On the radio


Genesis cover

On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.

 
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit.

 
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
 

"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs." --San Antonio Express-News

This is a late addition. Coast to Coast with George Noory suddenly called me today and asked me to do the first two hours tonight. We are about to begin.

Readers!
 

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Thank you! The number of donations in July, and continuing now at the beginning of August, is too many for me to thank you all personally. Please forgive me by accepting my thank you here, in public, on the website.
 

If you did not donate or subscribe in July and still wish to, note that the tip jar remains available year round.


 

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108 comments

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Now Robert Zimmerman is not only promoting false Coronavirus conspiracy theories, he’s making eugenics arguments: “it’s only old people with underlying conditions.”

    Not only has Zimmerman shown himself to be an idiot, he’s shown himself to be totally evil. Robert, you’re pure scum.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Woodstock was in 1969, idiot.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    There are around 60 million Americans 65 and older and there are millions of more Americans with underlying health conditions. There is no mechanism whatsoever to assist these people in sheltering at home while everybody else ‘goes about there business.’

    I know simple minded libertarians like you, Robert, don’t care about practicalities like that, if you were really a scientist or engineer and not just a science journalist, you might have thought about that, but it seems you’ve made it clear you don’t actually care in the slightest about seniors. Your attitude is “let me do what I want, and everybody else can either take care of themselves or get out of the way.”

    You’re pure scum, Robert.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    The Black Live Matter protests started after states started re-opening. So, you’re also a liar.

    I have no idea what would have happened if the protests had started during the high point of the lockdown, but there were much smaller right wing protests of the lockdowns themselves that were allowed to proceed.

    The numbers themselves, contrary to Robert’s idiotic conspiracy claims, actually show an undercount of deaths:
    “The number of confirmed U.S. deaths due to the coronavirus is substantially lower than the true tally,” CNBC reports.

    “The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19… Most of the rest of the excess deaths, researchers said, were likely related to or directly caused by the coronavirus.”

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/01/official-us-coronavirus-death-toll-is-a-substantial-undercount-of-actual-tally-new-yale-study-finds.html

    This study went to the end of May, and attributed a 28% death total than the official count.

    If this virus goes unchecked, by the time herd immunity is truly achieved, if that’s even possible, there will most likely be between 800.000-1,200,000 deaths from the coronavirus.

    But, Robert, because he’s pure scum, would prefer to throw out trite and mawkish sayings, like “home of the brave.” Home of the stupid scum is a more accurate description of Robert.

  • Ah, a Canadian from the very liberal Vancouver area speaks, with the typical civility and reasonability of most liberals.

    You want to disagree, fine. The name-calling must stop, or I will ban you.

    As for Woodstock, I am speaking off the top of my head. I can make minor errors like. Give me a break. It doesn’t call for such expression of hate.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    This study went to the end of May, and attributed a 28% *higher* death total than the official count, that should say.

    I’d also like to add, if George Noory wasn’t also a liar in that he falsely claims to be all for *free speech* but has blocked me (or somebody else at Coast to Coast AM has done so, George is still ultimately responsible) from posting on the Coast to Coast AM facebook page, along it seems with quite a lot of others, I very likely wouldn’t be posting here.

    Based on the comment rules, I would expect to be either warned or banned outright for some of my comments here. I would simply point out that Robert’s comments were straight out advocacy of eugenics (survival of the fittest in order to advance the species.) I think referring to a eugenicist as ‘pure scum’ is actually very mild name-calling.

    I think I’ve also made it clear that I think Robert is an idiot and he’s not worth any more of my time. So, I couldn’t care less if I’m banned from posting on this rinky dink website.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Other than referring to you as pure scum Robert, everything else I said about you is true: you’re an idiot who promotes whacked out conspiracy theories to promote a simplistic libertarian point of view.

    I don’t think that truth telling is an insult. You can use all the trite lines you want about ‘liberal tolerance’ but the fact remains that you’re the scum arguing for eugenics, not me.

  • Max

    Wow! A one-man army of troll!

    One or two nasty comments would mark you, six posts in a row with nothing but hate speech marks you as advanced form of mental illness…

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Max, calling out a eugenicist is now ‘hate speech’? You have an odd view of ‘hate.’

  • HC

    Covid 19 He is right about many things he has said about the Data being Rigged. Yes Every body matter re-guard less if what color of skin they have.

  • Don

    Robert, nice to hear you tonight with George Noury. I worked in the space industry for 35 years at two of the major primes, did everything from high volume commercial satellites to Class A stuff for the government in various roles at the executive level.

    You were spot-on about SpaceX, I had the chance to work with them for launching of something we did for the government and their whole culture and approach was quite refreshing. Compare that to the whole SLS effort where their costs are 185M$ for an engine — geez!

  • Don

    Nice to hear you tonight on Coast To Coast. I worked in the space industry for 35 years for two of the large primes at the executive level and even had the chance to work closely with SpaceX — your comments about them were spot-on as well as the comparisons and illustrations of the NASA culture.

  • Max

    It’s amazing how much you can be judge, jury and executioner of someone that you do not know. Do not be in such a rush to make harsh accusations before you know more about them, Zimmerman will surprise you. Then you can comment with some accuracy and thoughtfulness. Civility isn’t necessary, but it’s always appreciated.

    I have a question that you might be able to answer Adam, recently men who are not black but played black cartoon characters for Simpsons and family Man? for many many years were forced out of their jobs. Was this necessary? Is it enough? Or should the people drawing the cartoons also be black, and the writers for their script also be black? and the producers who oversee the Black characters should also be black? Should this extend to all TV shows? Will this lead to segregation of our entire society?

  • Don: No need to keep posting. Your comments were being dumped in the spam folder. I have retrieved the first (since the second was the same) and approved it.

    I would have done it sooner but I was busy on some radio show somewhere. :)

  • wayne

    Just heard a large portion of the CtoC show on the radio tonight…..I see the ‘UFO People” have decided to make an appearance…

    “The Best of Coast to Coast AM Whackery”
    2009
    https://youtu.be/i4TSiuKs_ZQ
    8:28

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Max, I think it’s silly, but it really doesn’t have much to do with anything. The obvious ending for this is that if only blacks can play blacks, then only whites can play whites, and there are a lot more roles with whites than with blacks.

    My comments *might* have been uncivil, but they were accurate and thoughtful. I can go over them in more *civil* fashion if you like:

    1.There is no credible evidence that the Covid19 numbers have been exaggerated. I posted a link that references a Yale study that showed that up to the end of May, the number of deaths has almost certainly been undercounted, not overcounted. Anybody can make any claim about the death count been exaggerated, but without any evidence, it’s just a conspiracy theory, and, given the political accusations involved, a whacked out conspiracy theory.

    2.There is no social safety network in place to quarantine the elderly. To do this, literally not allowing them out of the house while the younger people spread the virus to all get herd immunity, would require feeding them, giving them medicine and possibly serving their other needs on a daily basis. There are 50 million Americans aged 65+, not only is there no social safety network presently in place to do this, to set it up while dealing with the coronavirus would probably take a couple years. It’s not even entirely known who exactly has a pre-existing condition and which pre-existing conditions make a person more likely to die from the Coronavirus. Anybody who says quarantine the elderly while letting everybody else go about their business is the one who is not being thoughtful. I’m aware this is the libertarian fantasy way to deal with the virus, because libertarians don’t actually deal with reality.

    Of course, it’s not even certain that people will keep their covid antibodies if they only got a mild reaction anyway. That makes the herd immunity concept even more of a fantasy.

    3.Contrary to what Robert said later on Coast to Coast, his initial comments were to entirely minimize the severity of those 65+ dying from the Coronavirus. Robert can try to backtrack all he like, but his initial comments were literally arguments based on eugenics.

    4.All the states had started to reopen on May 22, and they tended to ignore following the stages of re-opening and went straight to reopening, though not all states. George Floyd was *allegedly* murdered on May 25, and the first protest was not for a few days after that. So, there was no official lockdown in any state that legally barred these mass protests. The precedent for protests not being broken up had already occurred by those protesting the lockdowns themselves though those were much smaller protests. How any ‘liberal’ state would have responded to these mass protests if there had still been a lockdown, I can’t say and nor can anybody else (other than to point out the obvious that it’s hard to disperse a mass protest) but Robert’s comment that liberals engaged in some ideological lock-down, allowing these protests but not allowing church meetings, is really not true.

    Was that civil enough for you? Everything that I’ve said is true and I like to think it was all thoughtful.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    5.Forgot. The confirmed cases have been increasing for a little under 2 weeks. So, that the number of confirmed deaths has not increased, does not necessarily signify anything at this point. Hopefully the death rate from the virus is declining, but the increase in the amount of hospitalizations suggest that isn’t the case.

  • Scott

    Finley someone speaks out the truth of the matter. The numbers are made up just to scare people to fall inline like good little soldiers and goose step. EVERY one who has died in the last three months was counted as covid-19 deaths. I want to see the autopsy report. Give me some real numbers.
    Under the heading of you cant make this up, The county of Wyandotte in Kansas has made it mandatory as of Monday to wear face masks if you are in a public place > UNLES YOU ARE HARD OF HEARING < !!!!!!! I swear to god that's how it is worded. Someone PLEASE explain that to me.
    We will see after the election how this works out. If Trump is elected it will go on. If Biden is elected it will be over. THIS IS JUST POLITICAL people, you know " THE NEW NORMAL "
    Thank You Robert for being one of the last sane people in our country. I think that the isolation that was forced on every one has made every one go NUTS….

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky:
    I know simple minded libertarians like you

    Mr. Zimmerman is neither simple minded nor libertarian. He is though incapable of any serious questioning of his of conclusions and has the same conviction in his own righteousness common in any fanatic.

    Scott:
    EVERY one who has died in the last three months was counted as covid-19 deaths.

    I hope you don’t take yourself seriously. As Adam Tondowsky points out, about 781,000 Americans died in the three months to the end of May, about 122,000 more than average, only 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W, I’m not sure about that.

    Zimmerman’s arguments essentially break down into the simplistic ‘free market good’ ‘government bad.’

    I’m an economic historian (which is not a historian of economics) and I have the Churchillian view that the free market is the worst economic system, except for all the others. The problems with the free market are generally lumped together in what we economists refer to as ‘market failures.’ It becomes very evident if you listen to Zimmerman for any length of time that he denies the existence of market failures. Therefore, I think it is evident that he is both a simplistic thinker and a libertarian.

  • Kristofer Karl Engelhardt

    You are an amazing and greatly needed breath of fresh air, common sense, reason, critical thinking and logic. All but outlawed by the loony left. In the end we shall prevail. Freedom WILL prevail. Truth WILL prevail over the hate of the left. You remind me a lot of my Father and that’s the highest praise I could give anyone. Keep up the fantastic message and TRUTH.

  • David Bullis

    Mr. Zimmerman, you have my respect and sympathy. You manage to cheerfully endure such attacks while delivering valuable information.

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky: I have the Churchillian view that the free market is the worst economic system, except for all the others.

    “It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

    That is obviously not an advocacy of modifying democracy to make it work better through making it less democratic. It’s and acknowledgement that democracy doesn’t always produce the best outcome for society – live with it.

    It’s the fanatic that sees only perfection in their preferred system. I definitely prefer the free market, I don’t advocate for government jumping in to “fix” it, because I see that as almost always producing worse outcomes, delaying the recovery. but I don’t claim the free market system never produces less than perfect outcomes for society.

    Of course there’s more to libertarianism than economics, I’ve found the policies Gary Johnson offered as a fairly good representation of what I see as libertarian philosophy, I doubt very much that Mr. Zimmerman would support the bulk of those policies, I suspect most libertarians in the Republican party would be amongst the people derisively labelled as RINO’s by Mr. Zimmerman.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W,

    The problem here is that the actual evidence – at least so far – does not support your assertion. Pretty much every advanced western democracy on earth where governments jumped in to ‘fix’ the Coronavirus pandemic have had not only vastly better outcomes than the United States, but are more or less successfully opening up.

    In South Korea, it was considered a scandal that one person went to a number of nightclubs and infect about 150 people, and in New Zealand it was considered a scandal that 2 people were allowed into the nation without quarantining for 2 weeks who were both later determined to have the virus, and there isn’t even any evidence they’ve spread the virus to anybody.

    In contrast, the United States is now up to 50,000 confirmed cases a day.

    This is a complete disaster in the United States that did not have to occur, but was allowed to happen due to incompetence, morons promoting idiotic conspiracy theories that the virus was a hoax and simple minded ideological arguments about ‘freedom!’

    Contrary to what Zimmerman falsely argued, in South Korea, New Zealand, Canada and every other advanced democracy that has more or less successfully dealt with this virus so far, those governments are steadily reopening their economies and are stepping back.

    The argument that this is the Coronavirus is a hoax to allow governments to usurp power from the citizens is, at best, whacked out nonsense, and, at worst, a deliberate lie.

  • Cotour

    “So far”.

    As for the Corona virus being a hoax, I really do not think anyone here thinks the actual existence of the virus is in question. But there is a component of political operators here in the United States that is without doubt leveraging it for their own purposes the fear and the confusion.

    And that leverage is focused through the Democrat party and the media and it is against the president for the obvious approaching reasons.

    One more point. Its the governors and the mayors throughout the United States that are in the primary drivers seat and not the president. This president is loath to make a nation wide order related to the virus for a couple of reasons. 1. Because the government is not the peoples daddy and adult Americans should and do make their own decisions. And 2. Any national order would not be able to be enforced, not without great unrest anyway.

    America is different and we will work our way through this situation, and to always compare it to the rest of the world is a mistake.

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky:
    The problem here is that the actual evidence – at least so far – does not support your assertion.

    I assume you’re addressing this from me:
    I definitely prefer the free market, I don’t advocate for government jumping in to “fix” it, because I see that as almost always producing worse outcomes, delaying the recovery.

    If you look carefully you’ll see that I’m addressing situations regarding the free market, not epidemics.

    The Covid-19 epidemic I see in terms of a foreign invader killing people, similar to the threat of an invasion of beings with two legs. How is there any difference in the response of such an invasion by socialists, conservatives, or libertarians? The threat must be met with the strategies that are effective.

    I think you’re confusing political buy-in with ideology, an easy mistake to make in America today where every issue is converted into a political position even if, logically, such a political buy-in is ideologically nuts.

    As and example, what does ideology say about the science of an enhanced Green House Effect? In right wing science is the physics somehow different to what it is with left wing science? Or (and here’s the secret) short we just rationally accept that the science is the science, the physics is what it is and will not be influenced by peoples desires as to what it might be. Same with Covid-19.

    This is why I consider Mr. Zimmerman to be a fanatic, and somewhat paranoid.
    As you point out in New Zealand we were aggressive with our measures to knock this invader on its backside, just a 4 week lock-down, well adhered to, and for over a month we’ve had no sign of community spread, the only cases we’ve had were in those that brought it with them from overseas. As a result once you get through the boarder screening NZ is as it was before the epidemic, no need for social distancing, no need for a continued lockdown – and no leftist take over as Mr. Zimmerman predicts in the US – despite a Labour government in NZ headed by the former world socialist youth president.

    Mr. Zimmerman’s perception of the Covid-19 epidemic is not in a scientifically rational sense but in terms of a political buy-in, Mr. Zimmerman appears incapable of seeing it as anything other than a tool of the left and has made it clear that a return to relative normal as has happened in New Zealand is not what those “evil” leftist American politicians want, or intend, they, in Mr. Zimmerman’s eyes, intend a new permanent autocracy in America – and their “evil” plan must be fought by all right thinking Americans before it’s too late.

    Such a political buy-in might appear to be ideological, it’s not, it’s political. The US has gotten so politically divided people feel the need to go to the extremes (the left and the right) to prove their political credentials, everything ends up as extreme buy-in not extreme ideology, what the heck does “white privilege” or “white fragility” have to do with the historical meaning of economic or “liberal” social ideology? Ditto for so much of the controversy in America today, so far the rest of the world hasn’t caught too bad a case of the hyperpartisanship in American politics, though unfortunately the insanity is gaining ground.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W,

    I largely agree with you however,

    Your first comment seemed to be addressing the free market, but then you mentioned ‘delaying the recovery.’ I don’t know what that means within a general context of free markets, it seemed to be entirely addressing the Coronavirus.

    In regards to ‘white privilege’ and economics, that certainly ties in with slavery and imperialism more broadly which had obvious economic impacts. beyond that, many and an increasing number of economists recognize the reality of systemic bias including systemic racism, which has significant micro and macro economic impacts, to the point of impacting the U.S economy hundreds of billions if not a couple trillion a year.

  • Andrew_W

    ‘delaying the recovery.’
    I had Keynesian economic policy in mind, and the tendency of governments to adopt a supply side approach when dealing with economic crises.

    “that certainly ties in with slavery and imperialism more broadly which had obvious economic impacts.”
    Not in this century.

    I’m a big fan of equality of opportunity, I understand that schools in the US are largely funded through property tax, which results in lower funding for schools in poorer districts? If that is the case there is not equality of opportunity in education but I’ve seen other data that suggests the funding isn’t such a problem in those poor neighborhoods, student attitudes are, where do the students get those attitudes from?

    I think it’s certain that it’s the experiences of black kids that result in the perpetuation of the black underclass in the US but that happens to those kids long before they leave school, to a large degree before they enter school.

    I’ve long tried to come up with an hypothesis that explains black under achievement in academia, a popular right wing theory is genetics, a popular left wing theory is “white privilege”.

    I reject both of the popular theories, the right wing theory because it runs into a wall when we consider the Flynn Effect, the left wing theory because it blames white people for nebulous actions that must evidently adversely affect black kids from a very young age, from before their young lives are influenced to any great degree by evil white people.

    If “white privilege” is a real thing it’s the thing of bringing your kids up so as not to be hostile to teachers, schools, the police and wider society, it’s the thing where kids are not deliberately turned away from trying to achieve in wider society because they shouldn’t “act white”, or because they’re taught that they shouldn’t put effort in to academic subjects because the world is against them due to their race, so even trying is pointless. Much better for black kids to grow up to be resentful of wider US society and concentrate on instilling in them the skills and personality that’ll serve them well in rough neighborhoods, because that’s where they’ll stay.
    A self fulfilling prophesy.

    Of course there are many black kids that do have families and peers that bestow upon them “white privilege”, disproportionately they’re from families that have comparatively recently arrived in the US, whose parents haven’t learned that society won’t let their kids succeed because they’re black – those kids succeed far more often – they’re not told by parents that they can’t succeed, and so they do – one of them even got to be the President.

    That might sound like victim blaming – but it’s the kids that are the victims. It might sound like blaming the parents, but if parents believe American society is unfair to their kids it’s logical to bring their kids up to be hardened against that society.

    Obviously I’m not claiming that this applies to all black families, but I do think racism is on average more prevalent amongst black Americans than white, and that it’s those beliefs wreaking black lives.

    As an economist you’ll understand the importance of perceptions, how they’re often more important in affecting behavior than reality.
    https://theconversation.com/how-do-americans-really-feel-about-interracial-couples-99173

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W

    1.Keynesian policies that address recessions are demand side policies and very few if any credible economists believe they delay recoveries.

    2.Systemic racism is built into the system by definition, so it would effect black kids as soon as they enter school.

    3.There might very well be some truth to what you say, but I tend to reject the idea of single causes, so even if there is some truth to what you say, that does not negate the reality of white privilege/systemic bias.

    4.”If “white privilege” is a real thing it’s the thing of bringing your kids up so as not to be hostile to teachers, schools, the police and wider society”

    Not meaning to be snarky, not too much anyway, but that’s certainly an interesting point given the view expressed here (maybe not in so many words specifically) that Americans have had a harder time addressing the Coronavirus because they’re such freedom loving people who reject authority and authority figures like teachers and police officers.

    Now you’re telling me that white Americans anyway have been raised to be respectful of authority and to the concerns of other people (wider society.)

    I don’t see how those two things aren’t in complete contradiction. It’s not un-common for people to state one myth about their nation to make one point and then state a completely contradictory myth to make another point at another time, but it’s not often I see two contradictory myths argued side by side.

  • Cotour

    Adam Tondowsky:

    You appear to be a government down authoritarian.

    From what country do you come? Why do I ask? Because you are either from another country, or you are a member of an American extremist Leftist radical group. Because that is what you sound like.

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    this is going to be interesting. (Andrew_W and Adam, in the Octagon…)

    Hope all remains well at your end, oppressively hot & humid here in Southwest Mi.
    -Tonight, we’re going to watch North By Northwest, and then watch President Trump do fireworks at Mount Rushmore.

    speaking of which…
    let’s go for a drive-

    “Interstate 90 to Mt Rushmore”
    [music: The Outlaws; Green Grass & High Tide]
    The Highwayman
    2012
    https://youtu.be/L5dTpXtA7H0
    10:09

  • Cotour

    Wayne, I was thinking similar thoughts regarding Andrew W and “new guy”, Adam Tondowsky. They seem made for each other :)

    And my dream for Mount Rushmore?

    A Trump carving added to the four existing presidents? NO.

    A giant “T” on top with bright lights illuminating it every night. Talk about offensive symbology, I would write a check for $1000.00 as a contribution.

  • Cotour: From Canada, Vancouver to be specific.

  • Andrew_W

    1. Oop! Supply side.

    2. Now you just have to show what exactly it is in the classroom, because what I see in the households I know of is that those destructive attitudes start at home.

    3. ” . .that does not negate the reality of white privilege/systemic bias.”
    But it could reduce it to 5% of what is commonly claimed, in which case it’s not the #1 issue that needs to be addressed, an issue that everyone ignores because pointing out that the antisocial attitudes are created in those homes is taboo.

    4. ” . . .they’re such freedom loving people who reject authority and authority figures like teachers and police officers.”
    Do they “reject” the authority or the misuse of that authority? And is rejecting the misuse the same as being “hostile” to the authority of those people? Ever notice how respectful those high IQ Asian kids are of their teachers, white American kids typically less so.
    Your point is a strawman, do you really think kids that are successful at school and academia are “hostile” to their teachers? I’ve seen several descriptions from teachers of what the attitude is towards them is in poorer black schools in the US, it’s not what goes on in schools around here, now or 50 years ago.
    “Now you’re telling me that white Americans anyway have been raised to be respectful of authority . .” Compared to the kids in those inner city schools? You bet bucko,

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    I’ll have to think on that one a bit….

    Back to the Future Part 2
    Biff’s World
    https://youtu.be/S4m848bh1iY
    2:09

    Metallica –
    I Disappear
    -cued to the crop-duster sequence-
    https://youtu.be/ekZTW2r4vb4?t=37

  • Andrew_W

    Me: But it could reduce it to 5% of what is commonly claimed, in which case it’s not the #1 issue that needs to be addressed, an issue that everyone ignores because pointing out that the antisocial attitudes are created in those homes is taboo.

    I might have to revise that 5% upwards quite a bit (25%? 35%?) given what I think is a pretty good analysis of a Ben Shapiro by Aba & Preach:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlG6hRNdCT0
    [36:10]

  • commodude

    If you’re concerned about being socially correct, Andrew, I’m sure you will be pleased by and welcome the Chinese social credit system coming soon to a ChiCom puppet government near you….VERY near you, as New Zealand has disarmed itself.

  • Rose

    commodude, do you really consider it “socially correct” to state that the most significant obstacles to success for most African American children come from their own culture (specifically disrespect for instructors and undervaluing of education), and that claims of systematic bias are highly exaggerated?

    Andrew, I really do wonder if people read the content of your posts.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W
    1.No! Demand side. Keynes argued, using more modern economic parlance, that consumer spending (the demand side) was the long run driver of economic growth. Of course, Keynes died in 1945 right after the Great Depression and World War II, before ‘normal’ economic times returned, so it’s impossible to know what Keynes would have advocated in terms of government involvement in the economy going forward. It is known that Keynes opposed Atlee’s industrial nationalization plans, and Keynes remained a supporter of the Liberal party even as it fell to under 10% national support.

    It is reasonable to conclude that many things advocated as part of Keynesian economics Keynes himself would have opposed. Therefore, it’s reasonable to conclude that Keynes himself was never a Keynesian.

    2-3. This isn’t really an area I have much expertise in. I refer to systemic bias rather than racial bias because I’m more familiar with the research into systemic bias against women. Given that blacks make up around 13% of the U.S population and that women make up about 52%, it’s also reasonable to conclude that most of the economic loss caused by systemic bias comes from bias against women.

    However, this is one research article on how systemic racism in schooling occurs: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1090572.pdf

    4.If white Americans had been raised to respect authority and their fellow Americans as you claim, the Trump Virus would not be spreading like wildfire in the United States.

  • Andrew_W

    . . .research into systemic bias against women.

    You must be a specialist.

  • Cotour

    “You don’t love me, so I must destroy you”.

    “But I respect you”.

    “No matter, we are not “equal”, so I must destroy you”.

  • Andrew_W

    4.If white Americans had been raised to respect authority and their fellow Americans as you claim, the Trump Virus would not be spreading like wildfire in the United States.
    Trumps election and Hillary’s selection are products of the division in America, neither would get a look-in in any other Western country. Really strange things happen when countries become so at war with themselves, people get into power whose rise would be unbelievable in other times.

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky, I’ve read your link, the researchers involved started with the premise that institutional racism was very significant, and that teachers were wrong. And saw in the interviews the evidence that they wanted and expected. They appear to not have even considered the possibility that many of the beliefs the teachers had were correct, obviously having the intention from the outset of proving to themselves the teachers racial biases.

    There are numerous papers referenced that the authors of the research article claim support their position, the couple I’ve tried to check so far I haven’t gotten access to.

    The article does mention “resistence”:
    In the context of schools, resistance occurs when students struggle against the and organizing structures and norms of schools because of their own marginalization, lack of power, and poor treatment (Abowitz, 2000; Hendrickson, 2012; McLaren, 1985). Resistance theorists see resistance as a logical and often unconscious reaction to the recognition that instead of being the democratic institutions they are purported to be, schools are in fact places where social reproduction occurs.

    Which is a big chunk of what I’ve been pointing to, but the assumption is that this “resistence” is again the fault of schools and organizations and that students, in their “resistance”, have no agency or responsibility for their own behaviour.

    Overall the article has no value due to the obvious confirmation bias of the author, but I will have to see if I can access a few of the referenced papers and see if the authors interpretations of those papers is accurate.

  • Andrew _W

    Commodude:
    “As New Zealand has disarmed itself”
    Mr. Zimmerman made that claim in a post a while ago, that the vast majority of firearms in New Zealand had been made illegal. Mr. Zimmerman was wrong, I pointed that out in comments.

  • Andrew_W: This comment is exactly why people find you annoying and not worth conversing with. You provide no references, but use these vague statements as a weapon to accuse me of being “wrong.” As I noted before, all you do is search for ways to disagree with everyone and then express your disagreement in the rudest possible way.

    This might satisfy your emotional needs, but it is anti-social, non-productive, and shows a complete lack of good will. It is also why others tire of discussing any subject with you, and why they (and I) begin to act as badly in response to you, becoming snarky in their responses in self defense (something I admit to and for which I regret).

    It is, as I say, getting very tiresome.

  • Andrew_W

    Mr. Zimmerman, commodude made a comment, in which the claims were wrong, his snarky comment was unprovoked. I pointed out a post on BtB in which his concerns had been raised and addressed.
    https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/new-zealand-confisicates-guns-gun-crime-goes-up/

  • commodude

    Andrew_W, where did I say anything about personal weapons?

  • Andrew_W

    Commodude, that’s the only disarming that’s happened around here for 3 decades, what disarming were you referring to?

  • commodude

    No Air Force combat capabilty, 2 MEKO offshoot frigates that comprise your navy, and not even a complete brigade for land forces.

    Your country is effectively disarmed, relying on distance and US/Australian forces to retain your sovereignty.

  • Andrew _W

    Defense spending has been constant at about 1.1% of GDP for decades, a similar level to many western countries. Small countries have smaller armed forces. You might expect New Zealand to be invaded by China at any time, few others think so.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W

    1.On systemic bias against women, it became a topic of interest after Hilary Clinton’s defeat in 2016, and the Canadian government also primarily focused on that aspect of systemic bias.

    For instance, the Liberal government of Canada hired a woman RCMP commissioner after systemic bias was reported on in the mounted police, but after Black Lives Matter people pointed out systemic racism in the RCMP, she struggled to define the concept and said she couldn’t say if she thought it existed or not.

    Her one example at a hearing, which I don’t think media commentators fully understood, was to point out that shorter people can’t jump as high as taller people during police examinations. She didn’t go into detail, but I’m sure what she meant by that was that women, generally being shorter, can’t pass police examinations due to this test and also, that she doesn’t feel that test is relevant to being a police officer.

    So, if that is correct, then that is an example of systemic bias against women, but it has nothing to do with racial bias.

    2.In regards to the Trump Virus, I was referring to both his election in 2016 and the Coronavirus, which has been so badly handled in the U.S, at this point it certainly is the Trump Virus.

  • commodude

    Again assuming…

    Though when are you going to be able to defend your national sovereignty and fisheries by means other than wagging an irritated finger in China’s direction? Even Iceland manages better resource defense.

    Your nation can control neither your airspace nor your EEZ. You’re effectively disarmed.

  • Andrew _W

    Commodude. RE fisheries patrol.
    Please do a little research.

  • commodude

    I know what your fisheries patrol, and I’m well aware of the diplomatic issues which have arisen in the past with illegal boats in New Zealand waters.

    You waggle your finger at Peking and say “please don’t do it again, or we’ll REALLY get mad the next time.”

    China “fines” the offenders, re-registers the boats under another shell company belonging to the PLAN, and sends them back out.

  • Andrew _W

    You should support your claims with links.

  • commodude

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/30-03-2016/how-chinas-illegal-fishing-armada-is-plundering-the-south-pacific/

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11687456

    https://www.undercurrentnews.com/2017/06/22/china-fines-illegal-vessels-fishing-tuna-off-new-zealand-coast/

    https://en.mercopress.com/2015/01/14/new-zealand-navy-detects-three-toothfish-poachers-red-handed-in-the-ross-sea

    I’m sure The YongDing, KunLun and Songhua Are all Spanish owned…..rename, reflag, continue fishing under a different shell corporation. THeir own EEZ is n overfished hit mess, so they send their fleets outward.

    Permission to board was “Requested” (may I pretty please board your ship caught red handed illegally fishing in the area….)….as opposed to the actions Iceland has and will take in defense of their EEZ, ref. the Codfish wars of the 1970s.

  • Andrew _W

    But none of those illegal fishing acts were in the NZ EEZ, they were all breaches of international fishing agreements with the power to impose disciplinary measures the responsibility of the flag nation.

    The NZ naval intervention you suggest would be acts of piracy.

  • Commodude

    Actually, the links fro. 2016 and 17 are I. The eez, the last one is in a region that fishing is supposed to be barred in, but the “enforcers” kowtow to the hidden city.

  • Commodude: I dislike acronyms. What is the EEZ?

  • Andrew _W

    Commodude. No, reread, in international waters and adjacent to NZ waters.

    Exclusive economic zone.

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky, I don’t see any compelling evidence of systemic bias against women in your comment.

    The alienation of groups I find a fascinating topic, I think it has a huge impact on the behaviour of groups that feel exploited, often to their own substantial detriment. The rejection of colonial powers morphed into a rebellion against pretty much everything associated with colonialism – something Africa is only recently getting over. I think these visceral human reactions usually aren’t well understood; They’re instinctive, not evil. I see parallels with much of what’s happening among several demographic groups in America.
    Why Socialism Failed In Africa [12:50]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUBXW6SjuQA

  • commodude

    EEZ, or Economic Exclusion Zone, is the area within a 200 mile limit that a nation is allowed complete control of. New Zealand’s EEZ contains large fishing grounds that they have a difficult time policing due to utterly toothless treaties.

    New Zealand is very proper about their enforcement of the zone, with the appropriate mother may I requests to the ChiCom shell companies controlling the boats.

    Iceland has taken a rather different, somewhat more proactive stance.

  • Andrew_W

    Having failed to demonstrate any incidents of NZ fisheries protection assets not doing their job of protecting NZ’s EEZ, Commodude again resorts to making baseless claims.

  • commodude

    Having failed to effectively refute any statements made in the linked articles, and having failed to prove that New Zealand’s fisheries protection service is actually protecting their EEZ, Andrew again resorts to ad hominems.

    See how easy that is?

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W

    I did not link to any evidence of systemic bias against women or provide any evidence myself. For evidence of systemic bias, I would obviously recommend Thinking: Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman.

    This is a Forbes Magazine article on one aspect of systemic bias and how it alone leads to hundreds of billions in lost GDP every year.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2017/10/26/new-data-reveals-the-hard-costs-of-bias-and-how-to-disrupt-it/#221965d74595

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky
    I question their methodology, people who aren’t very good at their job, or just don’t get seen as ripe for promotion by superiors, often attribute their failure to progress other peoples biases:”He doesn’t like me because I’m (pick your victim hood)” rather than attributing it to their own ineptitude.

    Employees at large companies who perceive bias are nearly three times as likely (20% vs 7%) to be disengaged at work.
    Which came first, the disengagement, or the perception of bias?

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky
    I’ve known people socially that are lazy, dishonest or incompetent, they don’t get promoted at work, indeed they’re far more likely to get sacked. I’ve never known any of them to attribute their problems at work to their own ineptitude.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W

    If that’s the case, why is it overwhelmingly women who perceive bias at work?

    The only 2 possibilities are the women are telling the truth (in aggregate) or that women are more lazy, dishonest or incompetent than men.

  • Andrew_W

    The only 2 possibilities are . . .

    Presumably you’ve put some effort into considering what possible explanations there are before making such an assertion.
    If so, and if there are other, obvious, possible explanations, how would you explain your inability to recognize them?

  • sippin_bourbon

    There seems to be a complete misunderstanding of Eugenics. It is not a simple matter of “survival of the fittest”.

    I did not catch the radio show. Was there some mention of selective breeding, sterilization or euthanasia of the feeble minded and mental defectives, or elimination of “human weeds”? If not, then it was not eugenics.

    The only conversations I have heard discussing these matters were old interviews of Margaret Sanger I found on utube.

  • sippin_bourbon: Of course there was no discussion of “selective breeding, sterilization or euthanasia of the feeble minded and mental defectives, or elimination of “human weeds.” The only point I made on the show is that COVID-19 is really only a threat to the elderly sick, and the focus should be to protect them. In the process of explaining how we know this (the bulk of the deaths have been among the cohorts over 60 and even there focused on those who are ill) it seems reader Adam Tondowsky misunderstood me.

    Anyone who has read even 1% of my writing will know to accuse me of being in favor of eugenics is absurd, and contrary to everything I stand for.

    But then, people these days tend to react emotionally and quickly, without spending much time on reflection. This is why we are where we are.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Survival of the fittest to advance civilization is the ideology behind eugenics, and it is exactly what Robert Zimmerman spoke in favor of on the show, despite whatever he may say.

    Mr Zimmerman may claim to oppose eugenics, but his protestations aside, he isn’t what he likes to think he is.

    As I have written before, which has not been addressed, their is no mechanism in place to protect the elderly in the United States. Even Sweden, which has a much more expansive social safety system could not do so successfully.

    Again, Mr Zimmerman may believe he spends time reflecting, and again, he’s only lying to himself.

    Andrew W
    It seems you are now just playing games. That’s unfortunate because you seemed interesting for awhile.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    “As I have written before, which has not been addressed, their is no mechanism in place” ‘there’ not ‘their.’

    The Encyclopedia Britannica refers to Social Darwinism as the ideology of ‘survival of the fittest to advance civilization’ but it also intrinsically ties in eugenics with Social Darwinism.

    http://blogs.britannica.com/2009/02/beyond-darwin-eugenics-social-darwinism-and-the-social-theory-of-the-natural-selection-of-humans/

    Either way, Mr Zimmerman made it clear that his view is that [fake quotation mark]if tens of thousands of older people with underlying health conditions have to die so that I can do what I want, I don’t care. However, to not make myself seem so bad, I’ll promote some whacked out conspiracy theories so as to falsely claim that the number of deaths from the Trump Virus isn’t as bad as it really is.[fake quotation mark]

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky, obviously it is far more likely going to be in situations in which there are people of different race and sexual groups working together that there will be the possibility of real or perceived racial or sexual discrimination occurring than when the people involved are of the same race and sex group. And of course, there’s far more opportunity for the superior in a situation of real or perceived discrimination occurring to be white and/or male, because that’s how the numbers are.

    Because of the nature of the sexes, men will not publicly whine about sexism by women, if they do, society does not take them seriously. So they don’t complain, if there’s a problem it has to be with the woman as an individual, not as a member of the fair sex.

    Because of the whole “white man bad” ethos in western society, with many even claiming that “black people can’t be racist”, any white person claiming to be a victim of racism by a black superior will be going against the publicly acceptable narrative, if the white boss is at fault it’s OK to say it’s racial, if a black boss is at fault, the accusation cannot be racial.

    Is it OK for a man to hit a woman? Is it OK for a woman to hit a man?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GccCWo_eZdw

    In our society it’s far more OK for men to be the victims of women than the other way around.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXCPcq_RTY

    The word misogyny is thrown around freely in society and in the media, the word misandry almost unknown.

    And a black victim of claimed racial injustice will get far more public attention and sympathy than a white victim of claimed racial injustice, the former praised, the latter fired.
    I would link to the killing of Daniel Shaver, for which the officer went unpunished, but if you want to look at it, it’s easy to find.

    When people of some demographic groups claim they’re a victim or bigotry they’re praised for their courage and quickly believed. For people of other groups, making the same claim will attract scorn and disbelief. Obviously this reality encourages people in some groups to speak out, and discourages people in other groups to do so.

    This should all be obvious, but evidently it’s a possibility that never crossed your mind.

    I would not be surprised if, having read my above points, you’re inclined to assume I’m a bitter victim of some past perceived injustice, someone with a personal stake. If so, you’re wrong, you’re just buying into the acceptable narratives.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Adam

    First, that link is not from the encyclopedia proper, but the blog portion and was written by the biomedical science editor. Blog = Opinion. Educated and informed, perhaps, but opinion none the less.

    In the proper section of the encyclopedia, Eugenics is “The selection of desired heritable characteristics in order to improve future generations..” The notable lack of the word “natural” (as an adjective to selection) here is paramount because the idea that we can breed a better species through delibrate selection of some and sterilization of others was the heart of the matter. It’s focus in on future, not current, members of the species.

    And again looking to proper definitions, the actual encyclopedia pages define Social Darwinism as “the theory that human groups and races are subject to the same laws of natural selection as Charles Darwin perceived in plants and animals in nature.” So, yes, derived from Darwin, but separate theories and not interchangeable. Notably, there is no mention of eugenics on that page.

    The blog describes Social Darwinism as a uniting of Darwin’s theories of Natural Selection with Galton’s separate theory of non-natural selection in Eugenics. So again, a derivation of theories. But not interchangeable. There is no communicative property that I can find here.

    If anything, Mr Z is guilty of being a Darwinist, as disease, even pandemic, is a natural force. To conclude as you have is a hasty generalization, or possibly even an informal fallacy (packaged deal).

  • Adam Tondowsky: You can claim whatever you want about what you think I said, but you do not have the right to create a fake quote of something I said. I have removed the fake quotes, and labeled that quote as a fake.

    I am being incredibly tolerant of both you and Andrew_W. I really should suspend you both for a week, you for this particular comment and Andrew_W for his insulting manner to you in his last comment. However, I’ve decided to give you both a bit more rope to hang yourselves, which you both are doing most ably.

  • Rose

    Andrew, are you familiar with the writer Coleman Hughes?

    I just learned of him yesterday from this interview by Freddie Sayers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k9F8I_-HL0
    The title, “Coleman Hughes: The moral case against Black Lives Matter” is a bit hyperbolic, but I was quite impressed with his thoughtful and well informed remarks, and I’ve been equally impressed by the couple articles of his that I’ve subsequently read.

  • Cotour

    I have never seen this said or inferred here on this web cite: “If tens of thousands of older people with underlying health conditions have to die so that I can do what I want, I don’t care.”. Never seen this, where did you get it from?

    There are lines that need to be drawn, even under these conditions where we are experiencing a viral contagion that is moving through our country and the world. You (And Andrew W) being from other country’s do not exactly understand the American attitude related to such things. The government can only do so much to practically protect anyone, and then balance that with individual freedoms.

    The government, here anyway, is not our daddy who’s roof we live under and must tow “His” line to be seen as being “Good”, or righteous, or worse, obedient. You being from another country and that country being more a Left oriented country seem to not get this fundamental concept. (Maybe you are a Neo Marxist who thinks that Marxism just has not been done properly?)

    And Trumps reticence to declare a national policy on masks for example goes to what I have laid out here and is in fact a gold star for him. He understands the intent of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights as they were intended. We are all adults and must properly educate ourselves and life entails risk. And government can only do so much to protect the general welfare of the masses.

    You (And Andrew W) on the other hand see the government in a situation like this as an authoritarian entity that MUST fire off mandates for the protection of the citizens that in their reality are secondary and not primary. In your model government is primary. Its a very different perspective that explains your (And Andrew W’s) attitude to much of what is discussed here.

    And so I leave you with this: https://youtu.be/0Japc8M8RQw

    If you were an American this would choke you up and you would feel proud, as corny as it may seem.

    MAGA

  • Andrew_W

    Rose, yes, he’s written several articles for Quillette. I don’t find much I disagree with him on.
    https://quillette.com

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Mr Zimmerman, that’s fine. I have Coast Insider and can quote exactly what you said on Coast to Coast AM. Your actual quotes are every bit as vile. I should have used only paraphrasing quotes, and it was wrong of me to not do so.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W
    1.”And of course, there’s far more opportunity for the superior in a situation of real or perceived discrimination occurring to be white and/or male, because that’s how the numbers are.”

    But, why should those be the numbers? The majority of the population are women.

    2.” Obviously this reality encourages people in some groups to speak out, and discourages people in other groups to do so.”
    None of the women in the story spoke out publicly as far as I know.

    Your arguments on men and whites being less likely to step forward also don’t really make sense given that white identity victimization was clearly the main driver of Trump voters.

    I suppose it’s possible that these people were willing to express their opinion at the macro level, but not at the micro level, but since your arguments are mostly based on anecdotes, my anecdotal experience with several (former) friends and acquaintances is that these aggrieved whites, mostly white males, do nothing but talk about their grievances.

    3.”I would not be surprised if, having read my above points, you’re inclined to assume I’m a bitter victim of some past perceived injustice, someone with a personal stake. If so, you’re wrong, you’re just buying into the acceptable narratives.”

    Not at all. My inclination is that you are a white male arguing to preserve the status quo. In that regard, there are also acceptable narratives promoted by those in the ‘power elite’ that, while any white person must have made earned their position entirely by themselves, that women or minorities only achieved higher positions due to preference in hiring mandates.

    While I acknowledge that there might be a handful of valid reasons why males might be over-represented in positions of management, you said it yourself: “white and/or male, because that’s how the numbers are.”

    Again, back to the question: but why are those the numbers?

  • Adam Tondowsky

    1.”while any white person must have made earned their position entirely by themselves, that women or minorities only achieved higher positions due to preference in hiring mandates.”

    should say “while any white person must have earned their position entirely by themselves…”

    2.While I acknowledge that there might be a handful of valid reasons why males might be over-represented in positions of management, you said it yourself: “white and/or male, because that’s how the numbers are.”

    should say “White I acknowledge that there might be a handful of valid reasons why males might by slightly over-represented…”

  • Adam Tondowsky: Rather than spend time seeing me as an enemy, why don’t you spend a little time reading some of my essays here. You will find that your first impression was wrong.

  • Cotour

    Once you are classified as “Pure scum” by a neo Liberal you remain pure scum. (You don’t love me, so I must destroy you)

    This is the fully indoctrinated and enraged Left visiting, why bother even attempting to have him see you in other terms? The only answer here is hammer and tong until some semblance of reason can be arrived at.

    And that will not be happening.

  • commodude

    Adam,

    The “economic discrimination” against women is, in large part, a statistical fallacy.

    Take, for instance a place of business governed by a collective bargaining agreement(CBA.)

    Wages are the same across the bargaining unit per contract, based on seniority and job.

    Hours are governed by the contract. wages are governed by the contract.

    Overtime opportunities are governed by the contract, by seniority, completely blind to age, gender and race.

    However, when the numbers are crunched, women (frequently) wind up making a lower average wage than their male counterparts.

    Not because of discrimination against women, unlikely to happen, there’s a CBA in place, and settling a grievance tends to be more expensive than doing it correctly in the first place.

    Why, therefore, is there an average hourly wage difference?

    Men of all age groups tend to volunteer for more overtime. Overtime rates are higher than straight time, and skew the hourly wage markedly. Everyone has the same opportunities, but women, not because they are lazy, but for a large number of social reasons, tend to work fewer hours. Fewer hours equals less overtime, and hence, lower average wages. Same CBA, no discrimination, but someone looking at the numbers with an ax to grind can easily “prove” wage discrimination.

    A well paid statistician can and will twist the numbers in the favor of the person writing the check.

    These “studies”, products of degree mills and public interest research groups “proving” their point for more donations aren’t worth the paper they’re printed of.

  • Andrew_W

    Adam Tondowsky
    But, why should those be the numbers? . . . While I acknowledge that there might be a handful of valid reasons why males might be over-represented in positions of management, . . . back to the question: but why are those the numbers?
    Perhaps you could start by you could give those “might be a handful of valid reasons” and then I can cover other reasons I think valid.

    My inclination is that you are a white male arguing to preserve the status quo.
    That’s not how I see my position, the relative roles of men and women in society have changed with time, influenced by many changing factors, factors that will continue to change – including some of those “might be a handful of valid reasons”. So again, go for it, no point in me arguing points you already acknowledge.

  • Cotour

    Women, know your limits: https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w

  • Andrew _W

    Cotour, are you trying to trigger Adam? :-)

  • Adam Tondowsky

    1.Cotour doesn’t trigger me. I pretty much ignore him because I’m not interested in most of his points.

    2.Commodude had the generally right idea as to the valid point: women often are the one to take family leave and this slows down their advancement in the workplace. That is valid as far as it goes in that it isn’t the sexism of the workplace here, but sexism in society and the family. This does seem to be steadily changing.

    As to the rest of Commodude’s points, I’m not sure how he can both cite a study while seemingly attacking all the studies in the field. I suppose he could be agreeing with the one study that agrees with his point of view, while saying all the other studies are biased, but I’m not sure I should trust him as being unbiased then.

  • commodude

    Adam, it’s not a study, it’s personal number crunching and has nothing to do with family leave or slowed advancement, everyone is on the same wage scale. It has everything to do with personal choices, not sexism.

  • Andrew_W

    1. As Commodude points out, men on average work longer “full time” hours, often through working more higher paid overtime hours. This difference in overtime by males is always concealed in the studies that set out to prove discrimination against women.

    2. As Adam points out, women choose to take family leave, this slows advancement towards more senior positions.

    3. There are a lot of higher paid, higher risk, less pleasant jobs that women choose to forgo, in commercial fishing, lumber work, public sanitation, these are choices, not discrimination.

    It’s ridiculous that people making free choices about their hours of work, time off for family leave, electing to leave less pleasant work for others – resulting in a lower average full time income, is claimed as discrimination.

    There are also many high paid occupations in which women are becoming more common than men: doctors, vets, dental hygienists, medical & health technicians, dietitians and nutritionists. These are occupations that men as individuals have on average chosen not to pursue. Should we be concerned at these male choices? Should we be looking to launch campaigns to encourage men into occupations that are lower on their preferred ranking of occupations? Should we conclude that men not choosing these occupations is evidence of discrimination against them?

    In my household my wife gets to spend more of the family income than I do, she also earns less, works far less in paid employment, that’s how it is, personally I’d be happy for her to earn more in paid employment, her choice not to, and there would be a heck of a lot of other households following a similar model.
    Our domestic earning situation will enter the statistics as proof of discrimination against women in the studies Alan would prefer to cite, because those studies want to prove such discrimination.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    I don’t know how much time I have for this tonight, but, fine Robert, I’ll listen to the Coast to Coast interview again and quote you in sections word for word. Let’s see how accurate I was in assessing your comments and how accurate you are.

    On Howard Bloom, the guest in the ‘news’ segment earlier on in the show
    “(To George Noory) You had this maniac on, I’m sorry I won’t be gentle about it, talking about all these cases, the increase in cases, we’re all going to die! That’s total idiocy. Yes, we have more cases because we’re aggressively testing more, we are doing pool tests by the way, and have for the last month and a half, that’s why the number of tests are going up.”

    1.Robert, if somebody had posted this here with the name-calling, would that person have gotten a warning from you?

    2.Howard Bloom never said ‘we’re all going to die’, was that a fake quote?

    3.The number of cases aren’t going up merely due to more testing, the hospitalizations per day are increasing:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/08/14-states-puerto-rico-hit-their-highest-seven-day-average-new-covid-19-infections-since-june/

    “We are doing tons and tons of new tests, but you know the death rate continues to drop or is flat. What should that tell you? That should tell you that the disease is running its course, we’re beginning to have herd immunity, people are having the disease but they’re not dying from it. And if they are dying, they’re dying almost exclusively because they’re old and sick. The elderly sick, more than anybody, just like the flu. We don’t panic about the flu.

    1.Deaths are a lagging indicator, as a person who claims to be driven by data, you should know that. The number of hospitalizations started to increase three weeks ago, so it remains to be seen if the number of deaths increase as they should only be starting to increase about now.

    2.Whether herd immunity has been achieved or not is based on the increase in the number of cases, not on the number of deaths. I don’t know why you would think that herd immunity would lower the percentage of deaths.

    Then we get into the loopy conspiracy theories on why the deaths are overstated. And I’ve put enough into this for tonight except for this brief point
    “…flu deaths are down this year.”

    Except, they’re not. The CDC has only put out an estimated range to this point, and this estimate 24-000-62,000. In any normal year since 2010, the CDC estimates between 12,000-61,000 die from the seasonal flu. So, the 2019-2020 estimate of flu deaths is right in line with the previous numbers for the past decade.

    I will provide the rest of the quote on this later.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Andrew W,

    1.I’ve read a number of the studies, and, no, that is not left out. Academic economists obviously have biases like anybody (there is, in fact, a good deal of sexism in academia, including economists) but they tend not to make overt mistakes or intentionally skew the numbers, especially when a fellow economist will easily find it.

    2.Beyond the initial point that I made on family leave, what does any of that have to do with who gets promoted to managerial positions? That was the initial point of discussion, not wage/salary rates between different types of jobs.

  • Adam Tondowsky

    I wrote: 2.Howard Bloom never said ‘we’re all going to die’, was that a fake quote?

    I should have written “was that a fake quote, or was that a mocking interpretation of Howard Bloom’s argument.”

    Does mocking somebody’s arguments count as name calling here?

  • commodude

    Adam,

    When you can’t refute the facts, shift the intent.

    You were talking economic sexism, as was I . When the sands shift under your feet, shift the purported argument, that way you can never lose the debate.

    Well done.

  • wayne

    commodude–

    Jon Lovitz
    Tonight Show appearance
    3-28-1985
    https://youtu.be/pkYNBwCEeH4
    2:29

  • Andrew_W

    Adam, what is your understanding of the size of the gap in income in the US between men and women?

  • Adam Tondowsky

    Commodude,

    how could I have been talking about economic sexism with you when I wasn’t speaking to you?

    The conversation I’ve been having is with Andrew W, and it is specifically about this article:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2017/10/26/new-data-reveals-the-hard-costs-of-bias-and-how-to-disrupt-it/#3acea67d4595

    Andrew W, I will answer your question later. I am going back to bed right now. You and Robert may be happy to know that shortly after my previous comments here, I saw Episode 2 of The Prisoner starring Patrick McGoohan.

  • commodude

    Adam…

    Of course.

    I forgot, this is your personal forum to discuss with Andrew_W.

    Again, shifting terms.

    When you can’t face facts, walk the other way.

  • Cotour

    The problem with the Neo Liberal empowerment is that they want to use the power of the state not to just even situations out, no, no, no. They tend to want to pass laws that compel speech and behavior to the point where everyone can not live as they please. And not living in an unreasonable manner but to the standards of these up tight and hyper righteous actors.

    No one that I know supports the abuse of women or anyone else in the work place. I know I certainly do not. And if there is then let rational law deal with such.

    “You don’t love me, so I must destroy you” (This is the logic and the justification of the “Progressive” mantra and agenda)

    “But I respect you and your differences”

    No matter, you must be destroyed”. (You are a white man and are deemed to be inherently evil, I.E. The Founders of America)

    In many cases this kind of “Progress” becomes the over intellectualization of the human being to the point where no one is allowed to be human. And I am sure that Adam has the best intentions, but I do not always like what some people with their good intentions intend. They all ten to become authoritarians themselves and they then become what it is that they say they hate. I know it when I see it.

    When someone uses the term “Pure evil” to describe someone else right off the bat, that tells me just about everything that I need to know. Is what it is.

  • Cotour

    Andrew W: Adam comes pre triggered, its his natural Leftist state of righteous being, and can see no other view. (It is plain tome in how he chooses to communicate (But its really no longer a choice). He is angry and he is hateful, because you and every other white male on planet earth deserves his anger and his hate)

    People like this work well in places like China employed by the party leaders who empower them to make and enforce the “Proper” policies that the people MUST follow. A delight.

  • Cotour

    This is where you find yourself when people like Adam become empowered and EVERYTHING is seen through the lens of political correctness.

    https://taskandpurpose.com/news/boeing-comms-resign-women-combat

    A Boeing executive is forced do to “Political correctness” to “Retire” because of an article he wrote 35 YEARS AGO having to do with women in combat.

    Another good example of this kind of thought and compelled behavior is someone like mayor of New York City Bill the Marxist “Jr. Sandinista” DeBlasio as he righteously and like any good Marxist would do drives NYC into the ground as his policies of “Political correctness” and “equality” take hold. Just like in Seattle. Chaos, lawlessness and getting people killed and destroying is their product. But its all done in the name of “Fairness” and “equality” and “equality” of outcome.

    Hammer and tong, and let them not hide behind their faux righteousness.

  • wayne

    I am not, a Coast to Coast Insider….

    “Art Bell Interviews Time Traveler from the Year 2063 named “Single Seven a.k.a. Jonathan””
    July 1998
    https://youtu.be/fgzTtz3ukfI
    1:07:20

  • Cotour

    Actual rational real world push back to the “Social Justice Warriors” and their agendas likes that of Adam Tondowski beginning with the usually Left leaning in the intellectual realm?

    https://nypost.com/2020/07/07/j-k-rowling-among-dozens-to-call-for-end-to-cancel-culture/

    Maybe there is hope? (Noam Chomski?)

  • Andrew_W

    Adam: You and Robert may be happy to know that shortly after my previous comments here, I saw Episode 2 of The Prisoner starring Patrick McGoohan.
    Fiction in which people don’t act like people has little appeal to me, but you enjoy yourself.

    I will answer your question later.
    Found this, somewhere to start:
    https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap

  • Cotour

    I just watched this Joe Rogan interview with the father of the guy that runs Scientology who after 42 years inside had to escape its clutches, and he wrote a book about it. You want to listen to an interesting story about how power corrupts? Maybe his son put a hit out on him? Or maybe not? By any means necessary is a familiar theme.

    https://youtu.be/FVVdCikBDQk

    And what you get out of this is a good lesson in the acquisition of and retention of power and how it corrupts, and mind control, and brainwashing, and lost people searching for some form of leadership. Just like Jim Jones and its just like the Lefts politics of “Political correctness” and their push to destroy the country down to its foundation.

    The Lefts (And the Democrats by default) agenda now consists of eliminating religion, men are women, women are men, no I.D. to vote, no singing in church, mandatory masks, destroy history and its symbols, BLM, Globalism, up is down, black is white, good is bad etc, etc. All the exact opposite of what is proscribed by the Constitution and common sense.

    This is political warfare and it has always been, and always will be. Just learn to see it and those who intend to control you for what it is in all of its forms. Nothing new here, except the addition of the highest level of mind control and media influence in the form of technology and the internet.

    That one multi faceted aspect is the only thing that is the wild card here.

  • Andrew_W

    I hesitate to put this link here because the video is EXPLETIVE LADEN, just his style of language.
    I post because, with his background and life experience, he effectively refutes many white leftists understanding on what “white privilege” is, so really here for Adam.

    5 Things Everyone Should Know About Inner City Black Communities From A White Guy. [24:10]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQljlF_BDYY&list=WL&index=4&t=0s

  • Andrew_W: Thank you for letting my readers know about the “not safe for work” nature of the video. This suffices.

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