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Real pushback: Soldiers punished by Biden for refusing jab now sue for billions

Fighting the left's playbook
Fighting the left’s playbook

Bring a gun to a knife fight: The many military soldiers punished by Biden for refusing the Covid jab have now filed a class action lawsuit for what they expect to be worth billions.

Former troops are suing the U.S. government for lost pay and benefits due to the Biden administration’s military vaccine mandate, one of the lawyers who successfully brought down the Anthrax vaccine told Breitbart News.

Attorney Dale Saran, a retired Marine, and fellow attorneys Andy Meyer and Brandon Johnson are representing the former troops in three separate lawsuits they plan to turn into a class action lawsuit on behalf of all service members who were either kicked out or illegally ordered to stop drilling, resulting in loss of pay or benefits. Saran said the amount is in the “billions.”

“It’s worth billions. That’s just flat-out. That’s what it is in backpay. It’s billions of dollars,” he said.

Though only about 8,000 active-duty troops were kicked out of the military due to the Biden jab mandate, the lawyers estimate another 80,000 to 100,000 soldiers are due compensation for lost benefits because they were made inactive or forbidden from participating in drill activities.

The lawsuit has been filed in U.S. Court of Federal Claims, a specialized court where illegal military discharges are heard. Lawyer Saran won a similar suit in that court over the military’s anthrax mandates back in the late nineties. The case now is likely stronger because, as he notes,

They were basically [without] the benefit of any due process. No boards were held. They didn’t hold any administrative separation boards; they didn’t hold any hearings. They didn’t do any federal recognition boards; none of the administrative or judicial procedures were used. They just flat-out did it.

This willful refusal to follow the law has been typical behavior by the left since the start of the Wuhan panic. The law no longer applies to them. They want to do something, they do it, even if it is illegal and hurts someone else. Shutter businesses illegally, silence opponents illegally, favor some races illegally, fire soldiers illegaly, mandate jabs and masks illegally, demand health records illegally: All okay because the good people are doing it! How dare you question their righteousness?

The worst aspect of these violations of law has been the meek willingness of everyone to go along with them. Most shameful.

Army begs soldiers kicked out over jab to return
Click for original image.

The timing of this suit is excellent. At this same moment the U.S. Army is literally begging soldiers who were kicked out to come back, as shown by the letter to the right. The Army not only wants them back, it is offering to clear from each individual’s Army record the reprimands issued and their involuntary discharge for refusing the jab (records that would impact future promotions). That offer suggests the Army recognizes it committed a wrongful action by punishing these soldiers, which is excellent evidence that can be used in the class action suit.

This desire by the Army to take back these fired soldiers also reflects the military’s desperate struggle to meet recruiting goals. The Army has missed its goals by 25% this year, the Marines by 40%, and the Air Force and Navy by 90%. Apparently, punishing soldiers for refusing an experimental drug that has since been shown to have serious adverse health effects and is generally ineffective in stopping any Covid strain is causing young men and women to reconsider entering the military. That the military under Biden is also focused on pushing the queer agenda on its soldiers is further impacting recruiting. Young men don’t join the military to pal around with transvestites and cross-dressers.

Now some of those fired soldiers are fighting. Sadly their enemy isn’t a nation trying to destroy American freedom, but their own government and its effort to oppress Americans. Even if many return to the military with cleared records, the unity and brotherhood necessary for successful military actions has been permanently broken. As noted at the second link above,

[T]hey will always remember the unfairness, the trauma, and the helplessness they felt as their commanders dismissed them for not taking experimental and non-working COVID vaccines.

Trust has been lost, and to recover it will take years.

A big victory in this lawsuit will help the healing process, but it cannot remove the damage completely.

Genesis cover

On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.

 
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.


The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
 

"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News

43 comments

  • roger

    The Binary is between those who uphold law, order and stability. These attributes feed strong families, strong marriages, clean streets, low energy costs, worthwhile education and comfortable retirements.

    And those who spread chaos, entitlement, ubiquitous charges of racism, and widespread lawlessness (see Saul Alinsky and Bill Ayers) saddle the populous with burdens which do not naturally belong to gainfully operational society. These should be recognized as the enemies to safety and security that they are.

    That some are “liberal” or ‘conservative” (whatever those words mean) is incidental.

  • Grundoon

    An order to get a vaccination is a lawful order. Any service member who has ever been stationed overseas has had to submit to multiple vaccinations as part of his deployment. The COVID jab is no different, IMHO.

  • Grundoon: You might want to read up on numerous laws that specifically forbid the forced administration of experimental and untested drugs on anyone, beginning with the Nuremberg Code.

    The Covid jab was utterly different than the well-tested and effective vaccines given for international travel. It hadn’t been tested, we didn’t know its potentional adverse effects (which are now well documented, especially in young healthy men), and it was experimental. It was fundamentally illegal and immoral for the Demcratic Biden administration to mandate it.

  • Let me add that if you wish to bend over and submit to fools and dictators, that’s your choice. I prefer to stand tall, defy tyrants, and support those who do the same.

  • Cotour

    “The COVID jab is no different, IMHO.”

    If this were a properly tested vaccine I would generally fully agree with you. (When you sign those papers the government essentially owns you. BUT.)

    BUT it was not, it was by all estimations and the information available an experimental “new” technology “Vaccine”. A “Vaccine” that the actual definition of Vaccine was adjusted to accommodate! And THAT was the tell and the dividing line between the two.

    Remember: Trust NOTHING that comes out of either the government OR a politician’s mouth from either side of the aisle. Trust ONLY what they do.

    And what they DID during the Covid “vaccination” event was conduct the largest human biological experiment without anyone being properly and fully informed as to the potential risks. Nuremburg level violations IMO.

  • Col Beausabre

    1) Why would anyone want to return given the way they were treated?

    2) “soldiers don’t want to take showers with men who like taking showers with soldiers”

    3) My first platoon sergeant in the Army was a similar case. He had been a Staff Sergeant (E6) when he volunteered for Officer Candidate School. After graduation, he served two combat (he wore the Combat Infantryman’s Badge) tours in Vietnam. and was promoted to the rank of Captain (O3). Then, post-Vietnam, the Army decided it had too many captains and majors (O4). So a Reduction In Force was declared. Among those caught up in it were all officers of the rank of major and below without a college degree. He was one of those people, he’d been too busy fighting a war to go back to college, He was given a choice, resign his commission and lose all retirement benefits (you need 20 years service to qualify, he had 17). Or he could accept a demotion to Sergeant First Class (E7), while retaining a reserve commission as a captain, serve out the remaining 3 years and retire with a captain’s benefits. The choice was pretty stark, so he swallowed his pride and agreed to it. So, he an experienced officer and combat veteran, was taking orders from a fresh out of college Second Lieutenant (O1). He was a darn good soldier – he never publicly displayed the bitterness I would have felt – and I learned a lot from him. Whenever I proposed a questionable order – 2LT’s do a lot of that – he’d grin at me and say, “Just remember, sir, if war breaks out tomorrow, you’ll be saluting me and calling me sir”.

  • Grundoon

    Pissed you’all off, didn’t I. You all sound like a bunch of barracks lawyers, saying that privates, pfcs and spec4s can substitute their judgments (about the adequacy of testing) for the judgments of their lawful superiors. Spend a little time considering the consequences of that.

  • David M. Cook

    Grundoon: Ever heard of the Charge of the Light Brigade? Should those men have charged? Now it‘s the 21st Century. Every soldier has a phone. Those phones access the Internet. Soldiers can see that this MRNA-based shot is no “vaccine”, and they also see the lack of effectiveness at prevention of disease as well. They are choosing not to charge!

  • Grundoon

    Mr. Zimmerman: Bending over and submitting to fools and dictators is not a service members choice, it is his duty. Subordination to the chain of command is not optional, even to proven fools like Biden and his minions. And as you stand tall, be prepared for an Article 15 if you’re lucky or an Article 92 charge in a general court if you’re not.

    Objections to the mRNA “vaccine” are totally beside the point, in my view. It’s the duty to follow orders that is the crux of the thing. So bring in the lawyers. Let’s litigate. They didn’t follow proper procedures. “It’s worth billions.” What could go wrong?

  • Larry

    @Grundoon, You appear not to know that not all orders are created equally. There are limits to what you can be ordered to do, and some orders are illegal and a soldier is bound by duty, honor, and law to disobey them. An experimental “vaccine” that doesn’t even prevent you from catching Covid19 nor keep you from spreading it (so what good is it?), that has known serious side-effects for some in a healthy population of young people who are already at very minimal risk from the disease? They suffered the consequences, took their lumps, and you say they now have no recourse for refusing to be used as human guinea pigs? How about those who took the jab and came down with myocarditis? I’m sure fighting with the VA for years will make it all better for them.

  • Truthmaster

    Grundoon you are wasting your time. I have intermittently stuck my head in here since stumbling across the site some years ago during the height of COVID. I tried debating things with them, presenting evidence and resources, etc. Unless you quote a resource that they ‘trust’ (i.e. OAN, Fox News, Tucker Carlson, etc.) then your arguments will simple be dismissed as liberal jibberish and ignored. They do not long tolerate anyone who expresses opinions counter to their established worldview.

  • GeorgeC

    I read the online versions of the applications to the FDA and saw how there was no testing of effect on blocking transmission, only on reduction of severe symptoms. So I decided to get the J&J to also avoid new mRNA technology.

    Got it. Felt like it was not the firsr time my body had been exposed to that nasty spike protein. Was shocked at the problems that shut down the Baltimore plant which never got to market.

    Anyway, before it got pulled it was a conventional viral agent alternative. No mRNA and no nano delivery junk.

  • Cotour

    “Truthmaster”

    Stuck your head in, and got it chopped off?

    What did you say?

  • Truthmaster

    GeorgeC-
    At the risk of my sanity for further engaging here I feel the need to point out that your comment really only serves to confirm my previous one. The J&J COVID vaccine was a DNA viral-vector vaccine. Prior to 2021 there were no other vaccines of that type ever approved for human use in the US. That vaccine was absolutely NOT a ‘conventional viral agent alternative’. But since ‘mRnA BaD’ I suppose that doesn’t matter.
    There have been some veterinary vaccines produced with this technology, and some human vaccines outside the US. Research into using DNA for human vaccines had been ongoing for several years prior to COVID, but so has research into using mRNA. The pandemic just accelerated both of these efforts. The idea that the J&J vaccine was based on well-tested and conventional vaccine technology is simply woefully incorrect.

  • Truthmaster: 1) I am curious why you feel a need to begin every comment by insulting everyone else who comments here. Seems puzzling, as it essentially means you are leading with your chin. Your comment in this case is reasonable, and in fact is a good evidence in favor of the lawsuit against the military.

    2) This insulting manner also does not reflect well on your organization, Media Matters, which you apparently must work for in the press department, based on your email address. A good press agent doesn’t insult potential customers, unless your goal for coming here is to try to figure out some way to slander me and my readers. Since I don’t take advertising, you can’t manipulate the feeds to make it seem I am promoting bad things, when I am not, as you did on X (for which your organization now faces a very hefty defamination lawsuit).

    Note too that if you think you can come here under a different name and say evil things, and then accuse me of supporting such things, be warned that I am watching and will take counter actions.

    3) You are still free to comment, as long as you act like a civil adult.

  • Ah, I just did a check and discovered that you previously posted under the nickname Bernard, under a slightly different IP address. (Apparently you posted comments using two IPs, and I hadn’t realized it.) Bernard was banned because of his insulting manner.

    Now I have more information about you. Either you are faking your association with Media Matters, or you have simply confirmed the ugly nature of the people who work there.

    Either way, I think I’ll let you continue to comment, for the moment. I am curious how long it will take for you to break the rules and start insulting people directly. :)

  • Truthmaster

    I was previously banned for expressing opinions counter to the prevailing narrative on this site and then attempting to defend myself against the subsequent personal attacks. I do check in from time to time as it is helpful to see what the fringes of the political spectrum are thinking and talking about. Your site is just one of my sources for the far right fringe and conspiratorial thinking. I just simply made a decision some time ago to stop trying to engage as it never resulted in a constructive conversation. Don’t know why I broke that self-imposed rule today. Don’t worry – I won’t break that rule again as it was clearly a mistake on my part.
    And of course I do not work for Media Matters. Nobody at that organization would bother spending any time here. If I recall correctly I think one of your users thought that I was Bernie Sanders given my previous handle. That is only slightly more absurd than thinking someone from the press department at Media Matters would engage in the comments here.
    Don’t know if you will post this or block it. Don’t really care at this point. Maybe a good time to stop my intermittent visits here. I wish you and your readers the best and hope that some day you can see past your narrow worldview.

  • Cotour

    Q: What exactly is the BROAD world view? What does that look like?

    As I pointed out to Lee S: Each word chosen and each sentence those chosen words structure is like an MRI into the mind. No way around it, it is like standing naked in the street.

    Some interesting MRI’s floating around the internet, many without a string attached to an anchor.

  • tolkein

    I’ve had all my Covid jabs (I’m 69). I think the vaccine manufacturers worked miracles in delivering the jabs within a year. But right from the start it was clear there were trade offs particularly the younger you were. The adverse side effects were on average worse than the life saving benefits. That’s why the (UK) JVIC recommended against women 30 and younger getting the AZ jab. Also, it’s not like yellow fever jabs (I’ve had those) or smallpox or polio, when getting the jab means you won’t get polio or smallpox, etc. The best they claimed, and the manufacturers were honest, even if `Govt wasn’t, was that it reduced transmission and reduced adverse effects of getting Covid (I’d just be ill, not hospitalised). For all these reasons I can’t see how the Govt can defend its position. It isn’t supported by the science!

  • glissmeister

    I wonder.

    Can a US Military officer order a subordinate to violate The Geneva Convention?

    If not, it seems unlikely they could issue orders to a subordinate in a manner that violates the Nuremberg Code and have those orders be lawful..

  • hh465

    The military has been ordering soldiers to do risky unproven things for millennia, and in the US since it’s founding. Consider the “unproven” practice of scarification for smallpox. In 1777, Washington mandated that troops be inoculated for smallpox. He wrote:
    “Finding the smallpox to be spreading much and fearing that no precaution can prevent it from running thro’ the whole of our Army, I have determined that the Troops shall be inoculated. This Expedient may be attended with some inconveniences and some disadvantages, but yet I trust, in its consequences will have the most happy effects. Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army, in the natural way, and rage with its usual Virulence, we should have more to dread from it, than from the sword of the enemy…” Our military has been forcing unproven vaccinations on soldiers since before there was a country.

    I was in a biological warfare-related unit in the Army in the 1990s. I was vaccinated with all sorts of things. I did not have a choice. Was it a risk? Of course. Being in the military means taking risks for the country.

    And you have to take those risks even if the risks are avoidable and even if the orders are poorly conceived. You can’t refuse orders because you disagree with the reasoning behind them. The order to take the vaccine was not unethical in the sense of forcing someone to break military law or perform a crime against humanity.

    And, yes, the Light Brigade was obligated to charge. Just as Pickett’s division was obligated to march on Cemetery Ridge. Just as the Seventh Cavalry was obligated to follow Custer into the Little Big Horn without appropriate support. Just as Task Force Smith was obligated to sacrifice themselves as a speed bump to slow the North Koreans. Or Operation Eagle Claw. And on and on. Soldiers don’t get to chose whether or not to obey orders based on whether or not they agree with the tactics or strategy of the war, even if their commanders make bad decisions.

  • LibraryGryffon

    One thing to remember was that smallpox was far more devastating, even for your average healthy young to middle-aged man, than the WuFlu ever was.

  • When the existential line is sooo close that to cross it would mean absolute defeat and destruction where just about ANYTHING that is rationally determined to be effective in countering it can be justified.

    ” we should have more to dread from it, than from the sword of the enemy…” Washington rationally determined that the existential line was near and made a key decision. IMO? A wise man.

    Was Covid anywhere near closing in on that existential line that must not be crossed?

    Not from what I could gather.

    (The death rate from Covid? Understood pretty early on aprox. 1%? The death rate from smallpox in the 18th century? 20 to 60%?)

    And the government and corporate media in order to ensure obedience most definitely through evidence purposefully pumped into the public space mis and dis information. An offence of the highest order, but then again government and all radical Leftists play by S.O.M. rules and can justify ANYTHING that serves their purposes.

    Remember: Those in the Pedestrian Realm observe politics as a competition. And those politically empowered in the Political Realm, especially those in the radical Left, are at war and play by rules of warfare. And we all understand the rules that apply in warfare. (There are none)

    And governments strategy / goals IMO was clearly to 1. Affect the election. And 2. To test the obedience of the public when told what they must have injected into their bodies, young and old included.

    #1 Accomplished. #2 The truth revealed over time has now IMO ensured that the government and information that emanates from it will be at the minimum strongly be questioned and scrutinized. And at the max rejected right off the bat.

  • David P

    Those on the defense of the jab are totally off base. Kari Mullis, inventor of the PCR test, admitted publicly that this test was not designed for detecting covid (basic deaths by Covid were about the equivalent of 2 flu seasons. That’s it. They inflated the numbers, lied to the populace and violated the Nuremberg Code.
    Bill Gates, lover of depopulation endorsed vaccines. Why? He wants less people, not more.
    The WuFlu was a reach for control, and potential danger by administration of untested vaccines.
    I would tell Uncle Samantha to go pound sand.

  • Normie shepherd

    George Washington maybe made the right call at the time but also wasn’t yet operating under the Nuremberg Code. Crux of the issue.

    And we haven’t even began discussing the fact that the Emergency Use Authorization is predicated upon there being NO possible alternative treatment. Given what we know about the efficacy or lack thereof I think it’s safe to say they didn’t have a leg to stand on when propagandizing the public about combination therapy algorithms with cheap, known-safe repurposed medicines.

    Makes you wonder what the point of the whole thing was? Why did certain medicines become hyper partisan and taboo? Mass media? Who sponsored that? “Brought to you by: Pfizer.”

  • Gospace

    An order to get a vaccination is a lawful order. Any service member who has ever been stationed overseas has had to submit to multiple vaccinations as part of his deployment. The COVID jab is no different, IMHO.

    An order to get a vaccination CAN be a lawful order, but also may not be.

    Same with all orders.

    If you refuse an order, the burden is on you to prove the order unlawful Seems it’s going to be easy to prove in this case. As can be seen- the entire process ignored all rules and regulation that must be followed to kick people out. Also evidence that the order was not legal- else with the widespread refusal mutiny charges would have been warranted.

  • Grundoon

    hh465: Thank you for bringing up Washington’s cowpox innoculation of his troops. I think it is relevant here; an early example of a medical force protection order. Of similar interest is the outbreak on Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71, a nuclear armed Nimitz class aircraft carrier with 4800 crew, in March of 2020. The captain was seeing his command melt in front of his eyes. While no vaccine was available then, had one existed, experimental or not, he (the captain) would have been fully justified in ordering all on board to take the jab. He would have been derelict to not do so.

    Mr Zimmerman; my understanding of the Nurmburg rules is that they were a legal response to the Mengele types in prison camps and the like in WWII.

    Telling troops that lawful orders may be ignored for is incredibly dangerous. It needlessly complicates the already difficult jobs of the NCOs and junior officers who have to earn the trust of these kids and lead them. It is a technique the Bolsheviks (with German help) used in the trenches of Russian forces in WWI, and it worked. Biden and his LGBTQ generals have already crapped all over morale (according to my recently separated O3 newphew (Ordinance in Afghanistan)) and this additional … stuff … doesn’t help. My view is the refuseniks had to be separated from the services. To allow them to continue to serve would show that disobeying orders had no consequences.

  • Grundoon: Though there certainly is validity to your position, it is also quite clear under U.S. law that soldiers have the right to disobey an illegal order. The data provides strong evidence that the jab mandate was not only immoral, but illegal. The officers and political leaders had a responsibility to recognize this. They did not.

    Let me go to history to underline this legal fact about military orders. Soon after victory in World War II, General Eisenhower made a trip to Moscow to discuss how peace would be administered. During the return flight Eisenhower was able to spend many hours talking with Marshall Zhukov, who had commanded the Russian armies, discussing their campaigns during the war. This quote from Eisenhower is worth reading by every American:

    Highly illuminating to me was his description of the Russian method of attacking through mine fields. The German mine fields, covered by defensive fire, were tactical obstacles that caused us many casualties and delays. It was always a laborious business to break through them, even though our technicians invented every conceivable kind of mechanical appliance to destroy mines safely.

    Marshal Zhukov gave me a matter-of-fact statement of his practice, which was, roughly, “There are two kinds of mines; one is the personnel mine and the other is the vehicular mine. When we come to a mine field our infantry attacks exactly as if it were not there. The losses we get from personnel mines we consider only equal to those we would have gotten from machine guns and artillery if the Germans had chosen to defend that particular area with strong bodies of troops instead of with mine fields. The attacking infantry does not set off the vehicular mines, so after they have penetrated to the far side of the field they form a bridgehead, after which the engineers come up and digout channels through which our vehicles can go.”

    I had a vivid picture of what would happen to any American or British commander if he pursued such tactics, and I had an even more vivid picture of what the men in any one of our divisions would have had to say about the matter had we attempted to make such a practice a part of our tactical doctrine.

    Eisenhower knew that he had no right to issue such orders, and had he done so he would not be surprised if his underlings refused to obey, in “vivid” language. Nor would he have objected. Following orders blindly was what caused the German military to do things it knew were immoral and wrong. American soldiers were expected to disobey such orders.

    At that time American military and political leaders valued the American soldier’s independence and thinking ability. They shaped their orders with this in mind, instead of ignoring it.

    Biden did not. He violated these basic tenets that are part of America. He not only damaged the lives of many good soldiers unnecessarily, he damaged our military very badly.

  • pzatchok

    This whole thing reminds me of the Tuskegee solder experiments.
    The only real difference is that it was done on all solders instead of just black solders.

    In the end I think this was all really an experiment to see just how much control they could exert and who they could control.

    You should now know who in your circle of acquaintances are the real controllable. Those who could be frightened into doing anything the authorities tell them. Those who could and quite possibly would be willing to turn on their fellow citizens. All for the safety of the people.

  • Grundoon

    Mr Zimmerman; Ordinary Russians would describe their victory in the Great Fatherland War thus: “We drowned the Germans in Russian blood.” I was trained in the Russian language by veterans of the fighting in Stalingrad. I heard their first hand accounts.

  • Grundoon: I’m glad you have first hand knowledge of Russia’s brutal military methods (which have reappeared in the Ukraine by the way). I just don’t know what point you are trying to make. Are you saying the Eisenhower didn’t know what he was talking about? Based on my own conversations with numerous Russians in Moscow and the Ukraine, as well as my own reading as a historian, his assessment is right on the money.

  • Grundoon

    Mr Zimmerman; I was not trying to make any point, just to amplify your Eisenhower anectode. Calm down. I’ll go now.

  • Grundoon: No need to go. And note I am hardly upset. I just didn’t understand what you point was.

    That you underlined my point however undercuts yours. The soldiers suing over the jab mandate have a legitimate point.

  • Fen

    As an actual NCO in the Marine Corps Infantry, I would advise Grundoon and his ilk to stop presenting themselves as our champion and stop speaking on our behalf. As its obvious you have little regard for us other than as props for your Call Of Duty debate. Continued use may create side affects harmful to your health.

  • Edward

    One problem with disobeying an illegal order is that you will still get into trouble for doing so. Those who give illegal orders either do not realize that they are illegal or do not care. It then takes time to clear your good name for doing the right thing (assuming you get the opportunity), which is what is happening now to the soldiers who refused their illegal Wuhan flu orders.

    That is the takeaway I get from Robert’s post, and his inclusion of the Army’s letter supports that the Army knows it did wrong and is trying, poorly, to make up for it.
    _____________________
    Truthmaster,
    You wrote: “I was previously banned for expressing opinions counter to the prevailing narrative on this site and then attempting to defend myself against the subsequent personal attacks.

    Everyone who reads this site’s comments knows this is untrue. Your moniker is failing you.

    Don’t know why I broke that self-imposed rule today. Don’t worry – I won’t break that rule again as it was clearly a mistake on my part.

    Your problem is that you cannot tolerate anyone who does not agree with you, explaining your condescending tone. Even your moniker demands that we all believe you without question. If you are the master of truth, how could you possibly be wrong?

    Nobody at that organization would bother spending any time here.

    Typically, these kinds of comments are not productive to the conversation and are intended to insult those of us who read this site and those who comment here. If we do not take your “truth” as gospel, then what good are we?

    I just simply made a decision some time ago to stop trying to engage as it never resulted in a constructive conversation.

    Constructive conversation requires you to be constructive, too. You do not do this. I recommend that you continue to comment here and to spend that time learning how to converse constructively. For one, you need to accept that other ideas may have merit and to argue on those merits. If you cannot argue merits, then maybe your own ideas are wanting.

    Disagreement is not personal attack. I have even come across people who thought disagreement was hatred. One group of people once literally forbade me from having an opinion that differed from theirs. They thought that anyone who did not hold their opinion was dumb (their word). When I still wouldn’t agree, one of them got “so mad, you just don’t know.” When I still disagreed, I was forbidden to have my opinion. Literally forbidden. But, that is family for you.

    Presenting rational arguments is difficult and requires some amount of thought and confidence in your own position. If you merely parrot what others have said, you lack that confidence because you haven’t done any thought. It is far easier to try to shut up the other person than it is to defend a poorly reasoned position.

    If you stop your intermittent visits here, your attitude as-is will not be missed, but if you learn to converse constructively rather than abuse those who disagree with you, then we will miss you. Rather than show us where we are wrong, you attack and run away, as though you are using verbal gorilla tactics.

    Too many people have a difficult time defending their arguments. I suspect that it is like the poor engineer who does things a certain way because that is how they have always been done, rather than the engineer who understands why he does things that way. The second engineer can successfully make improvements or can defend why a change should not be made. (SpaceX is an excellent example of successfully breaking engineering practices that had been learned over the decades, allowing the company to do development work for much less cost and in much less time than the standard practices. They asked “why” and realized that they could get good results doing it another way. It even seems that flame deflectors may have been implemented as an easy solution to a problem, that smaller rockets may not need them as much as we had thought. So, we can be persuaded, but it takes real life examples, not some “because I said so” dogma.) The poor debater makes declarations because that is what he heard from his friends or colleagues but does not understand the reasoning behind the declaration — he cannot explain or defend his position.

    I have been in several discussions in which someone presents someone else’s opinion as though it were fact, as though saying, “see, that guy says the same thing I said, so I must be right.” It is amazing how many articles or editorials have been presented to me as though they were factual scientific papers.
    _______________
    Grundoon,
    Most of what you have written is very good and well thought out. If you “go now,” you will be missed greatly.

    However, you wrote: “Pissed you’all off, didn’t I.

    That just makes you seem like a troll and not serious about your comment, just throwing it into the conversation like a grenade and then looking back to see what damage you caused. Please try to avoid that impression in future conversations. It took reading several more of your comments to get a better understanding of your purpose here.

  • Grundoon

    “Continued use may create side affects harmful to your health.” Is that a threat, Mr. Pen?

  • Grundoon: 1) “Pissed you’all off, didn’t he.” :)
    2) Thank you for the donation. It very greatly appreciated.
    3) Please continue to comment, but try not to overreact so much. :)

  • Grundoon

    Mr Zimmerman:
    1. Yes.
    2. You’re welcome.
    3. Thanks for the lecture, but I think I’ll go now.

  • Grundoon: 3. I am sorry if you do.

  • Frank

    Robert, you got a minor problem with your numbers here, “The Army has missed its goals by 25% this year, the Marines by 40%, and the Air Force and Navy by 90%.”

    They are falling short, but back in Sept the Air Force was claiming they were at about the 90% mark of reaching their annual goal, and the Navy was reporting in at about 80% in meeting their goal at the beginning of Oct.

    Other than that, the rest is fine.

  • Frank: I took my numbers from this AP story, but did not realize that it was from October 2022.

    The more recent numbers suggest enrollment has improved, but I remain skeptical. First, I don’t trust any government numbers, especially when they claim positive results. They have been lying too routinely recently. Second, even these improved numbers suggest a shortfall.

  • Frank

    I see. That article is a bit confusing. Those percentages in your AP article aren’t the shortfalls, but rather the number of recruits already on contract or on delayed enlistment from last year that didn’t take effect until this year and thus counted towards meeting this years goal. So the Air Force and Navy didn’t end the year with a 90% shortfall, but rather started fy23 already at 10% towards their goal. They ended up 2023 at 90% and 80% respectively, which would equate to a 10% and 20% shortfall, not 90%. The Army met 85% of it’s goal, a 15% shortfall. The Marines and Space Force met their goals.

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