I am ashamed of the police
The nation’s police are supposed to be there to serve and to protect, to defend our laws and the Constitution, and to protect the ordinary innocent citizens pursuing life, liberty, and happiness — as declared in our Declaration of Independence — from criminals hostile to those fundamental rights.
In the past six weeks, however, too many cops have instead become storm troopers, thugs with no common sense who also seem to relish the sudden power they have been given by fascist governors and local officials who have arbitrarily and irrationally imposed lock downs and social distancing rules in their panic over the Wuhan flu.
Below are some examples, all of which show police either harassing, arresting, or pursuing individuals who are clearly in circumstances that make them no threat to anyone. Moreover, they are often alone or somewhat isolated, meaning there is no way for them to help spread the Wuhan flu. Yet the police move in aggressively, in a very obscene manner.
In Texas the police sent our a SWAT team to shut down a restaurant, even though the owner spoke with the police beforehand and was told there would be no police action if the owner made sure no guns were in the restaurant, since it serves liquor. The owner complied. The police still showed up, guns drawn
In Arizona two cops entered a man’s jewelry store and arrested the owner because he hadn’t closed it as ordered by the governor. The store was empty other than the owner. The owner had also changed his business license and some of the products he sold to make it an essential business. Didn’t matter to the cops, who handcuffed him and treated him like a criminal. Watch the video here. It will make you sick.
In Pennsylvania a woman was driving alone in her car. She had decided to do this because she was going stir crazy at home due to her governor’s panicked lock down order. A cop pulled her over, gave her a $200 citation for violating that lock down order, claiming he had pulled her over because she had a non-working tail light.
He was lying of course. When she got home the tail light was working fine. This thug cop simply wanted to harass an innocent solitary woman, showing her that he’s a big boss who can push little people around.
In Idaho a cop arrested and handcuffed a mother because she was in a playground with her children.
And then there’s video of a solitary runner on a beach in California, closed by fiat by Gavin Newsom, the fascist Democratic governor. A policeman attempts to apprehend him for daring to violate Newsom’s order, even though his action is completely harmless, he is totally alone, and the beach closure was arbitrary and would do nothing to prevent the spread of the Wuhan flu. The added background music illustrates nicely the dumbness of this police chase.
How idiotic does that cop have to be to go after this runner? What is that jack-booted storm trooper going to accomplish if he tackles the runner, other than to make himself look like a thug while increasing the chances that either he or the runner will actually catch coronavirus? Has he lost his ability to think and become like the fools in 1930s Germany, a robot who simply follows orders, no matter how vile or stupid?
These examples are only a small sampling. In the past six weeks we’ve seen a large percentage of our law enforcement community go as insane as our political leaders. They have become brain-dead power-hungry totalitarians, interested only in enforcing the orders of their superiors, without thought or common sense, while bullying innocent and very harmless citizens.
I don’t want to give the impression that all the police have behaved in this ugly manner. Fortunately the chiefs for a number of police departments have publicly come out and told their governments that they will not enforce these pig-headed lock downs. I am also sure that a large number of ordinary cops have simply looked the other way when they saw a “violation.” Such decent actions of course are not recorded, so of course we can’t document them.
Nonetheless, it is the bad apples that we do see, and they truly leave me with a very very bad impression of the police. I also suspect that I am not alone in this, and that many ordinary Americans will no longer view the police as allies but as enemies. If anything, they have confirmed the accusations of many black leftist activists in the past decade, that many police abuse their power.
So what should the police have done when faced with unconstitutional and irrational orders from their superiors? Well, listen to the words of this Marine veteran, haranguing a line of police blocking a lock down protest in Sacramento, California.
In the military we are trained to ask, ‘What’s a lawful order?’ You’ve got to check your nutsack when you’re given an order and you’ve got to say, ‘Is this a lawful order or is this a [obscenity] order?’ And when something’s a [obscenity] order and it doesn’t pass the sniff test, that’s when you say, ‘Sergeant,’ that’s when you say, ‘Colonel,’ that’s when you say ‘General,’ that’s when you say, ‘Governor, I’m not doing that.’
Watch the whole tape. That line of riot police slowly stands down as they listen to this Marine vet. They suddenly wake up and realize they are doing something that is wrong.
We need more police to do the same thing. Fast. And loudly.
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They may have just made a fatal error. There is video of white Jersey City, New Jersey police officers beating a black man with batons for not following social distancing rules.
I grew up in a “law and order” household, my father was a Deputy District Attorney in Los Angeles county, and so I spent a lot of time around attorneys, judges, and police officers. I worked for the LA DA’s office for a year while in college, where I saw a lot of the details of what is coming in the front end from the various police, sheriffs etc in that area. And what I saw then, and have seen change over the years, is that so many of these agencies are fighting a losing war against drugs, gangs, and the various other habitual criminals that they just can’t deal with, and it poisons their ability to deal with actual law abiding citizens.
A lot of people I know say don’t worry about the police. They’re on our side and won’t enforce tyranny. Maybe some, but evidently there are quite a few wannabe jack booted thugs. But they can only go so far before citizens push back.
The real problem will be the secret police. When they come in balaclavas backed by a secret FISA court analog, well then we’ve got real problems.
But it can’t happen here.
In the military we are trained to ask, ‘What’s a lawful order?’ You’ve got to check your nutsack when you’re given an order and you’ve got to say, ‘Is this a lawful order or is this a [obscenity] order?’ And when something’s a [obscenity] order and it doesn’t pass the sniff test, that’s when you say, ‘Sergeant,’ that’s when you say, ‘Colonel,’ that’s when you say ‘General,’ that’s when you say, ‘Governor, I’m not doing that.’
Bob I LOVE this! Where did this come from? Can you atribute it? It is spot on. And you can’t make a comment like this if you don’t understand your rights, where they come from, have the strength of your convictions (and have convictions to begin with), and realize you not only have a right to say NO, but as a Free Man, the DUTY. Consequences be damed.
Steve: Right click on the video and pick “Copy video URL.” Paste this into your browser. It will take you the youtube page for the video. You can then click on the link to the videographer’s channel, dubbed The Scoop.
The bottom line however is that this video captured this moment, when it happened.
And it came from the top law enforcement agency heads:
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/496699-comey-mccabe-slams-justice-dropping-flynn-case-as-pure-politics
Of course they do not see it quite that way for the obvious reasons.
Abuse of power in law enforcement combined with sedition, that’s how I see it.
The police enforce the laws politicians pass, and they have a certain set of skills to do so. Be upset with the politicians who tell them what to do.
I have no problem with the actions of the governments locking down everything: If this were GMO smallpox! What Russia and others have done is inserted genes into smallpox to make them resistant to vaccines, hence the term GMO. Early work by Australia used 2 or 3 strains of mouse-pox. Results were duplicated in America with 7 strains of mouse-pox
Now, by VASTLY overreacting, we the people will have nothing to do with the lock-downs even when GMO smallpox is released. With a %30 mortality rate and gruesome conditions for those who recover, it will not be pleasant by any stretch of the imagination!
President Trump took early action when less was known about the disease and I find no fault in the early cutting travel from China. He is doing his best to open things up.
This protest in the video really was needed because of the draconian action of the local (state) government. To see the police leave was great!
However, I worry about WHEN an actual real scenario happens now that these legislators have cried wolf!
To keep millions of people out of work is absolutely unacceptable. The data from Sweden may the most important for science.
“The police enforce the laws politicians pass, and they have a certain set of skills to do so. Be upset with the politicians who tell them what to do.”
“I was just obeying orders” wasn’t acceptable then and isn’t acceptable now
You have to have the cojones to say, “This wrong, boss, and I’m not going to do it”
I’ve had the “fun” experience of disagreeing with orders that have been given.
Primary leadership development courses in the military emphasize the hard right over the easy wrong. Sometimes you just have to put your foot down and say no.
commodude: What about getting fellow officers, of your same rank, to put their foot down as well? For example, you say no, and your supervisor then turns to someone else to get them to do it, and they say sure, I can be a thug if that’s what you want. Do you just shrug or do you try to stop it?
V for Vendetta:
The Dominoes Fall
https://youtu.be/yrwTDfdck7I?t=188
Robert,
It’s called leadership. At times you HAVE to rally against the orders being given. It’s not a comfortable place to be in the beginning, but once vindicated, it’s a relief.
Strength of convictions backed by being right can be a rallying point.
My comments to others in one of those situations aren’t fit for the website, however, I kept my stripes, the orders died, and the person who gave the orders? Well, eventually it came to light that he wasn’t the shining example of an NCO he was supposed to be, and was retired.
commodude: You illustrate one of the problems we are having with the police today. Not enough officers willing to lead and demand the others stop doing stupid, illegal, and offensive things.
And what about the psychopath?
https://www.oann.com/republican-governors-on-keeping-their-states-open/
An interesting way to do it!
We-the-people are being pushed into taking our country back by force. If that happens you-the-politicians (and your thugs) are going to die very violent deaths. It’s that simple. Tread lightly thugs. We outnumber you thousands-to-one and you’re asking for it.
Buffalo Springfield –
“For What It’s Worth”
1967
https://youtu.be/gp5JCrSXkJY
2:37
“Paranoia strikes deep,
Into your life it will creep.
It starts when you’re always afraid,
Step out the line, the men come and take you away….”
The oath of office, sworn to by civil servants in California, reads as such:
” Oath of Allegiance for Persons Employed by the State of California and State Civil Defense Volunteers
(Required by Chapter 8, Division 4, Title 1 of Government Code)
THIS OATH MUST BE ADMINISTERED BY A NOTARY PUBLIC OR OTHER OFFICIAL AUTHORIZED BY LAW TO ADMINISTER OATHS. NO FEE MAY BE CHARGED FOR ADMINISTERING THIS OATH (Section 3104 of Government Code)
I, [Type or Print Name] do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter.
And I do further swear (or affirm) that I do not advocate, nor am I a member of any party or organization, political or otherwise, that now advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United States or of the State of California by force or violence or other unlawful means; that within the five years immediately preceding the taking of this oath (or affirmation) I have not been a member of any party or organization, political or otherwise, that advocated the overthrow of the Government of the United States or of the State of California by force or violence or other unlawful means except as follows: (If no affiliations, write in the words `No Exceptions’ ) and that during such time as I am a member or employee of the University of California I will not advocate nor become a member of any party or organization, political or otherwise, that advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United States or of the State of California by force or violence or other unlawful means. ”
I’m sure that at least some of those officers present at the event above, surely had in mind the part of the oath saying “I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States” just before they left the scene. Good on them.
In many places local pols are using armed fire marshals as the local thugs harassing businesses. I’m ashamed at how few people even understand enough about being an American to tell these folk to get lost until they come back with a warrant. Those business owners who have pop up in stories but most “comply” and let these thugs in to look around there businesses. Simply taking a snitch call is not cause for action if no violation is in plain sight but the ignorant just let them in. It’s almost as if they deserve they tickets for caring so little for their own rights.
Before CV19 I supported law enforcement. Now I see that they’re little better than the last gaggle of brownshirts who claimed they were “just following orders.” Seeing the nations cops so enthusiastically violating the rights of Americans at the behest of corrupt Democrat “leaders” removes any doubt in my mind that they WILL come for your guns when the Democrats decide to abolish the 2A.
The behavior of our LEO’s since the China Cough has been “less than stellar” (between the NYPD and Jersey City PD’s Civil Rights violations just since Saturday) >
Now, the Better Than You people said ‘data data data’ before THEY ALLOW US
To live again.
Bunk.
Just an actual almost normal year.
Except for the OLDER say over 45, FAT, diabetic or already treading water in life…
From ME, a 5-time Cancer survivor.
Now
Go live your lives
Mr. Zimmerman: I would be obliged if you tell me what you mean when you call someone a “fascist” e.g.:
“…by fiat by Gavin Newsom, the fascist Democratic governor. ”
Does this match what Mussolini defined it as:
https://www.constitution.org/tyr/mussolini.htm
or his shorter rule of thumb which I prefer:
“Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”
Gavin Newsom falls way short of either definition. It looks to me that you define fascism as “Something I don’t like that I’ll call by a name everyone dislikes to spare my readers (and me) the labor of writing what I mean.”
This isn’t a quibble. Think of all the times Lefties shout “Racist!” not only to express anger, but to shut down discussion AND to damage their target. It’s effective in causing damage, though less so than it used to be. Another example is the noxious Ihlan Omar who tweeted recently that the charges against Michael Flynn were dropped because of “white privilege” Watch that meme infect the Left, shutting down any thought about why the charges were really dropped.
Your next point is a noble ideal, viz:
“In the military we are trained to ask, ‘What’s a lawful order?’ You’ve got to check your nutsack when you’re given an order and you’ve got to say, ‘Is this a lawful order or is this a [obscenity] order?’ And when something’s a [obscenity] order and it doesn’t pass the sniff test, that’s when you say, ‘Sergeant,’ that’s when you say, ‘Colonel,’ that’s when you say ‘General,’ that’s when you say, ‘Governor, I’m not doing that.’”
Having the moral courage to stand up to your bosses on these grounds is scarce. We know that FBI/Special Counsel Mueller’s office has none of this courage. Let’s see if it’s present here:
When Captain Crozier of the USS T ROOSEVELT sent his notorious email about his ship’s Wuhan flu condition, was he acting on a “doesn’t pass the sniff test” order and gathering his courage?
Or not?
Many thanks for your time.
“
Captain Crozier violated OPSEC and the chain of command.
You DON’T wave a red flag to the world saying that a CVBG is out of business. There ARE ways within the chain to deal with those situations that don’t involve breaching OPSEC. (operational security)
The way it was handled screams Drama Queen, and that’s someone who shouldn’t be in charge of a massive piece of the United States defense apparatus.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
Thomas Jefferson
“Captain Crozier violated OPSEC and the chain of command.”
He emailed his letter to 3 Admirals and 7 captains, 2 of those captains were executive assistants to the admirals the other 5 captains were officers aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt. So he definitely violated the chain of command, not so sure about his violating OPSEC though, as I understand it there’s no suggestion that he leaked the letter to other parties.
I’m not a military man but going above your immediate superior is usually a bad idea, he should have put his career on the table (offered to resign his commission) to demonstrate his commitment to his position, a competent superior would not have taken the resignation of a good officer lightly.
I once read that Napoleon Bonaparte said that if an officer were to receive an order that he knew to be bad he should resign his commission rather than carry out an order that would needlessly throw away the lives of him men.
That sound about right Commodude? (as it’s your area of expertise).
For those who want to attribute the source: runner is Mario Ferri and the Beach is close to Pescara, Italy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_uEnB0HW0w
A professional streaker (clothed) and way out of the league of any clumsy stormtrooper.
Was unfortunately hunted down with a drone and fined €4000
You are not alone in the US of A, we have more than our share of this madness.
Commodude,
The Teddy Roosevelt was already out of service and tied up to a pier in Guam. Anyone with access to Satellite Photos KNEW it was deadlined, and had been for days. I knew that just from watching TV here in the Midwest.
We already had the example of the Pacific Princess Cruise Ship in Japan, where no matter what they did, they could not stop the spread of the Chinese Coronavirus amongst the crew and passengers. Compare that spacious cruise ship to the berths in a CVN, where the crew bunks are separated by inches.
Anyone with brains knew that the Chinese Wuhan Flu was going to infect most of the crew, unless they were removed from the ship, spread out and quarantined for at least two full weeks.
Captain Crozier knew he was falling on his sword by sending out the letter. He knew he toasted his career, but did it anyway. He saved a quarter of his crew from the Chinese Coronavirus.
Sheepdogs do what the ranchers tell them to do. In return they hold a favored position at the ranch. They live better than the other animals, round up the lamb bucks when its time to make them into whethers (can’t have too many rams), are fed occasional table scraps, and the prize studs get a chance to breed.
Always remember this: Police work for the local mayor. Police have very generous pensions that kick in very early–in some cases a cop can retire on full benefits at 40. He could then go to work for a sheriff, or another police department, and earn a second pension to retire at 60.
Police will not put that sweet, sweet retirement at risk by balking at a mayor’s instructions. They might decline to shoot someone who is not a risk, but they won’t defend you if the mayor says not to. Remember, police work for the mayor, and take orders from the mayor.
Sheriffs are elected on their own, and sometimes report to a county commission, but their deputies also want that sweet, sweet pension. They also cannot resisit playing soldier, as we saw in Ector County, Texas, when they deployed an armored vehicle to arrest a bar owner who had already told them she would not resist.
It is okay to be polite to law enforcement people–it’s probably a good idea. But cooperation is risky to you, as they can and will lie. Do not trust them. They do not trust you.
One of the sadder things in recent history I have seen is the generally contemptuous behavior on the part of ordinary police toward ordinary citizens. Trust me, this did not happen when I was younger. It is ominous.
Too little is publicly know to make judgement here — not that that will stop anyone. One thing that is know is that Acting Secretary Modly lied when he said Capt. Crozier copied the message in question to 20 to 30 other people when in fact it was sent to three admirals in Crozier chain of command and copied to exactly 7 other recipients, all Captains. (Presumably captains of other ships — one would assume this would include the members of his Carrier Strike Group — but further details have not been revealed.) Modly paid for this and is gone. If Crozier sent this with the expectation that it would be leaked (as Modly also claimed), then he certainly shouldn’t be reinstated, and I trust the Navy’s own internal strict discipline. (Ship captains aren’t forgiven much.)
The Navy’s initial investigation conducted via remote interviews from D.C. cleared Crozier sufficiently for everyone up through the CNO and the new acting SECNAV to recommend his reinstatement, an unprecedented reversal. The Chairman of the JCS recommended that action be deferred until a more thorough investigation is completed, presumably not wanting any possibility of future new information leading the Navy to re-reverse themselves. The SECDEF concurred and that is where we currently stand.
Someone certainly violated OPSEC and they should be found out and made to pay dearly. If the rat is fingered, then hopefully the Blabbermouth-in-Chief can keep his trap shut this time. If it weren’t for his best attempts at unlawful command influence (what would be UCI had he been in uniform), that deserter Bergdahl would have served hard time. “But I think people have heard my comments in the past.” Sheesh, how infantile!
Thanks Andrew, I hadn’t realized further identities of the recipients had been revealed.
D3F1ANT
May 7, 2020 at 11:29 pm
Before CV19 I supported law enforcement.
I hope you still support law enforcement. The people we’re seeing happily pulling on their jackboots are still not most cops, nor most law enforcement agencies. Judge them as individuals, not as a mass.
commodude
May 8, 2020 at 3:41 am
The way it was handled screams Drama Queen
It turns out the worse drama queen was the SecNav (acting). His words and actions related to the matter were way out of line. Regardless of Capt Crozier violating OPSEC or the chain of command, at least part of the reaction to it was wrong, and taints any actual required discipline of the man.
Rose, I think another point to be made is that Capt. Crozier’s actions are paying benefits to the remaining ship CO’s as be now see a difference in response aboard the USS Kidd. https://blog.usni.org/posts/2020/05/07/covid-19-and-the-commanders-right-and-obligation-to-unit-self-defense
The problem with pioneers is that they are usually the ones to take the arrows. That seems to be the case here, though as you mention, we really don’t (and probably won’t) know all the facts. To me the real travesty lies with NAVMED. Over the past several decades there have been lots of epidemiology studies on influenza outbreaks aboard Navy vessels. While this virus is not influenza, transmission is similar enough that lessons learned should have been implemented as procedures. SHIPALTs should have been made to recirculating ventilation systems based on those studies. Ventilation sterilization is not new tech and additional electrical load is minimal.
When the left finally gets to shred the 2nd Amendment and sends the cops to seize your guns, you would be dangerously naive to think that the cops won’t do just that.
As Bryant said to Deckard in Blade Runner….”Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. If you’re not cop, you’re little people!
Who votes for the Police, again?
Right: Nobody.
We vote for Representatives, mostly. Of all of the branches of government, your state’s lower-house is supposed to be the most responsive because they are the ones that are closest to the people, and have elections every two years. They are never more than 1.9 years from having to “answer for their actions,” and typically much less than that.
This being 2020, most legislators are up for re-election in just a few months.
Yet we’re talking about the Police? Why? They do what they’re told. They are, by definition, “The Enforcer.” It’s actually called Law Enforcement, or hadn’t you noticed?
If you want to punish someone for this tyranny, take it out on your state reps and – if they are running – your state senators. They are, for the most part, the real cowards here. They’ve said next to nothing. They have all of the spine of a snail, and half the urgency.
In state after state they stood there, afraid to rock the boat and “lose their position at the trough,” while governors “declared endless emergency.”
The police are thugs. They are paid to be thugs. They are The Enforcer, literally by definition. If you want to go to war with them, have fun – there is an endless supply of uneducated people who are more than happy to strap on a gun and a stick for a good-paying job. You take out the smart and reasonable ones, and beware of the ones that replace them.
They report into mayors and other elected officials. That’s the real enemy here. These are the real cowards and tyrants.
Stomp them at the ballot. Sue them, if you have standing and have been harmed. Show no mercy to tyrants… legally.
“For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know.”-saying from the Vietnam War
eltee–
That would be–
Blade Runner
“Little People”
https://youtu.be/9lru1Qxc1l8
0:06
Graywolf:
If and when that moment comes it will be what the front line police officers and the military in the field do related to their orders and their understanding of the Constitution and the oaths that they took.
I think initially they will tend to do what they are ordered to do, but in time they will realize the error of their ways.
And you can see some of this being expressed in the refusal of Sheriffs who are elected officials who refuse to enforce orders by mayors and governors that they deem unlawful. And in time these Sheriffs or responsible mayors and governors will be focal points of sanity and Constitutional understanding and Freedom.
Our greatest aspiration as Americans is that the people will in time execute their part and their fiduciary responsibilities and rid our governments around the country and in Washington of these essentially power Hungary exclusively Democrat now Leftist operatives rendering these extreme measures by the people of America unnecessary.
Be upset with the politicians who tell them what to do.
Embrace the power of “and”.
Regarding the Idaho arrest, I think I heard that what initially occurred was the mother was just confronted by the police officers. She then requested (demanded?) to be arrested so they did what she wanted. She later stated that she regretted not following the orders limiting activities. I think this was in response to what occurred after the arrest when the arresting officer was harnessed by some of the public. Also, I have heard that the stay at home order is not enforced in Idaho. A week ago a restaurant opened and I did not hear of any issues.
At some point in the recent past the police morphed from peace officers into law enforcement officers. They carriy out their orders, they take their pay and pensions. Don’t anyone mess with the later.
We hanged people at Nuremberg for “only following orders.”
Democrats did this to us! Never forget, democrats did this to us!
In normal times I’m a big supporter of police. In this case I say “F that cop and every one like him” If he is too stupid to understand that he has no obligation to follow unlawful orders, and yes this is an unlawful order, he needs to learn to code.
In my town the police chief purged the “20 somethings” from the ranks, the young cops. Minor infractions were getting the full write up & fines. They were over-enforcing and the chief was getting grief from town officials over it. That won’t stand in a very small town. This is where the problem is and I would hazard that any who joined a police force from 2009 on are in this demographic. They are the problem.
David M. Cook: This this essay: They’re coming for you next.
Kevin: Be careful. I do not permit obscenities on Behind the Black. You are very very close here to the line of getting suspended for a week.
Adults express thoughts. Children spout emotions. I want my readership to be the former.
David M. Cook
May 8, 2020 at 8:07 am
Democrats did this to us! Never forget, democrats did this to us!
No. VOTERS did this to us. Allowing the electorate to be deceived and dumbed down and made morally decrepit did this. Voters can throw these people out – but they don’t. And that’s not just Democrats; plenty of Republicans are not living up to what the Constitution and the Declaration expect of them, and their constituents won’t vote them out.
If you want police to be good citizens, then you need to educate the electorate on their true rights and responsibilities, not just so they can resist, but so they can elect good representatives and hire good citizens for positions of delegated authority/responsibility.
You’re over-aggregating the situation. In the time before the information revolution really got rolling, that was completely understandable. Today, we should already have a list of all police organizations and be able to identify the problem children and seek their reform.
We just don’t do it.
“Democrats did this to us! Never forget, democrats did this to us!”
Mr Cook, can you tell me what party the Governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine, is? Because he delayed the Ohio primary from 17 March to 29 April on his own responsibility, after a trial court judge told him judges didn’t have the authority. The result is striking:
2012 approximate total primary vote = 1,970,000 votes
2020 approximate total primary vote = 1,542,000 votes
Smaller vote out of a larger population. Disturbing, isn’t it?
What party is Mike Dewine, again?
Title 18 Section 242
Gregory Koster: No one denies that many Republicans, like DeWine, have willingly participated in this lock down madness. (See for example this post by me about my own Republican governor Doug Ducey.) However, on any grey scale there always remains the black and white at the extremes.
In this tragedy, the Democrats dominate the thuggish extreme. The worst political abuses of the lock downs have been done by Democrats. The most stringent lock downs have been imposed by Democrats. Democrats have consistently extended the lock downs endlessly, and seem eager to make such restrictions the new normal.
If you want to ignore this reality, go ahead. The Democrats will thank you.
The Democrats didn’t do this to us. The Republicans didn’t do this to us. We the people did this to us.
Every time someone says “their ought to be a law about…” that doesn’t involve actual criminal enterprise or physical harm to someone, we enable this type of tyrannical action by the government.
Seatbelt laws, airbag laws, “texting while driving ” laws (which were already on the books in the form of distracted driving laws) all encroached into personal liberty, but it’s fine, “It’s for the children”.
We did this to us, and now we’re reaping what we’ve sown.
commodude: You are correct. We get the government we deserve, and sadly our voting record for the past sixty years makes us deserve the garbage we have.
At the same time, for the voters to make any correction they need to figure out who the worst players are in the political field. Right now, the worst are routinely on the Democratic side, though there is plenty of blame to go around.
Which of course is why we got Trump. He was an outsider, and thus free to act outside of the typical political deal-making we have been forced to endure from both parties in Washington.
Commodude:
“Captain Crozier violated OPSEC and the chain of command.
You DON’T wave a red flag to the world saying that a CVBG is out of business. There ARE ways within the chain to deal with those situations that don’t involve breaching OPSEC. (operational security)
The way it was handled screams Drama Queen, and that’s someone who shouldn’t be in charge of a massive piece of the United States defense apparatus.”
Ah yes, the sacred OPSEC again, a piece of jargon used to shut down discussion and duck the question. “Chain of command” is a close second. For your benefit, I’ll repeat the question:
Mr. Zimmerman wrote:
In the military we are trained to ask, ‘What’s a lawful order?’ You’ve got to check your nutsack when you’re given an order and you’ve got to say, ‘Is this a lawful order or is this a [obscenity] order?’ And when something’s a [obscenity] order and it doesn’t pass the sniff test, that’s when you say, ‘Sergeant,’ that’s when you say, ‘Colonel,’ that’s when you say ‘General,’ that’s when you say, ‘Governor, I’m not doing that.’
My question was Did Crozier face an order that didn’t pass the sniff test? You didn’t answer directly, but I think it’s reasonable to infer that you don’t believe Crozier did face such an order. We also know that least one ROOSEVELT sailor died. Crozier foresaw this, and decided to act as he did. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you’d say Crozier wasn’t justified. OK: how many sailors have to die before Crozier can send his email. More broadly:
What principle justifies defying failed Navy Leadership?
Navy Leadership failed the ROOSEVELT. There were no preparations in place to combat a sudden outbreak of a potentially deadly disease (I devoutly hope this is changing.)
This brings me to a peculiarly obnoxious attack: that Crozier is a Drama Queen. Dispose of that fast: Crozier’s letter destroyed his chance for flag rank. I’ve seen attacks on Crozier, saying he sent the letter to jump start his future career in the Democratic Party. Time will tell. But I don’t believe it.
Navy Leadership’s dramatic abilities? Let’s see:
1. Crozier was not fired by his immediate boss, but by the Navy Secretary. That’s a huge skipping of the sacred chain f command. Drama: Check.
2. Navy Secretary immediately flies to the ROOSEVELT gives intemperate speech to the crew: you are fine, but your Cap is a dud. Drama Queen: Check.
3. Big uproar from speech, Navy Secretary quits before he’s canned. Drama Queen: Check.
4. Navy Leadership investigates and is considering reinstating Crozier. More Drama: Check.
If Crozier is a Drama Queen, he’s in good company
Gregory,
I trained as a soldier in the cold war. OPSEC has to be maintained. NO ONE should know the fighting condition of the weapons of the US military. OPSEC has to be tight, but one CAN challenge the chain of command without broadcasting the status of a weapons system to the world.
A current fetish in the business world is the book “It’s Your Ship”. I read it, and came away unimpressed. I’ve never been that impressed by Navy leadership, but the book solidified that disdain. Everything in the book which is a revolutionary method of leadership to the aristocrats in the Navy is the bread and butter of NCO leadership in the Army.
There are always ways to observe OPSEC and raise hell about an issue. The current military’s lack of concern about OPSEC is going to bite us in the tail at some point. OPSEC isn’t to brush something under the rug. Revealing the status of a CVBG to the press is a massive OPSEC violation. If the good Captain wanted to raise the issue within the chain, even to the point of jumping rungs in the chain, I’m sure he could have accomplished it. He wanted notoriety, and the way he left the ship proves it. Fairly certain that the commander of a CVN can raise NCA (National Command Authority) without writing a 4 page memo that gets conveniently “leaked” to the press.
Mr. Zimmerman:
“In this tragedy, the Democrats dominate the thuggish extreme. The worst political abuses of the lock downs have been done by Democrats. The most stringent lock downs have been imposed by Democrats. Democrats have consistently extended the lock downs endlessly, and seem eager to make such restrictions the new normal.”
Conceded. But it does no good to bawl:
“Democrats did this to us! Never forget, democrats did this to us!”
as Mr. Cook did. That’s just an excuse to stop thinking. It’s what the GOP did for years—thereby handing Donald Trump his chance. Mike Dewine is proof that authoritarianism comes in many different guises I don’t come to your site for tribal thinking.
I would be interested in what you mean by Fascist” either in a new post, or link to older one.
Keep your flag flying.
I would
Commo:
Well and concisely said, excellent post.
The policeman we have are a direct result of hiring ALL of them by civil service exam. Policeman should be hired like everyone else, the best qualified get the job. Not someone who is able to get 100 score on a written civil service examination any moron could pass. Proof of this is in NY where the the majority of white candidates get 100 on the written exam.
Bill53, I’d invite you to back up that utterly sophomoric, racist claim.
Gregory Koster: How Mussolini defined “fascism” is irrelevant. Fascism is generally defined as the arbitrary use of power by government against the citizenry. A fascist government, unlike a communist one, does not wish to own everything. It simple demands the right to dictate terms to everyone and let private enterprise take the risks and failures.
Kind of describes the lock downs now, doesn’t it?
bill53 wrote, ” in NY where the the majority of white candidates get 100 on the written exam.”
I agree with commodude. You need to back this statement up with some proof. Otherwise, it is simply the statement of a bigot who likes to inject race into every conversation.
Commodude: Chief Justice Hughes once wrote, “The power to wage war is the power to wage war successfully,” i.e. “Things can be done in wartime that wouldn’t be allowed in peacetime.” So when you write:
“OPSEC has to be maintained.”
I’ll buy it in wartime.
The United States is not at war. Call me naive, but I think that adopting wartime practice in peacetime is hideously bad, a big strike at freedom and liberty. If OPSEC had its way, the American taxpayer would never have learned about Navy Leadership’s failure to prepare for disease outbreaks aboard ship.
” If the good Captain wanted to raise the issue within the chain, even to the point of jumping rungs in the chain, I’m sure he could have accomplished it. ”
Crozier did not agree with you, and he was the man on the spot. Granted, this may prove that Crozier’s judgment is faulty. But it’s at least as likely he was blocked by Navy Leadership. Wuhan flu is indifferent to OPSEC or chains of command. To fight it requires action now. Crozier took action. We don’t know what action Navy Leadership took—and aren’t likely to if “OPSEC” has its way.
” He wanted notoriety, and the way he left the ship proves it. ”
I deny that:
Has he appeared on the network shows, telling his story? No.
Are his interviews being published in the press? No.
Has his book deal been announced? No.
Has he been adopted as a political candidate? No.
Has his career been damaged by this imbroglio? That’s the way to bet.
Is there ANY evidence that he organized the crew demonstration when he left the ship? I’ve seen none.
Gregory,
He cannot appear on networks to tell his story, he’s a uniformed officer of the United States’ Navy, and is subject to the UCMJ. He is not authorized to speak to the press.
As to wartime, have you forgotten the war(s) in the middle east, which the TR can be deployed to support? A CVBG is a weapon of incredible power. They are constantly in use in wars that are in and out of the news. Broadcasting weakness can and has caused wars.
Capt. Crozier was one of 10 commanders of a US Navy carrier. He needs to jump the chain, he can do so with relative impunity. What he CANNOT do is “leak” a memo to the press.
Gregory Koster:
Your naïve.
Mr. Zimmerman: Fascism is generally defined as the arbitrary use of power by government against the citizenry.
A reasonable definition, now you just have to prove that Covid-19 is a nothing burger or that lock-downs are ineffective at dramatically reducing it’s incidence.
Originally I was willing to accept that entirely voluntary measures might be adequate, but I now think the evidence is in that government force was needed, at least to achieve as rapid a drop in cases as has been observed, in many countries. While the majority of people will adhere to reasonable voluntary measures, there’s always the minority that have no regard to the effects their actions have on others. Though evidently neither voluntary or involuntary actions work in the US as a measure for significantly curbing the spread of Covid-19.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-covid-cases-per-million?tab=chart&year=2020-04-25&time=2020-03-02..&country=AUS+ITA+CZE+DNK+NZL+NOR+SWE
I wonder if your position would be the same if the virus had a 10% fatality rate, but if some identifiable group, lets say blood group A, were all asymptomatic carriers. In your opinion would the state be justified in using lock-downs to restrict the spread? I’ve no doubt there would be thousands of blood group A people in the US that would quite happily use their God Given freedoms and spread the disease at no risk to themselves.
“but I now think the evidence is in that government force was needed, ”
Andrew W: Your choice of words reveals your black or white, on or off type position on the subject of individual freedoms and anyone’s Rights. Your use of the word “Force” is very telling. “Bill of Rights? I never even considered it”, said the governor of New Jersey. You would make a very poor American, one hell of a Leftist Democrat though.
Its force for you and not communication or finesse or respect for anyone, just force. And that is where you just will never get it. Very telling indeed.
Chilling.
I assume you object to laws prohibiting driving while intoxicated.
Chilling.
Your choice of words reveals your black or white, on or off type position on the subject of individual freedoms and anyone’s Rights.
Nothing black or white about it.
“When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?
JMK.
Self righteous people like you scare the hell out of me when they communicate the manner by which they would “rule” if they were to obtain power. You think your moralism is leadership, and it is without doubt NOT.
I have a friend like you, good person, hard worker, he asked me once if I thought he should look into getting a firearm. Without hesitation I said absolutely not.
Why? Because he is a self righteous moralist “Liberal Democrat”, also does not know the meaning of “You have the Right to remain silent” two peas in a pod. Good person but a NAZI in training, for everyones good of course.
No thank you.
What is the manner in which I’d “rule” if I were to obtain power? And on what basis do you judge me more self-righteous than yourself (or Mr. Zimmerman)? Typically someone who’s self-righteous ignores the evidence, clinging to their already reached conclusions even when the evidence goes against them, if anything that’s you not me.
Oh, and if I were American I’d most likely vote Libertarian, rather than endorse the current left-right lunacy you have there.
“FORCE”
I know, you just don’t get it.
I found this interesting, it covers the range of perspectives as I see them.
Libertarians debate: How to respond to coronavirus pandemic?
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/libertarians-debate-respond-coronavirus-pandemic-70099005
“Preventing the spread of infectious disease is within the legitimate functions of the minimal state, which most libertarians accept,” says Michael Huemer, a professor of philosophy at the University of Colorado, in Boulder.
“The minimal state’s functions include protecting people from physical threats posed by other people,” Huemer says. “That includes not only behavior that definitely causes physical harm, but also behavior that creates an unreasonable risk of harm to others. Obviously, what is an unreasonable risk is a matter of judgment.”
This is you Andrew W: https://reason.com/2020/05/07/texas-governor-greg-abbott-will-not-jail-people-shelley-luther-for-violating-coronavirus-social-distancing/
Bask in your flavor of “Justice”.
Leaves a bad taste in the mouth though, so no thank you.
Cotour, the threat of the use of physical force, like sending someone to prison for a crime like DUI, is force. Governments legitimately use the threat of force to impose power over citizens that would do things deemed illegal and harmful to other people within the state. The alternative to that situation is Anarchism. In democratic countries governments are controlled, their power restrained, by the voters.
This is you Andrew W
No, if the state is going to impose measures on people that force them into desperate situations the state is responsibly for that desperate situation and morally obligated to compensate for the hardship caused.
You only see the absolute solution, you never even consider any middle ground where people are responsible for their own actions.
Libertarian? You certainly are NOT, a self delusion of the first order. You are exactly the opposite, and you have not got a clue.
I made the point about personal responsibility days ago, with the position you and Mr. Zimmerman holds people are not responsible for their actions, should someone, even knowingly and without making efforts to prevent, pass on the disease with the result that the person they infect dies. A strictly libertarian position would be that the person passing on the disease is culpable for homicide.
It’s you that hasn’t been doing much thinking.
Anyway, I don’t claim to be libertarian, as I see pragmatic problems with that ideology (aren’t there with all ideologies?) so label myself Classical Liberal.
From Andrew_W in 2016:
You have no idea what the term Libertarian means, you have it all bass akwards.
You go to “homicide”, and so from that position you can justify ANY action by government. “If it saves just one life”, sound familiar? A perversion of morality by the Left.
No sir, you have not one clue as to what a Libertarian is, a Libertarian would not touch anything that you propose. Your working the wrong end of the equation and calling it all good. And it is not.
Ask Wayne what he thinks of your thought process, he identifies as a Libertarian of sorts. Gird your loins.
Mr. Zimmerman, so?
There’s no contradiction there, if you see one it’s only in your mind.
“If it saves just one life”
If you think you can attribute that quote to me you’re dreaming.
“Classical Liberal”? Hell no, you are not that either.
You are a classical self righteous run of the mill miss educated Liberal / aspiring Leftist / Fascist dictator.
Like I said, people like you scare the hell out of me. You could justify ANYTHING to support your dogmatic “Righteous” and “Politically correct” position and solutions for societies ills.
No, no thank you.
And funny enough my friend who is a great person, like I am certain you are also , his name is also Andrew.
Cotour–
no time to address much tonight–
I would put forth the proposition–this again vividly illustrates the differences a lot of us have with Andrew_W, over definitions of Political Terms.
Personally, I’m generally a small “l” libertarian, Conservative, republican, and generally in that order.
–I was once a capital “L” Libertarian, (primarily to help insure they would get ballot-access– still often vote for Libertarians in obscure positions) but as I have opined in the past–the Libertarian movement is cobbled together with often disparate groups, who can’t even agree on what fundamental underlying principle’s they operate.
Andew_W:
referencing:
“A strictly libertarian position would be that the person passing on the disease is culpable for homicide.”
Not sure where or how you extracted that thought, but I would dispute it.
“… there are some lies that lodge so deep in the hopes of man that they can never be killed no matter how many are executed to make the lie true.”
— Gerard Van Der Leun
“The nation’s police are supposed to be there to serve and to protect, to defend our laws and the Constitution, and to protect the ordinary innocent citizens ” Robert Zimmerman
While Mr. Van Der Leun was writing about communism, it is also true of “serve and protect” that we so often see on police department mottos. When will this myth die? The Supremes have ruled several times that the police are not, repeat NOT required to risk their lives to protect defenseless citizens. Often, one or another does against better judgement. Get over it, Mr. Zimmerman.
wayne commented on Anew_W’s thought that “the person passing on the disease is culpable for homicide” with:
“Not sure where or how you extracted that thought, but I would dispute it.”
My dispute with that thought is that 1) it assumes that Wuhan flu is far more fatal than it is, Not only do most people infected never know that they were infected, but those who show symptoms are still at low risk of dying, unless they have certain existing morbidities.
2) Since regular flus are just as fatal, then anyone passing on any flu would likewise be culpable for homicide. Thinking that Wuhan flu means a death sentence is de Blasio thinking. It is why we are still in a panic over something that is no worse than any regular flu, and since we know who is the most vulnerable, it should have been easy to protect them while herd immunity was achieved.
3) Governor Cuomo sent many ailing patients into New York nursing homes as a conscious policy, passing on the disease, so he would be especially culpable, as would anyone actually involved in the delivery of those ailing patients.
4) The best way to reduce deaths is to spread the disease throughout the less vulnerable population, providing them with immunity, and giving the disease fewer ways to infect the most vulnerable. Passing on the disease to those who are not vulnerable is actually the best and fastest way to save lives, and it should have been encouraged rather than discouraged through shutdown, lockdown, and social distancing.
Our reaction to the disease turned out to be the exact opposite to what should have been done. We should have protected the vulnerable, rather that send the sick to them, and we should have passed it on to the non-vulnerable rather then lock them in their houses and away from their jobs.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/06/majority-of-new-coronavirus-cases-in-new-york-are-from-people-staying-at-home-not-traveling-or-working/#423302d31655
The majority of the hospitalizations came from people who were in lockdown, not among those who were out and about. Lockdown and shutdown were futile and counterproductive, as it prevented the non-vulnerable from becoming immune so that it would not spread to the vulnerable — who could not be sufficiently protected for long at home.
The purpose of the shutdown lockdown was to slow the spread just enough to prevent the hospitals from being overwhelmed. Shutdown and lockdown were known, at that time, to be unable to stop spread of the Wuhan flu, or any other flu, cold, or other disease. Unfortunately, the effect that lockdown could accomplish was lost on the stupid, and they started seeing lockdown as a way to stop the disease, when it can only slow the spread.
5) Thus, there is no way anyone can reasonably be expected to avoid spreading the disease, as he is likely to eventually contract it and be contagious for a time before symptoms appear. That means that most people would be considered culpable, even though unintentionally.
Our reaction to this flu has turned it from a fairly normal outbreak of flu into a terrible pandemic, wreaking fear where no fear is necessary and preventing the protection of the most vulnerable, where fear is due.
wayne commented on Anew_W’s thought that “the person passing on the disease is culpable for homicide”
It’s annoying when people cut a quote and change the context: “A strictly libertarian position would be that the person passing on the disease is culpable for homicide.” Personal responsibility is a big part of libertarian principles, you are free to do what you will with your own life but not free to wreak your neighbors freedoms or their life.
I’m sure most would understand that with a disease like AIDS for someone infected to risk infecting another without advising them of the risk is a crime in most countries, a resulting death would I think be justifiably be considered homicide.
Obviously for practical reasons that is not the way covid-19 infections are dealt with, so I have not and would not suggest that implementation the same legal solution to AIDS is practical for Covid. But the principle stands as I quoted above:
“The [Libertarian view of a] minimal state’s functions include protecting people from physical threats posed by other people,” Huemer says. “That includes not only behavior that definitely causes physical harm, but also behavior that creates an unreasonable risk of harm to others. Obviously, what is an unreasonable risk is a matter of judgment.”
Edward goes on to claim: Since regular flus are just as fatal, which isn’t true.
And:
4) The best way to reduce deaths is to spread the disease throughout the less vulnerable population, providing them with immunity, and giving the disease fewer ways to infect the most vulnerable. Passing on the disease to those who are not vulnerable is actually the best and fastest way to save lives, and it should have been encouraged rather than discouraged through shutdown, lockdown, and social distancing.
Which is an unsubstantiated hypothesis that depends on effective isolation of the “most vulnerable” while the disease spreads, certainly there would be many “less vulnerable” that still died and likely leakage of the disease into that “most vulnerable” population when the practicalities of the real world get in the way of a nice little hypothesis.
Different countries are in very different positions with regard to their actual situation, some countries have kept the virus out (Samoa and 33 other countries and territories), for other countries elimination of the virus has been achieved or will be the best option (likely China, Australia, New Zealand, several Scandinavian and smaller European countries judging by declining case numbers), for yet others just restricting it’s rate of transmission to very low levels and keeping it there might be best (most of Europe), and for others there’s little hope of any sort of containment (less developed countries, Sweden and the US), where likely there will be thousands of deaths/million people.
Hopefully a vaccine or similar will be developed in the next year or so and everyone will be back in the same boat.
There is no proof, not a single way to prove, that the lock down cased a slowdown in the rate of infection or if it even saved lives at all.
Only supposition and assumptions.
Add in good hopes and nice feelings also.
Just watched an article on TV about a nursing home. One asymptomatic employee infected 60% of the staff and and 70+ percent of the residents.
Neither can be proven but thats what the professional nurses are believing. They could have all got it from their local gas stations.
caused