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Today’s blacklisted American: For too many, it ain’t my problem

Rick, stating the truth in Casablanca
Still asleep, and tragically, they refuse to wake up.

Last week I took a break from publishing my daily “Today’s blacklisted American” column. It is without doubt a depressing chore to detail day after day examples where power-hungry thugs smash their jackboots on the faces of innocent people, merely because those innocent people committed the horrible crime of disagreeing with thugs.

I found I needed that break. I also had sensed — from the overall decreasing interest by news aggregate sites in my column — that the news business, even the conservative news business, was becoming bored with these stories.

Worse, I sensed that many readers found these stories distasteful and wished to avoid them. Though I don’t give a rat’s ass that these ostriches (with their heads in the sand) were bothered, it was nonetheless depressing to sense such people existed, and nothing I did could ever penetrate their close-minded brains.

My post announcing this break sadly confirmed my worse fears.

First, I must note that almost all the comments to my post were supportive of my blacklist column and wanted it to continue. For that support I thank you all. It gives me some hope that there are many decent people out there.

However, there were a handful of comments which well illustrated the “It ain’t my problem” attitude that really dominates our culture. You see, the people who wrote to support me I think are a self-selected minority that happens to congregate to this website because they agree with it.

To change the terrible direction we are heading, leading to more tyranny and oppression, my columns have to at some point have some impact with those who don’t know or don’t care. Sadly, it appears those who don’t know or don’t care don’t wish to learn or want to remain uncaring.

For example, one person wrote this:

I skip the blacklist posts. “I’m a victim” posts don’t resonate with me at all. I see them as suggestions that the designated enemy is powerful and we are weak. If we are weak, then we need to build up strength and that doesn’t come from pointing at others but rather working on your own game.

This person first admits he doesn’t read my blacklist posts, then proceeds to declare he knows exactly what the posts are about, and criticizes this made-up content. Talk about close-mindedness!

These columns have never really been about victimhood. Their goal has been to show everyone exactly how pervasive, powerful, and oppressive the blacklisting culture has become, in order to make people finally recognize it exists instead of making believe it is a petty problem that can be ignored.

For you see, for decades now I have watched ordinary people look the other way whenever the left commits evil acts. Either they don’t want to know, or they consider such things irrelevant.

That evil however has never been irrelevant. It however now has become very powerful, because it is now beginning to impact millions, in the worst way. To look the other way now is no different than ignoring the screams of a woman during a rape. “Well, it ain’t my problem, someone else will deal with it, I have things to do that interest me more.”

Nor was this comment alone. Even someone who apparently is a supporter of my work said this:

I come here for the pictures and to hear what other people have to say about things. Politics has always been very boring to me.

Similarly, another regular reader added,

I must admit, I scroll past the political posts, they are mostly irrelevant to the world I live in.

Well, politics sure ain’t boring or irrelevant to John Staake, owner of Your American Flag, whose business carving wood sculptures of Old Glory was not only banned by Facebook, Spotify, and PayPal, so his business was crushed, PayPal has refused to release more than $35,000 of his earnings.

And that’s just one example of the more than a hundred I have documented since January, all of which were hardly boring or irrelevant to the victims.

Ignoring the obvious commission of evil because it bores you or it isn’t your problem is a perfect example of Charles F. Aked’s statement, “For evil to triumph good men need only do nothing.” All three of these commenters are typical examples of this, and despite their small number on this webpage, it seems to me that they actually dominate modern society. And I say this from direct experience. No matter how many times I point out actual examples of horrible oppression committed by the left, I find it literally impossible to get the disinterested to believe that oppression happened, or worse, to even care.

It is just too boring for them. Or it is irrelevant. “So what they came for that conservative. I’m not conservative so why should it worry me?”

Well, to you disinterested and ignorant souls, you better start caring. As this evil grows it will begin eating everything around it. Soon, there will be nobody left for it to eat, except for you.

Meanwhile, I will go on. I dislike writing about such evil, but for good to triumph, I am forced to do it. Someday maybe that effort will finally cause the blind among us to wake up.

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  • Lee Stevenson

    Bob…. You are turning into the chicken little ” the sky is falling in! ” Character you used to decry. As I have said, many many times before, and is something you as a historian should understand is that the pendulum always swings back. Things seem to be a bit too “woke” over there right now, but it will change.
    My comment regarding “it not effecting my world” stands… Here in Sweden we have the opposite problem, the far right are gaining ground. This also will change with time, and it is our jobs, as citizens of democratic countries to take a stand, advocate for what we believe is right, and in all honesty, accept if we lose an election, be it local or national, regroup, rethink, and put new ideas to the voters. ( No comments on your last election being “rigged” please… Trump turned out to be a car crash… Much to my disappointment… No surprise he lost to sleepy Joe… I actually think there were no winners possible… But you get another go in 4 years.. much like the UK and Boris… But I digress..)
    If reporting on this stuff pains you so much, then don’t. You are only singing to your own choir anyway. Perhaps start another blog for your political opinions, but I have to be honest, I come here for the space stuff, ( as every reader you get from John and David’s shows do!) , And the political venom just puts me off. I have the gonads to occasionally get involved in political discourse, but I generally come out of it not feeling good. Not because I am wrong, but because I know that I am basically falling out with folk who love space as much as me, and that I should never talk politics with.
    You are doing great work with this blog Bob… But seriously… A little less jack booted leftists , and a bit more Hubble, especially everything that is going on right now in the world of space… Might give us all a break…

  • Edward

    Gee, Robert. Why should we care what happens to other people. It isn’t as though it could ever happen to any of us. You are just being paranoid and exaggerate the situation.

    “Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you.” Pericles turned out to be wrong, especially here in America, which was built specifically so that we would be free from tyranny. That we would be free from eternal vigilance, as we elect others to be our watchmen. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who cleans up after the janitors?) (Oh, right. That’s our job.)

    It isn’t as though the authorities would ever dare, in this country of freedom and liberty, force us to shelter in place for fifteen days, then — in an inspired act of mission creep and indeterminate goals — have us stay at home for another 500 days too. That’s pure lunacy. No one would dare direct us to wear surgical masks whenever we wanted to go get groceries, see our doctor, work, or do any of the other necessary activities of life. That would be bat soup crazy. To be given papers in order to show that we were vaccinated with an unapproved but virtually required concoction is reminiscent of another country in another century, with unexpected and undesirable results, not a characteristic of America. And elections? Well, you have to admit that they cannot be tampered with, falsified, or fraudulent. Unless a Democrat such as Hillary Clinton loses, in which case that is the only possible explanation.

    And the hypocrisy you claim, “actual examples of horrible oppression committed by the left,” couldn’t happen here, where the courts and the government are on the side of We the People. My government-paid elementary school teacher told me so in civics class. You make it sound as though we live in the Soviet Union or NAZI Germany, where if you belong to “the party” you have special privileges. Inconceivable!

    This is the United States of America, by gum, and “government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” Our Supreme Court, our president, and even our elected representatives are all on our side, there to protect us from all evil, and none of them would ever do otherwise. Unless, perhaps, it was in service of “the party,” in which case corruption is a justifiable means that is necessary to reach the predetermined end. Because we all know that sometimes liberty and justice must be lost for some so that it is available to others, such as members of “the party.”

    We pledge allegiance to the party of the Democrats of America, and to the tyranny for which it stands, woke nation under Joe, indiversifiable, with liberty and justice for the obedient.

  • Mike Borgelt

    What Lee Stevenson considers “far right” would likely actually be “center left”. That said, Sweden has done well with the Chicom virus without destroying their citizen’s freedoms unlike the totalitarian thuggocracy of Australia where I live. Border closures between states, “lockdowns” on going (the term used to be used for prisoners in jails when there was trouble), our Constitution ignored, governments and media urging citizens to report others, all the trappings of dictatorship.

    I actually bothered to read the Australian Constitution a while ago and saw nothing about how it could be suspended during a State of Emergency, not that it admits that citizens have any rights at all and has few limits on government.

    My friends and I now know how it felt to be an ordinary German citizen in the 1930’s as the Nazis took power.

    Oh, yeah, Lee. Trump did pretty well as President, the election was clearly stolen and the current usurpers have no legitimacy and are running an ongoing train wreck. The future is looking bleak.

  • john hare

    “””I skip the blacklist posts. “I’m a victim” posts don’t resonate with me at all. I see them as suggestions that the designated enemy is powerful and we are weak. If we are weak, then we need to build up strength and that doesn’t come from pointing at others but rather working on your own game.””””

    Since you quoted me, I suppose I have some obligation to respond. I have dealt with numerous people with a narrow view of how things are and how they should be with all the problems being someone else’s fault. I have learned to make my point once and fade. Those looking to solve will look for answers without my further input. Those looking for scapegoats will continue to do so. In either case my time is better spent working the problems I can influence than trying to convince others. Those that seek shall find, and those that seek not will will find not.

    This is your private property Robert, and I will respect it as such, especially your comment rules. I can respect your work in many thing while seeing with my own eyes base problems with your world view. The value and odds of me changing it are low enough to not warrant further argument. If you need to win, I concede.

  • Lee Stevenson: As I said to another lefty (who happened to be a Democratic Party apologist), you continually make me think of a guard in a Nazi concentration camp, saying with utter sincerity as he escorts me to the gas chamber, “Have a nice day!”

    If that analogy is too harsh, then let’s say you would have been at a minimum one of those people who looked the other way in Germany. It didn’t effect your world. You weren’t Jewish, Why should you care?

    And you still haven’t admitted to the coercive nature of the socialist ideology you love so dearly. Whenever I point it out to you, you suddenly stop commenting for a few days, and then return discussing some side issue, hoping we will forget.

  • Doubting Thomas

    Robert – Your frustration comes through in your post. I think many of us feel your same frustration and maybe a little fear, the kind of fear that Mike talked about and that I expect people in Poland and Czechoslovakia felt in the late 1940’s.

    I don’t agree with Lee Stevenson that the pendulum always comes back and even if it does it may take 70 years or 400 years depending on the event you are looking at. I’m not sure of the point Edward is making, I think he is being sarcastic.

    I urge you to keep at it. Your posts about space and space technology are the one bright thing I look for in my daily internet sweep.

  • Todd Brown

    Please do not stop posting about the insidious nature of the woke left and the Democrat party as a whole. It informs those who bury their head in the sand and those who don’t watch main stream media.
    As you correctly point out the Germans back in the 30’s and 40’s who felt well, I’m not a Jew so why should I care are exactly the same people today who say, “Well, it’s not my problem….I don’t care for politics.” These people are one in the same…..sadly.
    I love your blog. I don’t agree with everything you say but, I’ll fight for your right to say it.
    Again, sadly the left would rather you, I and others like us just fall in line and would like nothing more then to silence different and dissenting opinions.
    Stay Strong….Never be silent.
    Todd Brown

  • Louie Bageanis

    Bob you are right. Your German guard example is perfect . The left have lost all sense of patriotism and have become anti-American. They have been anti life for a long time and if you’re willing to be anti-life you’re willing to do most anything. We must remember our rights are given by God, and cannot be taken away but most of all we should never forget God. I know there is a spirit of Awakening in this country that’s coming and has been building for quite a while. Sometimes the good and just are focused on doing just that a little too much and Evil gets a lead early in the race. But it is true good will always prevail over evil, have faith and everyone do what you must to stay free. We are winning. When it is time to fight good is always ready.

  • John Fisher

    I for one read every Blacklist post and share them with my personal circle. Please keep it up. People need to see the information on what is happening to others.

  • George

    I posted this once before, and it bears repeating. Apathy is all that is necessary for evil to triumph.

    By Martin Niemöller
    First they came for the Communists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Communist
    Then they came for the Socialists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Socialist
    Then they came for the trade unionists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a trade unionist
    Then they came for the Jews
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Jew
    Then they came for me
    And there was no one left
    To speak out for me.

  • pawn


    Some people are busy battling Heinlein’s ‘bad luck” and are saving their energy for the battles they might win.

    I’m sorry but I find the “Outrage Parade” exhausting. Does that make me a bad person?

  • Concerned

    Thank you for keeping the light on the insidious people that are working so hard to undermine our culture. Those that ignore this threat at this point are either ignorant of history or willfully blind to it.

  • Mark

    Bob, I do appreciate your passion to chronicle blacklisted Americans.
    I remember reading 36 years ago about how our wonderful constitution was constructed and the rights it’s enshrined such as free speech. That knowledge meant a great deal to me since I had sworn an oath to defend it.
    However, in my opinion the constitution in today’s America has been emaciated and is either on life support, or has already died but the attending doctor won’t announce time of death. I mourn that, but that is what our current situation seems like to me.

    From a stoicalperspective, one can plausibly assert that ‘Free Speech’ in general has already been murdered, and Bob is writing a weekly column describing in detail the stories of specific homicides. So one could say your columns are like obituaries that hopefully will be instructive for future generations.

    There is a ‘Spirit of the Age’ which does not recognize freedom of speech, and that Spirit has been percolating in the west for a long time. In North America, first it was Canadian elites who swung the wrecking ball. Here is a portion of a column from Mark Steyn in 2010 writing about the death of free speech in Canada – Steyn relates the comments of “the eminent Canadian “feminist” Susan Cole appearing on U.S. TV to support the protesters’ shutdown of Miss Coulter’s Ottawa speech:
    “We don’t have a First Amendment, we don’t have a religion of free speech,” she explained patiently. “Students sign off on all kinds of agreements as to how they’ll behave on campus, in order to respect diversity, equity, all of the values that Canadians really care about. Those are the things that drive our political culture. Not freedoms, not rugged individualism, not free speech. It’s different, and for us, it works.”
    Does it? You rarely hear it put quite that bluntly—”Freedoms”? Ha! Who needs ’em? . . . “

    So a decade later in the US the philosophy of the ‘eminent Canadian feminist’ is now without reservation the governing ethos of our ruling political and economic elites. The First Amendment is ignored.
    Bob, again thank you for these columns. I’ll try not to be so fatalistic, and will hold out hope that some semblance of free speech can be saved.

  • Mark: If I have said it once I have said a thousand times, freedom can only be maintained by action. Rather than bow and comply, people have to resist, to refuse to back down, to never apologize, to speak up, to defy the orders of these storm troopers.

    To maintain freedom of speech means that everyone, not just me and the steadily shrinking brave souls in the academic and intellectual world, has to speak out forcefully and loudly, every time some thug tries to silence someone else.

    Note I did not say people should speak out when someone tries to silence them personally. No, we have to speak out when someone else is being harmed. And we need to publicly support those to do this as well.

    We need a large roaring crowd telling these thugs to back off and let everyone live freely again. A few voices in the press can’t do it alone.

  • Again, sadly the left would rather you, I and others like us just fall in line and would like nothing more then to silence different and dissenting opinions.

    Because in their hubris-filled eyes, only they are Normal … and those who dissent are The Other, who must be be suppressed lest, in the words of Mason Profitt regarding hangman Ima Freak …

    It didn’t take them long to try him in their court of law
    He was guilty then of thinking a crime much worse than all
    They sentenced him to die so his seed of thought can’t spread
    And infect the little children; that’s what the law had said

    What gives them the power to make that happen, however, is the belief within Western societies – even among many citizens who call themselves conservative or libertarian – that government is to be both trusted and expected to right every perceived wrong, and establish whatever the “greater good”/”common good” is defined by the culture on any given day.

    Even if the “greater good”/”common good” is not good for you, or your neighbor (or your Naybor).

    This is the basis for collectivism in its many forms, from the social democracies of the West, to many of the authoritarian/totalitarian-led societies we know and loathe. What obscures this reality from clear view, is that for every actual tyrant, there are hundreds of well-meaning, self-assured, myopic busybodies who give life to the words of C. S. Lewis:

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.

    (The last line of Lewis’ quote illustrates how such busybodies are susceptible to being as/more guilty of bigotry, than those that they exhort to “check their privilege” on the basis of surface appearances.)

    The fallacy here, is that righting wrongs and establishing “good” is NOT the reason governments exist, if you listen to our founding citizens of this nation (emphasis added):

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.– THAT TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their JUST powers from the consent of the governed

    Not just any powers that sound good to us, but JUST powers … powers that do not work against the reason government is instituted: TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS..

    The collectivist focus ignores the differences from individual to individual …. as long as the “average citizen” is doing better, that is all that matters to the honest collectivist (as opposed to the dishonest). The focus on securing those rights is lost in a collectivist society … which includes the social democracies/technocracies of the West.

    OTOH, if securing those rights is maintained as the primary mission of government – with every agency both evaluated as to its worth, and conducting its business, in accordance with that focus – busybody behavior within them would be diminished because the operatives would have their “eyes on the prize”, or be more easily detected and interdicted when they do not.

    Government policy would begin to embody the principle from the Hippocratic Oath … “first, do no harm”; its operatives would be less inclined to intervene in areas where they lack the insight to assure a successful outcome for each of us.

    Under this paradigm, identity politics would be reduced to a binary question: are the unalienable rights of a particular person being respected, or not?

    It is because we have forgotten that respect for life and INDIVIDUAL liberty is the primary mission of our public institutions, that the busybodies now have both the power to coerce us, and the well-fed hubris to think they should do so – to the point of turning dissenters into less-than-human Others, because they Know Better.

    Even when it is likely that they will disrupt our lives, in a manner reminiscent of a myopic bull in a china shop.

    This is why I don’t consider any form of collectivist governance as benign, even if it isn’t marching under the Hammer and Sickle.

  • Icepilot

    I fully support your efforts, Bob. Don’t let these miserable _____(insert pejorative of choice here) get away with it!
    I think that these attacks upon our freedoms have a cumulative effect that will eventually result in folks just saying no. That’s already the case in 99% of rural America.
    If you want to add a little diversity, perhaps including a few that highlight the perpetrators vice the victims would be useful.
    And thanks for all that you do. Yours is the space related website that I check every day.

  • wayne

    Michael Knowles / Michael Malice
    “Anarchy and the White Pill” (august 6. 2021)

  • Robert Pratt

    I find it a sign of depleted or missing intellect to say the issue doesn’t matter when all a person wants to do is see pictures. Is that person unaware that the blacklisting and non-government censorship is preventing the posting of the pictures he likes too? My engineer brother told me that he belongs a “War Birds” group on Facebook and that the social media giant keeps removing any photos of historic airplanes that have Nazi symbols such as the swastika on the planes. Good luck with those photos you want to see…

  • Robert Pratt

    And now to Lee who wrote: “… you as a historian should understand is that the pendulum always swings back.” What in the world do you think makes that “pendulum” swing back except for opposition and action? Do you truly believe things simply right themselves in a vacuum absent friction?

  • G. M.

    Think of it like the Left does. The left is cohesive. It has unity. Those against them do not.

    The left has esprit de corps.

    Those who oppose want to let George do it.

    If all you care about is number one, you’ll get picked off one by one until there are no more.

    The left knows there’s strength in numbers. Those who oppose want to be left alone.

    It doesn’t take Jimmy the Greek to figure the odds on that one.

  • Mitch S.

    Bob Z wrote (Regarding Lee Stevenson):
    “let’s say you would have been at a minimum one of those people who looked the other way in Germany. It didn’t effect your world. ”
    Ouch! A bit of “godwin’s law” in action.
    While the analogy does show the depth of your concern and sense of urgency, I think it’s poorly applied to Lee and in general is counterproductive.
    I see Lee’s comment “it not effecting my world” referring to his not living in the US and not wanting to barge in on internal US affairs.
    It could be pointed out to him that should the US swing leftist it will affect Sweden along with other Western nations, so he should have a more active interest, but to imply that he is a person who would wink at genocide seems like a violation of your own rules.

    But why should I butt in?
    Because I feel such an argumentative approach is counterproductive.
    The goal of this “battle” is not to rile up a mob to smash left wing tech’s servers or chase “the lefties” back to where they came from.
    We are not fighting the British, the Democrats are American citizens (for the most part).
    This battle is to reach people’s minds (something the “Founding Fathers” were occupied with as well).
    Think Ronald Reagan. Sure Jimmy Carter’s failures helped, but it was Reagan’s solid belief in the American Project along with his ability to communicate, exuding a positive attitude, that made him so effective.
    I think your “blacklisted Americans” posts are vital – to provide multiple examples of how the traditions of tolerance and lawful Constitutional rights are eroding and being undermined. But don’t let your frustration get the better of you.
    As you wrote “Someday maybe that effort will finally cause the blind among us to wake up.” Yes, I hope so, and there are positive signs, but it’s going to take patience and perseverance.

    PS. About whet “john hare” wrote ““I’m a victim” posts don’t resonate with me at all”.
    The majority of “victims” in the blacklist posts are not crying out and surrendering. Most are fighting back, some successfully.
    But we need to be alerted to how many people these days have to fight for rights that were once taken for granted.

  • Don’t let these miserable _____(insert pejorative of choice here) get away with it!

    Agreed, Icepilot. To you, to Robert, to all of us …

    … Illegitimi non carborundum.

  • Scott Becker

    Bob keep all your postings but maybe get some more help. I’m sure a college student would volunteer editing or what have.

  • Mitch S: Point very well taken. I will say however that I have spent decades trying to “reach people’s minds,” including Lee’s. I can’t count the number of times I’ve written something like this to Americans not unlike him:

    “If you are a decent, ordinary American who has for years aligned yourself with the Democratic Party, please listen: This is not the party you think it is. You need to recognize that the party you support no longer believes in freedom of speech, in the Bill of Rights, in equal treatment before the law. It instead believes in apartheid, in the use of power for political ends, in might over right, in bigotry.

    “Please reconsider your support.”

    And I have always written this after documenting some egregious abuse of power or corruption by the Democratic Party.

    As far as I can remember, none of these attempts to reach these people’s minds has ever born fruit. Among the ordinary liberal Democratic Party voters from my Jewish, New York culture, including relatives, all have closed minds and have never been willing to simply just consider what I’ve written..

    As you and others have noted, I am quite frustrated by this. More and more I drifting to the place described today by Ace at Ace of Spaces in describing one story:

    Director of The Plot Against the President (and John Milius’ daughter) Amanda Milius says she’s sick of leftwingers telling her they will excuse her abhorrent views and tolerate her.

    She’s decided to no longer tolerate them.

    A decision more and more of us are making. No more bleating about friendship and kinship meaning more than politics.

    You want a cold civil war?

    Fine. You got one.

    I hate that possibility, but at some point one has to take a stand when others refuse to.

  • Lee Stevenson

    @Mitch S., Thank you for understanding my standpoint. I do not live in the US, I have no existential dread from the current direction of politics. I think things will all balance out… Sometimes it swings in the direction I agree with, sometimes it don’t! The only thing I would disagree with is that you have ( as most Americans do ) an over inflated opinion on US influence over here. 50, 30 years ago… Perhaps, but the US is no longer considered as a shining light by most of Europe. This is the subject of another discussion.

    @Bob…. Shame upon you! To compare me with some Nazi, to dare to say I would turn my eyes the other way.. you are so very deeply wrong in your opinion of me, I have never, ever in my life turned away from challenging bullying or bigotry when confronted with it! Your comments regarding my nature are at the same time deeply hurtful and indicate to me that you need a sit down and a stiff drink!

    I stop commenting on threads when they drop off the bottom of my feed. If this bothers you, sort the mobile view of this website out.

    Let me ask you a question… How much do you care about what is currently going on in Swedish politics? I can guess the answer is “not much”….. (Correct me if I am wrong… Without doing a Google search!… ) The far right here is having a great old time, all anti semitism and racist, and I am on the front line, with my socialist brothers and sisters campaigning against the Nazi scum.
    Your political views are based on nothing further than the east and west coast of the good ol’ USofA, the world is much bigger than that little chunk of earth to our left side, and that chunk becomes more irrelevant to the rest of the world every year.

    You fret all you like about the coming dark ages in YOUR greatest democracy on earth… ( Think about that statement..) , I personally will continue my personal fight for freedom of speech, human rights,.and democracy.

  • Lee Stevenson

    @Bob .. quote “all have closed minds and have never been willing to simply just consider what I’ve written..”

    Have you ever considered they have considered….. And found you wrong?

  • Lee: Thank you for proving my point.

    I have just written about 130 posts outlining some ugly behavior of the left in the United States, and your response was, “eh, big deal, I don’t live there so I don’t care.”

    Now you want to make believe all those examples are fantasies of mine. You claim you stand up to bullies and thugs, but you sure don’t sound like someone I would want to depend on in such a fight.

    As I said, thank you for proving my point.

  • Lee Stevenson

    Quote “you continually make me think of a guard in a Nazi concentration camp, saying with utter sincerity as he escorts me to the gas chamber, “Have a nice day!”

    If that analogy is too harsh, then let’s say you would have been at a minimum one of those people who looked the other way in Germany”

    Bob, you are an offensive, narrow minded fool.
    I would say that this would be my last comment here, but I can’t… I have to stand up for what I believe in, and I refuse to let bigotry like yours keep the free people of the world outside the US down.

  • Lee Stevenson

    And Bob…. Would you mind addressing the rest of my points if you feel like you can even give a reply without a shame face?

  • Lee Stevenson

    Quote Bob “Now you want to make believe all those examples are fantasies of mine”
    Errrm…. When did I actually say this?
    Oh, I didn’t…. Your now making things up to prove me wrong…
    I disagree with pretty much everything you say in these posts, they just don’t apply to the country I live in.

  • Lee: How am I bigoted by finding YOU weak when it comes to facing bigotry and oppression? Please explain that. I am not attacking all Swedes. I am not even criticizing two people. I am specifically calling you out on what your own statements imply to me.

    I also don’t care that I might have hurt your feelings because of what I have written. I get attacked and insulted all the time, in public, including getting blackballed myself, far more than you can imagine. It goes with the territory of being a public writer. I deal with it and fight on.

    Your written comments have clearly indicated that you prefer to look the other way when it comes to examples of oppression. If you don’t like it that others see you that way, either you can consider that their may be some truth to their impressions, and thus you need to do some rethinking, or you can complain about your hurt feelings and learn nothing.

    I suspect you will take the latter. I am sorry for this. But then, such a response has been par for the course for decades from leftists, which is why we are where we are now, witnessing the death of western civilization.

  • Lee Stevenson: You claimed my position was wrong. Yet, what in those 130 blacklisting posts was wrong? Please point it out. Did those people not get harmed? Was I making it up? Was not oppression and evil not being committed?

  • Lee Stevenson

    Oooops, I meant I AGREE with the posts…. I’m all for freedom of speech, expression, and viewpoints… It’s just your highlights don’t effect me, any more than anything I posted about a Swedish party expressing whatever would enter your view…
    I mean really…. It seems like your “so called ” left ( not my left!) Are causing havoc over there…. It sucks to be you, I’m so glad we don’t have the same problems here… Should I cry over your problems, or look after my own. You have the greatest democracy on earth… Sort your own crap out, I’ve got m own crap to sort out.

  • pzatchok

    Mr Z.

    Sorry of my not posting in your thread causes you to worry or be upset for any reason.

    You just tend to say everything I am thinking already and better than me.

    I do use your research as examples for people at work.

    The only bar/club I go to is for decedents of Eastern Europe. And everyone there already understands the direction America is going. since their parents and grandparents told them everything about the old country.

  • Lee Stevenson

    @bob… Quote “Lee Stevenson: You claimed my position was wrong. Yet, what in those 130 blacklisting posts was wrong? Please point it out. Did those people not get harmed? Was I making it up? Was not oppression and evil not being committed?”

    Sorry, I meant I agree, not disagree… I’m no “woke” idiot that gets offended by the flight of a sparrow…
    You know me better than this argument… I believe in absolute free speech, and let the public sort it out… I even believe in your right to call me a possible nazi sympathiser, but I will give you that point… It’s an easy one… You are a Jew…

    Anyways up Bob… To get back to the meat of the discussion… I honestly don’t think things are as bad as they seem to you… It seems things are all screwed up over there, but it’s no where near as bad over here.. and with no sign our right or left are going to swing “USA” style to some kind of extreme… At least not as far as I can see.

    My points still stand. I think you are being pessimistic without any good reason… And I think a good single malt whisky, with just a litteral 2 drops of water would do you a power of good!

    ( By the way, I’m not a Nazi… I’m very much not a Nazi, I have fought Nazis on the street. I am also pro Palestinian…. Yes, I’ve read your papers, and still find the pro palatine argument persuasive. )

  • Lee Stevenson

    Ok, a few hours of much needed shut eye later, and nope… I didn’t dream it, Bob Zimmerman REALLY did just liken me to a Nazi, not a regular one, but a concentration camp guard. Classy.

    Anyway, I am going to enjoy the sunshine and the company of my children, on a rare day off. If you can tear yourself away from crying over (quote)”witnessing the death of western civilization.” , (Drama queen much?) , And perhaps actually address any of the points I made/asked instead of juvenile name calling, I’m willing to engage in a conversation. If you want to sit and wallow in your delusion that the whole world is going to hell in a hand basket, and that if someone the other side of the world has slightly more pressing problems than the barmy US then they are a Nazi, power to your elbow Bob. I’m all about freedom of speech, thought, love, and light, and you are free to use those freedoms exactly how you wish.

  • wayne

    Please clear this up for me—of what Country are you a citizen? I know you live in Sweden, but IIRC you were born in England (?) and eventually wound up working & living in Sweden.
    So, did you start out as a British citizen in 1971?, and how does that all work? Is this a European Union thing, or what?

  • wayne

    Please clear this up for me—of what Country are you a citizen? I know you live in Sweden, but IIRC you were born in England (?) and eventually wound up working & living in Sweden.
    So, did you start out as a British citizen in 1971?, and how does that all work? Is this a European Union thing, or what?

  • wayne

    excuse the double post, my mouse is hyper-sensitive.

    Jordan Peterson –
    “A Deep Knowledge Of Evil Will Straighten You Out….”

    Excerpted from:
    “Identity politics and the Marxist lie of white privilege” (2017)
    University of British Columbia Free Speech Club

  • Gary


    Surely you know that many (perhaps a majority) of the leaders and supporters of the Palestinian movement were and are vigorous Nazi supporters. I’m not talking about the people who today are labeled “Nazi’s” because they support conservative policies, but the honest-to-goodness Hitlerite, “Final Solution” Nazis.

  • wayne

    glad you brought that up.
    I was going to link to a clip on the Grand Mufti & Hitler, but the one I want, is now age-restricted.

  • Lee Stevenson

    I am more than happy to clear up the questions asked.

    I am a UK citizen, with Swedish residency. I keep my UK passport, but pay only Swedish taxes, I am considering getting duel citizenship, and doing the same for my kids, mostly for ease of travel. I don’t really care where I am considered a citizen. Where I lay my hat is my home. As long as I pay my way… What does it really matter.

    Regarding Swedish Nazis, I am not talking your loony left, I mean genuine swastika wearing Nazis. I had a couple of fist fights with members of there ideology 20 years ago when they were more visible. ( I dislike Nazis, they killed my grandfather).

    These days they have morphed into “the Swedish democratic party”, still racist, still VERY anti semetic, still conducting acts of violence against Jews and black and brown people. And unfortunatly getting a lot of support from the native Swedes, who tend to be, although well hidden, extremely racist and, hmmm… Can I say extreme Christian.. to the exclusion of any other ideology.

    I battle this bigotry every day,.I’m too old for fist fighting these days, but will never stop in my fight against genuine “national socialism”, and this is why Bobs comment regarding me being anything like a Nazi riles me so much. I fight my fight on my ground. Forgive me for not caring too much about your ground. I have my hands full here.
    Go to

    To see the soft face of real Nazis, alive, today,.and in europe… And remember how that went last time….
    ( I still say shame on you Bob…. I have never.been so insulted in my life… I battle every day for freedom. because I have issues with Israel policy, and don’t take much notice of US issues, to liken me to a concentration camp guard…. Shame upon you!)

  • Lee Stevenson

    You can paste that link into Google translate… It might be easier for most of you to read!

  • wayne

    just trying to figure this out—-
    So, you’re actually a British citizen with residency in Sweden.
    –Are you allowed to vote in Sweden?

  • Lee Stevenson

    Call me old fashioned, but I believe people should be allowed to live where they have lived for millennia. I disagree with the splitting of the Indian continent into India and Pakistan, probably our greatest chance of a nuclear exchange… I also disagree with the creation of Israel on someone else’s front lawn. It’s there, let’s say they deserve it, but even reading all of bobs essays, I still disagree with the wholesale stealing of territory from Palestine… I don’t blame them for being annoyed.
    Hitler was a vegetarian. Just because a Nazi believed in one thing doesn’t make it evil, it’s the evil things the Nazis believed in that make them wrong. Palestine is a complex issue, but Israel seems to have little consideration for the opinions of the people that live there.

  • Lee Stevenson

    @wayne… Good question actually… I am allowed to vote in local elections, but.not in the national elections.
    Don’t ask me why, but it’s so.
    The however have a huge influence on the nationals,.so my votes genuinely count, both locally and nationally.

  • wayne

    TURN: Washington’s Spies: ( AMC 2017)
    ‘The Surrender’ (aka “Play, Yankee Doodle….”)

  • wayne

    Here in the USA, you can jump the border, be given an ID and an EBT card, and then you can vote democrat as many times as you like, in any election.
    –> it’s all illegal, but our Ruler’s don’t care a whole lot.
    (In the Alternate Multiverse, there exists a reality where all-the-usual-suspects, have already been dragged from their castles and shot.)

  • wayne

    Q: Do you vote in British elections?

  • Edward_2

    Disingenuous “Lee Stevenson”, if Israel/Zionism were “the problem”, then Muslims would be living in Peace and Tolerance with NON-Zionists…

    ie. Bahais, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Zoroastrians and fellow Muslims ie. Sunnis, Shiites, Wahabbis, Salifis.

    But Radical Islam is at War with the entire World – including fellows Muslims. That’s why Muslims are fleeing Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and flooding into Western Europe – including Sweden – making Malmo the Rape Capital of Europe.

    “Sweden rape: Most convicted attackers foreign-born, says TV”

  • wayne

    I sincerely get a kick out of you, even when your not-correct!

    What is the time-difference between the US and Sweden?

    “Palestine,” I will leave it to others more articulate to expound on why your view of this particular piece of ‘history,’ is faulty.

    Ref –“people should be allowed to live where they have lived for millennia.”
    [editorial comment-sounds like a wordy bumper sticker.]
    Q: Just exactly how far back are you willing to apply this concept, and exactly what are you prepared to do or allow, to make it real? (and I’m not talking about ‘palestine,’ there’s a whole big crazy World out there….)

    I know you are indifferent to my video links, but this is pretty cool, and it speaks to your sensibilities, I think… (While I think this stuff is high-art, I know Mr. Z. does not favor these made-up, concept videos, so not wasting an evening-pause suggestion. Enjoy!)

    Yes (live) –
    It can happen

  • Gary

    Lee, it’s not just a matter of “Hitler was a vegetarian, that doesn’t make being a vegetarian evil.” It’s more of the “Hitler was right and all the Jews should be exterminated.” The swastika wearing Nazis you fought it the street (and I admire that), would find many supporters and sympathizers among the Palestinians you support today. And that’s not just the Grand Mufti in 1944, it’s the current Palestinian leadership.

  • Edward_2

    Here is a 1:19m Youtube of a newsreel documenting a sit-down meeting between national SOCIALIST Hitler and his ally the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

  • Lee Stevenson

    .. I live on GMT +1, I have real difficulty figuring out timezones over there… I have to Google any given us time to figure it out, and sometimes that fails!

    Regarding where people should be allowed to live,.I think it’s time to have a look at the lines drawn up in colonist times… They obviously don’t work, ( again,.look at Pakistan and India…) ,. arbitrary lines drawn by Western powers, taking no interest in how communities lived and functioned before western intervention. It’s not an easy subject to approach, but I believe it’s one worth investing in.
    Sweden is not a bad example for everything we.are discussing here. The indigenous peoples in the very north of Sweden have only relatively recently been given there own rights to herd deer, and live like they have for millennia… Across what is now Finland, Sweden and Norway.

    America, Canada, Australia.. and indeed the middle East… All have people who do not recognize the lines drawn up by Western Europe by white men with maps.
    Take the Kurds… Great allies of the west, mostly forgotten by us… They have lived in the northern part of the middle East for millennia, but nobody thought about drawing lines that include them. It’s a tough nut, but cracking it is absolutely the key to peace in the world.

    The other aspect to my point regarding Sweden is that, although “neutral”, they supplied Nazi Germany with high quality steel products during the second world war…. It’s a dirty little secret that most Swedes would prefer not to talk about, but they were fully aware that Hitler had battle plans drawn up for the invasion of Sweden, but did not bother, because the Sweden supplied the resources he considered valuable on the “free” market.

    History is a messy mess, but many of the problems in the world today could be solved by having a good look at the injustice of the past, and at least trying to make amends.

  • Lee Stevenson

    @Gary, of course they would. Nazis hated Jews,.and so do the people that Israel is taking land from….even if for totally different reasons.

    Hindu and Christian folk have a big problem with Islam ( and this atheist does!) , But all for different reasons…. Just because one ideology has something in common with another , it doesn’t mean the ideology is the same.

  • Lee Stevenson

    @wayne, no I cannot vote in the UK elections, apparently they have a 15 year cut off… So I am essentially voteless when it comes to general elections. This annoys me, but I am sure that the work I put in to promote my socialist, environmentally friendly, and with free speech at the front viewpoint more than makes up for my lack of one vote….

    Let’s be honest, you Trumpers have been quibbling about a possible tiny amount of fraud in a country with the greatest oversite of electoral process in the world…
    In any normal time or space the electorial result would be accepted…. Like it was when trump won. There was no more election rigging in that election than the latest one. Clutching at straws is just that. Clutching at straws.
    As the so proclaimed ” greatest democracy in the world”., You guys sure didn’t look like it this year!

  • MadRocketSci

    Mr. Zimmermann,

    Thanks for your blacklisted American posts. It’s a depressing subject, but it’s also important to document the abuse. In any future that doesn’t involve the total defeat and death of humanity at the hands of these would-be slave-masters, it’s important to remember what has been done and not allow these mendacious chameleons to skate away from the tyranny they attempted to foist on us. You may never reach *them*, but you’ll reach people who aren’t trying to rationalize evil, now and in the future.

    I don’t comment as much on the scientific posts, but I probably should. It takes more effort to have something constructive to say about something intricate and interesting. I think it also points at a bit of a danger that I see other conservative bloggers fall into where it does end up being all-outrage-all-the-time. I’ve heard it referred to as “positive” and “negative” identity. It’s important to clearly declare what you are against, but also important not to forget what you are for. Holding onto the “positive identity”, even when taking a stand against the evil being done to us is important: That’s how we keep our creative potential – how we can keep learning and growing and building. Hard to do when we’re heading towards some kind of civil war or tyranny, but that’s the game. Smiling when we’re being punched in the collective face continually by outrageous bullies is unnatural, but IMO we’ll need the ability to work *for* something to have the resources to draw on in the struggle ahead, and to rally people to our side.

  • MDN


    I fully support continuing this series. I know it is hard, and I know as a reader it is a bit depressing, but it IS important. We must remember this time as when sanity does return we need this for our institutional memory.

    Those who are ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it. I often feel this entire cancel culture phenomena is an example of this because we have erased the horrors of the mid 20th century from our collective consciousness to the point that very few understand or appreciate what true tyranny looks like anymore.

    Two suggestions:

    1. Perhaps reduce the frequency to just once a week in a compendium format. This will keep it in our faces as we need, just metered back a bit.

    2. Please organize the collection under a single link somewhere. I often forward these to friends and family and having a single link to the litany of intolerance would be most useful.

    Finally, on behalf of myself and I’m sure most of your readers, THANKS!!!! As I said this is important work and I very much appreciate the effort and emotional energy you invest in it!

  • Lee Stevenson

    It is very nice to see unfamiliar faces poking in and adding their support. While I might very much disagree sometimes with our host and the “regulars”, I also appreciate very much that we have this forum to disagree upon. I try and throw a buck or 2 into the pot here when I can, and I suggest everyone do the same, if they can.

    It is actually refreshing to have a forum where you can speak your mind…. Without fear of being banned because of one’s opinion. I wish there were a few more genuine socialists here, but I don’t mind being the “token” European leftist.

    This blog is actually an important voice in the cancel culture world that the US seems to be in right now. I support it , ( when I can ), and I hope everyone else that gets value from this site returns that value!
    ( I am not a Nazi)

  • MDN: If you plug the words “Today’s” and “blacklisted” into the search box on BtB, you will get a list of all the stories. The url of that search can be sent to anyone, and provide them in one place the full list.

  • Edward_2

    Lee Stevenson @ August 10, 2021 at 9:59 am said…

    “( I am not a Nazi)”

    L..S. couldn’t afford the membership dues.

    Remember 9/11.

  • Edward

    The left had complained and railed against McCarthyism, but they now embrace it themselves. In the 1950s, Congress needed a hearing in order to discover how deeply communism was seeping into government and America, but today it is visible to everyone that it is widespread in every area that matters. No hearings necessary. Indeed, Congress recently held a hearing to see how deeply freedom was ingrained inside the Capitol last January.

    Communism is so deeply ingrained that there is not even a name for what is happening, unlike calling the 1950s search for communists “McCarthyism.”

    Robert Zimmerman, your postings show how widespread that communist and socialist thinking has spread throughout our once-free society. It is appalling how quickly it spread, too. No more Fabian socialism, it is an outright takeover of our once-great country.

    Just as in socialist and communist countries, the deaths of tens of thousands is no big deal. Instead, Cuomo harassed a few women, and that is what upsets the left. Cuomo should have been forced to resign over the deaths that he caused, but the left does not have their priorities straight. Bad as unwanted under-the-shirt action is, ten thousand deaths is worse. He apologized to his few harassment victims, not to the tens of thousands of families of those he cause to die. For the left, mass homicide is OK, but harassment is the more horrific crime.

    Jester Naybor wrote: “The fallacy here, is that righting wrongs and establishing ‘good’ is NOT the reason governments exist, if you listen to our founding citizens of this nation

    How true. The institution of government was created for three purposes:
    1) Defend the populace from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
    2) Peaceably resolve disputes as a disinterested third party.
    3) Stay out of the way of the populace.

    All three of these purposes supports the protection of our rights (natural or God given). Even the Preamble of the U.S. Constitution informs us that government has only these three purposes:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union [purpose 1], establish Justice [purpose 2], insure domestic Tranquility [purpose 1], provide for the common defence [purpose 1], promote the general Welfare [purpose 1], and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity [purpose 3], do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    Robert Pratt wrote: “My engineer brother told me that he belongs a ‘War Birds’ group on Facebook and that the social media giant keeps removing any photos of historic airplanes that have Nazi symbols such as the swastika on the planes.

    This is a sneaky way to rewrite history, keeping us ignorant of the past and thus doomed to repeat it, as MDN pointed out. Remove the references to the Nationalist Socialist German Worker’s Party, and soon no one remembers them or that they were socialists. It is not well publicized that the Democrats are and always were the racists, the party having been founded specifically and explicitly to defend the institution of slavery. The KKK was formed by Democrats to prevent Republicans from taking office, and beating down the black population was a secondary mission. Democrats were responsible for the Trail of Tears, Jim Crow laws, and the internment of Americans of Japanese descent during WWII. Democrats opposed civil rights until President Johnson pointed out that they could use it to the disadvantage of the black population and the advantage of the Democratic Party. For years, the Democratic Party favored the Nazi Party, until it became politically expedient to stop favoring them in public. But these facts are well hidden, even more hidden than those photos of Nazi planes.

    Mitch S. wrote: “Ouch! A bit of ‘godwin’s law’ in action.

    Are we supposed to not learn from history? Are we to not prevent a reenactment? Hasn’t Godwin’s law been used for decades in order to silence those who point out that we are repeating it in America? As MadRocketSci said: “… it’s important to remember what has been done and not allow these mendacious chameleons to skate away from the tyranny they attempted to foist on us.” This applies to Nazis, Democrats, socialist, communists, and other tyrants.

    Robert Zimmerman,
    I suspect that MDN was hoping that you could place these as a bullet in you section “Behind The Black Archives” in the right column.

  • Edward wrote, “I suspect that MDN was hoping that you could place these as a bullet in you section “Behind The Black Archives” in the right column.”

    Hm. That is a software task I can’t do. I’ll ask my web guy if it can be done.

  • wayne

    Ref– “…you Trumpers have been quibbling about a possible tiny amount of fraud…”
    (Ok— orange-man bad, blah blah blah. ‘”Come on man. corn-pop don’t play that.”)
    Trump is many things, but one thing he’s not, is an America hater. The same cannot be said for the un-loyal opposition. They not only hate America, they hate 1/2 of the population, and given the chance I have not doubt they would kill, us, all.) ((It always and forever, ends with barbed-wired and death-camps.))

    Historically, the “fraud” rate in elections has been less than 1% which includes blatant fraud, lost, spoiled, and o/w ruined ballots. (and given that in the USA we don’t have a “national” election, we have a series of elections within States.)
    Trump took the left by total surprise in 2016 and the left was NEVER going to let that happen again.
    Starting in 2018, various democrat controlled States began changing their election laws. Most of these changes were implemented by administrative fiat, in contradiction to the Constitution. (only State Legislatures can change election laws within a State.)

    Now, it’s presented as-if the 2020 election was the most secure and accurate in history, and that is just not true.
    Don’t (expletive) on my leg, and tell me it’s raining.

  • wayne

    William Mandel Denounces HUAC:
    “This Collection of Judases”
    May 1960 HUAC Testimony

    spoiler alert– he was a communist, but this is how you deal with “government.”

  • Lee, you said that Trump turned out to be a car crash

    More like the winner of a demolition derby, exposing his opponents as the clunkers that they are … in a manner reminiscent of Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack exposing the rot of the “respected” Judge Smails.

    Not only with his mean – but appropriate – rhetoric. Civility in response to others’ intellectual dishonesty is counterproductive in the defense of liberty, and the confession shared by the busybody Left and the incendiary fringe of the Right – that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves – is as intellectually dishonest as it gets.

    But with what he actually did, in terms of policy:

    > Since 1973, the year that Joe Biden entered the Senate, OPEC kept the world on a chain. President Trump broke that chain. Joe Biden is putting us back on that chain.

    > For years, China has exploited our free markets, building up its ability to impose the chains of totalitarianism. President Trump challenged this. Joe Biden would stand by and let China put more people in chains.

    > Some states have forgotten there’s more to life than COVID. Some states have not. President Trump respected federalism. Joe Biden would put all 50 states back in the chains of panic.

  • wayne … here is how I see the alleged election of 2020:

    > This election was compromised by officials not authorized to change the rules, changing them in key areas of this nation.

    > The burden of proof is not on the “losing” parties to prove fraud – it is on the officials who conducted the election to conclusively prove it was fair and honest, in the face of those compromises and other irregularities in the process, such as playing games with the monitoring of vote counting.. And the government (as opposed to its operatives re: criminality) is not entitled to the presumption of innocence.

    > That conclusive proof, in the face of multiple irregularities, has NOT been forthcoming … “because we say so” or “you lack standing” is NOT proof. This is where the courts in particular fell down on the job.

    > This election was so compromised that conclusive proof of its honesty was beyond reach … Congress should have refused to certify the Electoral College results, and sent it into the House for resolution.

    > And in the end, VP Pence should have refused to perform his role, for the same reason. He didn’t have to change/substitute votes as some suggest … that would have gone too far. But he should have refused to participate in this charade.

    > But our leaders in two of the three branches, and in many of our states, tried to duck the above and pretend everything was all right. They valued the reputation of their institutions … and/or the expedient repudiation of Orange Man Bad … more than they valued treating their constituents with honesty and integrity.

    Should actual proof of fraud come out, it will now shake this nation to its core, for we are in uncharted territory when it comes to finding an election illegitimate after inauguration. And that could have been avoided, had our leaders adhered to Constitutional requirements and processes – both before the election to avoid the compromises, and once the compromises became evident.

    This is the elephant in the room, that shall not be named – much less discussed – according to Big Tech, the media, and the Powers that Be. But the Tarkin Effect (the more you tighten your grip, the more slips out of it) applies to their efforts here.

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