American Kristallnacht


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It might have been an accident, or maybe it was because of the events of the past three months, but earlier this year I decided to finally read William Shirer’s masterpiece, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Previously I had only read the first few chapters in order to learn something about Hitler’s background. Now it was time to read the whole book.

I am only halfway through it but no matter. Every page has sent terror through my soul, as it appears to not be a history of the 1930s foolishness and madness that allowed a megalomaniac to become the leader of a powerful nation, intent on conquering the world while committing genocide against millions, but a news report of modern America.

What we have seen for the past three months — accelerated to madness with riots this week — has been nothing more than a return to the Nazi tactics of the 1930s, with the only difference being that the targets have not been just Jews, but all private businesses as well as anyone who dares to oppose their wanton destruction. In fact, the use of rocks to break windows and loot businesses and attack and even kill their owners this week was so reminiscent of Kristallnacht that I find it more than horrifying. From the link:

In the fall of 1938, Herschel Grynszpan (1921-45), a 17-year-old ethnically Polish Jew who had been living in France for several years, learned that the Nazis had exiled his parents to Poland from Hanover, Germany, where Herschel had been born and his family had lived for years. As retaliation, on November 7, 1938, the agitated teenager shot Ernst vom Rath (1909-38), a German diplomat in Paris. Rath died two days later from his wounds, and Hitler attended his funeral. Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945), the Nazi minister for public enlightenment and propaganda, immediately seized on the assassination to rile Hitler’s supporters into an anti-Semitic frenzy.

Kristallnacht was the result of that rage. Starting in the late hours of November 9 and continuing into the next day, Nazi mobs torched or otherwise vandalized hundreds of synagogues throughout Germany and damaged, if not completely destroyed, thousands of Jewish homes, schools, businesses, hospitals and cemeteries. Nearly 100 Jews were murdered during the violence. Nazi officials ordered German police officers and firemen to do nothing as the riots raged and buildings burned, although firefighters were allowed to extinguish blazes that threatened Aryan-owned property.

In the immediate aftermath of Kristallnacht, the streets of Jewish communities were littered with broken glass from vandalized buildings, giving rise to the name Night of Broken Glass.

Sound familiar? The act of a single person was used as an excuse to violently destroy the lives of many innocent people. The result was a pogrom, pushed by mobs of young jack-booted thugs in the employ of the Nazi Party.

This past week has been much the same. The unfortunate manhandling by police that led to the death of George Floyd has been used as an excuse now to violently destroy the lives of many innocent people. Except for the lack of pitchforks and torches the rioters and looters in cities across the United States have been no different than the mobs in Germany who attacked Jews and anyone they feared out of blind hate and ignorance.

And like Nazi Germany, this violence has been wielded as a tool by those in power in the Democratic Party to further their ends. Democratic elected officials in city after city have refused to take action, letting the rioting continue, while using that rioting as a weapon to attack their political opponents. To quote Joe Biden, that party’s candidate for President (at this moment),

The president of the United States must be part of the solution, not part of the problem,” the former vice president said Tuesday morning. “But this president today is part of the problem and accelerates it.”

Or consider the words of this Democratic Party high official:

The chairwoman of the Michigan Democratic Party dismissed every Trump supporter as “racist” and called them the “reason” black people are murdered in the United States. “If you support Donald Trump, you are a racist,” Lavora Barnes said in a statement posted to the group’s website. “Here is where it gets tricky and uncomfortable. Donald Trump is a racist, and if being a racist is not a dealbreaker for you, you are the reason Black people are being murdered for being Black.”

Rather than call for calm, Biden and Barnes both instead use the riots to slander Trump, while inciting race hatred that can only throw fuel on the fire. One might even think they are glad the riots are occurring, as it gives them this opportunity to blame Trump for them.

Yet, it doesn’t take much research to find that these rioters, many of whom have clearly claimed allegiance with the leftist terror-group Antifa, are closely tied with the Democratic Party. In fact, if you take a close look you can’t help wonder if this group of thugs is no more than the Democratic Party’s SS wing.

Yet, while this week has been in many ways a replay of Kristallnacht, not all things are the same. As Mark Twain noted, “History doesn’t repeat, it rhymes.” The differences from 1938 Nazi Germany are worth noting, as they suggest there still remains a window of hope that the decent people in America — Republican and Democrat and black and white — might still climb through in order to return to a free and just and lawful society.

First, unlike the Nazis, the Democratic Party does not now have a charismatic leader like Hitler. In fact, the entire leadership of the Democratic Party is bankrupt, made up of very old and weak incompetents who are incredibly unimpressive. This lack of a strong and coherent leader makes it difficult for them to harness the energy of their thuggish army to control events.

Second, the U.S., at least at this moment, is still a nation of laws. When Kristallnacht occurred in 1938, Germany was no longer a nation of laws. The Nazi Party was in full totalitarian control, with Hitler having sole power to unilaterally write, rewrite, and nullify any laws he wished. Thus, the looters and rioters who attacked Jewish businesses and killed Jews knew they would face no legal consequences for their violence. Hitler and the Nazi Party would protect them.

Today in the U.S. however the legal framework still exists to punish these thugs. We can still do it, and we had better do it, hard, or that legal framework will quickly fall like a house of cards.

Third, we are also still a democracy, for at least a little while. The election in 2020 will be a referendum on the events of the past three months, where Democratic leaders worked hard to oppress ordinary citizens while strongly supporting rioters, murderers, criminals, and looters. Will the voters take the proper action, and fire them all? They better, or this nation of laws will quickly fall to these fascist thugs, as it did in Germany in the early 1930s.

The responsibility for fixing this terrible situation now rests with the citizens of the United States. Will they demand a real change in government in 2020, firing the politicians who eagerly created the disaster of the past three months, or will they once again look the other way, and leave them in power?

If the former, we have a real chance for a renewal, using one of the most fundamental tools of modern civilization, the secret ballot, to reject such hateful violence. If the latter, we are now a nation that supports riots, looting, violence, oppression, and hate.

And it is that latter possibility that fills me with terror and despair. For consider the consequences of Kristallnacht in Germany:

The Nazis held the German-Jewish community responsible for the damage and imposed a collective fine of $400 million (in 1938 rates), according to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. Additionally, more than 30,000 Jewish men were arrested and sent to the Dachau, Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen concentration camps in Germany–camps that were specifically constructed to hold Jews, political prisoners and other perceived enemies of the Nazi state.

The distance between justice and genocide is never more than a short step, and needs only for people to do nothing in the face of evil.

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94 comments

  • Anon

    I’ve been listening to the audiobook of The Rise and Fall is the 3rd Reich as well over the last few months and I am also finding the parallels to be chilling.

  • mkent

    Thus, the looters and rioters who attacked Jewish businesses and killed Jews knew they would face no legal consequences for their violence. Hitler and the Nazi Party would protect them.

    And sometimes history doesn’t rhyme, it repeats. St. Louis has announced that all of the rioters that torched parts of the city Monday and Tuesday night have been released from jail without charge. This, even after four police officers were shot and a fifth one was killed (live on Facebook).

    Nazi officials ordered German police officers and firemen to do nothing as the riots raged and buildings burned…

    And in St. Louis, policemen actually helped looters safely exit ransacked buildings before sending them on their merry way without arrest.

    The Nazis held the German-Jewish community responsible for the damage and imposed a collective fine of $400 million (in 1938 rates), according to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. Additionally, more than 30,000 Jewish men were arrested and sent to the Dachau, Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen concentration camps in Germany–camps that were specifically constructed to hold Jews, political prisoners and other perceived enemies of the Nazi state.

    That seems to be the reason for blaming the riots on white supremacists. They can riot, burn out small business owners (the heart of the Republican party), blame it on the right, and then come down like a hammer on these “white supremacist” (read: Tea Party) organizations. Win-win-win-win.

    If the former, we have a real chance for a renewal, using one of the most fundamental tools of modern civilization, the secret ballot, to reject such hateful violence.

    I’m sorry Robert, but I think you’re being naive. The purpose of these riots is to do what the coronavirus couldn’t do — make major parts of the country too unsafe to hold physical elections. They will implement nationwide vote-by-mail so they can do to the whole country what they did to California in 2018. It’s looking increasingly doubtful that the election results and the will of the people will ever match up again.

    If I seem a little cynical, I just learned I’m going to have to drive through not one but two “protests” on my way home from work tonight.

  • Andrew_W

    Must be the first riots and lootings to happen in a Western country in 80 years.

  • Andrew_W

    Clearly the Dems are orchestrating the whole thing.
    Trump needs to call out the military, disbanded congress and cancel the elections to save the country.
    It’s the only way.

  • LocalFluff

    South Africa is another example of how quickly things can go awry with a civilized modern society.

    The only thing people, in Europe anyway, know of history is that Hitler killed the jews. You can stop anyone on the street and ask:
    “- What has happened?
    – Hitler killed the jews!”
    It’s not knowledge, it’s just an indoctrinated reflex.

    So it is of interest to learn about how random Hitler’s antisemitism was. He got the iron Cross during the first world war, recommended by his jewish officer. Not a single thing antisemitic is documented about him until the Versailles treaty was signed in 1919. And what upset him and all Germans (and German jews) was that they had to give away Ukraine, Poland, the Baltics that they had conquered and gotten in a peace treaty with Lenin, to the Soviet communists. That made the whole peace treaty look very suspicious and unreasonable.

    Jews got very well integrated in the German society during the 1800s after Napoleon’s forceful reforms for that purpose. In the first world war they fought as much for German victory as any ethnical German did. Many German jews had little sympathy with orthodox jews who refused to integrate as well as they had done. When Hitler talked about jews they thought that it’s not about me, but about them. I’m a patriot, I’ve fought for Germany, the government will never forget that. Well well well…

    The October revolution was arranged by the German government as a (very successful!) way to undermine an enemy government. And they used jewish connections to pull that coup off. So who was blamed for that? von Hindenburg? Not much.

    France and Russia were very antisemitic as the first world war started. That the Germans would become antisemitic was unforeseen. It was actually the jews who lost the first world war. Woodrow Wilson’s Versailles treaty (never ratified by the Senate!) nullifying the Brest-Litovsk peace being the major setback for the jews. And now I am very surprised by this imagined virus panicdemic. What could happen next? This is a very exiting show! The only thing I know for sure is that any government narrative will have the doomsday as its theme. Because many seem to be afraid to die and hope that their government is their God who will save them.

  • James Street

    How Sundance at The Conservative Treehouse thinks the swamp will play this:

    Tonight at 5:00pm former President Barack Obama will deliver remarks about race and social justice during a virtual town-hall sponsored by his “my brother’s keeper” initiative. Simultaneous to that announcement, George Floyd family attorney, Benjamin Crump, delivers remarks from Minneapolis about healing, race and social justice.

    All of the activist grievance leaders, in addition to the politicians, have been instructed to reign-in the protests in coordination with the 5:00pm Obama remarks. That timing allows the media to present the ‘healing Obama’ narrative; riots and looting stop etc.

    By the time the third funeral is held in Houston Texas, don’t be surprised to see Joe Biden, Barack Obama and George Bush together to give the political optic of unity and national healing based on race. The actual goal is far less about racial healing and more specifically about how to obtain political benefit and paint President Trump as the problem.
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/03/riots-cancelled-grievance-network-back-together-again-former-president-obama-and-floyd-family-attorney-ben-crump-now-execute-phase-two/

    How an anon on 8kun thinks our side should play this:

    We are witnessing cognitive dissonance on a massive scale. We were locked down and threatened with arrest for visiting friends or going to church. Left leaning social media berated anyone daring to stand for their rights and oppose these orders. Then a magic trick happened. A previously violent criminal committing a crime overdosed and died after being restrained. Did the knee on the neck for 9+ minutes contribute to his death? Most likely. Would he have died without being arrested, possibly. What happened? Left leaning social media and the MSM pushed a narrative that this man was murdered in cold blood. Protests were planned. This was the opportunity that Antifa and associated groups were waiting for. Under the cover of peaceful protestors, they activated their plan… Operation Civil Unrest was launched. They egged on protestors to get violent, they smashed windows, they handed out bricks, they encouraged looting, they threw molotov cocktails, they burnt down buildings, and they filmed it all. These videos were pushed out via social media and dem politicians and celebrities went to work. Providing funding, intelligence, and methods to avoid capture, detection, and arrest. Where did Covid-19 go? It is still here, but the politicians ignore it and support the protesting and rioting. How can anyone with a logical thought process not see that these are manufactured events to sink our economy, put people out of work, provide cover for wearing masks in public while rioting, destabilize our government, and foment rebellion. We are in the middle of an undeclared war with the leftist factions, MSM, and many of our politicians[D] involved. What should we do? Social media bots and bad actors are pushing us to intervene, but it is a trap. Never interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake. Let them burn their cities, let people see what a world with them in charge looks like. Look up they new follows of DJT’s Twitter accounts since this started, look at the Alexa rankings for thedonald.win since this started, look at the “this chaos has redpilled me” posts on halfchan… We win this stage of the war by doing nothing and allowing the authorities handle it. People will see where and how order is restored. NYC used national guard to enforce stay at home for Covid, but refuses to employ them to stop their city from getting destroyed. People will see this and get organically redpilled. Push these points on social media and your in person social groups. This is the phase where we gather new recruits. Once you get redpilled, you are redpilled forever. A lot of these people jumping to support the chaos are jumping on social trends and are easily swayed. We push red pills and recruit them when they swing our way. We fight online during this stage, keep your head down IRL, keep your powder dry, and fight to spread the truth in this phase. Do NOT do anything stupid like go to these protests to engage or get violent. That is what they want to push their next phase of the operation. If you go out to the protests, blend in and document EVERYTHING. If they cannot get us to give them ammo to launch the next phase, they will attempt a false flag. Keep your eyes open, head on a swivel, and wits about you. Stay safe out there anons, we are counting on you.

  • wayne

    James Street –
    Interesting stuff.

    Q: I understand Floyd’s toxicology screen was positive for fentanyl and methamphetamine, can anyone confirm or deny that alleged factoid?

  • wayne

    Mr. Z.,
    If you have 3 hours handy, I recommend “Hitler: The Rise of Evil,” a 2003 Canadian mini-series.

    https://youtu.be/yMVy8_98I-o
    1:28:50

  • Ray Van Dune

    I read TRAFOTTR many years ago, and so I had forgotten many of the parallels you cite. They are indeed chilling, and what follows is not intended to reduce their potential import for us. But thankfully here are also things about TRAFOTTR that reflect a fundamental difference between America and post-great-war Germany that should give us a little comfort.

    Even with a decent education in a private high school and college before they all went to hell, I still bought into the standard liberal mythology about Hitler – that he tricked his way into power because the Germans were suffering from the punitive Treaty of Versailles inflicted on them by the victorious Allies. The United States (Wilson) was portrayed as ineffectually dissenting from the punishment of Germany, by the way. Shirer thoroughly demolishes this fantasy.

    He makes it clear (as I recall it) that Germany was by long-accustomed nature a racist and militaristic society that fell quite willingly into Hitler’s embrace! As I read Shirer’s vivid description of the inter-war Germans, it was evident to me that they were not, and had probably never been, people who could embrace the pluralistic ideals that “educated” Americans wished upon them in their pre-Hitler days!

    So I came away from reading TRAFOTTR (20 years ago) feeling a sense of surety that America could never devolve into a totalitarian state. I am admittedly not quite so confident now, but I urge you to finish Shirer’s exposition before giving up on us.

  • wayne: I’d rather spend those three hours reading. I have found repeatedly that the visual medium is a poor way to find out much about past historical events. They too often have to cater their narrative to fit the visuals available, or stage visuals. In both cases this causes serious distortions to leak in. This is especially true of WWII, as much took place in secret that was only uncovered when the Nazi archives were captured at the end of the war.

    Better to read what the players actually wrote and said, and did.

  • Cloudy

    There are better parallels than this. One has to remember that Weimar Republic Germany could have easily become a Communist state. The communists had just as many followers for a long time and were just as violent. Here, the lawlessness is mostly one sided, if one cuts through the BS claims that these riots are non-ideological. Yes, militia type groups are mostly right wing (despite their equally BS claims) but are just talk except in a very few well publicized incidents. The vast bulk of political street crime is done by leftists. More and more people are starting to realize this. In time, the riots will probably wither and die. I hope I’m right on this.
    This is what I hope I’m wrong about. The America of old, enterprising and full of vitality, will be gone soon. It has always only existed in select parts of the United States. When chased out of one part of the land, it flees to another and thrives. But sooner or later it will not be possible to move from Silicon Valley to Austin. Or from Detroit to the Research Triangle in North Carolina. The sheer reach of bureaucracy aided by technology will crush it.
    Our fate will not be that of Nazi Germany. At best it will be that of Imperial China, a very advanced civilization and not the worst place to live at many points in its long history – but unable to live out it’s full potential. At worst it will be that of many former Spanish colonies in our part of the world. We will have some form of paper Democratic government but violent confrontations between left and right, kleptocracy and populism, etc. will make it irrelevant. We may still have the legal foundation of liberty, but without a proper cultural foundation it will mean nothing. Not the Third Reich but a banana republic.

  • sippin_bourbon

    My personal opinion:
    This was planned. They just needed the right event. There were several events that came and went, and I was surprised there was no large scale anger. The black jogger in GA. The black paramedic shot in her home on KY. Both horrid events. Justice was delayed, and yet, nothing from the usual groups.

    They needed the right event. And the cop with 18 prior accusations of misconduct putting a knee on his neck, killing him, was the right trigger. The mobilization was fast, and very coordinated.

    It’s dragging on, and just as rioters (not the protestors, two different groups), have been working to provoke police further, certain governors are neglecting to restore order to provoke the President. They DESPERATELY need to be able to say, ” Look! He called out the Army on black protestors!”. They need this to show ” orange man bad”. Polls were showing rising support among blacks for Trump, that must be stopped at all costs.

    We are witnessing that cost. Burning cities. People and police shot. Increased racial division.

    The media is 100% complicit. For much of the last two years they had lost control of the narrative. The collapse of impeachment was the final blow. They had no narrative any more. But protests, riots? This is their song. They know this tune, and can play it well. They have seized it back. Because there is nothing more important to them than ending this administration.

  • Ken

    Sippin_bourbon,

    I think this is all about November. Russia failed, impeachment failed, pandemic failed. As a matter of fact, huge data dumps severely damaging to Obama & Biden coming out. Desperate times… desperate measures.

    It’s chilling what they’re willing to do to regain power. The media is a willing arm of the anarchists, the dnc a willing partner.

    The other night was the only time in my 57yrs that I made sure my firearms were accessible & ready.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Tho they call themselves anti-fascist, their behavior is anything but.

    In this respect, your analogy is spot on. Antifa in the role of the SA.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Ken.

    Keep your head down and your powder dry.

  • Phill O

    Ken My thoughts exactly on the three failures.

    Initially, when Donald Trump was elected President, these riots would happen then. The dims immediately set the Russia hoax in motion before he was sworn in. One could see a lower strategy here after the three failures.

  • Phill O

    Wayne Watch out for anything from Canadian media. Trudeau has bought the TV news, and anything from the CBC is pure fiction. I refer especially to their documentary on the Canadian Everest expedition of 1982. They had the names correct and the dates and the fact that an avalanche killed some. The rest was absolute pure fiction. I new some of the climbers personally.

  • LocalFluff

    A common thought is that if it only gets a bit worse, everyone will suddenly come to their senses and things will turn around. I don’t see that at all happening, not anytime anywhere in history. What happens is that things get worse, then they get even more worse. When there is a reaction, it is completely out of control and unpredictably destructive.

    The only thing i read nowadays are select papers when I want to get a bit deeper into something. And a few news articles. There are so many lectures available online that they just outcompete all books and TV documentaries (which are half fictional, if nothing else in their dramatized format). Here’s for example some museum that has produced lots of lectures about the first world war to the 100 year commemoration:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/NationalWWIMuseum/videos

    Woodrow Wilson belonged to the first generation to get a PhD in the US. His strategy was well educated, but failed miserably. Splitting up Eastern Europe into tiny states based on an idealistic idea of one race one country made German revanchists realize that they, even after the peace treaty, could easily dominate more of Europe than ever before thanks to their economic strength and the many conflicting nationalities in small state Eastern Europe. Ribbentrop’s continental foreign policy was a strategic master piece. But the Germans had no idea about what to do with the UK, the US, Japan, China. The war got much larger than they had expected.

    History teaches us that things go out of hand. No one is able to control the events that will become history. The outbreak of WW1 is the perfect example. So very well planned and prepared, then immediately it all got stuck. Generals, now out of ideas, cautiously suggested (risking accusations of being unpatriotic) that perhaps we could go back to how it was before, and try this another day, because this didn’t look like the glorious Napoleonic battles they had expected. But already during the first weeks more soldiers had died than during 20 years of Napoleonic wars. Local papers had pages of names of young men killed, from the readers own neighborhood. It was in England called “The Morning Hate” to read about it and get angry, demanding eternal war as revenge. It was a popular democratic demand that the war had to be fought until total victory, too much had already been lost for anything else to be acceptable. So commanders and statesmen could not end the war. It was democratically impossible. They had to pretend that one day we will have the Endsieg and that will make all sacrifices worthwhile.

    Four years later apathy was the dominating mindset. In 1918 sixteen year old Austrians were mobilized to mass grave yards from the first year of the war, when soldiers were still burried in their uniforms. Given a shovel and the order:
    “- Find one your size!”

  • wayne

    Enemy At The Gates
    https://youtu.be/KMjYNKED0U0
    1:21

    “… one out of two gets a rifle; one without follows him, the one with the rifle shoot, when the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots…”

  • LocalFluff

    @wayne
    Military training in five seconds. all you need to know. The movie clip is however not historically correct. They wear clothes, this was not always the case. Imagine the billionaire socialists who founded and leads Antifa organizing their kind of guys, and what that would lead to. That’s the Soviet Union of ww2 (and the European Union of today).

  • Florida Vermont

    I’ve been calling this savagery American Kristallnacht. TY for the historical validation.

  • sippin_bourbon

    “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    The enemy:
    https://www.projectveritas.com/news/antifa-practice-things-like-an-eye-gouge-it-takes-very-little-pressure-to/

    To be sure, I think the misnamed “antifa” is just the tip of the iceberg. People with a desire to take down this country from within have been here for sometime.

    Know yourself:
    Well, that is on you. We may all be facing a gut check in the future. Then again again, maybe not. I am not calling for anything. But if it comes, will you be ready ( this is a rhetorical question, I am not looking for your actually answers, because your answer matters to yourself, not me.)

  • Brendan

    Ray
    I hate to say it but America is extremely uneducated. See all the little campus questioneers waters does on Fox.

    Worse, the Democrat fixation on race and this gender idiocy is in many ways worse than old fashion racism. the current progressive agenda has shocking parallels with the Nazis that your garden variety small town racist never had.

    I said earlier that a national divorce might be in order but the other alternative is a true Federalism. Defund the federal government and let individual states run themselves as they will. It is the overwhelming power of the Federal Government that makes every national election such high stakes.

    Devolve the powers and funds back to the states and only fund a few basic federal departments, spread throughout the US. Only fund DoD.

    But that won’t happen either. Divorce, Federalism. Neither will satisfy these people who not only want to tell you how to live but how to think

    I will not take a knee – I now to no man or woman – only God. I am a citizen and I will look any black person in the eye and give them the respect of listening and discussing. But I’m not “privileged” because I focused in school and worked hard. That’s a path available to anyone.

  • Cotour

    I have read and am a student of Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu is all about strategy.

    I just finished a sign for my window:

    WARNING
    THIS PROPERTY WILL BE DEFENDED
    ENTER ILLEGALLY AT YOUR OWN RISK
    * HAVE A NICE DAY :)

  • m d mill

    Murder is any killing committed purposely and knowingly, manslaughter is any killing committed as a result of recklessness, and negligent homicide is any killing resulting from negligence.
    The death of G Floyd was not “murder” (even by the special Minnesota “third” degree murder definition), but almost certainly criminal manslaughter of some degree.
    There is no evidence that this was racially motivated, but if so there is just legal recourse by the black Attorney General of Minnesota, and many other elected and unelected officials.
    There is evidence this was motivated by resistance to arrest or detainment (both verbal and video).
    G Floyd (the convicted armed robber and ex-bouncer) would be alive if he had not resisted detainment, which was the original criminal recklessness.
    Police officers do not want to precipitate violence or other hassles during detainment or arrest…they want it easy and smooth, but they cannot and must not let the suspects win the struggle.

    For reference: (U.S. 2016)
    Black on black murders =2500 per year
    white on black murders =240
    black on white murders = 530
    white on white murders = 2800
    see:
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

    Antifa, Black Lives (only) Matter, and all the rioters and demonstrators are not acting out of concern for murder of Negro people, but because of their own racist or racialist predisposition, irresponsibility, inadequacy, and in many cases a simple sociopathic desire to loot and destroy when possible. Good, responsible people in the U.S. support the police generally, and the difficult job they try to do…but then good, responsible people also do not resist police detainment (even if the officer is on rare occasion overbearing), act with respect, and are not sociopathically violent. Good, responsible people are not rioting OR demonstrating/obstructing in this case, because this case is not a worthy cause for such extremism.

    Black on black murders =2500 per year
    white on black murders =240
    black on white murders = 530

  • sippin_bourbon

    You keep copy and pasting the same screed on differing conversations.
    It is becoming spam.

  • sippin_bourbon
  • m d mill

    Sincere thanks for the brilliant (she always is) Candice Owens video link.
    I will add the link with the other updates to my “screed” when ever this Floyd/rioting subject comes up in a new BTB article if it is appropriate commentary…some things are worth repeating. If you don’t want it don’t read it.

  • m d mill: While I agree that some things bear repeating, simply cutting and pasting is not productive. I’d rather you didn’t do it. People will simply stop reading. You need to restate your point freshly each time, though cutting and pasting the statistics is certainly valid.

  • My suggestion is to expand your reading list and try to understand the protests and violence within an American historical context. Public protests and violence go all the way back to Boston during the colonial period. Even before the Boston Massacre in 1770. There have been peaceful protests, riots and police violence throughout our history. Racism and discrimination has existed for 400 years since the first slave ship arrived in Virginia in 1619. There are real issues here that the country must grapple with.

    The scariest part of this whole situation has been Trump threatening to send active duty troops into cities. There are strict laws governing the use of troops in domestic situations. They exist for good reasons. Why the commander-in-chief of an all-volunteer military would consider it is baffling. Does he want to alienate would-be recruits for a generation? That could be the result if there are deaths resulting from it.

    Trump is a would-be autocrat. He thinks as president he can do whatever he wants. He has said this publicly. He also thinks he can send the military in to U.S. cities and do whatever he wants. Trump said that the other day. If you’re worried about tyranny, about fascism, you really need to focus on Trump. Mattis is right. Our republic is at stake here.

  • Douglas Messier wrote, “My suggestion is to expand your reading list…”

    Please don’t insult me. You haven’t the faintest idea what my knowledge and background in American and world history is. In fact, by this very statement you demonstrate that you’ve never even opened any of my space histories, or looked at their bibliographies. You might find one or two books there about both American history and 20th century history you haven’t even heard of.

    I am also sure you haven’t the slightest idea that I have masters in early American colonial history, but no matter, what your comment really comes down to is the typical leftist response whenever anyone writes anything a leftist disagrees with: There is no need to consider what that writer has said, even for a second. That writer must be an ignorant hick.

  • sippin_bourbon

    There were slaves imported before 1619, despite what the NYT has printed.

    The regular army has been called out to quell riots before. In fact, there is a specific law for it, mentioned often in the news. It’s called the insurrection act. It is a specific exception to Posse Comitatus. It has been used many times, the most recent in 1992 in LA. Perhaps expand your reading.

    “Racism and discrimination..400 years, blah blah blah…” Bigotry in various forms, is part of the human condition. An outgrowth of envy and pride. All humans, regardless of the color of their skin, have the capacity for Bigotry. The belief the only one group in the US is responsible for all the bigotry is sophomoric.

    “Trump thinks, Trump believes” whatever. I never presume to know someone else’s thoughts. Assigning evil motivations to someone else in order to claim the moral high ground is again, sophomoric.

    The POTUS has told the governors to use their National Guard assets to restore order, only threatening to use the insurrection act if they fail. The ball is in their court, under the Federal system, to act, and this negate the need for the Insurrection Act. Perhaps your anger should be directed at their foot-dragging. That does not sound like someone who thinks he can do anything.

    I could go on all morning. Your post just reeks of error.

  • wayne

    sippin_bourbon-
    Good stuff.

    Minor quibble— Bush utilized the Insurrection Act after 9-11. Can’t find a link handy, but if I recall correctly, the Insurrection Act was implemented at least 7 different times in the 20th century.

  • wayne

    Correction:
    6 President’s invoked the Insurrection Act and/or federalized the National Guard, in the past 100+/- years.

    Woodrow Wilson- race riots in Chicago (and 20 other cities)
    Herbert Hoover- WW1 Bonus Army
    Harry Truman- striking railroad workers
    Dwight Eisenhower-Little Rock 9 and integration in Alabama
    George Bush the elder- LA riots
    George Bush the younger- after 9-11 (active duty military at airports & other key locations)

    Holy cow…. somebody call me, The Doctor!

    “Dr. Trump”
    Louder with Crowder
    May 2019
    https://youtu.be/aQgMQCjfkKA
    3:13

  • wayne

    “Why No One Talks about George Floyd’s Criminal History…”
    Louder With Crowder
    June 4, 2020
    https://youtu.be/-ytQaMDkuuU
    4:02

    So, who hasn’t heard that Floyd was on Fentanyl and methamphetamine?

  • wayne

    Jordan Peterson
    “Carry Your Cross”
    (excerpted from: “Freedom Of Speech & Political Correctness” 2017)
    https://youtu.be/-IejKIjC6hw
    10:41

  • Douglas Messier

    Bob:

    All i meant was that your frame of reference is wrong. Try understanding this in terms of America’s own unique history of oppressing minorities. Kristallnacht was government sanctioned violence against a minority. Protesters are demonstrating against govt sanction violence against minorities.

    Bourbon sipper: Trump has said he has absolute authority multiple times. That should scare people.

    ,

  • Cotour

    Douglas Messier:

    I tend to agree with your first point.

    However to your second point, Trump stating that he has “the absolute authority multiple times”. Which is true, is only Trump pushing / encouraging governors, specifically blue state governors who are unclear where their lines of fiduciary responsibilities begin and end to restore order in the streets. Trump has not overstepped his authority nor has he abused his power that I can detect. Trump is transmitting that if things are allowed to spiral too far out of hand by these state governors that he will indeed do what must be done, take care of business and restore order in the streets. Which ultimately is his responsibility.

    Chaos and fear can not reign and the Left among us in politics are attempting to leverage chaos in the streets into a 2020 Trump defeat. And like I have pointed out many times here this strategy will only serve to reveal them for their partisan and politically self interested purposes, and many of them will be replaced by the people who are doing the hiring. From the “P” word tapes, to the Mueller investigation, to impeachment, to Corona virus Communist Chinese bat soup contagion, to George Floyd demonstrations and chaos and rioting all will IMO prove to be failed Democrat leadership attempts to remove the one man that is the real existential threat to them, the Chinese and all the rest of them.

    (Trump, one man, one quirky, not so little, ego maniacle but focused and determined American man is a real world existential problem for them all.)

    A threat of action is not proof of action, and that action, although extreme in extreme times is not proof of the abuse of power that you suggest. I think Trump is the least likely president to abuse his power, and all presidents have the potential to look to abuse their power. And that is specifically what the Constitution was structured to counter balance.

    (All is well regarding yesterday where I am.)

  • Douglas Messier: My frame of reference is based not only on a very deep and life-long study of history, but on personal experience, both as a Jew (who lost relatives in the Holocaust), but as an intelligent, thoughtful writer who has been repeatedly blackballed by the Democratic liberal community that dominates our intellectual society for refusing to go along with the accepted wisdoms of that Democratic liberal community. How tolerant of them.

    Your frame of reference appears consistently to be “Orange Man Bad” in all cases, no matter what. Like almost every single Democrat I’ve ever met my entire life, almost without fail, you are always, always skeptical of any Republican or conservative (something I do think is reasonable) but never, never skeptical of any Democrat or liberal. I repeat, never. You are thus incredibly blind and partisan, and your comments here reveal it clearly.

    But then, I am wasting my breath. You will dismiss what I say. You will not consider for a second that I might have a point, or that maybe, just maybe, you have put too much faith in one political party.

    Go ahead, vote for Joe Biden. You will get what you deserve. The terrifying part for me, as a Jew and a conservative, is that I might also get what you deserve.

  • sippin_bourbon

    “That should scare people”. Interesting.

    “I have a pen and a phone” -Barack Obama.

    Anything can be taken out of context.

    Trump was referring to certain actions with regards to a the Pandemic and re-opening the economy. At the same time pushing Governors to take the lead within their states (FEDERALISM; which he had been doing since the beginning of the pandemic). He also later backed-off the “total authority” comment. But don’t let that get in the way of your “Orange Man Bad” rant. (By the way, the POTUS does have absolute authority of some matters in government, so I do not know what other “claims” you are referring to.)

    People are saying he his “language” is bad for calling rioters (not protesters) thugs was “divisive”.
    President Obama called the rioters in Baltimore thugs and criminals in a public address in 2015.
    Guess what, they are both correct. Rioters are thugs. Looters are thieves. All engaged in such activities are criminals.

    His language telling Govs and Mayors to dominate the rioters was said to be “disturbing”. So what. So is the extensive vandalism, looting, assault and murder. He is correct. Some of these Govs are more worried about their voter base then doing their jobs. That should scare you.

    The POTUS attitude is different then giving “room to destroy” (-Baltimore mayor in 2015), or describing the looting and vandalism as an acceptable consequence (-almost every broadcaster on TV) because it’s “just property”. No! There is no justification for these actions.

    They want to claim that Trump is condemning everyone on the street. He is not. He has been clear about the difference (see his full comments from the Rose Graden on 6/1). He has been clear that police brutality that started this (very coordinated) out break was wrong and the the Floyd family deserves justice. But if you don’t want to see or hear that, because you are too busy blaming him for everything, then you won’t see or hear it.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Look, you don’t like Trump. Okay I get it. But I will not agree to people that rant as if he is the personification of all that is wrong with the country. He did not launch a pandemic. He is not trying to start a “race war” as I have seen people claim. And he obviously did not coordinate with Russia to win an election. He is not in congress with the devil.

    I also did not blame Barack Obama for every evil that befell America. I moved beyond “R” and “D” and the perpetual outrage machines a long time ago. I have learned to see the good and bad things that each leader has done, and recognize it as such. Your statements are simply part of that outrage machine, and I will not accept it.

    I would suggest you watch Ms Owen’s video (linked previously in an earlier post). She is far more to the point than I can ever be.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Cotour

    Good to hear. Glad your safe.

    “A threat of action is not proof of action, and that action, although extreme in extreme times is not proof of the abuse of power that you suggest.”

    Very well said.
    Many presidents have threatened many things.
    Many have been forced to walk back or clarify language later. This is common.
    But in today’s “gotcha” political-media mess, that does not matter.
    The line between news, facts, opinions and speculation has been blurred beyond belief.
    I turned off the TV news channels (all of them) long ago.
    Everything that claims to be a news source must be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism, because they have all let their personal agenda’s get in the way.

  • sippin_bourbon

    “Go ahead, vote for Joe Biden. You will get what you deserve. The terrifying part for me, as a Jew and a conservative, is that I might also get what you deserve.”

    I think the unspoken truth here is that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for his Vice President.
    Joe is showing signs of dementia. G. W. Bush may have stumbled with language, but Biden appears to stumble on thought process. He may have been a good politician (oxymoron anyone?) at one time, but I think age is taking it’s toll. When he is fresh and its early in a speech, or other appearance, he seems okay. However, if it is a longer interview or speech, you can see the change. If elected, I have doubts he will finish a term. So look carefully at the VP he chooses. That person will be president.

    Like 2016, this election is the Dem’s to lose. Their candidate should have had a cake walk. But the party blew it, by accepting Hillary’s “anointment” as the nominee. Will Biden repeat this?

  • Douglas Messier

    Trump thinks the Constitution lets him do anything you wants.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl_gO3uOds8

    When you hear a president say that, his threats to send the military in becomes a very scary thing. Throw in his admiration of autocrats like Putin and other leaders, and you realize that he is more threatening than previous presidents who invoked the insurrection act.

    Bob: I’m merely suggesting that America’s racial problems and history are unique and very different from Germany’s history. The Kristallnacht analogy simply doesn’t fit very well. I wish you wouldn’t take that point personally.

  • Douglas Messier: Yup, America had racism and bigotry, totally unique in all human history. The Germans meanwhile were all loving, especially to the Jews.

    You don’t think the Kristallnacht analogy doesn’t fit well. So be it. I think it fits perfectly, and that you refuse to see the parallels strengthens my conclusion, since the biggest problem in fighting the Nazis in the 1930s was the inability of people who understood them (like Churchill) to get others (like Chamberlain) to believe them. The result is that Hitler increasingly grew in strength until it was practically impossible to beat him.

    There is evil abound in America, and the bulk of it is in not being pushed by Donald Trump. He might be crude, but only in the minds of Democratic partisans is he a future Hitler, even as they back a party that is rift with anti-Semites and people who define everything everywhere by race. Which to me is the actual definition of a bigot.

  • You should also read this op-ed by Daniel Pipes, a very determined NeverTrumper during the 2016 election whose opinion of Trump then and now matches closely with mine.

    I doubt you will however. You are like most Democrats, obsessed with what Trump says, especially on Twitter, totally unaware even now after four years that he uses that tool almost exclusively to manipulate you more than anything. I pay little attention to his blather there, but pay very close attention to what he actually does. As Pipes notes,

    I have come to understand the wisdom in Salena Zito’s September 2016 witticism about Trump that “the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.” Or, as Daniel Larison notes, “We need to judge Trump by his actions and not his words.”

    .

    You might benefit by doing that. But then, why should you? You are getting this suggestion from a conservative (either me or Pipes), and thus what we say is irrelevant and not to be taken seriously.

    So you understand my anger, you must realize that I now feel personally threatened by the left. It is no longer merely arguing its point loudly. It is not only using the blacklist to attack its opponents (as it has done with me), it is now using violence, including rioting and looting, to gain its ends. And as in the 1930s, it has your blind support.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Again, anyone can quote out of context.

    He was referring to his legal authority to fire Mueller.

    “Look, Article II, I would be allowed to fire Robert Mueller. Assuming I did all of the things, I said I want to fire him. Number one, I didn’t. He wasn’t fired. Number one, very importantly but more importantly, Article II allows me to do whatever I want. Article II would allow me to fire him. I wasn’t going to fire him. You know why — because I watched Richard Nixon firing everybody and that didn’t work out too well.”
    -D Trump.

    And yes, he DOES HAVE THAT AUTHORITY. It is absolute. Smart to do? No. And he did not do it.

    The fact that you buy into this kind of crap, and shows you need to broaden your scope a bit.

    The 10USC Chapter 13 (insurrection act) has been used by MANY Presidents, as stated before. Democrats were infuriated when it was used to let 9 black students enter school (used by Ike).

    If incompetent governors refuse to restore order in their States, allow the continued vandalism, looting, assaults, arson and murder on the streets, then the Insurrection Act is both legal and appropriate.

    If on the other hand, they get their collective acts together, it is will be unnecessary. It is the governors’ refusal to act that is driving us to the brink. Not the President. He has stated what his options are in hopes of motivating them to do the right thing.

    So, sorry, it does not matter how many out of context quotes you provide, and claims of unique American racism you try to make, I will not succumb to the outrage machine.

  • Douglas Messier

    Trump said the other day he could send in troops to cities and do whatever he wanted. He has said similar things in other situations. His admiration for autocrats is unbounded. He is an autocrat.

    Bob, I don’t know what else to say. Trump manipulates everything and everyone? Do tell. Next thing you’ll tell me he lies pathologically. You don’t say. He also stole from his own charity. Yes we do judge him by hus actions. He is wholly corrupt.

    I don’t know how to get people to unblackball you. Many people find your view extreme. You take criticism extremely personally (see above when I suggested viewing the situation differently). And you shout people down and talk over them instead of listening (almost any Space Show appearance). And this blog is largely frequented by people who agree with you.

  • Cotour

    Yes, actions over words. The opposite is absolutely true of most all of the last 5 American presidents, they were just go along to get along types. Trump actually knows what he wants and actually moves with speed and determination towards it. Just like in his business career. Results are the only thing that pays the bills in the real world. Professional politicians inhabit a non reality world located mainly in Washington D.C.

    I have to tell you that I never listen to or sit down, other than the state of the Union speech, to much of anything that Trump says. His speech is in many ways so simple and repetitive and that to me is his internal savant brain conversation that is revealed to the world. Its part of his super power if you will, repetition. It makes me uneasy.

    The two things I tell everyone who comes to me and ask questions about what is going on in the world and politics. 1. Stop watching broad cast and cable news, it is not designed to inform you it is design to enrage you and “Program” you. And 2. Never listen to Trump delivering a prepared speech. Watch him at a rally, he is funny as hell and he can go right to the heart of things and connect to real people.

    What is the thing to watch is what Trump actually does. For instance, have you heard of any Iranian speed boats harassing our Navy any more in the gulf? Not after he Tweeted “If they continue to harass you blow them out of the water”. I have not heard of one incidence since that day. No other president would ever do such.

    JUST ONE MORE INDICATOR OF A MASSIVE TRUP VICTORY?

    Here it is revealed that neither Romney nor George Bush jr. will be supporting Trump in the coming election for president in 2020.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/vote-for-trump-these-republican-leaders-arent-on-the-bandwagon/ar-BB158wRf

    First of all, Mitt Romney only looks presidential, he has demonstrated over and over in the past years just how worthless and ineffective he in reality is. Romney? I would think that Trump would shun his endorsement. Romney is a back stabbing self serving “Moralist” weasel of the first order, a RINO at the minimum.

    And George Bush jr.? Not really an endorsement that really means anything to Trump. Remember how Trump made jr.s brother look like a little boy in the primaries? Where he garnered I think 1 electoral vote? Bush jr. was a president who was just fulfilling other much bigger men’s agendas if you ask me. Dick Chenny, the dark lord, was the man who was just continuing the Neo Con agenda in the middle east and Bush was just the name on the bill board. Bush’s father G. Bush sr. was a player, a man of agenda, but not the son IMO. And remember, don’t screw with the dark lord.

    So Bush jr. and Romney are not going to support Trump in 2020? Just one more asset to Trump IMO. As long as Trump remains where he is and actually leading, like with the Chinese, like with installing Conservative judges, like up holding the Constitution, his base will never abandon him.

    And that being said, Joe Biden will be the alternative? Good luck with that Democrat leadership. No, in my opinion the more the Democrats and their media flunkies make noise the better Trump is doing his job. And they are making lots and lots of noise. JGL

  • sippin_bourbon

    “Trump said the other day he could send in troops to cities and do whatever he wanted.”

    No he didn’t. He said he would if he has to, adding that he does have the authority. I told you what law it is. Go read it. He has the legal authority if they govs fail to act.

    “His admiration for autocrats is unbounded.”

    You pretend to know who he admires now?

    “Trump manipulates everything and everyone?”

    Really? Does he have psychic mind powers? There seem to be a large number of people that disagree with him, so your absolute statement appears to be in error.

    All politicians have bent the truth. If you think only “the other side ” does, then you are part of the problem. Period. Try getting out of your apparent. Seek statements in context. Do not rely on others to tell you what happens, seek the info. It is hard at first, and takes effort. But you will see how all MSM outlets are lying.

    As for your comments aimed at Robert. I actually disagree with him on some things. But I enjoy spirited but HONEST debate and discussion.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Darn out correct… Try getting out of your apparent shell.

  • Cotour

    I thought you were going for “Apartment”.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Trump: ” maybe I will fore Mueller”. He teases about this for weeks. The media goes nuts analyzing. Meanwhile he appoints more consecutive judges faster than previous admins.

    This is called being a “shrewd politician”. You can call it manipulation I you like.

    Obama’s admin did the same kind of work. They called it ” Flooding the zone”.

    In both cases they used the MSM’s hunger to fill the 24/7 news cycle against itself.

    And it works because they know many will drink the koolaid.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Cotour

    Do you feel the wave has past for now, or do you expect further issues?

  • Cotour

    The virus or the protests?

  • sippin_bourbon

    Not the protests. The protests do not cause damage.

    The riots.

  • wayne

    Andrew_W–
    The Washington Post?

  • Edward

    Douglas Messier,
    America’s unique history of oppressing minorities?

    I think you mean the Democrats’s history of oppressing minorities. Jackson and his Trail of Tears, slavery was in the Democrat south, the KKK was comprised of Democrats, Jim Crow laws were created by Democrats, FDR put Americans with Japanese ancestors into concentration camps. LBJ opposed civil rights until he realized that resisting it and that overt racism were no longer politically practical, so he decided to change strategies and would, as he said, “have those [N-word]s voting Democratic for two hundred years” by pretending to be on their side but keeping them down in more subtle ways — which came to pass. (Getting them to riot every few years is an insidious way to make them look violent, discrediting them, with the added “benefit” of getting them to destroy their own neighborhoods and businesses.)

    Other countries have also oppressed minorities in similar ways, so the Democrats’s oppression is hardly unique. Nazi Germany is one example, and they got even worse as time went on, with their “final solution.” Oops. Democrats insist on abortion, which is used disproportionately by minorities.

    Protesters are demonstrating against govt sanction violence against minorities.

    What government actually sanctions violence against minorities? What, exactly, are these sanctions? Indeed, we have heard elected Democrats praise or be apologists for these riots, which sounds like sanctioning violence.

  • Cotour

    The violence and destruction nation wide will have to dial down, it just won’t be stood for. But the George Floyd issue and these examples of abuse of power will live a long while, at least until the next person of color is in some way abused by an authority and they move on that that. And they are not going to give up their momentum so valid demonstrations will continue, but the violence and the looting will be dealt with if it continues. There is a fine line even in Blue states where this violence is occurring, if it is allowed to continue then the people will demand action and order and incompetents like DeBlasio and Cuomo will suffer politically if they refuse to do what must be done. And I assume that if a real hard line was taken the violence and looting would go away quickly. Arrest the trouble makers and keep them in jail for at least 30 days. Or someone like Wayne would suggest rendering them to Guantanamo. Might be just the vacation that would do them some good. Good old Wayne, the 6 PSI man.

    The radical organizers are making hay while they can.

    And as far as my personal situation where I am I really do not expect anything. What had me and the rest of my community cranked up was that one of the organizers of this local protest stated that he was ANTIFA in a Tweet to the president. If I had not seen that Tweet that someone sent to me that he sent to the president I would not have reacted like I did and close down for the day and assume battle stations. (It would have been like Rube Goldberg, the Three Stooges and William Wallace meet ANTIFA)

    That local young man IMO made a bad mistake in that statement aligning himself with ANTIFA, he has now discredited all of his traditional local political associations. And how he digs himself out of that remains to be seen. He and a couple of his friends are a wanna be political players, and he is just not and never will be.

  • wayne

    Edward-
    Good stuff.
    ref: “the Democrat’s history of oppressing minorities” (the list is endless, is it not!?!)
    —even after the Civil War, the democrat party continued to rebel against the union and worked diligently to undo all the gains (hard fought) accomplished. (1865 to the advent of the ‘progressive era,’ is particularly bizzaro)
    Wilson was particularly dictatorial, and it was FDR who “rounded up” American’s of Japanese descent. (and let us not even mention the holocaust-denying, Stalin-loving, New York Times, for the last 100(+/-) years. )

  • Douglas Messier

    When I said unique, I meant that the American experience with these problems are specific to this country. They are not the same as those experienced in Europe. I never meant that other countries aren’t racist. That would be totally stupid. You really believed that’s what I meant? We need to understand what is happening today in the larger context of our nation’s struggles over the centuries and what has occurred in the past. Saying Kristallnacht adds little to the discussion.

    Also, what I meant is government sanctioned violence under color of authority. Police have abused suspects in custody and claimed that what they’re doing is legal. Trump has encouraged them to rough up people they’re arresting. That issue is real as we’ve seen, it particularly affects minority communities, and that is what the protest is about.

  • pzatchok

    America is NOT that racist.

    How many non African nations have elected a black leader?

    And NEVER ever say that someone can not be racist because they are a minority. They are just as human an anyone else is and thus just as full of weaknesses as the rest of us.

    As far as I know we no longer have any laws on the books singling out minorities. If there are please point them out.
    And as for government sanctioned violence, do you really mean government sanctioned counter violence, like what was normally used against the violent protesters?

    As for police officers not being investigated and or disciplined fast enough put at least a little of that blame of their fine Democrat supporting unions.

    I do think we need an independent auditing/investigating office. Legally allowed to investigate ANY government worker. No enforcement power. Just investigators passing on any evidence and statements gathered to the appropriate agency. These people themselves must also pass background checks and be educated in any department policies they are investigating.

    And quite frankly I for one am tired of being called a racist for not saying the right thing or even nothing at all.
    I for one will NEVER apologize for what you or anyone think my great grand father did 200 years ago.

    As for white privilege. Just ask my black co workers and bosses how far my Caucasian birth defect has got me. Being white has never saved me from a ticket. Being truthful and polite has though.
    DUI , got it.
    Speeding, got that one also.
    Pulled out of a diner in the south just to have my car searched, yes it happened.
    Stopped and questioned by boarder patrol crossing back into the US because I looked Mexican and didn’t have my work permit. Yep happened.
    Pulled over one night and given a field sobriety test for an hour+ until the chief came down and told the rookie to let me go. I was picking up a drunk friend from the bar. The cop swore he could smell alcohol on me and just kept testing me and getting frustrated the whole time. He never asked if I was even drinking. I was his first.
    White privileged has really helped me.

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    I don’t want to waste sunny Cuba, on common street-malcontents! (And I generally only advocate fusion-weapons be used on our existential enemies.)

    “Mad World”
    Zoe Does Life
    https://youtu.be/05OJbKqENQo
    3:45

  • sippin_bourbon

    “I meant that the American experience with these problems are specific to this country.”

    Yes, and the German experience is unique to Germany.
    And the Canadian Experience is unique to Canada.

    “We need to understand what is happening today in the larger context of our nation’s struggles over the centuries and what has occurred in the past. ”

    Being aware is one thing. However, this is not the 1950’s. or the 1850’s or the 1650s. The construct known as white privilege is literally nothing more than the latest scheme to transfer wealth.

    I did not own slaves. My family moved to North America just prior to the Civil War, and several wore a Blue uniform during that war. No one in my family owned a slave. They worked from the ground up and built a business.

    If there is a systemic institutionalized racist system in this country, it is because the democrats put it there. Jim Crow laws would qualify as such law, but that is gone, for a very long time now. The welfare (war on poverty) institutionalized racism, by limiting peoples ability to get out of poverty. The moment someone got a job, the safety net was yanked away, and so it encouraged people to just “take the check”. It rewarded fatherless homes, something many in the black community have tried to point out, but were shouted down (“how dare you disrespect single mothers that way”). This destroyed the black family unit, and impaired generations. And anytime there was an attempt to reform it, Democrats protected it like a Southern Master protecting his plantation.

    In short anything that created the stability or success for the majority of black Americans was the opposite of what the Democrats wanted. There is your systemic institutionalized racism. At your feet.

    “Saying Kristallnacht adds little to the discussion.”
    Kristallnacht was in Germany, yes. However, who broke the windows? Fascists, specifically the SA.
    Who is smashing windows here? Fascists. Fascists pretending they are not by calling themselves antifa.
    They are the primary instigators of the violence. They are the ones handing out brinks to teen age boys, hoping to provoke a shooting. They are coordinating the violence?
    Why, same reason in Germany. They want to change the government. They are using BLM to legitimize their cause.

  • sippin_bourbon

    “Also, what I meant is government sanctioned violence under color of authority. Police have abused suspects in custody and claimed that what they’re doing is legal. Trump has encouraged them to rough up people they’re arresting.”

    Now you are back to “everything is Trumps fault.”

    Police brutality was an issue before he was President.
    It will be an issue after he is president (regardless if that is next year or five years from now).

    Police brutality effects EVERYONE. It is hardest on those are on the receiving end, but the people that hate it the most are the 99% of cops that are professional.
    Have you seen the “ACAB” signs. This is “All Cops are B******s”. It is a scheme by antifa to: a) lump cops together; and b) attempt to separate the community from law enforcement further.
    Why? Because widening that gap is what they want. That makes it easier to stir people up.
    THere have been several law enforcement leaders reaching out to BLM throughout the protests. Taking a knee with them, talking with them. In some places handing out water and masks so that they can march peacefully and safely.

    Antifa is pushing back against that. That is the opposite of their goals. They do this by encouraging attacks on police and by baiting the police into over reacting.Throwing the bottles and rocks and creating random gunfire in hopes the cops will shoot. They are instigating this to prevent LE and BLM from engaging. That is not how you lower police brutality. That is not how you reduce the so-called “systemic racism”.

    Antifa is rightfully being labeled a terrorist org by Trump.

  • Douglas Messier

    No, bourbon guy, I did not say this is all Trump’s fault. He has been irresponsible in his rhetoric. When he tells police to mistreat suspects, when he paints media as enemies of the people, he encourages violence against them. Police have been attacking protesters and shooting at media, often with no good reason. There would less of this if police didn’t feel Trump has their back.

    Of course police brutality existed before Trump entered office. That’s what I’ve been saying. The problems go back centuries.

  • pzatchok

    When did he tell the police to be violent?
    From what I understand he said ‘when the violence starts the shooting starts’. Which it did, cops were shot and killed.

    When did he encourage violence against the Media? And who in the media have been attacked by whom? All I see is the conservative media being attacked. The two cases of the progressive media being “attacked” one was an argumentative collage student dressed just like the rioters and the other was a fat dude dressed just like the rioters and he was let go a few hours later no charges or bruises.

    “There would be less of this if the police didn’t feel Trump has their back”
    In other words you want the police to feel isolated and afraid? Afraid enough to never defend themselves? Afraid enough to never lay a hand on a suspect again?
    In other words you want the police to not have any boss “who has their back” or supports them.
    How would you feel if you had a boss or work environment that didn’t support you? The first accusation of any type against you and you are fired. No investigation just fired.
    The guy behind you on that corporate ladder just accused you of being racist and boom your out the door. Someone accuses you of being homophobic and you no longer have any customers.

    You better pray that someone other than your mother has your back.

  • sippin_bourbon

    So what it sounds like your saying is, as the head of the executive branch, the branch responsible for executing the laws of the nation, should abandon law enforcement. He should abandon the 99+% of Police Officers that are perfectly fine and great at their jobs? No. Your wrong.

    Every post you have made has a statement to malign Trump for us, to show us how “orange man bad”. You are showing signs of obsession, and you point to him in every post as the cause of something wrong. I don’t like some of his rhetoric either. The man talks like a fool. But NEVER ONCE has he gone out and said ANYTHING that is racist. Not one of his policies is racist. But the moment he stepped onto the Republican Platform he was apparently converted to an instant racist. In fact, most are the exact opposite (prison reform, producing jobs pre-pandemic, meeting with black leaders). And just saying now, if you come back with the “fine people on both sides” quote, don’t. There are many sites, that put show is complete remarks and debunk that myth.

    “Police have been attacking protesters”. Many of the videos I have seen are the other way around.
    I have also seen videos of incredible police restraint. Police may defend themselves. They are not required to give ground. They have a duty to protect the city/county/ state they work for. They are not stopping marchers. They are not stopping chants. They are stopping riots.

    And please, open your eyes and see the difference between protest and riot. They are not one and the same, and as I said before, NOTHING from our history justifies vandalism, looting, arson, assault and murder. NOTHING in our “unique American Experience” makes that allowable.

    -I see they made an arrest in the murder of David Dorn.
    I guess black lives don’t matter if that black man is getting in the way of stealing a new big screen TV.

    -I also see that “Go fund me” has cancelled a fund raiser that Candace Owen started to support a bar in Alabama. The bar is being boycotted because the bar owner committed the sin of agreeing with the video I posted above.
    I guess black voices don’t matter, if they are saying the wrong things.

    -But rely on Joe Biden. “I tell you if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black”.
    I guess Black votes don’t matter, if they are voting for the wrong candidate.

    More of that institutionalized systemic racism.

  • Douglas Messier

    “So what it sounds like your saying is….”

    You have consistently misunderstood what I’ve said here. You have long rebuttals to things I’ve never written and did not mean. You twist the words to something you want to respond to and then pour forth well rehearsed rhetoric. Makes it hare to have any sort of conversation here.

    But briefly:

    There are plenty of videos online showing police not showing restraint and actually attacking protesters and media without provocation. That you haven’t seen them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    Trump told law enforcement they were free to rough up suspects during a speech before a law enforcement group. He also made remarks about paying legal fees for rally attendees removing a protester from a rally. He has also reversed a number of good Obama-era policies designed to reform policing. And ignored a playbook on better policing the administration left him. (Shades of the pandemic playbook.)

    There have been journalists who have covered conflicts overseas who say they were never targeted during their time doing that. But they have been shot at by police here without provocation. When you demonize the press for years, call them the enemy of the people, it encourages cops to go after the media for doing their jobs because they don’t fear consequences from the administration. That’s what I mean by having their back.

  • sippin_bourbon

    I have not misunderstood anything you have said. I have simply recognized your statements as the same Progressive talking points I can find anywhere else on the internet.

    The press has brought this on themselves with decidedly biased reporting. CNN is openly manipulating videos of Trump, changing context. And what is worse, they feel justified.
    The overseas journalists were usually embedded with American Units, which means they were quite safe. When they stand in the middle of rioters when they cops use pepper balls or rubber bullets, they are gonna get hit.
    I have seen the videos online. They are nicely edited. That is what Antifa does. They provoke (usually violently), and then video the response and call it aggression.
    They have been doing this for YEARS. Andy Ngo and others have documented this.

    Trump also reversed Joe Bidens 1994 Crime Bill with Mandatory sentencing. (Another “systemic racist law” passed by Dems.)
    Not all of Obama’s policies were really that good. They did little to protect and put lots of money in the Lawyers pockets. They were also not LAW, they were executive order. You wanna do reform? Pass a law.
    Leading by policy and declaration is not good leadership.

    As for Trumps speech to the LE group. I know, Trump knows, and THEY know what sarcasm is. It was great, and the Media ate up the distraction like mad. Just like you are. In the mean time he went on to pass good legislation and appoint more judges. You apparently do not realize that he is playing the media, and you, with his rhetoric, while pushing good policy. And quite frankly, I do not care if you, or the media, dislike it.

  • sippin_bourbon

    You started this off with an insult, talking down to us, telling us we should read more and lecturing that “There are real issues here that the country must grapple with.”
    I will grant that. But there ALWAYS will be. And race is just one. However, professional race-baiters who rile up the crowds while POCKETING MILLIONS are actually preventing America of healing further. They WANT discord to continue. The Democrats ALWAYS want race to be an issue, in every election.

    But then you went to this :The scariest part of this whole situation has been Trump…blah blah blah” and THAT is where you lost me. And every post you have made has been to try to convince me, a mere mortal, that Big Bad Trump is who we should really be scared about. I reject that too. He is a politician. We have survived worse politicians. Just look at the past 400 years.

    I said you are caught in the outrage machine. Man I am telling you, get out of that machine. It will kill you (be destroying your health). Its is BAD for you. It never ends and there will always be someone to be outraged about. Just wait, and CNN will tell you who.

    If you have some other point that we should accept the violence, because of 400 years of history, then make it. But I reject “white privilege” arguments as a false emotional plea. I reject the notion that we need to radically change our system of government (BLM Foundation is OPENLY socialist). The Constitution is fine. I reject abandoning the Rule of Law, even temporarily because of a rogue cop. I do not accept that it is “just property” damage. It is destroying small business owner’s livelihoods (most will not recover based on previous riots ). I reject anything So if any of those are the basis of your argument, then we are done here.

    Look for a video of Chaziel Sunz, former BLM leader who got OUT because he realized its a money game.
    Wanna read a book, go get Blackout by Candace Owens. She is real good about explaining the scam that keeps the race issue stagnant and ongoing, ON PURPOSE.

  • sippin_bourbon

    For the record, I rehearse nothing.

  • wayne

    sippin_bourbon-
    Good stuff.

    Personally, I’ve watched every Trump Rally in their entirety, and maybe 90% of all Trumps official government appearances.
    [C-Span and/or Right Side Broadcasting]
    All these alleged authoritarian-commands attributed to Trump = lies.

  • Chris

    Douglas Messier – I have learned sometimes the hard way that you need data to argue in this forum. That is the way it is supposed to be by the way.
    You can’t say “Trump said the other day”. X You end the quote AND you had better be in context as Sippin Burbon noted in firing Muller.

    I note this not to make points in an argument but to insure we argue with facts which we cannot change with our opinion. It is of premium importance that we all keep to facts and not our perception of facts.

    Also important is that we keep talking and arguing on the facts.

    Sign off from Montana

  • pzatchok

    As for Trump having the backs of the police.

    Sorry but the support for the local officer comes first from his fellow cops, then his union, then his commanders, then the local politicians whom the union supported. Add in a few friendly prosecutors and internal affairs officers.

    The president of the US doesn’t have any influence in this unless he personally steps in and saves an officer. Otherwise its just lip service.
    Exactly how many officers has he stepped in and saved so far?
    As a counter point how many people has he stepped in and commuted their sentence? Hint, more than Obama did.

  • Douglas Messier

    Chris:

    I have tried to provide examples of what Trump has done and said only to have those things dismissed as oh he’s only being sarcastic or he didn’t really mean it or that’s not racist or he never did or said that.

    You talk about data. But the original post lacks it. There are a lot of historical facts put forth connected to present day events in the thinnest and weakest of ways. My suggestion that the protests and violence be understood within a historical American context was dismissed outright.

    Boubon Guy: you have long responses long on rhetoric but short on facts and logic. It’s less an argument than a chance for you to put out a lot of talking points whether they address the issue or not.

  • Douglas Messier

    Journalists were not fired upon because they were standing in a crowd that police targeted. They’ve been deliberately fired upon while standing apart from protesters and filming what police were doing.

    Not just CNN. The idea that journalists had it coming is dispicable. Firing on and roughing up journalists without cause under color of authority is police brutality. It should be cause for dismissal. Letting Trump off the hook for creating an atmosphere were assaulting journalists is viewed as OK is unacceptable.

    The protests are about police brutality. Police have proven it’s real in their response.

  • sippin_bourbon

    DM.
    I went through everyone of your posts on this thread, I skipped none.

    “If you’re worried about tyranny, about fascism, you really need to focus on Trump.”
    “Trump has said…. That should scare people.”
    “When you hear a president say… becomes a very scary thing”
    “Throw in his admiration of autocrats…”
    “He is an autocrat”
    “Trump thinks he can do anything”
    “Trump has encouraged them to rough up people they’re arresting. That issue is real as we’ve seen, it particularly affects minority communities, and that is what the protest is about”
    “When you demonize the press for years…”

    You want to argue facts and logic, but all of your arguments are emotional pleas.
    You said numerous times “Trump said X, Y, or Z, and I called it out of context, provided the context, and at least once, gave you the full quote, because I realized you are not seeking out the context as I provide it.

    “[Press] been deliberately fired upon..” You have no basis for making such a statement. They were struck by pepper balls or rubber bullets (not the lead kind.. a rather important fact you leave out). You and I cannot like it. It is awful that a photographer lost her eye. However, that does not automatically make it deliberate. You imply malice, and assign it to Trump with your overall argument. This is just another emotional plea on your part.

    “When he tells police to mistreat suspects, when he paints media as enemies of the people, he encourages violence against them.”

    You know, I watched the whole darn thing. There is no way to properly convey patterns and style of speech that is used with sarcasm. You just have to see it. It is clear to anyone.

    Above are the reasons I stated that you are here as part of the outrage machine.

    “My suggestion that the protests and violence be understood within a historical American context was dismissed outright.”

    You wanted to “shift the frame of reference” to a frame that supports your conclusion.
    I shifted it the other way by providing examples of Progressive Democrat laws and policies that have oppressed people of color. I gave you examples of poor governance that I believe have helped lead us to the current situation. I provided specific examples of such laws, and painted them in that context. This is called making a counter argument. You failed to see the logic, because you don’t like it.

  • sippin_bourbon

    “Our republic is at stake here.”

    This is the only statement we agree on.

    However, it always is. Every generation, as President Reagan noted. And always will be under threat, as President Lincoln noted.

    The current threat is not in the White House.

    The current threat is the mobs of people that are trying to steer protesters into socialist revolution, and the Progressive politicians that support them. The threat of a failed socio-economic system uprooting this country and destroying it is real.

  • Cotour

    sippin_bourbon

    Two thumbs up, the threat today in the country comes full throttle from the Democrat party leadership and the Left that they pander to.

    Desperation when survival is involved will bring out the worst in anyone, and in this case it just reveals the Democrats and the Left for what they are, Socialist promoting panderers who would “Fundamentally change” America.

    And to change it into what? They never quite get to that level of detail. In the end its Capitalism and the American Constitution that drives anything good in the world. It promotes it and it supports it.

    Change into what is the question? And there is nothing other than rhetoric and Leftist talking point to rile up the masses that are willing to eat what they are serving. Bovine effluent, nothing more, nothing less.

  • pzatchok

    Douglas Messier

    If you think Americas treatment of reporters is limited to and only includes Trumps presidency then you are truly ignorant of the whole rest of the world.

    Do you really want me to look up the stats on reporters deaths and injuries around the world?

  • Chris

    You need quotations and possibly links and in context
    Saying Trump said something is not enough

  • Douglas Messier

    I’m quite aware of the stats on reporters around the world being injured or killed. I never said it was limited to Trump’s term. It’s not normal for domestic law enforcement to shoot at media without provocation like we’re seeing now.

    Sorry, Chris and Bourbon I’m not used to having to annotate and have to provide links to things has done or said. He’s so all over the media that most people are aware of it. If they’re not they are at least capable of googling it.

    Here’s an example. Search term: news crew shot at by police

    https://abc30.com/tv-crew-shot-news-with-pepper-balls-wave-at/6221562/

    See how easy that is? Instead of responding immediately saying there is no evidence, look it up for yourself. Then your response wouldn’t be totally uninformed.

    To save time, please provide a list of publications and sources that you consider credible. That way I’m not referencing news sources Trump has told you not to trust because they accurately report what he says and does.

    Well have a nice day.

  • sippin_bourbon

    I never said that the pepper ball incident never happened.

    ““Officers do have orders not to fire pepper balls at media, but I’m sure you hopefully understand that sometimes when the media are involved inside the crowd or inside the area where there are protesters, and those protestors are doing something unlawful or something they are not supposed to do, it’s sometimes an unintended consequence when we fire the pepper balls into the crowd,” Chavous said.” (Wave3 news)

    The officer has been reassigned pending investigation.

    When you say ” cops shoot journalists” with out specifying that it’s non-lethal crowd control measures, you are making an emotional appeal.

    And then you added all this is happening because Trump gave a mean speech, putting it as his feet.

    This is why I said your blaming Trump for everything.

  • pzatchok

    She was walking out into the middle of the road. Beyond the lines.

    Had a backpack on. Just like the protesters.

    They were only paintballs. Little stingers out of an airgun. Children shoot them at leach other all the time.

    She moved back pretty quick. Just like the cops wanted.

  • Douglas Messier

    Chavous’ explanation is rather mealy mouthed. There appeared to be zero reason to shoot at them. It was quite deliberate.

    Not the only incident of them shooting at or physically attacking media or civilians for no reason. No, I’m not going to look all that up for you. Google it.

    I wasn’t specific enough? Sorry. There haven’t been any reporters who have died, which is widely known. If you’ve been following the protests as closely as you claim to have been, you would know that. I never implied that they were using lethal means. That’s something you read into my words, which is what you do. In any event, media shouldn’t be targeted.

    pzatchok, she had a backpack? Really? Like the protesters. Oh. I guess the cop missed the news cameraman with her that he shot at as well. Beyond the lines but threatening nobody.

    Only paint balls? No, pepper balls. Different. Please provide your address. I’ll send some people over to shoot at you with pepper balls so you can tell the difference.

  • sippin_bourbon

    Wow. That a threat?

    The pepper balls are projectiles using the same CO2 tech as a paintball gun.
    Paint balls are also used to ” tag” suspects for later arrest based on their actions. Same CO2 gun used, just swap out the bins.

  • sippin_bourbon

    “I never implied that they were using lethal means.”
    When someone says “shooting”, no one assumes assumes non-lethal, so I am sorry, that earns a Bravo Sierra flag.

  • Cotour

    You want to know just how racist the Jews are? Just how much they hate the blacks in America?

    I present the irrefutable evidence.

    https://youtu.be/OODD_ag3ehI

    This is an excellent example of just how effective one man, who is a Jew, can be in spreading his particular brand of “Racism” here in America. Outrageous!

  • Cotour

    And we understand that men like this, Harris Rosen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Rosen

    Can do what they do in the world because they are committed and focused, a man of vision and they put their money where their mouths are and MAKE it happen. And when government attempts the same IT CAN ONLY RESULT IN DISASTER AND CORRUPTION, its a scam.

    “Racism” in America, its rampant.

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