Senate committee moves to cancel most of Trump’s proposed NASA budget cuts
Like pigs at the trough
We’ll just print it! Though disagreements prevented the Senate’s appropriations committee from approving the 2026 bills covering the commerce, justice, and science agencies of the federal government (including NASA) , the committee yesterday appeared poised to cancel most of Trump’s proposed NASA budget cuts and even add more spending across the board.
Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Maryland), the top Democrat on the CJS subcommittee, said this morning the bill would fund NASA at $24.9 billion, slightly above its current $24.8 billion level, with the Science Mission Directorate (SMD) remaining level at $7.3 billion.
By contrast, the Trump Administration wants to cut NASA overall by $6 billion, from $24.8 billion to $18.8 billion. SMD’s portion would drop 47 percent, from $7.3 billion to $3.9 billion.
The disagreements centered not on NASA, but on the Trump administration’s effort to cancel a very expensive new FBI headquarters building in the Maryland suburbs and instead shift the agency to an already existing building in DC. Van Hollen opposed this, and the ensuing political maneuvering forced the committee to cancel the vote.
This bill would once again continue full funding for SLS, Orion, and Lunar Gateway. It also includes funding for NASA’s very messed-up Mars Sample Return mission (which comprises the large bulk of the money added back in for science). From this it appears that the Republicans in the Senate are quite willing to join the Democrats in spending money wildly, as they have for decades. They have no interest in gaining some control over the out-of-control federal budget, in any way, as Trump is attempting to do.
What remains unknown is this: Who has the support of the American people? The election suggests the public agrees with Trump. History suggests that this support for cutting the budget is actually very shallow, and that while the public says it wants that budget brought under control, it refuses to accept any specific cuts to any program. “Cut the budget, but don’t you dare cut the programs I like!”
It is my sense that the public’s view is changing, and it is now quite ready to allow big cuts across the board. The problem is that the vested interests in Congress and in the DC work force are quite powerful, and appear to still control the actions of our corrupt elected officials.
Thus, the more of that work force that Trump can eliminate as quickly as possible, on his own, the more chance he will have to eventually bring this budget under some control.
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The print edition can be purchased at Amazon or from any other book seller. If you want an autographed copy the price is $60 for the hardback and $45 for the paperback, plus $8 shipping for each. Go here for purchasing details. The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
Like pigs at the trough
We’ll just print it! Though disagreements prevented the Senate’s appropriations committee from approving the 2026 bills covering the commerce, justice, and science agencies of the federal government (including NASA) , the committee yesterday appeared poised to cancel most of Trump’s proposed NASA budget cuts and even add more spending across the board.
Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Maryland), the top Democrat on the CJS subcommittee, said this morning the bill would fund NASA at $24.9 billion, slightly above its current $24.8 billion level, with the Science Mission Directorate (SMD) remaining level at $7.3 billion.
By contrast, the Trump Administration wants to cut NASA overall by $6 billion, from $24.8 billion to $18.8 billion. SMD’s portion would drop 47 percent, from $7.3 billion to $3.9 billion.
The disagreements centered not on NASA, but on the Trump administration’s effort to cancel a very expensive new FBI headquarters building in the Maryland suburbs and instead shift the agency to an already existing building in DC. Van Hollen opposed this, and the ensuing political maneuvering forced the committee to cancel the vote.
This bill would once again continue full funding for SLS, Orion, and Lunar Gateway. It also includes funding for NASA’s very messed-up Mars Sample Return mission (which comprises the large bulk of the money added back in for science). From this it appears that the Republicans in the Senate are quite willing to join the Democrats in spending money wildly, as they have for decades. They have no interest in gaining some control over the out-of-control federal budget, in any way, as Trump is attempting to do.
What remains unknown is this: Who has the support of the American people? The election suggests the public agrees with Trump. History suggests that this support for cutting the budget is actually very shallow, and that while the public says it wants that budget brought under control, it refuses to accept any specific cuts to any program. “Cut the budget, but don’t you dare cut the programs I like!”
It is my sense that the public’s view is changing, and it is now quite ready to allow big cuts across the board. The problem is that the vested interests in Congress and in the DC work force are quite powerful, and appear to still control the actions of our corrupt elected officials.
Thus, the more of that work force that Trump can eliminate as quickly as possible, on his own, the more chance he will have to eventually bring this budget under some control.
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The print edition can be purchased at Amazon or from any other book seller. If you want an autographed copy the price is $60 for the hardback and $45 for the paperback, plus $8 shipping for each. Go here for purchasing details. The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
“World Record for Hogs Eliminated in less than 30 Seconds”
https://youtu.be/eOYjvJFTXf4
This is why our debt will continue to grow until it eventually topples over like a Jenga block stack.
Sent strong words to Ted Cruz about whole space funding mess; but don’t expect much from the Ted-ster, He is burrowed into DC like the average Senate or House tick.
Term Limits are the only way to stop the feeding frenzy. We need 34 states to call a Constitutional Convention of States. Yes, there are dangers but they can be mitigated.
https://conventionofstates.com/take_action
Texas HAS voted FOR a Convention of States
In the meantime praying, working, giving to try to expand Republican majority in both Houses as stop gap to mitigate complete virtue signaling insanity.
I feared this would happen, and I said so; and so it has. And this scrum over FBI headquarters (however it ends up being resolved) is not going to avert the rest of this pork being retained in the final bill when it happens.
The NASA PBR that Russ Vought’s OMB assembled — whatever you think of it – was always going to be a tough sell on the Hill, and maybe not least because there were some….er, I might say, cuts that were more obviously open to critique than others. But be that as it may, the real problem is that the administration has not articulated any broader program of reform for which these cuts are the opening salvo, let alone invested any political capital or time in trying to sell. What we got instead looked like just Vought digging for a few billion to save in a smaller government agency budget.
I do not know whether Jared Isaacman would have been a successful man in the job, but had he been kept as NASA administrator . . . he would have a had a hard time closing that sale, too, but at least he would have been the guy in the appropriate job to make the attempt. And we know now that he broadly supported the budget, so we can assume he would have made the effort, and maybe even articulated some larger program of reform to which it was a necessary premise. And the confirmation hearing process did suggest that he was, at least, someone that Cruz’s and Babbin’s committee members (even some Democrats) would have *listened* to, if not heeded.
Instead, there has been no one in the job at all to even make that effort — just poor Janet Petro as the temporary functionary dutifully swinging the axe and giving town hall pep talks. Now, with Sean Duffy, there is . . . sort of. He can get Trump on speed dial, and he is a de facto political appointee, which gives him more clout with Republicans, but . . . he also has a day job. And, frankly, it is probably too late now anyway, at least for the FY 2026 budget.
I am afraid that the pork farm will continue until some administration actually makes the effort, spends the political capital, to stop it. In the mean time, we are left to hope that a growing commercial space industry makes it all at least modestly less important to our future in space.
AS I understand it, if there is a NASA project that does not have a specific line item in the budget, the President can cancel it tomorrow.
If Trump was serious about those cuts, he can cancel those projects immediate.
If he doesn’t then maybe the cuts were nothing more than a starting position.
I’m wondering about this also…. I think for once we are all on the same page regarding canceling SLS, Lunar gateway, and perhaps putting MSR out for tender makes nothing but sense, but surely the pure science based NASA stuff that does so well could continue to be funded from the savings? ( Remember Bob… A bill like this could have killed the Hubble at several time points).
It’s you guys budget, and you will rightly do as your government sees fit, but it would be a crying shame to see Space science cut at the expense of essentially pointless missions.
Is it even possible to cut the nonsense and reappropriate the funds to the good stuff, including hiring private enterprise for manned space flight, inside this budget bill? I will admit to having no great knowledge of how your budget works…. I understand each state with a finger in the pie will be keen to keep it there, but beyond that I have no clue how it all works.
Any (as brief as possible) explanation appreciated, ( and please.. links to reputable sites encouraged, but no links to YouTube, you will be wasting more of your own time than mine )
Lee S writes:
“A bill like this could have killed the Hubble at several time points”
Hubble has a specific line item in the budget . That means the project cannot be funded below the value specified unless Congress changes that. It’s protected.
”…I have no clue how it all works. Any (as brief as possible) explanation appreciated…”
The US federal budget is broken down into three categories: mandatory entitlement spending ($4.1 trillion in 2024), discretionary spending ($1.8 trillion), and interest on the debt ($881 billion).
The $4.1 trillion mandatory spending is for those social programs that you repeatedly tell us that we don’t have: $1.5 trillion for Social Security (old-age pensions), $865 billion for Medicare (healthcare for the elderly), $618 billion for Medicaid (healthcare for the poor), $370 billion for various income security programs (food stamps, disability payments, unemployment compensation, childhood nutrition programs, and family support programs such as foster care and the Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) program), and $752 billion for other mandatory spending (military and government pensions, veterans benefits, ObamaCare, payments for illegal aliens, etc.).
Note that this isn’t the total spending for those categories. Medicare, ObamaCare, and unemployment insurance collect premiums for their policies. This is just the spending over and above those premiums. In addition, the 50 states spend a great deal of money for Medicaid and other social programs out of their own budgets that do not come from the federal government.
The discretionary category includes $850 billion in defense spending and $960 billion in non-defense spending. This latter category includes NASA, foreign aid, air traffic control, the Coast Guard, federal law enforcement, federal education spending, federal transportation spending, more veterans benefits, and more income security programs.
Note that almost all actual education spending is at the local level, not the federal or state levels. The schools, community colleges and trade schools, libraries, ambulances, police departments, fire departments, jails, courts, city streets, water mains, and sewers are all under local control with local funding paid for by local taxes. The states fund most highways and universities and add education funds to poor districts to help balance educational opportunities out. They also fund a whole lot of additional social programs. None of this state or local funding is included in the federal budget.
The way the process works is that every February the president submits to Congress a budget request to cover the discretionary spending only. The rest is paid automatically without Congressional action or control. (Note: this request has not happened yet this year except for a few agencies such as NASA for which the Trump administration sent a budget request to the Congress in June.)
Then each house of Congress breaks the budget request into thirteen individual budget bills and sends them to the appropriate subcommittee of each house’s appropriations committee. Those subcommittees use the president’s budget as a guide but re-write the budget bills with their own preferences. Those subcommittees then “mark up” their individual bills and send them to the full appropriations committee. That committee modifies the budget bills and then sends them individually to the full House or Senate.
The House and Senate then each amend and pass their versions of each of the thirteen individual funding bills. Once that happens, a joint House-Senate committee blends the two versions into a single bill for each of the thirteen bills which then must be passed by both the House and Senate without modification. Finally, each of the thirteen bills goes to the president for his signature or veto.
If all of this doesn’t happen by the beginning of the fiscal year on October 1st then things get squirrelly. Something for another day perhaps.
Still more on the Elephant in the Room. (I think that it’s important to talk about this, but does anyone else think so.)
At this moment, the Trump Administration is in the midst of thoroughly discrediting itself through its insistence that there is nothing to the whole sordid Epstein affair. The critical question, at least as I see it, is just how much credibility the Trump Admin. can afford to squander on maintaining the lie that this is the case. Nothing to see here; please move along. If they will lie about this, what else will they lie about, and why should they be trusted?
For much of the non-MAGA electorate, it was the collapse of the credibility of the Biden Admin. that finally decided the outcome of the election in November. Now, watching Ms. Bondi I’m reminded of Jen Psaki and Karine Jean-Pierre, and this is not a good look for Mr. Trump and his friends. Quoting one observer’s comment, “They know that we know they’re lying to us, but they don’t care.”
The problem with all of this is that the same question of credibility applies to the proposed budget for NASA, and where are the votes going to come from — both in Congress and in the midterm elections — to sustain whatever policy initiatives the Trump Administration may present to us. As Robert observes, in the long term it may be more important to just allow the private sector to do its own thing and go its own way than to worry overmuch about whether or not we have a rational — or credible — national space program*. It would be nice, however, if whatever kind of “program” that Official Washington ends up supporting would at least not conflict with or impede what the private sector is trying to accomplish.
*At this moment, what *does* the Trump Administration support? Does it still support cutting funding for SLS / Artemis and the Mars Sample Return Mission, or — after Mr. Musk has been shown the door — are they now returning the magical thinking of the Bush, Obama, and Biden years?
Given the Trump Administration’s break with Mr. Musk, however, and this emerging, self-inflicted challenge to its credibility, it’s hard to know what the politics of space might be by the end of this year. Likewise, how the private sector will react to all of this. As the song says, “new boss, same as the old boss,” but many of us had hoped for better.
mkent wrote: “…, discretionary spending ($1.8 trillion), …”
Note that “discretionary spending” encompasses all the actual functions of government as stated in the Constitution, plus a few non-constitutional items, listed by mkent. Somehow, safety-net* welfare (mkent called it social programs) spending is seen by government as “mandatory spending.” The only portions of this that are entitlements are Social Security, Medicare, and veteran benefits, which were earned by almost all the recipients as part of their productive gainful employment.
So, how did the required constitutional items become “discretionary” and the unconstitutional** items become mandatory?
I don’t know, but a major problem with modern governmental function is that the U.S. government is assumed as the sovereign, not the individual states. This probably comes from the hierarchy of the laws, where federal law supersedes state laws. However, the Tenth Amendment shows that the federal government is not sovereign, but The People and the States are the sovereigns. The Preamble to the Constitution shows that We the People are the sovereign in this country. Even the Declaration of Independence acknowledges that governments are instituted to secure The People’s rights. To emphasize the point: We the People are the sovereign in this country.
___________
* Unfortunately, the safety net feature of welfare is now seen by many recipients as a hammock for resting in for long periods of time, even for lifetimes, rather than the intended purpose to keep people fed and housed until they become gainfully employed again. We have created generational welfare families, whose children have no concept of going to work every day and no concept of being productive members of society. Our EBT cards (modern version of food stamps) are accepted in the darnedest places, even Disneyland, one of the more expensive places on earth (not just the happiest place on earth).
** Read the Tenth Amendment:
The items not stated explicitly in the Constitution are not allowed to be funded by the United States (the federal government). Such funding gives power to the federal government that it is not allowed to hold — and the federal government exercises its usurped power by telling the States and the local governments that it will withhold funding if these governments do not do as the federal government directs them. Thus, the power illegally migrated from the State and local governments to the usurping federal government.
Almost all the “mandatory” items are not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, including Social Security and Medicare. Even veteran benefits are not among the powers delegated to the United States, thus they are at best State powers.
”Note that ‘discretionary spending’ encompasses all the actual functions of government as stated in the Constitution, plus a few non-constitutional items…”
Oh, I know. But I was writing for a foreign audience, in particular one who denies we even have the social programs I was writing about. And that was really a side issue to the question about process that he was asking. It was already getting pretty long, and I didn’t want to get so far down the rabbit hole that he (and others) would not follow.
”…a major problem with modern governmental function is that the U.S. government is assumed as the sovereign, not the individual states.”
I agree with this as well. I was going to write more about the three levels of government and why the top level is called the “federal” government instead of the “national” government, but it was already getting rather long for a blog comment. Perhaps another day. We’ll see if he re-engages or if he disappears again for a few weeks like he did after I posted economic statistics comparing the United States and Europe.
@mkent,
Thanks for the “clarification” of how government spending works… It’s one of those situations where I understand less after reading than before! I will have another go when I have some peace and quiet, but thank you for putting in the time!
Your jabs at my viewpoints were noted ;-)
I have never said the US has no social net, but have many times pointed out that for such a wealthy country I believe it could be better. But let’s no go there today.
Also, I never leave a conversation thru fear of debate, but there can be days between me being able to check BtB, so very often the thread has disappeared off into the distance and it’s just not practical to scroll thru pages and pages. I know there is a “latest comments” thingy at the very bottom, but ( are you listening Bob! ) it would a fantastic asset to be able to filter by latest comments. If I could do this you would have much more of my pinko commie ranting!
As an aside, the consensus even amongst the lefter leaning space community is happy to have someone in charge over at NASA, even if temporarily… As much to send out coherent messages as what those messages are. ( Remarkably reasonable for the left wouldn’t you say! ;-)
mkent,
You called it. No reengagement, but also not determined to engage or even to understanding. Although the request was for a brief as possible explanation and the request for links to what Lee S considers to be “reputable sites,” whatever he considers to be reputable, there was no follow up when the confusion increased. It is a mystery how he can be more confused than the state in which he had no clue.
It is just as well that you did not write more on the topic. It wasn’t helping him understand. I suspect that the error was in trying to engage using reason rather than using emotion, which is what leftists and marxists seem to respond to best. Yeah, I don’t know how to engage using emotion, either. That is one of the tragedies of leftism; leftist want the world to work the way they want it to work, rather than figure out how to work within the limits of reality.
I don’t know why Lee thinks that he needs peace and quiet after reading appreciated explanations. He says he never leaves a conversation from fear of debate, but over the years I have not noticed much debate on his part. He seems to get upset whenever anyone fails to agree with him and seems to consider disagreement as a personal attack. Pretty much all the leftists and marxists that I know are the same way, considering disagreement to be hatred. It is so hard to explain our viewpoint when they refuse to acknowledge that any but their own viewpoint is valid or refuse to acknowledge that any source of knowledge that fails to agree with them could possibly be reputable. This is pretty much the leftist definition: if it does not support leftism or marxism, it cannot possibly be reputable or correct. I do not believe we can influence Lee’s opinions. I just realized that this paragraph is about emotion.
Lee has also complained when we talk about him rather than to him, but this is our conversation, not his, and he probably isn’t on this thread any more.
Trump and Musk are still 2005 Democrats, but their party has gone far to the left while these two men remained in place, making them seem to today’s Democrats more like right wing Republicans than leftist Democrats, and this is why they are now rejected rather than loved by leftists. Note Musk’s graphic in this essay by Robert (and please note that it is an emotional argument, as depicted by all the stick-figure characters):
https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/the-biden-war-against-musk-is-a-war-against-america/
My comment was less for Lee’s edification and more to introduce a variation on the topic. Even if we return to a budgeting process, rather than the series of continuing resolutions we have lived under since 2009, it still is not constitutional and has misguided priorities — marxist priorities, where leftist/marxist principles permeate the language of the federal budgeting process.
Leftists and marxists believe there can be no charity other than government handouts (welfare or social programs). Hand-ups from non-government charities don’t float their boat, as such things are right-wing thinking and anti-marxist. Leftists think that if we were not forced to be charitable through taxes, then we would not be charitable. Left wingers may be that way, but people on the right have been charitable for millennia, helping people get back on their feet with a hand-up rather than helping people keep off their feet with handouts.
From each according to his desires, to each according to his merit. Meaning: work to earn enough to buy what you want. Free markets have worked that way since the first free trade was made. If you want a better lifestyle then you have to be more productive, even if that is to produce and sell a patent for a superior mousetrap or to supervise your workforce that makes that superior mousetrap. There is greater prosperity, because there is incentive for more productivity.
From each according to his ability [maximum effort, maximum tax], to each according to his need [minimum payoff, the ruling class keeps the remainder]. Marxism has worked that way since at least the Mayflower Compact, where there were complaints that some of the workers were slacking off yet would still receive a share equal to those who did the work. If you want a better lifestyle then work less, because you will still get the same share. There is less prosperity, because there is incentive for less productivity. If there isn’t enough for all, then find some charitable suckers, such as the U.S., to make up for the deficiency. Oh, and they don’t bother thanking us for our generosity, because it is our duty to share our hard work with the slackers (I have even heard leftists claim that this is in the Bible). Funny how marxism works in the real world.
@ Edward
Although it’s true it’s not my conversation, if your going to talk about me, especially in derogatory terms, it would behove you to remember I am in the room.
It is obvious your world view is so blinked that you truly believe there is only one “flavor” of “left”, no matter how many times I have tried to explain that my political views have absolutely nothing in common with the very far left, and even less to do with your loony left. You constantly reference my inability to see from any other viewpoint, yet you never reference the aspects of capitalism I agree with. And you call me blind? Pot… Kettle… (Behind the ) Black?
Well done gentlemen on managing to twist an honest request for clarification on a subject I have little understanding of ( and let’s be honest… Especially for a European, the fiscal process over there is very convoluted) into a political discussion, or more correctly a diatribe on my politics. ( Lee S is this… Lee S refuses to see that… Like all other Marxist Lee S .. the other)
I am not unintelligent, unreasonable or a child, and I am not thin skinned or a snowflake… But when the response to an honest question about how American politics work, without a trace of bias in my question ends up with a load of pretty explicit insults directed at me… ( In 3rd person does not make it any better Edward ), then is it any surprise I have no inclination to engage more?
Thanks once more mkent for trying to explain the system over there with very little reference to my personal politics… I still have not had time to really analyze… Your system, to this man anyway, needs some time to chew over to understand. I have copy/pasted into a document so I can quickly reference and follow along as events over there unfold.
Now, I have said before I no interest to get involved in long political discussion… At least on this forum… I actually come for the space stuff, and believed my question was apolitical. I am simply not willing to be drawn into more political discussion with folks I understand I will never change the mind of, and surely you understand you will never change mine… So can we call a truce please? I will stick to the space stuff, ( which surely we all share a love of )and we leave the political stuff by the side.
Oh… One last thing… To clarify a misunderstanding…
Edward – “It is a mystery how he can be more confused than the state in which he had no clue”
Referencing my comment “It’s one of those situations where I understand less after reading than before!”
This is a case which proves that US humour is similar to UK humour, but with fewer funny bits.
Oh my…. This is why I try not to engage on these type of discussions… I find it hard to just let total nonsense alone and walk away when challenged… A testimony to the passion of my beliefs, a proof of my lack of will power.. lol
Edward.. quote.. “I don’t know why Lee thinks that he needs peace and quiet after reading appreciated explanations.”
If you don’t understand the need to sometimes sit and read and learn in a quiet environment… Well, that explains a lot about your constant ranting about things you very obviously don’t understand.
Perhaps you should occasionally try to sit and read and learn something… Anything… In a quiet environment and try to learn. There is a reason for “quiet in the classroom “. I have little opportunity for quiet learning right now… But I still want to learn… Hence me asking regarding ( not for the first time ) how things work over there, with a genuine interest.
There are very few times in the last … What.. 15 years that anyone in the right wing audience here had ever asked me anything other than rhetorical questions regarding what works here in Sweden,.not one comment from someone who has visited Europe, let alone pinko commie Sweden…
The attitude of pretty much all of the posters here who condemn me for my politics is drawn from a position of ignorance. There is zero interest in how things actually work here, and any attempt I make to explain that other methods of governance are available are met with a “fingers in ears… Nahh nahh nahh” level of interest.
Excuse me for trying to better understand how things work over there… there is not really much excuse for those that refuse to even try to understand how Europe has a few thousand years of history, which have shaped the political landscape I live in.
It is almost as if there is some kind of cancel culture going on… Anyone with a different viewpoint to the majority gets shouted down with unwarranted slurs and insults.. ( yes, I consider being called a Marxist an insult.. being called something you are not in a derogatory way is the very definition of an insult )…. What’s up snowflake right?
If, for once, someone was prepared to genuinely engage in a civil and intelligent conversation I would be more than happy to engage… But these days, ( and it has gotten much worse over the years ) all I get is lectures on how naive and blinkered I am…
I will fill in a little back story… Born and raised in the UK, lived in Greece for 3 years.. ( happy days indeed! ), I have lived in Sweden for… 22ish years, enjoyed the benefits of raising small children ( paid parental leave, childcare… Family benefits payment) for the first few years … A net taker…. Benefits stopped as the kids got older… My tax payments stayed the same… I became ( and remain) a net giver… All just fine.
A percentage of the tax I pay goes towards healthcare… There is still cost at the point of treatment, and for meds, but the price is capped and priced so everyone can afford… I get insulin for a tiny fraction of the price US diabetics have to pay… There are many fewer amputees in Sweden. The Swedish healthcare system still makes money on the insulin it supplies. ( Most insulin is produced in Nordic countries… Your welcome! ) Any country that supplies life saving medicine only on a max-profit basis is morally messed up. If profit is more important than people’s lives, have another read of that bible.
I certainly put more back into the system than I take out now… ( Although arguably, the excellent education my kids are getting without having to take out eye watering interest loans counts as a take… debatable..) … And I go about my day. No problems with the system… No brain washing from the government, just as free as you guys are… And a country where no one is left behind… ( And no masked “police” pulling people off the streets and throwing them into camps…I’m sure I’m not seeing every side of this story… But it’s certainly scary, and people over this side of the pond are being advised to be very careful when traveling to the US. We can refer to history as to how this approach panned out!)…
To quote the late great Hitch..”Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity”.. which is why I’m still here…
So…. I have bookedmarked this page, and if anyone is up for a genuine debate… ( Edward! That means not throwing a hundred different points in one sentence! One at a time please!) I will happily stick around to defend my stance… And then we are done.
I am off to bed shortly, but will answer any points, and await rebuttals…
Sleep well my loony right Compadre’s
One thing that occurs to me whenever this topic comes up should be an obvious one: What works in Sweden has worked because Sweden is — or was, until very recently — a small highly homogenous ethnic Nordic society. Transplanting that kind of thing outside Scandinavia to countries which are not small highly homogenous ethnic Nordic societies runs into obvious difficulties for obvious reasons. Maybe it’s not entirely apropos here, but I am brought to mind of the Shah’s famous quip, “I will behave like the King of Sweden when the Iranians behave like Swedes.”
But given that whatever it was Sweden was ended up importing vast population cohorts from some of the most unassimilable parts of the developing world with all the societal problems that entails, and on top of that suffers from the same cratering fertility rates that almost all of the western world is suffering now, it’s hard to see why any of us should jump to the Swedish model for lessons on what to do and not to do.
I’ve been thinking more on the Trump–Musk thing. Even in 2005, Democrats would shun those who didn’t agree with them, and now that Musk and Trump are in disagreement about something, they have turned on each other. They may be registered as Republicans, but they are definitely not conservative. They are the same Democrats that they were in 2005, just as Musk drew in his graphic.
_______________
Lee S,
You wrote: “… yet you never reference the aspects of capitalism I agree with”
That may be because you never reference any aspects you agree with, either. Maybe I should try reading your mind.
“Well done gentlemen on managing to twist an honest request for clarification on a subject I have little understanding of ( and let’s be honest… Especially for a European, the fiscal process over there is very convoluted) into a political discussion, or more correctly a diatribe on my politics.”
No. The political discussion came from your increased confusion. We explain much to you, yet you accept very little of our explanations. Even providing evidence is tricky, because whenever we do, you declare it to come from an unreliable or disreputable source.
You may want to learn, but explaining it to you keeps getting negative results, with you complaining that we are being political. You also claim to like your own system, but when we explain why you like it and why we don’t, you again don’t want to learn that, either.
“I am not unintelligent, unreasonable or a child, and I am not thin skinned or a snowflake…”
I didn’t say you were, but you are emotional. You continually demonstrate that.
“… then is it any surprise I have no inclination to engage more?”
It got you pretty engaged this time, with four differnt comments. Until now, I didn’t know what it takes to get your attention, but I did know that I got it fairly often and lost it fairly suddenly. Now I know I lose it because you are not interested in scrolling.
“I am simply not willing to be drawn into more political discussion with folks I understand I will never change the mind of, and surely you understand you will never change mine…”
That is correct. We will always despise marxism because it — by its own admission requires capitalism in order to exist — sucks at us like a leach. You, on the other hand, benefit from that parasitic relationship. Like the leach, you will not change your ways.
“So can we call a truce please? I will stick to the space stuff, ( which surely we all share a love of )and we leave the political stuff by the side.”
No. I like discussing politics and economics here. It is integral to the space adventure, the ability — or inability — to perform private commercial enterprises and the financing of same. When man settles and colonizes space, politics and economics must follow.
We have seen that when governments take on a marxist attitude toward space, then we have been inhibited from participation and from the benefits of space. It works the same here in the earthly domain, too, and I want to discuss that.
We have also seen that when free markets and capitalism are finally allowed to operate in the space domain, we advance quickly and begin to receive the benefits of space. This is the lesson of the first half century of the space age, lessons we are only now beginning to apply. It is the lesson of the Plymouth Colony, which the world obviously failed to learn. Now we need to make sure that the lessons of Jamestown are not only learned but are applied, their errors avoided.
Free market capitalism is why America grew in three centuries from a backwoods village that couldn’t feed itself to a great country that saved the world from tyranny — twice. Marxism has turned great countries from being able to defend themselves into failures that cannot even feed themselves.
We all know that you will never acknowledge this, Lee, but you are the one who responds to the topic, as though you can convince us that your way is better than the way that works or convince us that you feel something other than what you do. I respond to you in order to further hone my thoughts on various topics. Were I ever to change your mind, then I could conceivably drop dead from shock and surprise.
“There are very few times in the last … What.. 15 years that anyone in the right wing audience here had ever asked me anything other than rhetorical questions regarding what works here in Sweden,”
Yeah, I think we already have a pretty good understanding of how it works over there. Besides, we have seen here in America that the more we emulate Europe, or any of its countries, the worse off we become. We already know that there are other methods of governance available, but we also know that the American method is not perfect, just better than all the rest. Didn’t Churchill say something like that?
We would prefer to learn how to do better, not how to do worse, so our curiosity is fairly low, except maybe for what to avoid as we make improvements to our method. It isn’t that I am saying there is nothing you can teach us, but I’m pretty close to saying that.
“… there is not really much excuse for those that refuse to even try to understand how Europe has a few thousand years of history, which have shaped the political landscape I live in.”
Yeah, we are happy that we got to start with a clean slate and got to choose the best parts of the past few thousand years of European and world history when we got started, a while back. The Founding Fathers were also determined to avoid the parts that don’t work, too. Now that Marx has eloquently explained a way that also does not work (no one had a name for the failed Mayflower Compact method, until Marx came along), and now that we have watched so many different places fail under marxism and have seen that even the wrong people can thrive under free market capitalism, most of us here on Behind the Black have concluded that our imperfect system is better than the failures. We truly hope that space colonies are able to innovate refinements to — or improvements over — free market capitalism to make an even better economic and political system.
“yes, I consider being called a Marxist an insult”
The only person who called you a marxist (I always separated marxists from you as separate entities) is yourself when you wouldn’t even quote me but mis-paraphrased me: “… Like all other Marxist Lee S ….” But now that you bring it up, you do call yourself a socialist, but socialism and communism are subsets of marxism. That means that socialists and communists are also marxists.
“If, for once, someone was prepared to genuinely engage in a civil and intelligent conversation I would be more than happy to engage”
Just not about politics or how it works over here in America, because you have on several occasions expressed a complete lack of interest on engaging in conversations about politics.
“A percentage of the tax I pay goes towards healthcare…”
And, there you go, initiating a discussion on the very politics you told us you didn’t want to discuss. You have become fairly easy to read, because shortly after you tell us you don’t want to discuss something, you begin discussing it. Oh, and: A percentage of the tax we
Americans pay goes towards — drumroll please — healthcare! That’s right, it works fairly similarly here in America as in Europe (why we need not ask you how it works over there), and we keep explaining that to you, but you never accept it. Even with healthcare, the more we emulate your foul system, the worse our healthcare system works. We here at BTB have even explained on multiple occasions why you pay so much less for your insulin than we Americans pay, but you don’t accept that knowledge, either. You just keep bragging how your costs are so much lower, and that keeps reminding us at how very much we subsidize your healthcare. And you refuse to thank us for giving you that benefit.
“I certainly put more back into the system than I take out now…”
Except for the part that we Americans put into your system — the part that you feel we should be thanking you for, in addition to the privilege of supporting you, rather than being grateful for our contribution to your lifestyle. Your country may make what we invented, but that manufacture just takes jobs away from us, the ones who paid for the development of the insulin in the first place. So we pay for the insulin development, you get the jobs, and we still have to pay way more than you do for the insulin made in your country. Now you feel that we should thank you for robbing us of our earned benefits.
What was that you said about any country that supplies life-saving medicine only on a max-profit basis is morally messed up? What did you say about if profit is more important than people’s lives then we should reread the Bible? Your country makes a huge profit from selling insulin to our country, but you feel we should thank you? That slurping you hear is not you sucking at the dregs of a soda but you sucking at the dregs of America’s largess.
Then you list a bunch of benefits that you receive because of our largess. We have a huge national debt from aiding countries like yours, and all we get is your insistence that we should thank you allfor allowing us to make your lives so much better at our expense. I can see how you might feel that is fair. A marxist would feel so, too.
“( Edward! That means not throwing a hundred different points in one sentence! One at a time please!)”
Oh, really? You just did that same thing to me in four different comments, but suddenly I have to respond using a different rule. You are suddenly the one who gets to set the rules for each of us? Different rules for me than for thee is yet another American leftist trademark, so once again, you are not as different from the American left as you want to be. What was that you wrote about fairness and stupidity? Maybe I should respond to that sentence of yours, too.
“Sleep well my loony right Compadre’s”
See? We don’t call you the loony left, only you call yourself that. Then you go ahead and actually call us a name even though we didn’t call you one, not even marxist. Well, that is just another one of your inconsistent rules that emulate America’s left wing.
I so wish we could meet up in my back yard and have this discussion face to face… I would supply cold beer, home baked bread and grill us some tasty meat… However that is unlikely to happen anytime soon… So…
I am extremely tired after working a very long shift… I’m a capitalist who likes the money… The company I work for sells spares for American cars … I am the resident exhaust specialist and now in the summer is our peak season… I am basically working 2 jobs in 1 jobs hours… I do like that money tho! ( And the Sweden government likes my taxes! )
I will try and answer more of the points raised above tomorrow, but I have to point out something said. Healthcare. Insulin…. I was in Egypt a few months back, and on the way to a tourist spot I realized I had forgotten my insulin at the hotel… “No worries” said the driver.. we stopped at a pharmacy and I bought exactly the same product as I get here in Sweden for about $8…. the cost over there is X10…. I’m pretty sure there is no US help towards the Egyptian health service, and if there is, it doesn’t go to help out a stupid English tourist that forgot his insulin.
I have no problems admitting the problems in the system I live in, they are legion, as they are in every system of governance, but the figures regarding healthcare over there speak for themselves…
Your infant mortality rates are shocking, and generalized “good outcome” rates are also terrible… 17th in the western world… Yet you pay the highest healthcare cost in the world…
These figures can be found pretty much anywhere you care to look…
Admittedly, I have picked the low hanging fruit here… But I am tired and need to go sleep… I can address some other points tomorrow… But the health care system needs a long hard look at getting shaken up. The leader of the free western world should really have less stillborn.
Oh , and Edward…. Can I sign you up for my soccer team? The amount of moving of the goal posts you can achieve in one post is remarkable!
Oh…. As Steve jobs would say…. One more thing…
Sweden receives 0 help/aid/whatever from the US, and we are an important contributor towards the US military program… You guys buy lots of weapons from Sweden, and as a small country we make up 10% of trade with the US. Yup… 10%. And we gave you Abba. Your welcome America
( just a needy question… Does anyone actually get the little wisecracks I throw into my posts? I hope so… I would rather make someone smile than frown while bashing the keyboard;-)
Lee S,
You wrote: “The amount of moving of the goal posts you can achieve in one post is remarkable!”
This is one reason why it is so hard to discuss anything with you. You say something stupid like this without explaining yourself. I keep the goalposts in the same place. Perhaps you are confused that you don’t do the same and don’t recognize it, such as telling us that you don’t want to talk politics, then insist that we do anyway.
“Sweden receives 0 help/aid/whatever from the US, and we are an important contributor towards the US military program… You guys buy lots of weapons from Sweden, and as a small country we make up 10% of trade with the US. Yup… 10%. And we gave you Abba. Your welcome America”
There you go again. Saying something stupid. Sweden contributes nothing at all to U.S. military program. As you said, we have to buy anything we get from you. If you want to compare such things as ABBA, then you will lose that argument, because the U.S. produces far more than ABBA. In fact, it that is how you want to measure contribution, America is by far the greatest contributor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuv0K8H8ILM (“What We Believe, Part 7” 12 minutes)
See below for a way that Sweden receives aid from the U.S. but that you don’t see.
“I was in Egypt a few months back, and on the way to a tourist spot I realized I had forgotten my insulin at the hotel… “No worries” said the driver.. we stopped at a pharmacy and I bought exactly the same product as I get here in Sweden for about $8…. the cost over there is X10…. I’m pretty sure there is no US help towards the Egyptian health service, and if there is, it doesn’t go to help out a stupid English tourist that forgot his insulin.”
Let me emphasize: “the cost over there is X10”
As I have explained several times before, we Americans pay more because we are covering the cost of the development of much of the world’s pharmaceuticals as well as covering the profit that encourages our drug development companies to stay in business. By law, American drug companies must sell to foreign countries at cost. This is merely one way that Sweden and the rest of the world receives help/aid/whatever from the U.S. We pay for what you get at cost. We pay more, you pay less. You benefit from our largess.
But worse, you then try to convince us that our drug companies are the ones making huge profit, but at the same time you also told us that your Swedish company was selling insulin to the U.S. at huge profit — probably because it can, since the price umbrella is so high in the U.S.
“Does anyone actually get the little wisecracks I throw into my posts? I hope so…”
No. We are unaware you were trying to be a wisecracker.
Are we just arguing about jokes that you have been telling us? Is that what is going on?
@ Edward….
You must be an absolute blast at parties!!
I try very hard to keep my discussion as light hearted as possible… We both know that there is very little common ground in our politics, and neither of us are likely to change our position thru posts on this forum… But a wisecrack here and there can bring a smile to what is essentially a pointless discussion. We are never going to change the world… No matter who is right or wrong… So why not try and throw in a funny or 2… And if my attempts at humour fly straight over your head… Stick some ABBA on and have a dance around the kitchen… I do this with my daughter regularly and it always lifts my mood and makes me smile. Something’s are priceless.
This thread is now heading towards the bottom of my 2nd page of scrolling,. So I will probably be abandoning the post… But should you wish to carry on the discussion, feel free to continue on a more recent post…. I would hate to be accused of bailing out because of fear or proof I am in the wrong. :-)
Another completely unrelated side note…
My children are now 17 and 19… It only seems like 5 minutes ago I was getting grief here for taking my paternity leave… My how time flys!
I took them to see the US band Green Day live a couple of weeks back… We danced and sang and had the most wonderful of afternoons in the summer sunshine. ( They were amazing! )
Memories created that will last their lifetimes..
Very little politics involved, just music and joy.
I do understand that we should all stand up and use our votes and our right to protest against that we disagree with, but we must also remember that we are a long time dead. ( @ Edward ) Yes, there is an awful lot going on in the world I deeply have problems with… And you obviously feel the same… But there is a lot to be said for occasionally letting go and enjoying the moment. The wonders of space give me those moments, ( along with great concerts) , which is why I come here… Not for conflict.
Lee S,
You said you would bookmark this thread so that you could have a political discussion, but now it is once again too far to scroll. But instead of a discussion, you just want to talk about our personalities, so no, I don’t want to come over to your house for a discussion, as it would be a big disappointment. But thank you for the continual invitation anyway.
You did surprise me that you received grief for exercising what you previously led us to believe was a common right in socialist societies.