Trump begins to “evolve”

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The betrayal begins: At the debate last night Donald Trump noted that he is already beginning to consider easing his hardline immigration stance.

In Detroit, Fox News’ Megyn Kelly pointed out that Trump’s campaign website has a strong statement against increasing the number of H-1Bs, saying it would “decimate American workers,” and yet in one debate Trump spoke favorably of the program. “So, which is it?” Kelly asked.

“I’m changing,” Trump said. “I’m changing. We need highly skilled people in this country, and if we can’t do it, we’ll get them in. But, and we do need in Silicon Valley, we absolutely have to have. So, we do need highly skilled,” Trump continued, “and one of the biggest problems we have is people go to the best colleges. They’ll go to Harvard, they’ll go to Stanford, they’ll go to Wharton, as soon as they’re finished they’ll get shoved out. They want to stay in this country. They want to stay here desperately, they’re not able to stay here. For that purpose, we absolutely have to be able to keep the brain power in this country.

“So you are abandoning the position on your website?” asked Kelly.

“I’m changing it,” Trump said, “and I’m softening the position because we have to have talented people in this country.”

I’ve said from the beginning that Trump is not a reliable conservative, that his roots are liberal, even if they aren’t radical leftwing, and that once he gets in power he will be no different than either George Bush or even Bill Clinton.

Thus, I am not surprised that he “softening the position”. What surprises me is that he is revealing this now, even before he has gotten the Republican nomination. I wonder if anyone will really notice.


  • George Losoncy

    I agree we have many American`s with STEM graduate degrees who can`t find work because foreign skilled workers will work for minimum wage and no benefits. Government rule`s now put a preference for H1B hire-ing even over affirmative action hire- ring of minority workers.

  • Cotour

    Tap dancing, massaging and finessing his way through the mine field that is politics, Trump modifies some of his populist “positions”. If indeed Trump sees the job of president and governance only as just a series of compromises and degrees of constituent “happiness” not backed up with rock solid philosophical foundation that reflects the concepts and parameters contained in the Constitution then his first four years of administration are going to be filled with extremely aggressive re-instruction from the people who have empowered him. Me being one of them.

    Then his second term will be highly unlikely, and the cycle will continue until whom ever the people empower give what it is that the people actually want and in fact demand, more or less.

    I listened to a Craig B. Hulet interview the other night, he correctly IMO points out that our Congress has been long ago compromised by the multinational corporations and the many treaties that the Congress have dealt their responsibilities away to and the idea of the One World type, New World order government (ala G. Bush sr. and the neo con agenda).

    This entire political thing may just be an exercise in futility and we have all unknowingly been captured and are really all run by these interests and we are just allowed to think that we have an influence on what goes on in the world. Or maybe not.

  • wayne

    I temporarily lost my mind in a prior post yesterday, where I said I “might. maybe, possibly” support Trump in a General, under very specific, bizarre, circumstances , but I take that all back.
    Trump is worse than I could ever imagine. If he gets sworn in, he’s not accountable to anyone for 4 long years.
    Doubling down on Cruz for long-haul.

    George; new stats released today, “93,688,000” people are not in the labor-force anymore. (Labor Participation rate is 62.9%) Down every so slightly from the prior month, but hasn’t been this bad overall, in like 38 years.

  • Cotour

    Wayne, I understand your schizophrenic break with your reality because of the multi leveled and confusing nature of this political cycle.

    Although now knowing that you were / are a mental health professional it gives me pause, your ability to digest and assimilate confusing multi level situations and boiling things down to a reasonable conclusion to come to a diagnosis is understandable in this instance however :)

    New strategies will reveal themselves as the real facts that will have to be dealt with coalesce in the coming weeks.

  • wayne

    Har– love it! Have grown to really appreciate your commentary, even if we might differ on specifics & interpretations.

    HAR!– more accurately “Psychotic Episode N.O.S.” (not otherwise specified)

    Here’s a scary factoid– about 80% of the entire Population qualifies for any given Diagnosis under the new D.S.M version-5. (THE, “diagnostic manual.”) Which, IMO, is more about “insurance” now, than actual classification of “real” mental health states. (If your “condition” has a number attached to it– “they” can bill insurance.)

    – Back to my old self & tripling down on Cruz! Michigan is in play next Tuesday & I can’t wait to VOTE!

    “Courage Boys & Girls!”
    –I think we are afraid to trust our fellow citizens, but “in our hearts we know he’s Right!”
    –Millions fought & died for our Country, all we have to do is Vote correctly. (That’s not so terribly much to ask, is it?!)
    With the caveat that the price of liberty/freedom, is eternal vigilance. (not violence– vigilance!)

    There really are, more of “us” than of “them.” The left has just made us all feel like there is something wrong with us, rather than them & their utopian fantasy’s.

    Our ancestors escaped from all that foreign-ideology and gave us a Republic, “if we can keep it!” We have inherent Rights (& responsibilities) that no king, dictator or strong-man can take away, unless we let them do it to us.

    Do it for yourself, your children, your neighbor, the Country! Do it for everything we have ever learned, since we crawled out of the muck.
    100 million Human Beings were systematically murdered by “ism’s” in the last century.

    Nothing is perfect, but we’ve done pretty damn well, haven’t WE?

  • Cotour

    To my Neo con / One World Government / New World Order comments, I present supporting psychological manipulation evidence that the children of America are being conditioned to think in just that way.

    The Leftists are in league with the Neo cons, and they probably do not ever realize who’s bidding they are doing, dopey bastards.

    Wayne, happy to know that you have a good sense of humor, you may be needing much more of it as things progress.

  • wayne

    Cotour (anyone)
    –I’ve pushed this before, (and I’ll stop) but I would really appreciate it if you took a look & let me know what you think.
    “In Our Hands; How We Got What We Have” part 1

    (The other 3 parts, especially “How to Lose What We Have,” are remarkably cogent to our present situation.)
    I’m as guilty of complacency & “go-along-ism,” as anyone, but in whatever time I have left now, I’m all-in, big-time.
    [Remember the Star Trek episode with the alternative universe –(Spock has a beard & The Empire controls the Galaxy?) –“One man can change the future!” Each of us is, that one person! ( Yes– I know the System is corrupt, yadda, yadda, yadda, but while we still have an opportunity, let’s get this rocket launched!]
    {which remind me– SpaceX launch this afternoon– hopefully waiting!}

    –The left just ridicules this type-of-thing as being hokey & old-fashioned, but consider; it was made 5 short years after WW-2, in defense of & advocacy for, Freedom & Capitalism. Just ‘cuz it’s old & in B&W, doesn’t mean it’s inherently wrong, ya know?

    It’s not perfect by a long shot, but it’s fairly straightforward and just good old fashioned American common-sense.
    (If I was wealthy, I’d buy airtime & broadcast it over & over & over. The pencil-neck geek academics, with their tenure, would trash me & it, mercilessly, but I’m sick of them ordering me to think their collectivist, Statist, crap-o-la.)

    Freedom & Liberty shouldn’t be such a hard thing to sell. But…the left spent 100 years systematically (and systemically) undermining our own Heritage.


  • Cotour


    I have been through all of those inspirational American films, videos, movies etc, etc, etc. I appreciate them all but also understand that they too have their “propaganda” agendas and interests.

    (notice who produced this one, Borg Warner, do you think that they would produce a similar pro American war machine / American “values” film today in this One World atmosphere? )

    After many years of believing in a general subjective / romantic version of what America and the exercise of power was, painted by the media of my time. I eventually stepped back and finally in the mid 2000’s (as best as I could discern) took a raw, hard objective look at what America was, what power and its abuse was and is and what government is and is not and how it relates to the long arch of the history of human interactions and systems of governance.

    (your psychological back round and study of the human animal will serve you well related to this subject)

    One of my conclusions about such things is something I called Strategy Over Morality (S.O.M.), the title tells the tale. I have posted it before here, you may have read it.

  • wayne

    Fair enough, I did ask you, after all! (Har)

    –“Propaganda” not inherently a “bad word.” Good “propaganda” is always based on truth. Capra’s “Why We Fight” series was put together from our enemies own “propaganda,” he just turned it back on them. The left has done a good job at redefining otherwise innocuous words. “Propaganda” isn’t inherently bad—taking the best-light of a very-good System, is more like advocacy.
    (None of this stuff are “Documentaries!”)
    [ tangent, har, Art Bell thinks “Men in Black” was a documentary… HAR]
    -Freely admit I’m jingoistic towards my own Country. (everyone generally is, except the millions of people trying to break into OUR Country who aren’t toward their own homeland. They are onto something, ‘cuz it’s largely “true.”)

    Borg Warner; I’d have to research how much, if any, Cronyism they were engaged in, in 1950. ( I didn’t detect any “pro-war machine” message in, In Our Hands.) Even if they were doing cronyism, it wouldn’t inherently taint the message they sponsored.

    As to: “….subjective / romantic version of what America and the exercise of power was, painted by the media of my time.”
    –It might be subjective or romantic, but does that inherently cancel the Message?
    (The “good old days” were pretty crummy in actuality, as far as technology, quality of life, etc., & compared to what we know now. They were however, objectively more-free & more in-line with our history. I saw, lets have both, technology & freedom!)

    As to:
    “….hard objective look at what America was, what power and its abuse was and is and what government is and is not and how it relates to the long arch of the history of human interactions and systems of governance.”
    -Fully understand where you are coming from on that.
    Agree in part with qualifications. 100 years of Progressivism has co-opted how “power” is exercised in America, in actuality & how we perceive it to be.
    –We have never been perfect, but we were markedly less “less-perfect” in the past. (That doesn’t sound right grammatically, but I hope you get my point.)

    As to your “Strategy Over Morality” post: Yes, did read it, but have not really formed an opinion, specifically.

    -I’ll end with this;
    –The Carousel (“It’s a Time Machine”)

    Advertising, “propaganda,” “manipulation…” Yeah– sort of, but consider; Everything in that clip is pretty much accurate as to the actual product, and with a heavy emotional component.
    >> It’s beautiful. Really good “advertising” is accurate & emotional.

    When I see material such as “In Our Hands,” it hits me on multiple levels.

    Similar to seeing the Flag at funerals, or any number of “patriotic” type shared-experience things. It reinforces my core beliefs’, it’s accurate to a high degree, and it’s very emotional. That’s a powerful trio
    – Watch the “Lincoln Letter” scene in Saving Private Ryan, or when they storm the beach on D-Day.
    Personally, hits me on all levels, emotional, historical, personal (two dead uncles in France), etc.

    Wow, could this be another thread that refuses to die! HAR
    –If were not smilin’, were cryin’!

    Good input.

  • Cotour

    I make no moral distinction between “good” or “bad” propaganda, it is what it is and whether it is “good” or “bad” is determined by where you stand.

    On the producers of that particular movie short, Borg Warner, an American company that builds machines and develops technology. Machines and technology are the back bone of the war machine or what has been named the “Military Industrial Complex” (I.E. BIG business) by Eisenhower, tax payer patriotism is an essential component in the funding of the machine and the fighting of the wars. And don’t get me wrong I love the technology, and the machines, and the developing of the systems and the security that they can provide, this is not a peace nik rant. Films like that are patriotic but they are also necessarily self serving at the same time.

    Your carousel clip illustrates my point nicely, its a bunch of romanticized Hollywood, sentimental fantasy (not as well done as the older film IMO) that attempts to reach into the emotional core of the human being attempting to create an emotional connection / direction or foundation from which can be launched the “product” or the, in the case of Borg Warner or government, the patriotic movement. (please keep in mind, I am as patriotic as anyone the reads this)

    To me it is important when viewing such things to always be personally aware of the subjective and self referencing nature that human beings see things and along with that attempt to be as close to objective as humanly possible to really objectively “see” the underlying agenda. There’s always an agenda, make no mistake.

    Politics is all about what we are talking about here.

  • wayne

    No problems, would never resort to impugning your patriotism, at all.
    (will try to respond, but might not be as clear or precise as I could be.)

    I personally do, make a moral distinction between “good/bad” “propaganda.” But, that’s strictly in it’s application. ( a fine point, fully concede.)
    “Triumph of the Will” for example, I would classify as exquisitely well done, “bad” propaganda.
    “Propaganda” defined as; “Italian, from modern Latin congregatio de propaganda fide ‘congregation for propagation of the faith’ (sense 2). Sense 1 dates from the early 20th cent.” (the “bad” version of propaganda, as in “spin” or “lies”)
    See how the Progressive’s take over the language?
    –I don’t have a problem with “propagating” Americanism, as long as it’s fundamentally “true.”

    Military Industrial Complex; yes, a concern. No question.

    — We must also remember that the Government doesn’t make weapons, they contract with private businesses who do. (Feds have on occasion nationalized private property in the past, to take absolute control over manufacturing of weapons.)

    Cronyism is always a concern.

    Practically every Corporation we can think of, manufactured war-material in WW2.
    Governments go to war with each other, they rely on business to conduct the war.
    That alone in & of itself, doesn’t imply nefarious stuff. Again, granted– Cronyism is always a concern. Always.

    tangent– Dupont was sued to death by the Feds after WW-1. Claims of “war profiteering,” — for which they were not really guilty, but had to disgorge a large chunk of their money.
    During the Manhattan Project in WW-2, Dupont was highly leery of working on the B-Reactor in Hanford, ( for a whole number of technical reasons,) but they also didn’t want to get sued to death later on for “profiteering” (Marxist application of a capitalism word-descriptor) They did the contract for “cost + $1,” if I’m not mistaken.

    As to the Mad Men clip: …”its a bunch of romanticized Hollywood, sentimental fantasy.”
    I know what mean (I think) but would respectively disagree.
    It’s “life.” “Reach out & touch someone” — telephones. “Kodak Moment,” cameras/film, etc..
    Quality advertising is a means of information-transfer in a capitalist-economy. “Good” advertising is remarkably true, in that it is information presented in a structured way. Kodak wasn’t “lying” or anything nefarious, they were presenting facts on a mundane product, using highly emotional elements. (HAR.. I have a Carousel slide-projector, it’s just a wheel yes, but it’s a “Time-Machine,” as well! Think about it! HA.)

    Product (& services) Differentiation, is an inherent feature (not a bug) in our capitalist-economy. It’s messy, but it’s efficient to a large degree, in dispersing knowledge and products to the widest number of people.

    The In Our Hands film is perhaps “better” but in differing aspect. Patriotism, “sense of shared community, “connection with like minded others,” “Democracy,” “freedom & Liberty,” are all very powerful elements for assisting in the continuity of our way-of-life. (not what we have morphed into, but rather the ideal for which we all once strived.)

    Full disclosure; I’ve worked in Community Mental Health type setting’s & in private Industry “mental health” and others. My skills were primarily in getting people to do what 1) they should do (in the case of CMH services; take your meds, stay off the drugs, cooperate with Tx.)
    & 2) what my employers wanted their customers to do (buy their products, etc., etc. a wide range of “actions” actually.)
    (was not in “advertising” as such, more akin to “research” but not exactly..)
    The methodology & elements are surprisingly similar, but at the CORE of what I did, was essentially “tell the truth” in the mostly highly efficient & targeted way I could pull engineer.
    brief example but not very precise; “if you keep using drugs you will get sick, again,” “if you stop taking your meds, you will get sick again. It’s way more nuanced & not always a negative reinforcer. (In fact positive-reinforcers are always preferred, easier to engineer & more productive.)
    –In the commercial-world, it’s similar, but more complex in carrying it out efficiently & productively.
    One vital thing– If I (or we) “ever lied we died.”
    In a sense, I cultivated long-term, mutually beneficial relationships, with people.”

    “Don’t hate me” (HAR) I never “manipulated” anyone, I helped show them the “light” as it were. (and I never ever abused my trust, with others or myself.)

    Good input.

    See the SpaceX launch? Fantastic!

  • wayne

    Cotour– one last comment on my previous post.
    I really enjoyed working with folks in Community Mental Health setting’s. You meet the most interesting people on Earth. They all have a story and they all deserve a fair shot. It is however, or rather can-be, very (extremely) coercive. Folks are literally at-the-mercy of people who often just don’t give a damn about their fellow American’s.
    –Who am I, to “tell you what to do?” it’s a huge responsibility. And if the Judge, for example, ordered you into treatment— it got coercive, fast.
    Private Industry was almost entirely egalitarian in nature. In those setting’s, we didn’t have the coercive power of the State forcing the customers to buy our stuff or do some other action we needed them to do. We had to sincerely convince people, or go bankrupt trying.
    Sadly– the infamous “big-business” Cartel, prefers to get the State to manage their customers.
    take care!

    Sorry to hear the 1st stage of the SpaceX launch, did not land, as-planned.

  • Cotour

    Yes, there is a big difference between “selling” something to the public and having them willingly buy something, and have them come to you by a court order and be mandated to “buy” something.

    I think that you found out that if someone is not in the right frame of mind and moment in their dependency cycle that there is nothing you can say or do to make them do a damn thing that you think they should be doing.

  • wayne

    You got me thinking again. (that, can be dangerous.. HAR!!)

    – Random Factoids that might interest you; contrary to popular-mythology, “illegal drugs” don’t inherently “cause” a huge percentage of mental-health-issues & it’s not just socio-economically deprived folks who wind up in community mental-health setting’s. (you’d be surprised how many of your neighbors access CMH type programs.) It’s turned into a mess & I blame the left.
    -Big problem we encountered in that setting, were folks who would develop “stimulant induced psychosis,” from their legally prescribed amphetamines or other stimulants. ‘Adderall’ is just mixed-amphetamine salts, “Ritalin” (methylphenidate) can produce the same effect.
    –It’s indistinguishable from Schizophrenia, initially.

    That being said, “over-use” & “mis-use” of psychotropic meds, illegal or legal, do exacerbate & can induce, mental health issues. It’s just not exactly how the media or the left portray it. (There’s a large genetic predisposition element.)
    That being said, again– overuse a whole number of substances, you will go “nuts” & you might never come back, and when that happens it becomes all of our problem.

    Interestingly– folks predisposed to get into problems with “illegal drugs” more often than not, (seriously) were actually trying to self-medicate an already underlying condition & then things just go downhill from that point if they continued to use drugs or alcohol.
    –Maybe 10% of our clients were Court-Ordered to Tx, the rest were completely voluntary. (not criminally involved in “crime” per-se but a demonstrated risk to themselves or the community.)
    –in the mid 90’s, The Feds prohibited Medicaid payments for folks who had a primary DX of “drug abuse,” overnight a large percentage were re-diagnosed as “bi-polar,” which is the DX that keeps on paying (billing.) I am NOT big on Statist “drug-treatment,” advocate– best thing with the those folks was to send them to AA every day.
    –vast majority of drug use (legal or illegal) is done because people LOVE to get high, on whatever their favorite mode is. Some people love to be “awake” some love to be sedated, and a very small fraction love psychedelics.
    –Vast majority of “recreational” users (again, legal & illegal) are actually solid citizens; they pay their taxes, mow their lawns, have families, work, the whole bit. (some vote for Communists, which does becomes our problem.)

    Now, please, before anyone tells me different—- look, I know, believe me I know up close & personal– seen every terrible cliché & tragedy you can imagine, and although I have a strong Libertarian bent, I’m not advocating we give “heroin to school children.” No way. (that’s ridiculous & a straw man argument.)

    Everyone has a Story, but it’s seldom the cliché we all think we know.

    If folks were sincere in their desire to change their ways (“drugs”) I would move heaven & earth to help, within my power. I put it all back on them, but was there to help.
    If they tried to scam-me, out the door– let the criminal-justice system deal with them.
    –I differentiate between the “drug” stuff & real mental-illness.
    My most-favorite people were Schizophrenics. An early onset disease, (20-s) and very real, if you can make it into your 30’s without developing schizophrenia, you’re pretty safe. (Until you get really old, then dementia gets you.) (How unfair is that! har)

    If we could catch the schizophrenics right when they started developing the disease, we could really make a difference. Unfortunately, about 1/3 never recover & 1/3 cycle but can live perfectly normal lives. ( large percentage of alcoholics are schizophrenics underneath.)
    –Totally proud I was able to help the most people I could, within the system I had to operate, live the highest quality lives’ they were able to make for themselves. (I tried very hard to never waste tax money, you fine citizen got your money’s worth out of me, always.)
    In the business realm, as I mentioned before, never did anything I wouldn’t stand up in Church and tell everyone. No regrets, no cronyism, no unethical stuff, and a lot of good success in the private sector.
    (FAR from perfect & boy have I F-ed up on occasion, but still chugging along.)
    Now, I just want to study physics & science & astronomy…. and try to save the Country I love.

    It’s never really been about us– it’s about our children & grand-children. My ancestors handed me a great Country, on a silver-platter. It’s the least I can try to do, to hand my progeny a better place than when I got here.
    –just my opinions and thank you to Mr. Z for allowing me to babble.

    Sad to hear the SpaceX 1st stage was not “entirely successful.” I’m leery of Musk, but nothing succeeds like actually doing it. Amazing stuff.

    We are all Living In The Future!

  • Steve Earle

    Great conversation here. One of several reasons I check Bob’s site a couple times a day :-)

    Wayne, I watched (and shared) that video clip. Reminds me of the films we watched in school. It’s too bad that the kids are now watching crap like “An Inconvenient Truth” instead…..

    Right here is a piece of Gold:

    “….Private Industry was almost entirely egalitarian in nature. In those setting’s, we didn’t have the coercive power of the State forcing the customers to buy our stuff or do some other action we needed them to do. We had to sincerely convince people, or go bankrupt trying.
    Sadly– the infamous “big-business” Cartel, prefers to get the State to manage their customers….”

    That one point is the heart of so many of our current issues. So many today believe that Capitalism is bad and Socialism is good, Why? Because so much of what we see today is Crony Capitalism. Companies “Too Big Too Fail” have captured government at all levels and use it to destroy their competition and force others to buy their products.

    I believe that renewed enforcement of Anti-Trust Laws, and Anti-Corruption Laws, combined with Term Limits at all levels would start to put things right.

    The drug discussion is also very interesting. I spent my career on the other side in Law Enforcement. It seemed to me that most people fall (roughly) into two categories : Addictive and Non-addictive. Addictive people were always looking for their next “high” (drugs, booze, gambling, sex, speeding, stealing, etc etc) and/or spending their energy fighting those urges. The Non-addictive people were blessed to be (mostly) free of those issues, but cursed to be the enablers and the ones forced to clean up the messes…..

    I always judge issues by what the end effects will be on children. Legalize something and it will be more available to children. Restrict something and it will be less available. Simplistic, but in my experience, True.

    I am also a believer in the Carrot and Stick approach to most things. Humans are animals at heart, give them a reason to do something, and ALSO a reason to not do the opposite, and you will get better results.

  • Cotour

    This story is more germane to the subject of this panel and it demonstrates how the intent of a rule, law or policy can be perverted way beyond its intent to the point that it has incentivized Disney to under cut the American middle class, Bottom line profits over the stability of your own country’s economy. :

    Trump may “evolve” on the subject but what is important is to understand that each action has an equal and opposite reaction, it just may not be understood exactly what that reaction may be at the initial point of implementing the rule, policy or law.

    Adjustments and “evolution” are called for when A Moral, soul less corporations choose to make decisions that destroy intent, and that SHOULD be the fiduciary responsibility of the political class to make those adjustments.

    This unfortunately is short circuited by the power of money and influence and the surrendering of empowered politicians fiduciary responsibilities. So the term “free market” can have different meanings at different times to different individuals. I think I know how the general American member of the public thinks about such things.

    H1B Visa, it has a valuable function, but when it is plainly allowed to be abused in the interest of a multinational corporation to the detriment of the country within which it is operating then steps must be taken to re-balance the abused rule, law or policy. So allow Trump or anyone else to “evolve” as long as it is in the correct direction.

    PS: I will never go to or buy any Disney product.

  • Cotour

    Political reality:

    How much worse could he be than Obama? How much better?

  • Steve Earle

    March 5, 2016 at 9:22 am

    “….what is important is to understand that each action has an equal and opposite reaction, it just may not be understood exactly what that reaction may be at the initial point of implementing the rule, policy or law….”

    ^^ Here is another piece of Gold and, like Wayne’s quote above, it gets to the heart of an issue.

    The Law of Unintended Consequences is something Liberals are unfamiliar with. They love to Social Engineer out of a sense of emotional good intentions (the useful idiots that is, the leaders are corrupt power-mongers).

    The Left has failed to solve ANY social or economic issue facing this country in the last hundred years. Yet they are never held accountable for that record.

    Why? Because the Right has become complicit in the game and/or has become afraid to stand up and defend conservative principles…..

  • Cotour

    Ask yourself this question:

    Does socialism create wealth?

    The answer is NO. (it can not create wealth, at a fundamental level, by definition it can only for the most part redistribute wealth)

    Capitalism creates wealth, a bigger pie for the people to share in. It literally creates MORE in the economy.

    A socialist or Liberal will reverse and up end the entire conversation and tell you that your sole obligation is to work in order for them to confiscate what you have created so that they can redistribute it. They are selling you insanity.

    Dirty, filthy capitalism creates all wealth in our economy, enough so that there is plenty left over to pay reasonable taxes in order to achieve civilization and proper governance. In the reverse logic of the left your obligation to produce supersedes your right to your own happiness in spending the majority of your well earned wealth as you see fit.

    I will go out on a limb here and say that I have to assume that Trump, somewhere under that crazy head of hair and “large” pair of hands understands these fundamental concepts.

  • “I will go out on a limb here and say that I have to assume that Trump, somewhere under that crazy head of hair and “large” pair of hands understands these fundamental concepts.”

    This is a very dangerous assumption, especially since we have very little evidence of its correctness. Instead, the evidence we have suggests that Trump plays the crony capitalist game whenever he can, and will play that game aggressively when president. And anyone who plays that game likes using government for their own personal ends, which is nothing more than a variation of either socialism or fascism.

  • Cotour

    While I understand what you mean, this statement really does not indicate what you suggest, it is in fact correct. (Unless you are asserting that Trump is totally unaware of the concepts of capitalism, which would be an interesting position to take.)

    ““I will go out on a limb here and say that I have to assume that Trump, somewhere under that crazy head of hair and “large” pair of hands understands these fundamental concepts.””

    Trump certainly understands the fundamental concepts of capitalism, that was tong in cheek. Your concern is whether he will not have the proper self control on his natural animal tendencies if and when he is empowered by the people as the president. This is the point at which he must step back and understand where he is and raise himself above those natural animal tendencies. George Washington? Or another Barack Obama?

    This creative destruction that we are witnessing in the Republican party is scary but it appears that it may well be executed, as the leadership fights it with every drop of their treasonous, crony, political strength. There will be change, and it will be messy, and upsetting, we will survive it and after the chaos there will be something of a new political paradigm that exists. (?)

    It is all part of the process, its the fact that there will be a more or less civilized and proscribed process that is the more important fact here.

  • Cotour

    I’m interested Z, what did you think of Romney’s speech?

  • wayne

    Steve by Man!
    –Good deal on the Law Enforcement end!!
    Tend to agree with your characterization of people in general. (Had some interesting experiences with straight-up thieves, robbers, etc. They all got a huge rush out of their activities often exceeding their economic gain from it all.)
    –We always had a solid rapport with the police. They do a lot of “social-work” type stuff, but ultimately they just enforce laws passed by the legislature.
    (I am not a social-worker!) Police were happy to see me; first question was always, “is this person really “mentally ill?” More often that not the answer was, “acting “crazy” but… “no,”… do what you need to do & no-one from our end will complain later.”
    –Most people in jail/prison have “broken the law.” Whether the “law” is right, good, or reasonable, is open to discussion. People by and large are just upset they got caught, and play the victim.
    Would differ slightly on the whole “economics of drug-prohibition” and availability, but absolutely get your main point with that.
    “Carrot & stick,” approach– Yeah! My skill was using both ends of that coin.

    Glad you liked the film-clip. It’s exactly what they used to show in schools. My humble opinion is: schools should reinforce our heritage & of course, teach people to be able to think logically from that underpinning. Of course it’s presenting a specific view, but we need Institutions (not government solely) to hold the Fabric of Our Civil-Society together. A huge amount of that has been totally taken over by the State & although we are the most generous people on Earth, our Civil (& religious) Institutions have been systematically undermined by the Progressives.
    -You might really enjoy listening to Richard Epstein. He appears on the JB show fairly regularly, but can be found at He has more solid idea’s, per-sentence, than anyone I have ever listened to. Brilliant Classical-Liberal & an expert on Anti-Trust, Regulation, and SCOTUS (and Roman Law btw)
    –He just did a seminar that was very interesting; After our Constitution was written, the Dutch & Germans prepared translations in their own languages. His contention is the entire New Deal should have been totally unconstitutional & stricken down (completely), given the actual meaning of the words used, in our contextual & common understanding. (This is why I like “originalist,” Judges.)
    FDR tried to stack the Court after all..
    –Yo, get on board with the Article 5 movement. Founder’s inserted Article 5 as an “in case of Tyranny, break this glass,” type firewall. State Legislatures need to wrestle control of the Country back from the centralized Fed government. We can handle Term Limits, SCOTUS, the whole bit…

    Cotour; Always interesting stuff & appreciate your input. I understand from where you are coming but, I’m going to have to agree with Mr. Z on Trump.

    Business is all about surviving, but they go far astray when then get intertwined with the coercive State. Competition is HARD, but when the State & Crony’s get together, we are the one’s who suffer. Our Founder’s knew this.
    “If Men were Angels, there would be no need for Government.” The trick was to establish a Government among non-Angels & to simultaneously impart power into a Government but not enough to destroy the people.
    –Some say the only “righteous” Congress, was the 1st one, by the time the 2nd was elected, folks were already scheming to utilize the State for their own ends.
    –If we don’t elect “virtuous” Leaders, we are going down. (Been going down, it’s accelerating exponentially.) (or is that “geometrically?”)
    — Don’t approve of Cronyism, but understand well, how it gets established.
    Highly recommend, “Theory of Moral Sentiment’s” by Adam Smith. Go to for 6 hours of audio discussion on reading it, then give it a whirl. Heavy stuff given the grammar of the era, but an incredible explanation for & defense of, Capitalism.
    as an aside, Marx was a brilliant Economist of sorts, but he makes a fatal flow right off the bat & the rest of it (manifesto) is just wishful-thinking. (his personal life & what-not, leads a great deal to be desired as well.)

    I didn’t have to do the “Duck & Cover” drills but was well aware of the titanic struggle between “Statism” in all it’s forms, and our system, when I was a kid. Thought we had snuffed it out, once and for all with the demise of the USSR. But many of our own citizens are completely in-love with it now.

    Good points made by all.

  • wayne

    Not at all convinced Trump understands Capitalism. Real-estate is unlike most every other business– it’s heavy on creative-accounting for the precise reason the Tax Code favors his type of wheeling-n-dealing. You can’t for example, depreciate your own house, you can depreciate a rental-property.
    You or I, for example, can’t pay-off the local Government to have our property taxes cancelled for say “10 years,” (under some phony “enterprise zone”) , if we start a business in our Pole Barn & hire 2 people. In fact, they will charge us more!

    “Creative Destruction,” — agree slightly, but the GOP are more like Buggy-Whip manufacturers who do not realize they should start making car-parts. They would rather have the State coerce and maintain their existence.

    Again, good points made by all. (just don’t agree with every one of them.)

  • Laurie

    ♫ … Let’s call the whole thing off … ♫

  • wayne

    Laurie wrote:

    ♫ … Let’s call the whole thing off … ♫

    HAR! — that made me laugh out loud!

  • Cotour

    You do not call off the juggernaut of change, you can resist it, or you can get out of its way, but you can not call it off.

  • wayne

    Starting to get some preliminary results from todays cauc-i. Should be interesting. (I believe they are predominately closed, (but not sure on that) as-in registered Republicans only.)

    I’m in Michigan (primary next Tuesday) & we are getting slammed with political adverts & junk mail. Just saw TV adverts for Trump, Rubio, Cruz, and Bernie, all in one commercial break!
    Michigan btw = Detroit metro area is heavily democrat, (3 largest counties in Mi by population) (Dearborn- home of Henry Ford Museum– they call it “Dearborn-A-Stan” now, heavily Muslim immigrant’s.) Even the darn signs are in Arabic, more-n-more. (That’s unsettling– it really is– & I’m not a hater, just don’t have a “huuuugggge” degree of trust going on.) [My Grandparents HAD to learn English, real fast, when they came to Michigan. Heavy Dutch ancestry on the western shoreline.]
    -Lake Michigan shoreline is heavily Republican (with a heavy illegal component, big Fruit-belt area) while Ann Arbor & Lansing are lefty strongholds. ( State University’s, tenured radical Profs & young misinformed students.)

    At the risk of enabling a thread that won’t die (HAR… I’m smiling!)
    –Anyone see the Trump phenomenon as being a mirror (of sorts) of the Obama-mania ‘thang?

  • Cotour

    IMO, Obama was the push back reaction to the abuses of G.Bush jr., Trump is more the push back to the treachery of the leadership of the Republican party as they gave Obama just about everything that he endeavored to attain. They said one thing and then did the exact opposite, Plain and simple.

    This creative destruction is a long time coming.

  • wayne

    At the risk of being a thread-monopolizer (HAR):

    Strongly recommend a neat story by the French Economist, Bastiat. Title is something like, “On the Petition of the French Candle-Makers.”

    It’s a satire about Paris Candle-Maker’s who petition the King to control the Sun, because, well… they make candles & the Sun takes their daytime business away.

    He also wrote an extremely insightful paper called (something like) “The Seen & Unseen.” Where-in he describes glass-maker’s (and others) who favor people breaking-windows, (and otherwise “breaking stuff.”) because it “creates business.”
    He carefully explains why that is an illogical way of thinking & economically false.

    Ever hear the Media, (and some foolish Economist’s) after a natural-disaster, say something like, “Rebuilding will boost the local economy?”
    That’s crazy— we always see what IS produced, but we rarely think of what is NOT produced because it couldn’t be produced due to lack of resources/labor.

    We live in a world of Scarcity, allocation of Resources & Labor is pure “scarcity-management.” (Capitalism is perhaps the best methodology ever invented for more efficient/fair resource-allocation– we all get to vote with our money. That’s pure-egalitarianism!)

    Remember the phrase “Guns or Butter?” shorthand for a complex situation where more of one thing (necessarily) leads to a lack of another– it’s always a trade-off amongst “guns or butter”.
    –Vietnam era was one in which LBJ decided we could have both guns and butter, (and big-Space). i.e pay for a war & the “great society” welfare programs, at the same time. (Some insist that’s when the Fed blew 130% of our “Social Security” money. We had a war, LBJ, and “big-Space” with the Apollo program, all at once, with no real tax increase to pay for it all. ) (the resulting Inflation hit us in the early 1970’s.)

    Personally– I like Space, but I like Mr. Z’s version of private-space, more!)

    HIGHLY recommend the “Keynes Vs. Hayek Rap-Videos.” Innovative & fun method to explain complex economic theories to a younger crowd, via “rap.”
    and “Round Two” (which is really (really) good!)

    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”
    – F. A . Hayek, The Fatal Conceit

  • wayne


    Agree that The GOP/RNC “created” Trump, but this is not necessarily a “good thing.”
    The anger of the people is absolutely real. Not convinced Trump is the conduit through which our wishes will be granted.

    Last one from me on “economics”– (exceptionally well done & “cute.”)
    “Deck the Halls with Macro Follies”

  • Garry

    Like many things, Trump (and Obama before him) are Rorschach Tests; we don’t know much about them, so we make our own assumptions, reflect our hopes/fears in them.

    I try to remember this before taking a definitive stance; this applies not only to politicians, but also to scandals, cases of white cops shooting black youths, etc.

    Much like the scientific process, we should try to observe, ask questions, and see where the observations take us rather than trying to make the observations fit out conclusions.

  • Cotour

    Nothing is necessarily a “good thing”.

    Good, better, best.

    What we will have to work with is what we will have to work with. You can not work with what it is that you do not have.

    I will take Trump, I will take Cruz, and I think when all is said and done that in the end that is what we will have to work with.

    So either are a “good thing”. You may see Cruz as being better than Trump or visa versa, but you will live in the end with what you have, as will I.

  • wayne

    Gary & Cotour;

    All good observations, appreciate the input. (We all benefit from “reality testing,” that is, bouncing ideas off other people.)
    I could possibly be persuaded to a Trump under some special alternative-reality circumstance I am not aware of or facing at this point in time, but the more I find out about him, the more he fits very neatly into my “nope” category. (But “never say never,” ya know? HAR)

    –One of my “big things” right at this moment; We aren’t even done with the Repub Primaries yet! All this “inevitable” stuff is being fed to us, IMO.

    Voting for Cruz next Tuesday– that’s 100% with me. Come summer-time, it’s going to be weird at the Convention, of that I am 100% confident.
    Rinse Prius is a consummate insider crony– he engineered two bad Candidates against a Marxist, because it benefitted him and all the crony’s, no matter what they say in their defense.

    I mean, yow-za…. The DOJ, IRS, FEC, whomever, could open investigations on Trump tomorrow. Sincerely believe the minute he were to become the Repub Nominee— we would start seeing endless, daily, non-stop media attacks exposing exactly who he is. (and they wouldn’t even need to make anything up.)
    Granted, he scares the Establishment because they know their particular status-quo cronyism would be threatened, but I don’t believe Trumps particular variant of cronyism is any better than what we have now.
    I just can’t buy that horse.

    Obama never fooled me– he scared me to death. (It all started with his Illinois campaign and just got worse.) I think we are all well aware of everything he has done, with which most of us disagree.
    anyway… results coming in tonight which look promising to Cruz (and Trump)

    Wrote a lengthy post, primarily on Economics, that is “awaiting moderation” must have droned on too much or put too many links into it and triggered the “auto-hold” feature. HAR.
    (No offense taken at all Mr. Z.!– I’m a guest in your house here!)

    Check it out if it magically appears above, later on.

    Again– everyone here is Great. You all like science, politics, and you all care!
    Can’t beat that!

  • wodun

    I don’t think Trump has a good grasp of “conservative” ideals. He may not be a Hitler but he isn’t a conservative standard bearer either.

    What he is, is a centrist populist establishmentesque candidate with no ideological center. His grasp of the issues are not great but his ability to read what people want is phenomenal. I don’t know if he would push the limits of his constitutional authority but it hardly matters because the limits have already been pushed and precedents set. So, we could expect him to do the same types of things Obama has done and got away with.

    This is a knock on Trump but I also think all of the candidates would do much the same but perhaps in different ways. I think this is the most overlooked part of Obama’s legacy and people blame Trump for what might happen rather than the man who made it possible and not just for Trump but for Hillary, Sanders, Rubio, and Cruz.

    I think Trump supporters would be disappointed in him because his positions can change at any time. He might very well “get things done” in congress because he knows how to throw money around. He would be a status quo President.

    I don’t know if this would be a bad thing necessarily. Bill Clinton and GWB weren’t perfect but they did ok. Our history is filled with Presidents who worked the system and here we are, still kicking. So, I don’t think he is a Hitler that would destroy the country but he doesn’t have the qualities I desire nor do I think he would run government the way I prefer it ran.

    What candidate wants to roll back the precedents Obama has set? Or Bush for that matter?

  • Steve Earle

    Trump is a Populist, not a Conservative or even a Republican. That doesn’t make him Evil, sometimes a Populist can get things done when others can’t, but it does mean you keep both eyes open because he can and will change to suit the moment w/o regards to a Moral Compass.

    The “Art of the Deal” is his anchor, not the Constitution.

    As far as Econ 101: I am a Milton Friedman guy. His “Capitalism and Freedom” was my guide in college when I was being bombarded with neo-marxists everyday at UMass.

    Here’s a short clip of him on a talk show answering a question about Greed:

  • wayne

    Steve my Man!

    Yes, Milton Friedman was brilliant! “Free to Choose!”
    Excellent clip.
    I also love Hayek & Mises. They knew what European economic craziness was, up close & personal.

    wodun– yes, Trump is no Hitler, he just uses similar appeals-to-emotion. He is expert at tapping into the discontent of legitimately angry people. That would be great IF he was grounded in Constitutional principles but I am just not seeing even a hint of that at all.

    Has Trump ever said anything like, “I’ll let the free-market work & shrink Government?”

    “He would be a status quo President.”
    –yes, just a different constituency to pay off.

  • Edward

    On the topic of Keynes and economics, it can be shown why it has never worked: because it cannot work.
    “Government can’t inject money into the economy without first taking money out of the economy.”

    “The Keynesian theory is based upon the notion that there will be an increase in overall available cash, yet that clearly is not the case.”

    “Even left-wing international bureaucracies are producing research showing that bigger government hurts economic performance by misallocating national resources.”

    Indeed, Keynesian economics violates grammar school economic lessons: the supply/demand/price curve. Keynesian economics assumes that the economy is stimulated by increased demand, but as we learned in third grade, increased demand results in higher prices, which results in decreased demand; thus the economy is not stimulated.

    Wayne wrote: “I also love Hayek & Mises.”

    Remember Bastiat: “That Which Is Seen and That Which Is Not Seen.” Too many people miss the unseen parts, and that leads to unintended consequences.

  • wayne

    Edward My Man!

    You have a good grasp of Econ!

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