively measure their own beliefs against reality. Peterson isn’t necessarily dishonest, it’s more that this concept doesn’t really apply to him and people like him. It’s enough to say that he’s harmful.”

    Laura Carson (1 year ago):
    “To me, the evidence that indicates he is in it for the money and the fame is his frequent contradictions, his vague answer to specific questions, and his walking back of statements he made. People who believe what they say don’t have those issues to the degree that Jordan Peterson does. Forget his message just look at how he delivers it.”

    Robert Moffat (10 months ago):
    “I don’t even class him beyond a middling intellect. He’s just a shit-disturber academic. That in itself is refreshing. It’s allowing him to make a lot of money, but I don’t think he deserves to be taken seriously as a thinker. There’s nothing original about his ideas. However that doesn’t make it sophistry.”

  • wayne

    Back to the TMT briefly…..
    Mr. Z. is on point– a breakdown of the Rule of Law.
    Just one more thing, that does not bode well for the near future.

    Good stuff.
    I would toss in the importation of Fabian socialism and the entire “progressive” movement in our history. (Not to mention the 16th & 17th Amendment’s to our Constitution. Two heavy duty firewalls against the concentration of power were essentially breached; direct taxation without enumeration, and the direct election of US federal Senators. We haven’t been close to OEM specs for around 100 years, and the chickens are coming home, to roost. (so to speak)

    So, whaddayathink about a Dave Rubin and perhaps someone like Ben Shapiro, or Mark Levin?
    (This should be interesting….)

    Murray Rothbard
    -brief comments on the Origins of the Progressive Movement-

  • wayne

    “The American Economy and the End Laissez-Faire: 1870 to World War II”
    Lecture 9 (of 13),
    “The Progressive Era?”
    Murray N. Rothbard
    New York Polytechnic University 1986.
    (Recorded by Hans-Hermann Hoppe.)

  • Questioner: I have deleted the obscenity from your comment. You have been here awhile, you should know the rules. No obscenities. And it doesn’t matter that you are quoting someone else. You can easily “bleep” out the curse words when quoting.

    You are suspended from commenting for a week. Though I detest your neo-Nazism more than you can possibly imagine, for both intellectual and very personal reasons, I am not suspending you for those reasons. In a week you can come back and spout your obscene intellectual ideas, ideas that led to the genocide of millions in the 20th century. I only allow you to do so with the hope that the responses from my audience will reveal you for what you are.

  • Lee S

    @ Ian C….
    You do realise there is there is a world beyond the boarders if the USA? Have you ever visited anywhere else? A much more socialist environment exists elsewhere beyond the borders of the the all mighty USA.. and we are doing quite all right… And yes, we still have idiots, as do every group, no matter what criteria you define “group” by, but believe me…. The left, and our social society based thinking is far from dead… To say so is to 1, show your ignorence of the wider world, and 2, show your ignorence of the history of politics.
    Many of the right wing governments here in Europe would be classed as so left wing as to be almost Communist over there… We have a long history of social care… indeec, we have a long history…Do not be so quick to judge… Time will tell, but your comment that “the left” is politically dead makes no sense on the world stage, and you never know in your homeland… You have an election coming up soon…. ;-)

  • Dick Eagleson


    There is nothing “faux” about Peterson’s “intellectualism.” He’s the real deal.

    12 Rules goes appreciably beyond anything my mother ever told me. As for “big words,” maybe I just know the meanings of more words than Prof. Peterson’s detractor. I had no difficulty understanding Prof. Peterson’s book. Which is more than I can say for most of what passes for “scholarship” in the leftist echo chamber that is the academy these days.

    The concepts Peterson discusses in 12 Rules can be stated simply and he does so – in his one-line chapter headings. But there are also subtleties and complexities underlying these concepts. As Einstein famously said, “A thing should be a simple as possible, but not simpler.” It’s a bit rich that leftist academics and self-styled intellectuals, who have dismissively lectured we poor benighted right-wingers for decades about how allegedly superior are your side’s grasp of subtlety and nuance to now be beating up Peterson over his explications of subtlety and nuance.

    I’ve read postmodernist “thinkers” and I’ve read Peterson. There’s no equivalence at all. Peterson makes no claims to originality anent most of the ideas he treats with, he simply connects those ideas to matters of relatively recent scientific discovery that turn out to be relevant to various matters of ancient wisdom. The postmodernists, in contrast, deploy intentionally impenetrable clouds of prolix and jargon-laden prose like cephalopod ink to disguise the fact that they have merely re-invented solipsism and draped it in neo-Marxist livery.

    Mr. Landry would seem to be the liar here as what Peterson had to say about C16 was absolutely true.

    Nor does the criticism that Peterson has misrepresented his connection to a First Nations tribe appear to hold any water. What is not in dispute, even among Peterson’s harshest detractors, is that he was made an honorary member of a family that is part of the Kwakwaka’ wakw tribe by being “blanketed” and given a name. An article by Robert Jago examining this whole controversy attempts to draw lines between membership in a family, a tribe and a nation of North American indigenes. The argument lacks coherence. If someone is adopted into a family, it automatically accedes to membership in the nation in which that family are citizens. Similarly, if a replacement soldier is assigned to 3rd Squad, 2nd Platoon, Company E, 1st Battalion of some Army division he doesn’t belong only to his squad and not the higher-level hierarchical entities that subsume it.

    Jago, and the rest of Peterson’s detractors, seek to minimize and trivialize Peterson’s First Nations connection because, as they put it, they are annoyed that he “uses this connection as a shield against charges of racism.” On the left, baseless accusations of racism are perhaps the most common slander deployed in attempts to delegitimize critics of their noxious political philosophy. It irks them no end when such a target can easily point to something concrete that makes the charge obviously a lie – Sen. Mitch McConnell’s asian wife comes to mind. In the case of Peterson, that happens to be his ritual adoption into a First Nations family for whom he did some apparently quite significant good turn many years before he became famous and a lightning rod for left-wing calumnies. This whole whine about Peterson is, in essence, a consequence of the usual leftist “witches” having found that their most-favored spells and incantations haven’t served to make him disappear.

    The accusation that Peterson self-publishes because he can’t get anything into peer-reviewed journals is also trivially demonstrable to be a lie. Peterson’s website lists 131 academic papers and the journals they were published in. The most recent citation is from July 2019. Even his popular book 12 Rules for Life was not self-published, it was published by Random House Canada. For what it’s worth, I wish Prof. Peterson had self-published 12 Rules. If he had, he would have received far more of the proceeds from sales.

    Commenter Topu obviously doesn’t know any religious conservatives if he thinks Prof. Peterson is regarded as on a par with Jesus.

    Psychological projection seems to be an endemic failing of the Left. The Right, having an unsentimental view of human nature, isn’t much inclined toward cults of personality. The Left, on the other hand, seems continually besotted by its seemingly endless procession of faux-Messiahs. The abject idolatry in a lot of the stuff written about Obama early-on, for instance, still makes one cringe even all these years later.

    Commenter NeoRipShaft is pretty much a simon-pure example of just this sort of left-wing psychological projection. It is left-wing academics who are the new sophists. Prof. Peterson, far from denying reality, is insistent that it always be acknowledged no matter how inconvenient that proves to be for the popular left-wing delusions of the day. It is the fabulists and idealogues of the Left who have recurrent problems with reality.

    Laura Carson – whomever she may be – offers no specifics applicable to Prof. Peterson but inadvertently provides a checklist of failings endemic to prominent persons on the Left. Contradictions, vague answers and walk-backs, for example, are all things we’ve seen repeatedly from such present-day leftist darlings as Alexandria “the world is going to end in 12 years” Ocasio-Cortez and pretty much any of the 2020 Democratic presidential hopefuls. More projection.

    Robert Moffat – whomever he may be – is entitled to an opinion, but not to having it be taken seriously by anyone with sense. Spurious claims of originality – by people who haven’t had a really new idea since Marx – are common currency on the Left, but not on the Right. Prof. Peterson makes no particular claims to originality. He, in fact, explicitly states that his is mainly a reasoned and academically scrupulous defense of ancient wisdom that is the opposite of the stupid neo-Marxian novelties so beloved of the pseudo-intellectual Left.

    I’m sorry ZimmerBob has put you outside the wire for a week as this post of mine will now appear, at least for awhile, to be a pummeling applied to a man with his hands tied behind him. That was certainly not my intent, but nonsense and lies always beg to be called out as such regardless of other circumstances. I will check back in due course to see if you have any response to this post.

  • Dick Eagleson: Twas not my goal to prevent Questioner from responding. He did it to himself. The rules are very clear. He can respond in a week.

    At the same time, you pretty much said it all. My answer to him would have been that he was simply relying on authority by quoting lots of people, without really caring how legitimate their opinions were.

  • wayne

    Well presented!

    Obama Kids
    “Sing for Change”
    (Pyongyang Remix)
    Reason Foundation Oct 1, 2008

  • mkent

    Lee S.: “A much more socialist environment exists elsewhere beyond the borders of the the all mighty USA.. and we are doing quite all right”

    Lee: Why should we settle for doing “all right” when we, under our freer system, are doing so much better than that?
    You, and so many other socialists (including socialists in this country, e.g. Bernie followers), insist that giving up economic liberty under socialism yields a more prosperous nation. (I’d disagree. I’d put prosperity behind peace and peace behind liberty in my hierarchy of needs.) But it doesn’t.
    The numbers show the “capitalist” USA far exceeds the large diversified “socialist” countries of even Europe in terms of standard of living. It’s not even close.
    Here are the numbers (GDP per capita in PPP):
    USA: $59,800
    EU: $40,800
    UK: $44,300
    Sweden: $51,200

    The standard of living in the USA exceeds that in the EU by almost 47%. It exceeds that in your precious Sweden by 17%.
    Let that sink in. Even the example that the socialists use for their socialist “utopia” has a standard of living substantially below the USA. I’ve read that if Sweden were a U. S. state, its standard of living would be ranked in the mid 40’s of the 50 states. I can think of no reason to give up my liberty to get less prosperity.
    (Note: These figures are from mid-2017, before the Trump economy had a chance to take off. The figures would be even more lopsided now.)

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote: “If you actually read my post you may have noticed how I respect and actively promote democracy and the rule of law.

    I read it two or three times in order to make sure I was not accusing you of anything that you didn’t say. Apparently comparing these protesters to your children at three years of age took the conversation too close to home.

    It is nice, however, that European leftists (those who favor more centralized control over individual control) think so differently. For instance when there is a Brexit vote, the leftists follow the will of the people.

    Oh, wait. They did everything to delay and overrule the democratically chosen will of the people, right down to trying to have yet another vote so that the people could finally vote the “right” way. This is the opposite of how a democracy is supposed to work.

    I guess that it isn’t just the American leftists who give only lip service to the promotion and respect of democracy.

    Maybe it is as Ian C. said, that modern leftists have given classical leftists a bad name, but it seems to me that this “modern” behavior dates back to the 1960s when leftists learned a wrong lesson from the right wing protests by Martin Luther King (a Republican) insisting upon civil rights for all. The left then used similar (but more violent) tactics demanding that they get their own way on non-equality non-civil rights issues — sometimes intentionally mischaracterizing an issue as civil rights in order to get more attention. Childish, three-year-old behavior. Amazingly, leftists also insist that they are the adults in the room, but only to rationalize the rightness of their bratty, childish, self-serving positions.

    But I suppose you will take these comments as personal attacks on you, too.

    I AM a socialist, but that is disturbingly close sounding to “national socialist”, and that is much closer to the protesters we are discussing. Left I certainly am, Nazi I most certainly am not.

    Finally a socialist who admits that the NAZI Party (Nationalist Socialist German Worker’s Party) was/is both left and socialist rather than the usual insistence that it was/is right wing and libertarian.

    [Ian C.’s] comment that “the left” is politically dead makes no sense on the world stage

    I think you misunderstood Ian C.’s comment. He was not suggesting that the left is politically dead, just that it has changed from what it was, long ago. It is clearly alive and well and willing to block roadways and do other things in order to get its undemocratically unvoted way, even when the government has approved the other way, such as construction of an approved telescope in an approved location.

    Half a century ago, the left in America took a radical turn when Massachusetts Democrats reelected Ted Kennedy and the rest of the country’s Democrats accepted him and celebrated him, even after he killed a woman by saving his own political life rather than seeking help to save her actual life.

    Oh, how the world changes when we stop being governed by laws and start being governed by men — favoring friends and punishing enemies, destroying the equal application of the law. No one is above the law? Not anymore! This is how we get a swamp that lawlessly protects its own at the expense of fairness and equality under the law. The result is people like Hillary Clinton and James Comey, who get away with criminal acts because they are people favored by the left. The result is punishing the left’s enemies, such as General Micheal Flynn being charged with things that the interviewing officers said he didn’t do, and attorney Michael Cohen getting his home raided just so the FBI can go on a fishing expedition as well as punish him by outing his client list. The result is corruption of the FISA court by an FBI that knowingly gives false information in order to obtain warrants that cannot be had by truthful means.

    In fact, we Americans (and maybe Europeans) live in a state that with each passing year looks more and more like the communist Soviet Union, where the once-innocent are falsely accused of legal, social, and political crimes that they did not commit.

    I think that Ian C. is saying that the pool of innocent people is shrinking with each passing year, as the leftists declare more and more groups as being oppressors, even those who were given, at one time, victim-class status. I think that he means that no one is now safe from modern leftist accusation, at least here in America, and probably even in Europe.

    ‘I accuse you of trying to build a telescope on a sacred mountain — even though there are plenty of other telescopes legally and ethically already there.’


  • wayne

    “Jordan Peterson vs Peter Jordanson”
    September 2018
    {Parody Alert}

  • Ian C.


    I’m shocked and outraged by your hateful posting. Your eurocentric and hegemonic views are wrong and hurtful. How can you be proud of Europe’s long history and culture, which is just a collection of colonialism, racism, oppression, and mass murder? I want you to know that I’m a suicidal, barely passing transwoman (call me Ianna) who experiences social exclusion and economic distress on a daily basis and I’m immensely triggered by your intolerant eurocentric arrogance. Belonging to a marginalized, oppressed minority myself, I feel the pain other members of marginalized groups must suffer when you talk to them in the same way you speak to Americans, like oppressed Hawaiian natives or Somalian refugees who barely made it over the Mediterranean Sea.
    It’s people like you who call themselves socialist and think that excuses their ignorant and dangerous behavior. You are the problem.
    I demand that you apologize and that you’re permanently banned from all social media and deplatformed from any public speaking. I further demand that you’re deported from tolerant, progressive Sweden back to the Brexit-fascist UK, where you can indulge yourself in your glorious imperialist past.

    (Now who’s laughing, smug European.)

  • Lee: Just in case you don’t get it, Ian is being very sardonic.

  • Lee S

    I get it Bob ;-)

  • Lee S

    Thank you all for your comments…. The only points I have left to make are it’s no surprise the average GDP is higher in the US than Sweden… You have WAY more billioneirs over there than here…. You also have WAY more poverty. And the figures regarding the UK are no suprise, they are suffering from 10+ years of right wing government.
    You can rant and rave all you like about how much better the US is to anywhere slightly more socialist, but I’ve visited the states, ( I know I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s worth repeating..), I’ve spent time in rural America, ( I’ve never been to a “tourist” destination in the US), I have traveled to, lived in, and visited many different countries… And can’t think of anywhere I would rather live than right where I am
    (The weather could be better… But you can’t have everything!)

  • Back to Hawai’i . . .

    Lived in Wiakiki for a year working on a company contract. Read a couple of Hawai’ian histories the first week (recommend Shoal of Time by Gavin Daws), so I think I have a broad understanding of Island history.

    King Kamehameha is a personal hero, not so much for unifying the Islands (except Kauai!), but for the way he handled the European invasion. Rather than resist a superior force, he integrated it into his culture.

    Practicing ‘keep your enemies closer’, he gave Europeans high positions in government. Nearly every other culture encountered by Europeans resisted, and was defeated and forcibly assimilated. Kamehameha assimilated the Europeans, and a large reason the state culture of Hawai’i is different than, say, Oklahoma (also with a large indigenous population). It was cultural judo.

    The current crop of Polynesians dishonors Kamehameha’s commitment to workable solutions that preserve the culture.

    Personal note: Hawai’i is the most racist place I’ve been. Maybe not apparent in the tourist areas, but living and working there, it was at times quite open.

    Fun anecdote: It seemed there was a protest weekly in the summer. One protester had a F*** White People sign. A Letter to the Editor the next day pointed out that there is no ‘F’ in the Hawai’ian language.

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote: “And can’t think of anywhere I would rather live than right where I am

    It’s fine for you to like where you are. However, visiting only rural America misses out on some of the more pleasant lifestyles. Rural America tends to be far from the symphony halls and major sports stadiums as well as the larger hospitals and major job centers.

    On the other hand, those who live in rural America like living right where they are, too. Otherwise they would move.

    As for American poverty, well, eight years of Obama really messed us up, adding tens of millions to various welfare rolls. Over the past half century or so, leftist Democratic policies also led to impoverishment of American families, so I wouldn’t brag so hard about leftist policies versus right wing policies. The policy of distributing welfare encourages staying poor, because once a family or person starts to earn enough then he stops getting the free stuff from the leftist government policies. You can see that it is difficult to counteract the damage done by socialists, leftists, and Democrats.

    Well, you can’t, but everyone else can.

    We have seen the results of leftist policies in Detroit (the left’s model city from 1960, when the left took it over from the right), San Francisco (there are maps of where shoes are still safe to walk on the sidewalks), Chicago (where every Monday morning the weekend shootings are presented like box scores), and many other non-rural places.

    You seem to think of America as being homogeneous, but it is not. There are undoubtedly places in America where you would also like living. Just not Baltimore, Oakland, or Cleveland.

    You may find Hawaii nice. It is expensive there, too, so you may feel right at home.

  • wayne

    A minor but important quibble— the United States is a Representative-Republic, not a democracy, although we employ democratic principles.

    on the chance you haven’t encountered this Peterson gem–

    Jordan Peterson / Akira the Don
    “42 Rules For Life”
    [ Vocals recorded especially for this song by the good Doctor ]
    March 2019

    (So the answer really was 42 all along…)

  • wayne

    A repeat from me and just for fun, some psychedelic-country music:

    Sturgill Simpson –
    “Turtles All The Way Down”

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote:
    How on earth are a few protesters holding up such an important science project?

    Because the leftist Hawaiian government is going against the decisions of courts and the agencies that approve projects such as this.

    I’m sure throwing a few dollars at the Ney sayers will both give them what they are really after and allow the telescope to bie built… Is that not how it works over there also?

    Also? Does your use of the word “also” mean that it works like that in your part of the world? Because what you describe sounds more like corruption or extortion than anything else. It certainly is not how democracy works over here, and I don’t think that is how democracy is supposed to work.

    Advocating throwing a few dollars at the protesters does not sound like you “respect and actively promote democracy and the rule of law.” It sounds like you would cave in to corruption or extortion.

    this happened regarding a nuclear waste storage facility up in the Norland granite a few years back… It was democratically voted down

    But if it were democratically voted up, wouldn’t there have been protests? It is easy to say that there were no protests when something the left doesn’t want is voted down, but what about when it is voted to go forward?

    Actually, I’m just trying to wind you up…

    It is kind of funny that you complain when we argue against your point of view, yet you go ahead an try to wind us up. It gets hard to tell when you are being serious, “3 quarters serious,” or just trolling. Either way I think we expect you to complain any time that we don’t agree with you.

    Calling something ‘sacred’ is 75% likely to be a call for cash…

    Well, if that is how it works over there, then why are any religious discussions treated seriously? If religions are abused for purposes of extortion or politics, then something is wrong in Europe. No wonder the religious groups clamored to come to America.

    I can’t fault the indigenous folk for wanting recompense for stuff built on their land…

    Except, it is not their land. They may pretend it is, but it is not.

    But you really need to either find a new term to describe the disturbingly fascist movement which has emerged over the last few years, or find a new term to describe my political/social views… I have been ‘left’ for much longer than these idiots have been around…

    First, the protesters are called leftists because they are leftists. No logic involved, so you are not centrist. Second, fascists are leftists, so no new term is needed. Third, you call yourself a leftist and in this comment declare long association with leftism, so no new term is needed. You may be embarrassed that some of your fellow leftists are snowflakes or idiots, but it is a fact that we all have to live with.

    we still have idiots, as do every group

    Which is why you need to learn to live with the fact that some of your fellow leftists are snowflakes and idiots. Even if we were to choose for you a new term do describe your “political/social views” it would still contain idiots and snowflakes, and then you would ask us to separate you from them, too.

    Many of the right wing governments here in Europe would be classed as so left wing as to be almost Communist over there…

    Which explains why those in the U.K. “are suffering from 10+ years of right wing government.” You just declared that the U.K. government is not really right wing, just farther to the right than you are. Being a leftist government would explain why the U.K. government dragged its feet on Brexit, democratically chosen by a national vote of the people. Which is different than your claim that “Yes my left wing society annoys you, and yes, we tend to accept and obey the democratically elected govenmental decisions…” The U.K. has democratically elected a more right wing government and expects it to abide by the democratically chosen Brexit. As you said in your first comment of this thread: “I was under the impression that is how democracy works.” Maybe this new U.K. government will “respect and actively promote democracy and the rule of law.

    Lord knows that the leftist Hawaiian government does not.

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