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The next chapter in my own personal blacklisting story

The ARA: An organization run by bullies
The ARA: An organization run by bullies

This past Saturday, January 28, 2023, another chapter in my own personal blacklisting saga took place. On that day the Arizona Regional Association (ARA), a division of the National Speleological Society, the country’s national organization for cavers, held its annual winter technical meeting at Kartchner Caverns in Arizona.

It is this same organization had blacklisted me and two other individuals in November 2021 because they did not like our opinions about COVID. Its leadership therefore assumed that it also the right to eject us from the public event on Saturday. It was our intention to show them they were wrong.

The goal of the winter technical, which has been occurring annually for about a half century, is to allow southwest cavers to present papers highlighting their research and projects during the past year. While intended mostly for Arizona cavers, it has not been unusual for others from other parts of the country to present, especially if their work has some connection with Arizona. Consider it a very informal kind of scientific conference.

Thus, this event has always been open to the public, and in fact has always been designed as a form of outreach.

The Wuhan panic had unfortunately caused the winter technical to be canceled in 2021 and 2022. Thus, the January 2023 event was to be the first in-person winter technical since 2020.

It was also going to be the first in-person winter technical since this organization had blacklisted myself and two others. The history of that blacklisting all relates to the Wuhan panic. In the fall of 2021 the ARA leadership had finally decided to come out of their basements and hold a caving campout where cavers could socialize and go caving, but in doing so insisted that everyone who attended reveal whether they had gotten the jab, and if not, demanded they get tested for COVID 72 hours before.

I and about eight other people refused. We saw these rules as discriminatory. It also was was none of their business to demand we get the jab, or to demand we get tested. Nor was the jab going to protect anyone from COVID, since by the summer of 2021 there was already ample research showing its relative ineffectiveness.

Furthermore, this was an outdoor camping event. If anyone was scared of getting COVID, they could either easily stay away from others, or not come at all. Such people had no right to dictate what others had to do to ease their irrational fears.

When they realized that (1) they could not enforce their mandates, and (2) those mandates made no sense, the organizers cancelled the campout, and then decided to make three of us — the most outspoken — the scapegoats for that cancellation. In blacklisting us, however, the leaders of the ARA violated of their own constitution and bylaws. They held a show trial without obtaining the proper approval from the membership, and then outlawed us from the ARA for two years, even though those same rules gave them no power or right to do any such thing. Similarly, the leadership of one of the local southern Arizona clubs, Southern Arizona Grotto (SAG), banned me as well, and also did so in violation of its own constitution and bylaws.

Southern Arizona Grotto: Another caving organization run by bullies
Southern Arizona Grotto: Also
run by bullies

Because their actions were fundamentally illegal by their organizations’ own rules, I and Henry Schneiker (one of the others blacklisted) have made it a point to ignore their blacklist orders. In November 2022 we attended a public meeting of SAG, where the club’s president, David Vidonic, and another member, Sarah Truebe, tried to order us to leave. Since it was a public event in a public place open to the public, we told them to go jump in a lake (I describe what happened that evening in detail here). Since then these bullies have moved all SAG meetings to private homes, hiding from us. What cowards.

The ARA winter technical this past weekend however was being held in a public place, open to the public. Henry and I once again decided to go, even though we had been told through friendly sources that the ARA officers were going to call security to get us ejected if we showed up.

Though attendees of the event did not have to pay the state’s park entrance fee, when we arrived I insisted on paying the $7. I wanted that receipt to prove I was a legitimate paying member of the general public. When we entered the Kartchner Caverns visitor center, we immediately saw at the information desk a big poster outlining the program of the ARA winter technical event, being held in the auditorium. I asked the person behind the information desk if we could go in, and she said yes, of course, it is open to the public.

We went in and sat down, sitting next to another caver who immediately reached out to shake my hand in greeting. The second talk had just ended (we had purposely arrived fashionably late), and the third talk then proceeded. At the end of this talk a security guard came over with one of the event organizers, David Vidonic, and asked us to step outside. We did so.

The guard explained that, according to Vidonic, he and the ARA officers (Steve Smith, Ray Keeler, and Scott King) had requested the park remove us. I immediately showed my entrance receipt, explained that both I and Henry were members of the general public, the event was open to all, and that we had been quietly listening and causing no disturbance. “Can I please go back inside? I came to listen to the talks and am now missing them.”

This wasn’t good enough for Vidonic, who by the way had also been the SAG president who tried and failed to throw me out of that club’s November meeting. After making more fruitless demands that we be thrown out, the guard noted bluntly but politely that I was legally correct, and that unless Vidonic and the ARA had a court order documenting the ban, we could not be ejected.

Since the ban had been instituted illegally, we all knew the ARA could never get any judge to issue such a thing. Henry quipped, “I love to see them try to get such an order.”

I reiterated my request to go back inside. The guard then asked, “You promise to cause no disturbance?”

I said, “Of course. I came to hear the talks. However, if we go back inside I can’t help worrying about some others there, some of which have been — how can I put this — somewhat aggressive. I am worried they might approach and threaten us, thus causing a disturbance.”

The guard then offered to remain in the event for the entire day, to which Henry and I heartily agreed.

We then went back inside. Before we did so Vidonic demanded (that word again) I answer yes or no to this question: “Do you ever want to one day rejoin the caving community and be embraced by it?”

Though the proper answer was to tell him I was not there to be interrogated, this was not the time to say this. My focus was to demonstrate to the security guard my good will. I simply answered, “I can’t answer that question now.”

He then puffed himself up. “Well, if you do want to rejoin this community, you are going about it in the wrong way. Your behavior is getting people angry with you.”

The hubris by this person was mind-blowing. Despite these people treating me like scum for the past fourteen months, he somehow had the insane expectation that I would of course want to be their pals again.

What he didn’t realize was that his question could be reversed. If he and the other officers of the ARA wanted me to rejoin their little community, they were going about it in the wrong way. Their thuggish behavior, repeatedly harassing Henry and myself, was certainly not a way to win friends.

In fact, what sane person would ever want to associate with such power-hungry goons? Not me. I have now closed the door forever on some individuals. As I wrote in November, I had once considered some of these individuals as close friends, people with whom I would have laid down my life for. I have now discovered they don’t know the meaning of friendship, and cannot be trusted.

Henry and I then sat through the rest of the event, chatting during breaks with a number of other cavers who held no ill will to us and actually wanted this whole drama to end. After the presentations, the ARA then held its annual business meeting, as it traditionally did at the end of the winter technical. By then, just about everyone had left except the ARA officers, a few local club officers, and Henry and I. Interest in the ARA among ordinary cavers was clearly nil. People might not want to be part of this battle, but they also don’t want to be part of an organization that initiates it.

When shortly thereafter Henry and I left, the security guard followed us out and immediately thanked us for doing what we promised, causing no disturbance. Though he was obviously relieved he hadn’t faced a more serious crisis, it also appeared he had realized we were not the true cause of this conflict.

The small victory against our blackballing hardly changes anything. We are still being subjected to a steady effort to harass us whenever we attempt to participate in any public caving event in Arizona. So far they tried twice (and failed) to throw us out of public meetings. Several clubs have switched their meetings from public venues to private ones in what appears to be an obvious effort to keep us out. I have also been told that one ARA officer is going to try to get me expelled from the one Arizona grotto that I have rejoined since last year’s blacklisting, even though that club has no rules allowing such an action. I also expect that if we show up at any major ARA campout this year, they will try again to have us removed.

Outsiders must be asking: Why are these people so obsessed with making Henry and I non-persons? Did we really do something so terrible that requires this never-ending blacklisting campaign?

The instruction manual followed by these caving organizations
The instruction manual followed by the leaders
of these caving organizations

Well, this is what we did: For three years we boldly refused to bow to their COVID demands. They demanded all caving trips be canceled during the lockdown. We told them that was foolish, that getting together to go caving was perfectly safe, that the Wuhan flu was nothing more than a variation of the flu that did not merit such madness, and that getting together for social events was perfectly reasonable, even during the height of the panic. Therefore, as they huddled in their homes in terror, we continued to go caving and have a good time. We even enthusiastically and repeatedly invited them to join us!

They demanded we wear masks on cave trips. We told them that was absurd and refused to do it.

They insisted that all club meetings be held only by zoom. We told them that made no sense, and continued to get together in social groups without them.

They demanded anyone who was not jabbed was a leper who should be banned from every event. We told them that was discriminatory and irrational.

Did we die because we defied their demands? No, of course not. As I said, COVID was really nothing more than a variation of the flu, and such draconian measures were never appropriate or necessary. More important, it is now in retrospect common knowledge that the endless overbearing demands by these people were utterly wrong. They were wrong about lockdowns. They were wrong about masks. They were wrong about social distancing. They were wrong about the COVID shots.

Fundamentally, this is why these people keep trying to ban Henry and I. Our very presence infuriates them, because it makes it plain to their face how wrong they were. Rather than admit error — something any rational civilized adult should always be willing to do — they have decided that any evidence of their errors must be banned from existence.

We however will not be banned. The only way these control freaks can really control anyone is if we consent to their bullying. Well, neither Henry nor I will ever consent to bullying, and we will continue to tell them so, whenever we can.

Sadly, it appears that the two of us are mostly alone in this particular battle. I could get almost no one else to come to the ARA winter technical to support us. Nor was anyone who did attend willing, as a member in good-standing, to speak up on our behalf. Instead, as I mentioned, they all walked away.

This unwillingness of most Americans to resist bullies bodes very badly for the future. Bullies win when people run in fear from them. It appears most Americans are afraid and are eager to run.

Genesis cover

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  • Bob Wilson

    The pettiness of the whole affair seems funny. You should look for opportunities to poke fun at them and show how ridiculous they are. Remember the rules for radicals to make them live up to their own rules. That is If you want to spend the energy on it.. grammar police: “trying to ban Henry and me”. The last two nouns are the objects of the verb “ban.”

  • Bob Wilson: I can understand why you see some absurdity in this whole affair, but consider what it would feel like if every close friend of more than a decade suddenly decided to make you a pariah, for these somewhat petty reasons. I don’t think you find it easy to laugh.

  • Cotour

    Mohammed meet mountain, mountain meet Mohammed.

    Since you are putting it out there, I think you both might have taken a slightly adjusted approach under the unarguably extreme and stressful circumstances.

    During the Covid19 fear as a general rule most people did not know what was what and were genuinely concerned and fearful about their health and who they were around and spent time with. And our own government drove this fear for what was and is their own political agenda which has been thoroughly revealed and discussed here specifically on BTB the entire time. (I guess Mohammed does not read BTB?)

    The government, big pharma and big tech colluded and LIED about most all of the Covid19 virus / mRNA “vaccine” event. They clearly leveraged the situation to their own interests and ends. Pure Strategy.

    And you, the Zman, was well aware and way ahead of the fear mongering and the attempted power grab correctly characterized their collective actions as being abusive and truly Nazi like. But still there was genuine fear in the minds of most of the public no matter what you said or what evidence you presented. And you in the end like so many others got it anyway and survived.

    That being said, you and your compatriots might have bent just a little bit and had taken a simple Covid test. No harm no foul. Insist on having the experimental shot? Or, you must wear a mask while outside? That might have been a bridge too far. That I assume is what pissed “Mohammed” off. And of course your insistence that they bend to your medical judgement during this stressful and fearful time over their government created and driven fear mongering was too much for the powers that be.

    Then instead of reaching out and talking reasonably during highly stressful times and finding some way forward Mr. “Mohammed” apparently as reported started making demands. The empowered always start making demands when under perceived or real pressure. There are other ways to handle such things other than demanding. Demanding without choice pisses most everyone off.

    Competent leadership in business as well as other venues is about solving problems not exacerbating them.

    What is the nature of man related to power? And it does not matter at what level the power occurs, whether it be in the administration of a once friendly caving club setting, in the ranks of a police force or in the highest levels of Washington DC the tendency and POTENTIAL is always the same. Choose your way.

    It does not have to be that way but there it is all the same, everyone is and remains pissed off. My mother always told me when you have a problem make a phone call.

    Mohammed call the Mountain, Mountain call Mohammed.

  • David Eastman

    I have a hard time finding anyone in the “omg we’re all doomed unless everyone masks up, hides at home, and gets all the shots” who is willing to admit that it was mostly hype and fearmongering and they overreacted. I find lots of people who haven’t even heard all the evidence, more people who believe that we didn’t all die because the lockdowns and masks worked, and a final group of people who believe that government has to assume we are all idiots and demand 100% compliance to have any hope of getting the 60% we really needed.

  • Cotour

    One more example of bad management and bad leadership:

    “I was informed that policy states all Sheetz employees must have and remain with a perfect beautiful warm welcoming smile,”

    Instead of causing $1,000,000.00 dollars in bad PR for a business in one insensitive statement an actual *Leader* might have taken her aside in private and tried to find a way to raise the money and arrange for her to see a dentist. And that is the kind of capital *L* leadership while improving a good employees health, self image and appearance so she is an even better employee also makes the business a better place to work.

    And if she chose to make that public you would have created $2,000,000.00 of good PR and good will. What a contrast in potentials!

    And that is the difference between a manager “going by the book’ and actual effective *Leadership*, two very different things.

    Where is the line? Figure it out, choose.

  • Gary H

    One of the curses of aging is the realization that true friends are few in number. My supposed best friend, the day after Trump was elected, told me that all white people are racist, Trump was a crook and a Russian agent and I was no better since I was both white and a Trump supporter. This proclamation came about at the top of his lungs in public. My other friend, another Trump voter, who guided my every move when relocating from California to Texas, just shook his head. Neither of us heard from our friend again. My real friend is black and as a freedom loving conservative, was willing to give me a pass for being a white racist Trump supporter. Intolerant and tyrannical people no longer hide their animus.
    I keep thinking that the Chinese must just love the situation we find ourselves in today.. the goal of the left is to divide Americans against each other and it’s working.

  • Icepilot

    “I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein

  • GaryMike

    I know I’m banned. I know this will not be posted. I have not expectation because it isn’t meant for your community. It is meant for you.

    I greatly respect you for standing up for your principles in the face of those demanding that you stand for theirs instead of your own.

    I’ve sorta been there myself. I’ve never been a collector of “friends”.

    Never surrender.

  • GaryMike: Yes, you were banned, for careless and repeated use of obscenities, even after being warned. Nonetheless, your comment went into moderation, and I was thus able to approve it.

    Do you think you can control your language now? If so, I will lift the ban.

  • In reply to Cotour’s second comment above about leadership —

    In 1985 in the lead up to the first B-1Bs coming to Dyess AFB, Abilene, Texas, the Strategic Air Command Base Commander made the proclamation that anyone not presenting “the proper Air Force appearance” even though they meant all weight and physical fitness requirements would be separated immediately from the Air Force at Dyess with no appeal. He was relieved of his command about 2 weeks later. There was at least some good leadership above him.

  • Concerned

    We’re more divided than ever, but I thank God for Trump, because he brought clarity. I too lost a long time friend over what he thought of Trump and by transference what he thought of me. The friendship was always pretty superficial and involved mostly common work interests. He never really got to know me and my moral compass, so I thank Trump for forcing that discussion. I feel bad about losing the friendship, but appreciate the clarity and cherish that much more friends who have taken the time to truly get to know me over the years to where the cultural emergence of a Trump figure made no difference whatsoever in our relationship, and in fact enhanced it.

  • Cotour


    I read the rest of the Sheetz dental issue story, and this is what the Company PR man said in response to the entire heartless disaster:

    “Sheetz PR manager Nick Ruffner told the outlet that the story “has prompted a more specific review to ensure our policies are aligned with Sheetz’s commitment to foster a culture of respect.”

    “While we have a personal appearance policy that includes dental health, we provide accommodations to the policy that are granted for medical, cultural, and religious reasons,” Ruffner said. At Sheetz, it is important that we honor and recognize our employees’ diverse experiences, individual identities, and unique perspectives.”

    A useless BS (Bovine swill) politically correct corporate statement.

    The guy had the opportunity to make lemonade out of lemons and whoosh, right over his head. Even if it was not a corporate solution find a way to help the poor woman.

    Help get the girl some teeth genius!

    Just another inside the box manager and not a Leader solving problems, he is creating problems.

    Could have been a hero, but he is only a zero. By choice.

  • GaryMike


    I thought I was banned for attitude, not obscenities. The latter are more easily controlled. I don’t remember them, I have no vested interests in them.

    Either way, should you lift my ban I will post sparingly, minimizing the community’s exposure to my presence that I can’t say didn’t goad you into the deed.

    Never surrender. }8^{}

    (Don’t un-ban me. I just caught myself thinking about doing what you said I’d done. I’m not ready. It’s still a too casual propensity for expression. I guess shorthand can be addictive.)

  • GaryMike: I would never ban someone simply because of a attitude. That is an expression of who they are.

    All I ask is that commenters maintain a certain level of civilized adult behavior.

    As for now, any comments you make will automatically go into moderation. As long as you behave properly, they will be approved by me, though there will be a delay till I get to them. Since you say you don’t yet trust yourself, I think this can be a good compromise, for the present.

  • Sippin_bourbon

    After 2 plus years, I finally caught it. It has been like a really rough flu. Longer too.
    But manageable.

    Worst part is that I must avoid one of my children entirely. And when I am around her next, will probably mask up, and maintain distance

    Before you say anything it is because she is immuno compromised, and I will never ever risk her health.

  • Gary


    I respect your actions with regard to your daughter. Maybe you can help me with a question that I’ve had throughout this issue. How were people behaving around the immuno-compromised before Covid? My sense is there are no fewer or no more than before. I didn’t notice a lot of folks in masks, but maybe I just wasn’t looking. Seems your approach is just common sense. If you are contagious, no matter the disease, stay at home. If you know someone who is especially vulnerable to contagious disease, make special accommodations. Those were common sense rules before and Covid shouldn’t alter that. Otherwise, like most of the folks in this thread, live your life without fear.

  • Common sense accommodations to protect the vulnerable always make sense. The problem is that we no longer can distinguish between what works and what feels good. Masks make you feel safe, but do nothing. If you are healthy there is no need to wear one. None. You won’t get someone else sick.

    If you are sick, or even slightly off in some way, you should simply stay away from the immuno compromised. That is simple common sense, and is what we used to do.

  • Ken Franks

    It’s unfortunate that you and your friends were treated with such discrimination and hate. It pains me so.. Especially due to the fact that you have been spot on in your analysis and action responding to this, for lack of better terms, crime against humanity.
    Ever since this scam of a pandemic began, I have not missed a beat. Our business never closed one day because we refused to bow to the thugs pressing their false agenda and propaganda. I have never worn a face diaper, never allowed my nose to be swabbed. But, still, here I am.
    Personally, I have (twice) been sought out by park staff and banished from hiking trails when I was 20 miles from the next breathing soul. It’s total insanity. I refuse to participate.

  • Ken Franks: I am curious: What parks were you in? And I can’t imagine any attempt to banish someone from hiking working, in the slightest. If a park ranger attempted this with me I’d laugh in his or her face.

    Note that Diane and I must have hiked an average of 15 miles per week throughout 2020, 2021, and 2022, never wore masks, and were never bothered by anyone.

  • Edward

    Gary wrote: “If you are contagious, no matter the disease, stay at home. If you know someone who is especially vulnerable to contagious disease, make special accommodations. Those were common sense rules before and Covid shouldn’t alter that. Otherwise, like most of the folks in this thread, live your life without fear.

    The reason why masks were not recommended for the ill before the Wuhan flu is because they don’t work. Doctors and scientists had been eager, even desperate, to find something that would work, but all tests on masks showed that they didn’t work. They may not even work for what they were designed for: preventing post-surgical infections. The data gives no significant results on even that matter. Some studies suggested that they were counterproductive, but again, no significant results. They may give a false sense of security, so the wearers may be less careful with them than without them.

    Centuries of lessons in dealing with diseases resulted in the common sense rules, before the Wuhan flu panic, and it was the violation of virtually all the lessons learned by the medical profession that gave us the disaster that was the Wuhan flu, and the resulting economic, social, and relationship disasters. Some people trusted the lessons learned, and others trusted the lying politicians (decades of experience told us to never trust politicians).

    As the hippies said in the 1960s: “If it makes you feel good, do it.” So wear the mask if you want; I don’t mind, and I don’t comment. But I may wonder in my mind whether you are ill but believe that you safely may go about town as long as you are masked up — if the masks work then this is the logical and emotional conclusion. There are consequences to telling people lies, which is why there is now so much more hesitation by the general public to take any vaccines than there was before. We no longer trust our medical professionals to tell us the truth, and we now wonder how long they have been lying to us.

    Robert wrote in his post: “As I said, COVID was really nothing more than a variation of the flu, and such draconian measures were never appropriate or necessary.

    Specifically, a variation of the SARS flu, which is why the official name is not COVID or Wuhan flu but “SARS-CoV-2.” We didn’t have to go through all this fiasco for SARS, or Ebola, for that matter, but somehow we did for something that had been enhanced, as in gain of function, to a slightly more virulent virus than before. We have discovered that our scientists are the mad scientists of bad science fiction/horror stories, making a terrible disease just to see how bad bad can be. So, now we cannot trust our biology scientists, either.

    So those who did as the politicians said and got the jab are increasingly filling up the hospital beds, but those who did not trust them and didn’t get the jab are increasingly not filling up hospital beds. It turns out that the more jabs taken, the more likely the jab’s victim will end up in the hospital. Even the president and his wife got Wuhan flu, despite all their jabs, and despite their assurances that the jab protects perfectly against infection.

    Ironically, those who still do trust the doctors, scientists, and politicians are the same ones who easily give up their friends — us — because they trust strangers, the doctors, scientists, and politicians, more than they trust their friends, the people they know. How many of us realized that we were less trustworthy than the politicians?

  • James Street

    My Psych 101 prof said 10% of people in the world are crazy. Seems a large percentage of them ended up in the Arizona caving community. And my family.

    I am impressed with the security guard.

    Odd thing happened to me last week. No mention of the Covid vaccine on a doctor’s visit. As usual my company went with a new health care provider this year and last week I went in for a physical. The online forms I filled out before the visit never mentioned the Covid vaccine. It did ask if I had had Covid. During my office visit the doc, nurses and staff made no mention of the Covid vaccine or if I’d gotten it.

    I wonder if they’ve seen the light and care about the health of their patients, or more likely, they’ve seen the light and are concerned about getting sued for everything they’ve pulled. Public opinion of health care workers has sunken as low as that of politicians.

  • Udum

    That is some world-class whining right there.

  • E. Connors

    It would have been just another flu, but this time the government did not allow doctors to treat it until the virus was well established.

  • Udum, are you referring to our host?

    Because what he has been subjected to is the result of an implied obligation as a “good citizen” to SUBMIT to those “in authority” – right, wrong or indifferent – that we have imposed upon ourselves.

    Among other things, that implied obligation effectively disengaged much of the distributed intellect in our society from having their proximity-and-consequence-informed insights leveraged to deal with COVID without burning down the village to save it:

    >.Robbing our kids of a year or more of actual education.
    > Driving profitable businesses into total loss.
    > Delaying medical care that would prevent little problems from turning into big ones.
    > Dividing families and friends from each other.
    > Raising the debt burden on the entire nation.
    > Playing havoc with our electoral processes, eroding trust in them.
    > And reinforcing dependence upon authority, at the expense of individual liberty, responsibility and initiative; the secret sauce of all human advancement, micro and macro.

    All for a disease where it was evident – very early in 2020: – that the threat was limited to rather specific demographics. But those whose common sense perceived that were shouted down and condemned by the Karens and Cuomos and Faucis among us, in the name of saving us from ourselves.

    It is that implied obligation, and the resultant limitation above, that is leading our society into stagnation. Overtly standing for reality in the face of this is mot “whining”.

    I say this, having had COVID, twice, in my 60’s with diabetes and three stents in place. The second time, seven months after having both Moderna shots. (Funny how the anti-GMO activists aren’t so loud these days … those of us who took the mRNA vaccines are all GMO’s now.)

  • BtB’s Original Mark

    Bravo Zulu to Jester Naybor, Edward and Mr. Z.
    Hat tip to James Street for an excellent observation, and to IcePilot for the Heinlein quote.

  • ymarsakar

    Here’s free tip. You aren’t supposed to rejoin their society, but make your own. This is an obvious difference in frequencies and life fates. WHere they go, you will not and where you go, they will not be able to reach.

    The sooner you accept this and change your life based upon it, the sooner the problems resolve themselves.

    Which is to say, you will be joining or creating a new community for a new Earth, not one based on the old victim/victimizer/savior mentalities.

  • GWB

    January 31, 2023 at 10:07 pm
    which is why the official name is not COVID or Wuhan flu but “SARS-CoV-2.”

    Which is why a French doctor (well, a team) immediately investigated a great treatment they had found for original SARS – Hydroxychloroquine, HCQ. And they found it seemed just as effective! This was very early in the game. I even decided to start drinking vodka tonics on occasion because of it. (Couldn’t hurt, right?) It was so early that it was part of my Wuhan Flu Party suggestion for combatting the bug: have controlled super spreader events and issue HCQ/Z-Pak parcels to everyone, with the instructions to, upon detecting Wuhan Flu symptoms, immediately start taking the HCQ regimen, then call your doctor. Natural immunity would have flourished rapidly, and we likely would have beaten the bug before they finished the ‘vaccines’.

    And I know I was advocating the Wuhan Flu Party idea by at least April.

  • David

    My fear is that it will be most of 100 years before sober minds then look back on “us” and “our” stupid moves. Postumus exoneration of our views, for all the good it does. Though the absurdities of our day have been mounting, I was most impressed with our mass hysteria at the beginning in 2020 when at the grocer I reached past someone for some produce. The lady practically jumped out of her skin, and turned and gave me a stare of horror over her mask.

    _Science!_, journalism, and politics conspired to make this happen the way it has. Bob is a victim of bad perceptions by this caving community. _Science!_ gives its practitioners the absolute confidence in their Truth, and combined with their untamed illiberal impulses, they act. It’s almost rational.

    The absence of any pushback by what I would have hoped would be a sizable fraction, if not majority, tells me we aren’t done with mass hysteria.

  • Phill O

    Bob Z wrote “Bob Wilson: I can understand why you see some absurdity in this whole affair, but consider what it would feel like if every close friend of more than a decade suddenly decided to make you a pariah, for these somewhat petty reasons. I don’t think you find it easy to laugh.”

    I have another friend that no one showed up in support of him when he went in front of pilot. At least Henry went in full support.
    I was preparing for my first big (by my standards) performance at the Mountain View Gardens assisted living in Sierra Vista the next day.

    I will add more comments in separate cover.

  • Cotour


    “My fear is that it will be most of 100 years before sober minds then look back on “us” and “our” stupid moves. ”

    These were not for the most part stupid moves. Most of this Covid event and related things was a carefully orchestrated event designed to garner a specific result. You could only talk about and take the recommended / forced therapy and if you even spoke about any other rational / viable therapy or even worse refused to take the juice you were unceremoniously banned from work or worse.

    By characterizing it generally as the public and all concerned being “Stupid’ indicates a degree of genuine ignorance, and there was that within the public, the public were kept in a state of fear and unknowing.

    But not within government, big pharma and the big tech censors who became the agenda enforcers.

    What do you estimate was the agenda?

  • Phill O

    In my personal, scientific opinion, both parties are wrong. My self, I am a Ph.D. chemist with research in nuclear analytical chemistry, my wife a veterinary pathologist who headed up the laboratory service for a university and who has worked in a level 4 bio-security laboratory.

    However, let me first point out where Bob is correct”

    1 The original event that lead to the blacklisting was an ARA camp out on forest service land which is open to ALL people and which the ARA had no control over who camped unless they had a court order.

    2 An outdoor event is a low risk activity.

    3 We (cavers) have been taking viruses into the cave environments since the beginning of caving.

    4 By forcing folk to were masks at all times, this has increased the problems. People do not want to wear a mask that has been contaminated by a sneeze and tend to remove the mask if they do sneeze, blowing to where ever they think best.

    5 The history of these upper respiratory viruses is that they tend to come in Strong, but mutate quickly to more contagious but less severe strains.

    6 The overreach by corrupt politicians has lead to the loss of confidence in the scientific community.

    7 The vaccines are best given to those at high risk. ALL vaccines have some risk, and here a thorough knowledge of statistics is required.

    Now, here is a big misconception, one which I originally held:

    The effectiveness of the smallpox vaccine lead us to think that these things work 100% of the time. This is false. Any vaccine can be over run if the original does is high enough. Consider that the vaccine give you say, 1000 antibodies and it each one can suppress 10 viruses particle. An initial load of 10,000 particle would be enough to swamp the antibodies. This is, of course, a rather crude way to look at things. Anyone who has worked in level 4 bio-security knows this.

    The original vaccine for shingles was about %50 effective and many people who got the original one either got the virus or got the newer vaccine.

    Upper respiratory viruses are notoriously difficult to develop vaccines to combat. Why, here I step out and use my own thoughts, because they mutate so quickly. With the flu vaccines (yes, the flu shot is a vaccine by the scientific definition) are best guesses of which strains will be the upcoming problem. The developers are not always right, but even when they are wrong, there is at least some utility in getting the flu vaccine.

    Now some rudimentary statistics gain on a personal level:
    At out church in Animas NM, there were a lot of anti-vaxers. (more power to them) About 20 people got Covid, 4 severe cases, of those 4 2 were hospitalized (all advanced age). There were no deaths. Of the 4 people who were vaccinated, none got Covid and still do not have it.

    However, I am not saying that the vaccinated can not get or spread Covid (or any other virus); THEY CAN, but usually a mild case.

    Let us look at the stats from Canada: Of the deaths, the average age of those who died was (I believe) 78 with 2-3 underlying conditions.

    What utility is there in wearing a mask: The mask can reduce the load by stopping water (moisture) particle which contain the virus. They can not stop the virus itself; those particles are too small. So, for weaponized GMO smallpox (this has been created to render the current vaccines useless) where the particles are free of moisture, masks are totally useless.

    What can I say, when I go to an old folks home where there are many, if not all, high risk folk, I wear a mask if required. Caving— give me a break, no mask is within site, nor are any worn in Costco or WallyMart

    Let me go further, when Covid first came to light, Canadians were told to get back to Canada asap, forcing them to jam aircraft or into Covid hotels. This was the worst thing to do and many got Covid at these hotels. Further, for two years we had to fly, in jams aricraft and airports, rather than well secluded in our own vehicle. Made little sense to me.

    So, who do I support? Bob over the ARA. During the “trial” only two spoke in Bob’s defense, one of which was I.

    It is difficult to support an organization which disregards their own “constitution” in view of old grudges.

  • pawn

    Wow, lot’s of decent debate and elocution.

    I just wanted to also comment of the behavior of the security guard. Obviously someone who takes their job seriously enough to understand the limits of the “authority” and the rights of all the parties involved. They also seem to be a good judge of character. In the end it was the guard’s professional judgment that drove the story’s ultimate conclusion.

    Their behavior was the key factor in the outcome. You were very lucky Mr. Z. That guard could have easily run you out of there and “end of story”.

    And my personal secret kudos to the unknown guard who was the right person at the right time at the right place. Funny how that happens.

    That we are grateful to people for doing their job as intended is kind of messed up but here we are.

  • pawn: Had that guard attempted to throw us out, Henry and I would have turned around and sued Kartchner Caverns, the state (which owns it), and the ARA. They would have lost, and we would have made some cash in the bargain. Moreover, such an action would have given us some real ammunition against the individual thugs in the ARA. They would have been named in the suit as well, and would have been directly liable.

    They were very lucky the guard acted properly.

  • Sippin_bourbon

    I think it is important to point out that the Covid jab is not a vaccine , rather it is an mRNA treatment.

    That is completely different then n actual vaccine that uses a weakened or analogous form of the disease in question to deliberately trigger the bodies immune system to develop a resistance. That is why actual vaccines work, and the Covid jab did not.

  • pawn

    Mr Z,

    Huh? So are you admitting to having a hidden agenda to attending the meeting?

    Hoping to be thrown out so you could have “made some cash” through the court system?

  • Nishan

    Tell Henry I said, “Hi.” We used to work together at Xerox

  • Cotour


    I understand all too well in extreme detail the differences between the two technologies.

    When I ask: What do you estimate was the agenda?

    The overarching answer by the knowable facts then and the growing pile of facts today being revealed was in my estimation to establish the *NEW* fast / targeted “Vaccine” technology over the old slow technology with the bonus of herding the population of the world into mandated compliance, digitally tagging and obedience through enforced fear. Simply put.

    This through the growing body of evidence is the logic and motivation bubble that encompasses the Covid 19 / mRNA “Vaccine” event to my thinking.

  • pawn: Don’t be ridiculous. we had no desire to be thrown out. I am now simply outlining what would have happened had the guard acted illegally.

    If we wanted to get thrown out, we certainly could have created a situation where that would have happened, and we could have done it without doing anything illegal. Our goal was to show the ARA officers their blacklist was invalid in every way anyone could imagine, and this we succeeded in doing.

  • Jeff Mason

    The leaders do the ARA are clearly sheep incapable of critical thought or even digesting updated information. Maybe you should start your own rival group and call yourself the Wolves?
    Kudos to you and your friends for standing up for yourselves, sanity, and freedom. Never sacrifice your freedoms on the altar of someone else’s irrational fears.

  • pzatchok

    Me and my friends would have shown up dressed in full hazmat suits with geiger counters and other gas detectors.

    We would have walked around like it was perfectly normal.

  • Arctic Front

    I’m no scientist but my gut tells me that the Covid virus was engineered in a lab with gain of function, but it’s single purpose and the motivation to make this virus ‘just enough’ dangerous and with a sold backing by media, government, and Fauchi drove the FEAR of covid to drive people (out of fear, and then mandates, and potential to lose your job, and school closures. Thanks to all levels of Government for that) to rush out and get the jab. I personally believe the whole and entire reason that they developed covid in the first place was to create and foster the fear to make people take the jab…. the end-game. mRNA is a death shot. Seriously, who ever heard of ‘sudden adult death syndrome’ prior to covid? Or the hoards of pro athletes dropping dead during a game? Or all the recent deaths of high-profile actors and musicians? Or all the miscarriages and infertility among women and men? They all spell a rapid de-population of this world by humans

  • Cotour


    I agree with much of what you propose to one degree or another.

    What do you think *They* (and who exactly is *They*?) have planned for the rest of us / those who did not take it?

    Q: Do you think that the head of Pfizer, Bill Gates, every plugged in chicken little fear mongering politician (John Kerry) had a special vial that they received the shot from?

    OR, it is just a mass introduction of this fear and the “solution” and those who took it and did not do their due diligence are crap out of luck and are just included in the collateral damage?

    And the logical conclusion would be: The CCP / WEF? The Nazi like CCP/ WEF overlords who see the West and their governments needing extermination? A modern-day cleansing Noah’s flood? By accident or on purpose the virus escaped from the lab and the solution in the form of an mRNA targeted “Vaccine” was mass introduced into primarily the West with the focus being to in the long term debilitate or kill those who took the shot?

    With the end goal being to destroy the West so that the CCP and the associated participants will be left the world to have for themselves?

    Once you start monkeying with a conspiracy as big as what is being proposed, and I am not saying that it cannot be so, it gets very big indeed and extremely complex. Cold hard Strategy at an AI level.

    The end conclusion? Trust none of them and do the best research and due diligence as you can. BUT, understanding that you as an individual will always be behind the curve.

    A friend just sent this reaction to that instilled in the world fear to me:

  • Cotour

    Or, Arctic, it is just all about the Money!?

    Choose one:

    1. Worldwide “necessary” mass murder to install an entirely new world domination and control paradigm while reducing the numbers of humans on the planet?

    Or 2. Just plain old eternal vanilla perversion and corruption in the pursuit of the all mighty dollar?

    Either way Dr. Campbell is not happy at all and he gets closer and closer to just spitting it out, but he holds his tongue and chooses his words very carefully because he fears being denied his big tech mass communications platform:

    Don’t have the time? Just listen to the last three minutes.

  • Edward

    Phill O noted: “People do not want to wear a mask that has been contaminated by a sneeze and tend to remove the mask if they do sneeze, blowing to where ever they think best.

    Ah, yes. So there I was, a year or two ago, reluctantly wearing a mask so that I could perform my volunteer work (at the time it was a county requirement, but now it is only a strong recommendation that a vast majority of the county’s population ignores), when I had to sneeze. Yes, indeed, I had an almost uncontrollable impulse to remove the mask before the sneeze, but managed to keep myself from removing it pre-sneeze. After sneezing into may mask into my elbow, I mentioned the impulse to the person I was with, because the sneeze is the whole purpose of the mask. They are supposed to prevent us from blowing droplets all over our computer screens and all around the people who are present near us. But there I was, breathing through a hypothetically contaminated mask, breathing in the hypothetical Wuhan flu viruses as though I was in close contact with infected people. Had I been in the beginning phases of the Wuhan flu, that one act, the sneeze, would have practically guaranteed a case of Wuhan flu (in the pre-Wuhan meaning of the word, where a case was someone seeing a doctor about an illness, not a mere positive test result).

    So, one question is: if we instinctively remove our protective devices when they are needed most, what good are these devices at all?

    With the flu vaccines (yes, the flu shot is a vaccine by the scientific definition) are best guesses of which strains will be the upcoming problem. The developers are not always right, but even when they are wrong, there is at least some utility in getting the flu vaccine.

    This is the ordinary flu vaccine, not the Wuhan flu “vaccine.” Readers should be aware of this distinction, because it is an important difference. By the time the medical community figures out that a guess was incorrect, it is late in the vaccination season, and it is far, far too late to make the correct vaccine for the version of flu(s) that turned out to be dominant. Flu vaccine manufacture is a time consuming process.

    So, one question is: after the Wuhan flu fiasco, lies, and corruption, how many of us no longer trust the ordinary flu vaccines?

  • Cotour

    Under absolute Democrat control how far were we from this?

    “Senator Angelo Coronel of the Social Democratic Party of Brazil authored a bill (PL 5555/2020), which proposes adding a one- to three-year prison sentence to the Criminal Code for those “who omit or oppose the mandatory vaccination of children or adolescents” during a declared “public health emergency.”

    “Those who choose not to comply with the country’s forced vaccination schedule will face a prison sentence of two to eight years.”

  • Edward

    Why have we stopped trusting our scientists and doctors? Perhaps science is now broken, or at least the way it is practiced these days is broken. Rather than a search for knowledge, it has become a search for what makes us feel good.

    Science is a word that is round-aboutly derived from the latin word for “knowledge.” We define science as a noun, but it is more of a verb; Mark Watney, in The Martian, says that he will science the [ahem] out of his problem. Science is the activity of systematic study through observation and experimentation of the world around us, performed to gain knowledge of the true nature of the world. Science has improved our lives, especially after we started getting good at it, three centuries ago. Life became longer, more comfortable, and more abundant — the population was able to grow. Before Galileo reinvented the scientific endeavor, little changed, and change came very slowly. As our ability to perform science improved, everything changed, and everything improved faster and faster. As we discovered where the changes made things worse, we performed science and engineering to rectify them. Until the act of science began to be corrupted.

    Science, once thought of as the empirical branch of knowledge, is in a full fledged crisis. We’ve become complacent and tolerant and it’s time to wake up and take notice of how academic science has lost its way.

    There are those who believe in the broken science, “The Science,” which can be — and often is — “settled,” therefore unquestionable and thus anyone doing any questioning is declared to be a denier, the equivalent of a heretic. This is not the science that was developed over the past half millennium or so. It is more like the science that Socrates and Aristotle developed. Socrates declared that the truth — the answers — are hidden within us, and all we need to do is draw them out through question and answer (Socratic method or Socratic elenchus). Aristotle declared that as intelligent beings we can figure out, or deduce, the world around us without the need of expensive, time consuming experiments. Besides, experiments could wind up disproving our deductions, disproving our emotional conclusions — although we call them thoughtful conclusions — and disproving our the knowledge hidden inside us. Since we concluded, through emotion, that we are smart enough to sit, think, conclude, and know about how the world works, it does not matter whether our conclusions come from emotions, too. Oh, the hubris; another emotion.

    This is why we now have genders* that we didn’t have until two decades ago, and why these genders are dependent not upon our genes but upon our emotions of the moment — the pleasure of wielding the power to force people to bend to our will (e.g. blacklisting those who do not accept the fantasy). Science is not involved, but The Science is. Because The Science is not empirical, it need not match reality. It is allowed to match some form of fantasy, just like Aristotle’s conclusion that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. Because it was settled, Aristotle’s The Science set us back a couple of millenniums. How long will it take to overcome this modern, broken, The Science and get back on track with the improvements to life?

    As the hippies said in the 1960s, “If it feels good, do it.” If it feels good, advocate for it. If reality doesn’t feel good, ignore it. If fantasy feels good, embrace it. The emotion is selfishness. If the world stops warming, change the historical data so that it looks like it continues to warm, and change the concept so that no matter how the climate changes, it is a crisis that needs an immediate remedy, despite decades of it not being true. The declaration is that our feelings and desires are the knowledge, truth, and answers that are hidden within us, and all we need is to acknowledge them as the known true answers that they are. Aristotlean and Socratic hubris.

    For a century, since the Spanish flu to the Wuhan flu, science showed that masks dodn’t work, no matter how much the doctors and scientists emotionally desired an easy way to prevent the spread of disease. Then, only a month after The Scientists adamantly insisted in no uncertain terms that masks don’t work, the very same The Scientists adamantly insisted in no uncertain terms masks do work after all! The Science was used to support this sudden change in The Scientists’ desires and emotional conclusion. For The Scientists, it felt good to have the masks work in a way for which they were not designed. The emotion here is the hubris of providing The Solution, and the joy of reveling in the adoration of a grateful, fearful public.

    In America, since 2015, The Science has started to reduce our life expectancy, whereas science had continuously increased it. Many other factors of life are becoming worse. Electricity was once abundant, but many people now have to pay dual rates as a way to ration it. Supply chains are breaking down, but these may be problems less from The Science and more from Centrally Controlled Economies, also based upon good feelings rather than good results.

    So, if some people want to believe in masks and faux vaccines so much that they are willing to destroy friendships, then they have let their emotions overwhelm their need for empirical evidence. The emotion here is panic. It feels better to lose friends than it does to give up fantasies and to embrace reality. For them, The Science is more important than science, and it feels far better than reality. It is their search for what makes them feel good. After all, how can we have happy endings if we let reality rule the day?

    * Gender applies to words and language in order to anthropomorphize objects, to give them a sex that they do not have; gender does not apply to people in order to objectify them, to remove the sex that came with them at conception. The Disney corporation expresses this removal best by no longer welcoming “ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls” to their amusement parks.

  • Max

    I know I’m late to the comment party, nevertheless I will give it a shot.

    To over simplify the situation in it’s most basic analogy…
    Science (a tool of discovery) was re-purposed and weaponized to become the boot that smashes the face forever. When you are at war, all resistance must be destroyed or controlled. We’re living through that process now.
    Our self proclaimed masters, refer to us as “the herd”.
    The earth has a virus, mankind. To control the disease and to save the earth, the herd must be thinned.
    To those “ends”, the “means” of a gain of function virus was introduced for the “ends” of a never tested, experimental DNA altering pathogen (not classified or meets the qualifications of a “vaccine”) to be introduced intravenously into the majority of the population.

    Heard immunity was the goal, “two weeks to stop the spread”. The method was similar to “fires being set” and “guns shot in the air” to promote maximum fear to scare the herd into a stampede towards a cliff and/or towards a box Canyon. (The end of freedom, constitutional rights, choice!) where the instigators of the panic could control without fear of reprisal, keeping the herd fed, (free money) and entertained in their captivity… The new normal.

    Zimmermans predicament of warning the herd of the dangers “before it” (I.e. the cliff) are worse than the scare tactics and loud noises behind it, was only heard by a few… But was soon scorned by the “Karen’s” in the herd for being different, (as the “prophets” are always stoned).
    He single himself out as not part of the “herd”, as one who uses reason and logic and does his own thinking versus those who get all the thinking done for them from CNN.

    How does Zimmerman affect the necessary change to return things back to the way they were?… “there are none so blind as those who refuse to see”.
    Time and example will bear fruit, superstition and lies will fall on their own petard.
    (when I say superstition, the masks and the useless vaccinations fall into this category… They are the modern example of “silver Crucifix” worn around the neck to ward off vampires/werewolves, “medicine pouches” to ward off evil spirits and skin walkers, or “holy underwear” garments under your clothing with sacred symbols on them to ward off the devil and his minions… just as I used to carry a rabbits foot as a child to give me good luck)

    A strong belief that you were doing the right thing for the right reason it’s not an excuse for taking somebody else’s liberty.
    It has been well demonstrated that “good intentions” is the road to hell. (hitler’s desire to “cure racism” to do away with racial problems by “eliminating all other races” in survival of the fittest, comes to mind)

    In simplicity, the common cold was turned into a eugenics program.

    The “true believers” in the “ARA” will soon find this out, just as my daughters “in-laws”, who refused my company at family events, because I refuse to get vaccinated, both have been plagued with shingles and now have cancer.

    I am not qualified to speak about the overwhelming evidence of the horrors to come… others are collecting the data and showing the results, like Dr. Cole, a pathologist, lays out in a recent interview, how the spike proteins not only destroys the immune system, teaching the body how not to recognize it, resulting in long Covid… which results in the inability to fight off other SARS variance. And to destroy tissue, especially in the brain, where it forms “spongiform” cephalitis like mad cow disease.

    There has been a lot of good comments on this thread, I’d like to thank everyone for their well-thought-out contributions leading to a productive discussion. Gives me hope for the human race that reason will overcome the madness.

  • Max

    As an afterthought, here is tucker Carlson, who did a show on the possibility that the food supply is being altered or poisoned… Egg farms switching grain providers, result in chickens laying eggs again.

    I’ve also heard a report, that the reason they (WEF, Gates, etc.) want us to eat bugs, is that the fatty tissue of insects stores the vaccine and parasites efficiently. The insects are fed the weaponized products until the insect dies, then the bodies are dried out and ground up into a fine protein powder and introduced into processed foods, like breakfast cereals. (eaten without heating)

  • Edward

    Max wrote: “The earth has a virus, mankind. To control the disease and to save the earth, the herd must be thinned.

    This reminds me of the bleak future that our fearful leaders have presented to us over the past three or five decades.

    In the United States, we had come to expect our children to live better lives than we had lived. From the mid 19th century to the mid 20th century, expositions around the world would present visions of a better future, and I remember attending one of them in Montreal in 1967.

    These days, our fearful leaders tell us that the world will end in a heat death unless we solve global warming or climate change by a date uncertain (these dates keep changing each time the previous deadline approaches without solution). Our fearful leaders don’t lead by example, using energy at rates far greater than they require of the rest of us.

    We are told that we are now living in a “new normal.” We are told that government must control more and more of our lives, because in the future we are unable to take care of ourselves.

    For half a century, we have been told that there are too many people for the planet to support. That was five billion people ago, and still growing. Thin the herd? Clearly, our fearful leaders are not going to lead by example on this one, either.

    We are even told that we must get a poorly tested unapproved faux vaccine that in late 2021 we had been told was dangerous. Were there any tests on the faux vaccine between then and now to show safety? No. Both of these contradictory positions were and are part of The Science that is settled, emotional, and unquestionable. Where is the FDA’s requirements that what are sold or given to us to put into our bodies be both safe and effective? This faux vaccine appears to be neither, just like the “snake oil” that the FDA was formed to keep off the U.S. market and out of the U.S. healthcare system.

    These are the types of things that we get when we let the government run things, including The Science.

  • Cotour


    GP: “CDC Adds COVID-19 Vaccine to Routine Immunization Schedule for Children and Adolescents”

    “Once CDC approves it, our Department of Health can exercise its rule-making authority to add it to the healthcare and school schedule at any time. And now it’s official. The recommendation to include the experimental COVID vaccine was approved by the CDC together with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists on Thursday as they are bringing the COVID emergency declaration to an end.”

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