Cerutti Mastodon Discovery
An evening pause: This story of the discovery of a mastodon site in San Diego strongly challenges all theories about the first human arrival in North America.
Hat tip Cotour.
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“asking questions is that the base of all scientific inquiry” the narrator says. But I bet the San Diego museum has an exhibit on “climate change” that says the science is settled.
Whoa! Fascinating – got me looking into the Eemian and current state of hominid development at that time. 130K!!!!
Many no longer accept the 15K time for first arrival in the Western Hemisphere – numerous sites (often questionable) appear to be older, but only by thousands of years. Many suspect several waves in 20K+ range.
If this is human activity, then what kind of human – and from where?
hondo–
you might enjoy this—
“America Before: The Key to Earth’s Lost Civilization”
Graham Hancock
August 2019
https://youtu.be/GAccZ8eWhXo?t=309
1:48:19
I don’t buy into pseudo-science, which dominates in this field.
hondo: Could you be more specific about what you mean by “this field” and the pseudo-science involved?
Both paleontology and archeology are filled with weak theories and great uncertainties. It is dangerous to take many of their conclusions without skepticism. However, both do produce real data that is informative. I am curious where you (and others) might draw the line.
Graham Hancock and many others like him – I consider them under the general heading of von Däniken types. Michael Cremo is another. An aspect of pop culture that “want’s to believe”. The blurring of lines between science and fantasy/fiction.
Hondo:
I know what you mean about Graham Hancock but you have to admit that there exist many things both man made and natural that exist, on this planet specifically, that remain at the edge of or outside of our every day accepted ability to properly explain.
hondo–
Personally, I find Hancock to considerably “less-out-there” than the likes of Von Daniken and Cremo.
I will however readily admit the Titles of his books do not necessarily help his cause, nor do his views on psychedelic substances. That being said– I find it hard to believe human civilization is as young as mainstream archeology maintains.
Graham Hancock at Göbekli Tepe in Turkey
https://youtu.be/rUO9hUb3SB8
1:24:22
What exactly is mainstream archeology? Are “they” all in league with some vast conspiracy to hide “the truth”? Amazingly, the quack fringe seems to think so.
Göbekli Tepe is a fascinating find – may well push the dawn of civilization back a few thousand years to about 9-11K BC as supposed 5-6K BC – just about after the last ice age. Would also indicate a false start with subsequent collapse.
I don’t believe Hancock is actually involved with the site, but simply incorporating his opinions and beliefs into it.
hondo–
point taken– “mainstream archeology.”
Personally, I don’t think there is some organized conspiracy to “hide the truth,” but I am well aware there is a preferred narrative within the community and until the paradigm shifts (or gets more flexible) they just don’t explore some things they feel interfere with their theories of human development.
This really isn’t my thing, I just happen to find Hancock to be a fairly good communicator and some of his speculation sound plausible, and he has been vindicated along some dimensions. (I do cringe at some of his comments, but all-in-all I find him less-whacky than some of ‘these people.’) (( He is “just an author,” and doesn’t claim to be a rocket-scientist.))
–the comet strike ‘thing, (around 12k BC) does highly appeal to me however.
Personally, I think “organized civilization ” does go back to 11k BC++., but that’s just a feeling on my part.
(No alien visitors, no electronics, no Atlantis, etc., I take all that as being a mythologized representation. More in the, take it seriously but not literally, camp.)
tangentially– who is the guy that thinks there was a nuclear war on Mars?
There are just some things that are not rationally, scientifically explainable, both man made and natural on this planet.
And these researchers, some more qualified than others, run with their attempt to explain what lives in these outer reaches where science will not tread. These outer reaches are where careers can be made or broken if you dare go there. And so in many ways they do not exist for many. And that does not compute to me. Ignoring something does not make it so.
We can make a list if necessary.
I’ve already made my list – reference field of archeology, I look for a trained fully accredited archeologist – same in other fields. Not passionate authors, writers, journalists etc. eager to speculate and present an air of “expertise”.
Reference the original article – they are professionals in their fields who decided to take a major risk and speculate over a questionable and controversial finding. All fascinating, but even I question whether they have properly identified a butchering site.
Reasonable, agreed.
But there still exists a class of things both man made and natural that are not explained by any accredited scientist. And as a matter of fact they for the most part will not touch them because they are unanswerable and lie at the edges of acceptable accredited science.
And still, there they are.
Hondo, or anyone else since we are on this subject:
Just for fun take a look at this video if you have a moment, go to 8:46 if you do not want to look at the entire video.
https://youtu.be/lfVhiUkBTjU
Not even taking into consideration the complexities of moving, manipulating, scribing in on multiple faces of these stones which fit together perfectly and seamlessly and then placing them and the fact that they weigh many multiple tons, 10, 20, 30 or more, some 100’s of tons. That alone to me is mind bending for anyone who existed one 1000 or more years ago. Lets just assume that if you get enough men together all of this can be accomplished, in granite or harder material, and there is no steel or diamond cutting tools, no wheels, its all accomplished using man power, ropes, levers and stone hammers. We will assume that as a fact because it exists all over the world.
But take a look at the frame at 8:46 and what interests me specifically are the multiple channels that appear to be “carved” (?) or more correctly “scooped” (?) out of the face of the boulders on the top layer. What are those symmetrical and what appear to be highly controlled in depth and length cuts in the stone a result of? And marks like that and others with very interesting similar characteristics are found all over Peru. I would love to know how that was done.
And I believe that the Zman has I believe been to Sacsayhuaman (?), and I wonder what he thinks of this observation and these marks in these stones?
This might be a better representation of what interests me about how these stones that have been cut or shaped.
https://youtu.be/YMUZRGuYqY8
Some of these cuts are clearly made with something like a circular steel blade with diamond cutting surface and then there are some that appear to be cut using laser (?), or some method of melting (?).
Notice at time 4:12 the edges of these cuts, they are sharp and slightly curled as though they were cut using high heat or melting. How is this done? I have no idea.
And these are 1000, 2000, 5000 year old ruins? Has to make you scratch your head.
As an amateur archaeologist I have seen a lot of stone artifacts that are difficult to explain, but I think part of it is simply lost techniques. By comparison I look at old school engineers and mechanics who were taught all of these amazing knot tying methods as boy scouts and the current generations know practically none of this. If your people spend 2000 years carving, moving and erecting large stones they will figure out some ingenious techniques to do it much more easily. We have lost all knowledge of those techniques and no one spends enough time working on it to rediscover them. We tend to focus on mechanical cutting methods as explanations, but they could have also used acids (like vinegar) that can be derived from nature without knowledge of true chemistry. They certainly could make glues, and from there, basic files covered in grit from very hard stones with which to work on lesser stones more easily.
That being said, I would still love to take a trip to Coral Castle and figure out if Edward Leedskalnin actually did discover some sort of crazy electromagnetic repulsion through his amateur experiments.
You start out so reasonable, and then you end with the Coral Castle? Leedskalnin had steel and chain falls, electricity and wire cable, trucking etc, etc.. Coral Castle is no mystery to me. Certainly evidence of what just one imaginative and determined man can accomplish for sure, but a mystery? I have studied it, no mystery there for me.
Its those curled edges of those what appears to be slices or scoops taken out of those stones in Peru that has me scratching my head. They look like as though they were clay and someone came by and with a spoon just scooped out what they wanted. No glue, no acid, no aliens IMO. It appears to be melted in some manner.
And I dismissed all of this initially, but then I began looking more closely at it and it is without doubt strange and out of place for the time periods we are discussing.
And I already have conceded that determined humans have the ability to cut and move the sizes that are involved. But there are things found in some cases that infer something other than what is known as being within the technology that we believe existed at the time in question. Science as far as I understand has not reasonably explained these things because they can not explain them.
You lost me – what is the significance – ancient civilizations were capable of many things – if a certain technique is lost to time – then so be it.
Simple basic experiment – ask people today to build a fire – without matches, lighters etc. Ever wonder how many would fail/be clueless over something homo erectus could do?
If its a lost technique or technology then I want to know how it was done.
Look here again: https://youtu.be/akxzmW-p_ng
Go to 1:16 and observe the “scoops” / furrowed channels on the top of the stone. And then as it pans around to the side see where the “scoop” ends in a peak and then again begins in a second “scoop”. Was this piece softened and “Molded” some how? It appears to be scooped out and not evidence of wooden pieces creating a mold in which a stone is shaped.
These are characteristics not of cutting with stone on stone but of removing / peeling (?) material through some other technique. And the point here is that science can not explain it. If they can then reproduce the effect. But they can not and they can not figure out how to do it. You could not even reproduce the effect given any technique using modern tools or techniques.
A determined human being in the more modern time frame that it was constructed can reproduce something like the Coral Castle, but not these multiple examples of material removal by a means that is unknown in Peru.
Again, and this is Stonehenge.
https://youtu.be/rf2X0o7EOjg (I turn the sound off)
And go to 2:54, the same technique as in Peru found in Britain? Scooping?
Its very strange, and science can not explain or reproduce it.
I’ll stick to erosion – many ways/causes – and with rock, it takes place over vast periods – not just the finished construction site. Not all rocks being cut are “perfect” – and given the time consumption required, they are not likely to toss it aside and do over.
Why do you assume it was made like that intentionally?
Those scoop marks appear to be man made. They are all over those ruins in Peru. What kind of erosion leaves markings like that? Glaciation leaves long and contiguous grind marks over bed rock. These stones have these marks on multiple and opposing sides that begin and end. Erosion? I think not.
The stones that make up these walls in Peru are scribed on multiple sides and at odd and random angles and they fit together in a very, very consistent and exacting manner, very difficult to accomplish. And they did it with 20, 30 and 40 plus ton blocks 1000 or more years ago.
But that is besides the point, those scoop marks are on stones in Peru, stones in Britain at Stonehenge and stones in Egypt. Science has no idea what was used to accomplish them and it happens apparently on three different continents thousands of years ago. That is a head scratcher.
Cotour/hondo
–I’ll go with erosion type processes myself, and to include any acidic type mortar utilized. (but again, this is not my thing)
–and from what I understand, although we don’t know the precise mechanics of how these large structures were actually built, there are a number of purely analog brute force approaches that work just fine.
–to broaden this out a bit– ‘conventional thinking’ is that hunter-gatherer type societies are not capable of building large megalithic structures. The thinking goes that only organized agricultural based societies are capable of producing the surpluses required.
(and origins of agriculture, is a topic unto itself)
I have already stipulated to human beings being able to move the size stones as we see here and build such structures, that is not the issue here. Its is the scientifically unexplained manufacturing marks that are not accounted for on structures that are many thousands of years old (???). Those marks on those stones are without doubt not caused by erosion they are man made and are made with purpose and intent.
Erosion does not cause multiple sides of a shaped stone to be manipulated and shaped in the same manner. Especially consistently over and over in stone after stone. And the same manufacturing marks are found on similar stones in similar constructions on three continents and they are all thousands of years old. How do you scoop (?) material from the hardest stones?
And as soon as that is realized and understood then that changes how you look at these structures from an archeological / scientific point of view. And science has no answers nor do they offer any because its so strange. And that is what this conversation is about, science not wanting to look at what it can not rationally explain, it becomes a third rail.
UFO’s the same, they have been observed for hundreds possibly thousands of years and they too are shunted to this class of observed by the public events by science who because they are soo strange they become a third rail issue that can ruin careers if you as a scientist dare to actually look at them in a serious manner. Just because you can not explain it does not make it not exist.
This however is changing a bit related to this particular subject, remember this from recent news reports.
https://youtu.be/NTLSQCF6ohQ
The US Navy allows this gun camera video to be released and talked about. Captain Fravor ” it accelerated at a rate that I have never seen before” then the vehicle accelerated to 3700 MPH. These guys were flying the highest and most recent fighter technology at the time.
Again, the point? Science will not touch it because it again is another thing in that class of things that is just not scientifically explainable. And I think unless Cap. Fravor and his men are a part of some elaborate hoax, which I doubt, we can agree that these were credible observations recorded and verified. And there are no explanations. None, just like those marks on those stones.
There are qualified people on this very web site that will never comment on this subject, and many of them are actual rocket scientists and aerospace engineers. Why? Because they are unable to 1. Believe that this is possible and 2. They can not even guess at how it is technologically possible and accomplished.
But there it is all the same.
You want/need to believe. I can understand that. It has a logic all it’s own.
You seem to believe these rock “irregularities” were put there during construction and deliberate. Why?
The rocks themselves are hundreds of millions years old (+), drawn from different locations and subject to erosional forces of a huge variety during all that time. It’s time consuming to cut the original stone and transport it – if it has “imperfections”, do you thing they are just going to toss it aside?
I have provided examples, evidence, of stone / stones that have clearly been shaped and manipulated on multiple faces by some unusual method that is plainly not erosion. And your response is that “I need or want to believe”? Believe in what? Don’t shoot the messenger.
https://youtu.be/akxzmW-p_ng 1:16
The point of this entire exercise is demonstrating that there exist things on this planet, both man made and natural that science can not explain and will not even venture into the subject because it is in fact unexplainable by science and the known technology of the time frame which we are discussing. You could not replicate it today.
Cotour,
Oddly enough I recently made a hot razor knife in my lab to cut some polymers more precisely so I have a general sense of the patterns it makes. A hot wire cutter used on dense foam leaves behind similar patterns to these stones. If they used a heated metal scooper there should be traces of the metal in the surface of the rock that is detectable. I cannot fathom them having access to a high temperature metal alloy that was electrically heated in order to shave these stones (copper and bronze were around and maybe meteoritic iron at best). The more likely technique might involve a chemical that softens the rock so that it can be shaved down to an appropriate size or they indeed found a method of making cement out of different types of rock. Those grooves on the Peruvian stones look to me exactly like patterns I make while eating ice cream out of the container. My mom makes similar patterns when she eats her frozen mango slushy treat.
Ryan:
The marks are just weird. They are at different angles, different depths, are on faces that are 90 degrees apart in some cases, and they apparently start and end and then begin again. And it and other unusual characteristics are found all over the sites in other larger constructions where it appears that rock was removed in this scooping (?) manner in Peru. There are smooth cuts underneath some larger stones in the videos where the edges appear to curl up as thought they have been melted, just like your hot razor knife would produce. The markings are not to me the result of stone hammers. Stone hammer do not curl edges, they round them.
And similar characteristics are found thousands of miles apart and are thousands of years old ?????
Very strange, and if they are what they appear to be, I have no idea how they are created.
Erosion? I think not.
As an example, look again at this video https://youtu.be/YMUZRGuYqY8
Go to 4:08 min and then to 4:10 and tell me what that cut edge characteristic is.
It does not appear to be the result of a blade cut because it does not appear to be straight or the result of abrasion, the removal of stone appears to be curved to the edge here and it appears to have that clean sharp curled lip as a result of it. ????? Very strange IMO.
I again have not the slightest clue as to how that is done. And done 1000? 2000? Plus years ago?