Director of Neil Armstrong movie responds to flag critics


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The director of the movie about Neil Armstrong, First Man, has issued a statement about criticism the movie is getting for not showing a scene of Armstrong and Aldrin planting the American flag on the Moon.

Below is Damien Chazelle’s statement in its entirety:

In “First Man” I show the American flag standing on the lunar surface, but the flag being physically planted into the surface is one of several moments of the Apollo 11 lunar EVA that I chose not to focus upon. To address the question of whether this was a political statement, the answer is no. My goal with this movie was to share with audiences the unseen, unknown aspects of America’s mission to the moon — particularly Neil Armstrong’s personal saga and what he may have been thinking and feeling during those famous few hours.

I wanted the primary focus in that scene to be on Neil’s solitary moments on the moon — his point of view as he first exited the LEM, his time spent at Little West Crater, the memories that may have crossed his mind during his lunar EVA. This was a feat beyond imagination; it was truly a giant leap for mankind. This film is about one of the most extraordinary accomplishments not only in American history, but in human history. My hope is that by digging under the surface and humanizing the icon, we can better understand just how difficult, audacious and heroic this moment really was. [emphasis mine]

That he did show the American flag on the Moon is encouraging to me, and makes me think that the criticisms about this issue being leveled at the film, including mine, are possibly unfair.

At the same time, I have witnessed too often the desire of Hollywood to denigrate the United States, so I remain suspicious. Getting eyes on the film to get another perspective would I think be very helpful. I might myself have to view it to give my own perspective.

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115 comments

  • Cotour

    “one of the most extraordinary accomplishments not only in American history, but in human history. ”

    Accomplished by Americans.

    Now everyone is going to have to see it! Brilliant marketing ploy executed by a diabolical Canadian! (They all seem so nice)

    (Deep down you know they are going to screw with it all)

  • Edward

    I hope that Mr. Zimmerman watches this movie for us and tells us if this movie sweeps under the carpet, minimizes the fact the the United States of America made it happen, the first landing and walk on the Moon.

    I’ll take my cue from Mr. Zimmerman as to whether this movie is worthy of our hard earned dollars.

    As for what the writer and directors of this film imagine what went through the heads of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, I’d guess that both men were honored and proud to have been selected by the United States of America to be the first to walk on the Moon.

  • Edward: The truth is that my viewing of this movie will likely have to wait until it is available on DVD. I almost never go to movie theaters these days, as the last few times I did so I found the experience quite unpleasant, and expensive as well.

    When I do see it, however, I will definitely comment on it.

  • Localfluff

    This whole kneeling before the flag thing, is it about submission, subduance, slavery, the meaning of the word “islam”? Real tyrants would be happy to see their subjects kneel under their symbol of power.

    “what he may have been thinking and feeling during those famous few hours”
    That question is very easy to answer! “-If I’m crazy, then everything is crazy. (I bet that in fifty years 14% of Americans won’t believe that I did this.)”

  • Cotour

    “I hope that Mr. Zimmerman watches this movie for us and tells us if this movie sweeps under the carpet, minimizes the fact the the United States of America made it happen, the first landing and walk on the Moon.”

    Really?

  • Noah Peal

    The director and producers should realize there is a segment of the American population very sensitive about our flag. The fact that they live within a liberal bubble made them blind to the controversy that was about to erupt. They created it, whether it was inadvertent or not. Did they feel immune to the backlash the NFL has been experiencing?

  • Andrew_W

    I had a look at the comments at the site Mr. Zimmerman links to above, the demented right is in full swing there, minds made up, welded to their charging elephants.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9KP8uiGZTs
    [2:02]

  • pzatchok

    Armstrong was a professional.
    I can bet that the only thing he was thinking about the whole time he was in his suit was the mission.
    Maybe after he got back into the lander and had a few minutes of time he might have thought about something profound.
    But I doubt it. More than likely all that was on his mind was the mission and family.

    I have never read anything on him or the mission specifically but I was led to believe he was rather religious and thought out his statements beforehand. Even wrote them down.

    Having a movie about what was going on in his mind during the mission sounds about as exciting as reading the mission manuals.

  • F16 Guy

    I heard that none of the flight suits or pressure suits show American flags on them. Cannot confirm as I have not seen the movie yet.

    Also heard that the Saturn 5 camera showing the liftoff does not display “USA” on its side, as they all did.

    I remain skeptical about this movie.

  • wayne

    Andrew_W;
    well, no one here is on the demented right, welded to their charging elephant’s.
    You however, relish playing the troublemaker!
    :)
    (come on, admit it… you love it.)

  • Andrew_W

    F16 Guy, in the trailer when they’re walking to board they have flags on their suits, in another shot the Saturn V is seen in flight, “United States” is easily seen, the US flag on the Saturn V in flight isn’t clear in the brief shot of it, but that’s the case in the original footage, there’s ice or condensate flowing down over the outside of the rocket.

  • Andrew_W

    Troublemaker? I call it as I see it, I don’t usually bother commenting though when I’m in agreement with the author of an article.
    Incidentally, have you read Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind yet? Have you followed his concerns over how hyper-partisan the US has become recently?

    I said above that Kiwi’s wouldn’t care about flag waving, that’s true, the same I think could be said of most other people in Western countries, for most it’s substance over symbolism. In America both sides are just itching for excuses to hate the other side, and when you look hard enough for a justification to hate you’re going to find it. This attack on the movie I see as such, and that’s nothing short of tragic, politicizing a film about Armstrong that’s been seen several times by and strongly endorsed by his family (see Mr. Zimmerman’s link), a film that hasn’t even been seen by the politicizing critics.

  • wayne

    Andrew_W:
    Unfortunately, I have little time these days for reading. I would however, completely agree the totalitarian left has become oppressively hyper-partisan in the United States.

    Alex Jones crashes the Young Turks
    https://youtu.be/ATaQ7n1iSy8
    3:35

  • Cotour

    ” Have you followed his concerns over how hyper-partisan the US has become recently?”

    Politics is a process it is not about stasis, America is going through a process. To expect some level of stability is to expect something like Brussels / the EU or even New Zealand. No thank you. But I must say that New Zealand would be preferable to Brussels and the EU.

    The perceived “safety” and “stasis” and “sameness” and little process may sound civilized and preferable but that is not America.

  • pzatchok

    Did they add in the prayers they read on the Moon?

    As for national pride you need something to be proud of first.

    But in order to remove national pride you first have to remove the things your nation did that made you proud. Either remove that thing from the history of the the nation or separate the nation from that thing.
    You can not remove the pride from this action by ‘humanizing’ it. Being human is all about pride.
    Ask those non Americans who watched this live. Even they felt the American pride and joyed in it, they even wanted to be part of it by moving to the USA.

    By removing national pride what do you plan on replacing it with? Worlds pride? What has the world do that so great? Nothing. even less than nations. the world did not discover anything the world did not finance anything.

    If you can not bring the world up to Americas greatness and pride then bring America down to the worlds mediocrity. That easier.

  • Edward

    “If you can not bring the world up to Americas greatness and pride then bring America down to the worlds mediocrity. That easier.”

    Socialism likes easy things – like destroying what others have built.

  • Jason Hillyer

    That seemed like a really good response… I’ve been waiting to see this movie ever since I saw the trailer, and now I am anticipating it all the more!!

  • wayne

    I should have put this in the Genesis Audio Book thread. Very well done BBC coverage of Apollo 8.
    (Unfortunately, huge amounts of BBC space coverage [and Dr. WHO episodes] from the 1960’s was wiped clean and the video tape re-used. There’s not a lot of this left.)

    Apollo 8 –
    BBC Coverage 1968 (1 of 3)
    James Burke, with Patrick Moore and Sir Bernard Lovell
    https://youtu.be/bxDNyJPwcxE
    9:18

  • wayne

    “Benedict Cumberbatch reads William Safire’s Moon landing (tragedy) announcement”
    https://youtu.be/pfVjNBff3xY
    (1:42)

    “In 1969, the world waited for Apollo 11 to land on the Moon, Presidential speechwriter William Safire imagined the worst case scenario – that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin would be stranded up there. He wrote this to President Nixon’s Chief of Staff, to be read by the president if his fears came true.”

  • Edward

    Here’s a link to a picture of Neil Armstrong after returning to the Lunar Module from his first walk on the Moon.

    Ryan Gossling looks NOTHING like Neil Armstrong.

    Ryan Gossling looks like he’s thinking about what he’s having for Lunch.

  • Edward

    Ooops. Please delete my above post where I left out the link to the picture.

    Here is a link to a picture of Neil Armstrong after returning to the Lunar Module from his first walk on the Moon.

    http://www.wvxu.org/post/looking-first-man#stream/0

    BTW, Ryan Gossling looks NOTHING like Neil Armstrong.

    Ryan Gossling looks like he’s thinking about what he’s having for Lunch.

  • Michael

    I imagine that if this speech had to have been read that signs and symbols of the US would have been quite prominent.

  • wayne

    This is good. split screen White House/ Moon video feed. (hmm, the America Flag is mysteriously framed right in the middle of the shot….)

    Apollo 11 Astronauts Talk With Richard Nixon From the Surface of the Moon
    AT&T Tech Channel
    https://youtu.be/ieGKIh3koAI
    3:25

    “the call went from the Oval Office in Washington D.C. to Houston, where it was routed into space via Mission Control, through the capsule communicator, or CapCom, astronaut Bruce McCandless II.”

  • Kirk

    F16 Guy> I heard that none of the flight suits or pressure suits show American flags on them. Cannot confirm as I have not seen the movie yet.

    In both trailers released so far, Armstrong and Scott clearly have large, prominent American flags on the left arms of of their suits, matching real life. This can be seen as they are walking toward the Gemini 8 capsule and as they are being strapped in.

  • Lee S

    As an Englishman living in Sweden, I am scratching my head about all the supposed controversy…..
    No one who will watch this movie will not know which nation landed on the moon first….. Why are you guys so insecure that if the movie maker ( for whatever reason ) omits the flag planting moment, you go crazy….
    It’s a movie… From what I can make out, it’s in no way unpatriotic…. If it’s a good movie or not remains to be seen… But seriously guys….
    Chill out!

  • Robert Pratt

    Lee, we are sensitive because our nation’s and culture’s own motion picture industry has devolved into a business seemingly dedicated to the destruction of our traditions and values, including those which preserve the very liberties that allow for such freedom of expression. We have come to expect denigration of our accomplishments by Hollywood.

  • Robert Pratt: There is a fascinating pattern in this thread that I have begun to notice. Almost all the people telling us Americans we should not be so sensitive happen to be either people from other countries who are not Americans, or are Americans who have decided to leave the U.S. to adopt as their home another country.

    It is almost as if these outsiders like the idea of devaluing the exceptional ideas that made a small collection of brand new colonies become the world’s most prosperous nation, able to land humans on the Moon, and do it in less than two centuries.

    Just a thought. The pattern is without doubt most intriguing.

  • Edward

    Lee S. said: “As an Englishman living in Sweden”

    So you’ve done your own Brexit.

    What compelled you to leave England/Britain/UK?

  • pzatchok

    I watched the movie Dunkurk.
    Oddly as an American I felt pride in being, at least in part, of English decent.

    I could see where the core of Americanism came from.

    That can do attitude.

    That attitude that is being eroded from our society on purpose. For years. All starting with games that have no winners our losers.
    All because progressives don’t like competition. Someone could lose.
    If we have some nation trying to be number one all the others will either have to try also or quit. And we can not have someone labeled loser or quitter.

    If you can’t get into the race and at least try to win, just stand on the sidelines and cheer. The world needs cheerleaders also. And if you can’t even do that then go home a be quiet. The guys out there trying to win will push the world forward just fine without you.

  • Lee S

    @ Edward….
    Pretty much the same reason as every other Englishman I know living here…
    A Swedish girl! ( Now my ex wife!)
    I decided to stay due to having kids here, and the Swedish educational system and social support is second to none.
    For the record…. I’m engaged to a very sweet girl from West Virginia, a sweetheart from 2 decades ago, and plan on moving across the pond in a few years when my kids are bigger.

    @ Bob,
    It’s really not a case of devaluing anything… The moon landings stand as one of mankind’s greatest achievements, as I’m sure each and every reader of your wonderful blog would agree… And we all know which nation achieved them.
    If the film deliberately tried to hide the fact it was the USA that first put men on the moon I would understand the concern, but that does not appear to be the case.
    I would say the whole issue is a storm in a lunar lander!
    Best wishes one and all.

  • Andrew_W

    Mr. Zimmerman, my theory is that Conservative Right Americans are seeing those old reds under the beds everywhere, as Haidt would say, their elephants are already primed to head in the direction of “it’s a leftist conspiracy!” Centrist Americans not primed for those evil conspiring leftist theories won’t see the conspiracy, and neither do foreigners of all political persuasions not emotionally attached to the current US political civil war.

  • Edward

    Andrew_W, The MOST Conservative, Right-Wing people today are Islamists who control Gaza, Lebanon, Islamic Regimes of Iran and Pakistan and Afghanistan – ie. ISIS, Hamass, Hezbola, Taliban, Boko Haram, ISIS, Al Qada, Al Nusra, Muslim Brotherhood.

    But the dishonest regressive Left is blind to those reprobates because to recognize their regressive actions would undermine their lies about the US.

    Those Islamist Conservative, Right-Wing Islamist entities execute gays (push them off rooftops in Gaza and hang them from construction cranes in Iran), enforce dress codes (women covered, men with beards), until recently prohibited women from driving cars in Saudi Arabs (maybe that’s a good idea. ;-) – I’ve been involved in two fender/sheet metal collisions – both involved dumb, one disorented and one distracted by cellphone female drivers).

  • OM

    I watched the several trailers. I only counted six different times that the American flag was shown. Six! It should be seven or more.

  • Edward

    OM, Do you live in a trailer too?

  • Edward

    I watched the DVD “The Last Man on the Moon” which told the story of the moon landings and the life of the late astronaut Gene Cernan.

    It’s GREAT.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3219604/

    I’m skeptical about this “First Man” movie.

  • wayne

    Edward-
    good stuff.

    Andrew_W:
    I don’t have to imagine anti-American communists under every bed, they are quite blatant and above board, about it all. Jeez, we had a Marxist president for 8 years, but somehow I’m the one who went off the rails?

  • Andrew_W: And I would repeat to you what mkent said in a previous comment:

    Andrew, why is it you so desire to continuously argue with Americans about what why Americans do things, and then insult them when you get it wrong? This thread is hardly the first time you’ve done this.

    You’re theory above once again illustrates your complete lack of understanding of the cultural war that is going on in the United States, blatant and very well documented in many places, including this website. It also illustrates your complete unwillingness to actually pay attention to what the decent and thoughtful conservative Americans at this very site are trying to tell you.

    You might have noticed that I am reconsidering my initial comments about this film. I admit I might have jumped the gun. At the same time, my conclusions about the hatred the modern elitist culture has for America has not changed. This hate I have documented in great detail here. It is too bad that you, along with many others, refuse to recognize it.

  • wayne

    Charles Murray:
    How Today’s Elites are a Failed Product of the 60s Counterculture
    (excerpt)
    https://youtu.be/XqKvvx764Q0
    18:14

  • wayne

    Jordan B Peterson:
    12 conservative principles in 12 minutes
    https://youtu.be/_MyduTaCh18
    (12:45)

  • Andrew_W

    Edward, your house is divided with the extremes moving further and further apart, so there’s the worry that one half is becoming more like those Islamists, that should be a concern for everyone. The good news is that there have been other times when the US has been similarly divided, it usually pulls itself together again, the extremists end up discrediting themselves.

  • Steve Earle

    —–This is well worth repeating—–
    Wayne said:
    “……I don’t have to imagine anti-American communists under every bed, they are quite blatant and above board, about it all. Jeez, we had a Marxist president for 8 years, but somehow I’m the one who went off the rails?…..”

    Well said Wayne! I also agree with Mr Z’s suspicion that our non-American friends just can’t wrap their brains around what is actually happening here and what it really means for the future, not only here but for the World.

    I believe it is because in their countries there isn’t the strong opposition to the Left that exists here. They’ve become used to the socialists becoming the new “middle” and they don’t understand why the Americans on the “Extremist Right” can’t just be quiet and accept what’s best for them…

    Which illustrates why history seems to repeat itself when the siren-song of socialism takes over the mis-educated who have forgotten that history.

    Tragic that we may end up in yet another war to re-fight the same ideological battles….

  • F16 Guy

    Thanks for the corrections to my “flight suit” and “Saturn 5” comments.

    It thus appears some in the media are spreading false narratives about this movie. I look forward to Mr. Zimmerman’s observations.

  • OM

    “my theory is that Conservative Right Americans are seeing those old reds under the beds everywhere, as Haidt would say, their elephants are already primed to head in the direction of “it’s a leftist conspiracy!”

    Do you even read this site? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s right out in the open! Liberal leftist democrat fascists have taken over this country. They started on the coasts–California and New York are already gone–and now they’re moving inland to places like Minnesota. They are remaking this country to look foreign, just like them. Somebody has to stand up for freedom!

  • OM

    Edward wrote:

    “Do you live in a trailer too?”

    Only when I go hunting. I tried sleeping in a tent once and ended up all sore. Never again. Tents are for hippies.

    I don’t agree with you that women should not be allowed to drive. I am sorry that women drivers hit your car.

  • Andrew_W

    Mr. Zimmerman. People on other forums have pointed out that the left is “eating itself” that is, if you’re on the left and point out that the extremists are getting too extreme you get targeted as some sort of traitor. The same has been increasingly happening on America’s right as well, if you go to the link in your above post and look at the comments section you can find many examples of people of no obvious political persuasion taking the stand that you did, to hold off on reaching premature conclusions, being targeted and accused of being a leftist, socialist, communist etc. by the extremists on the right. Probably America will pull itself back together and return to reasoned sanity eventually – as it has in the past, it has a robust structure to its political system.

    To answer mkent’s question, I’m one of the guys pointing out, as I did on this issue, that getting all emotional and extremist over things, dog whistling in attempts to create even more division, is not a solution.

    I’ve looked back through my comments on the two posts and mkent is right, I got way to snarky in my reply to mkent and I APOLOGIZE TO MKENT. I could have and should have replied without the insults, that doesn’t change my opinion that mkent’s analogy has little merit.
    Other comments I’ve made, the one to Kirk, might have sounded snarky to Wayne, but I think it was a fair question and I was trying to make the point that if the flag planting was so important to American’s, why did so few go watch it on youtube (I’ve watched it before)? Why does it have to be depicted in the movie when, for the vast majority, it wasn’t worth watching in the past? To me this sudden concern, by the extreme “right”, about the absence of a depiction of the flag planting looks almost entirely like an excuse to manufacture a political issue where there isn’t one, to deepen the divisions in America. And I really hate that the target of this made-up political issue is a film commemorating Neil Armstrong – one of my heroes.

  • Edward

    Andrew_W, Don’t forget Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins and those proud Americans that preceded and followed them to the Moon.

  • Mitch S

    Wow, I can really tell those hot button issues by the number of comments.
    Took me a bit to catch up on these two threads!

    While I share a skepticism about the values Hollywood tries to push in it’s products, that doesn’t mean they are incapable of doing a good job at times. BTW let’s remember their #1 job is to make products that entertain people enough to get them to part with their money.
    But here the concerns about the movie are being seen in the context of the broader “culture war”.
    What is this “war”? As I see it, it’s a battle to protect our constitutional democracy by educating the current, especially the younger, generations that with all it’s flaws and inefficiencies a democratic, capitalist, republic is the best way we know to maximize freedom and prosperity for the greatest number of people.
    The faults in our system are due to the faults of human nature. The genius of a good democratic system is to use those faults to counter-balance each other (checks and balances). As Milton Freedman said ” Get the wrong people to do the right thing”.
    But people, especially young people, will be tempted by other systems.
    Fascism and it’s derivatives seems so much more efficient.
    Communism “From each according to his means, to each according to his needs” sounds so fair.
    We know how and why they fail, but it’s not so obvious to a youth sitting in a classroom led by a leftie professor.

    We, every one of us, has to be a spokesman, educator, indeed a salesman for our system of governance, for our basic morals (Who would have thought that wishing that people “not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character” would be considered a right wing “racist” mantra?).
    And to get into peoples minds and hearts we must provide a positive example.

    When I pull back from my viewpoint and look at this thread, I see Andrew W’s criticisms have some validity.
    First of all we are properly critical of the press when it bases it’s “news” and opinion on assumptions rather than facts.
    But here this movie is being condemned by people who haven’t seen it – and I’m glad Robert at the top of this thread walks back his opinion based on a trickle of additional info.
    I do think we have allowed ourselves to get hyped up by a part of the right wing press that thinks the “fair” response to left wing distortion is to engage in right wing distortion.
    To be blunt we (and I say “we” because I generally share the political views of most of the participants on this site) come across as a bunch of crotchety old guys complaining to each other.
    True, the discourse here is civil, we haven’t devolved into the shouting matches typical these days, but to reach out we have to do better.
    I can’t control what my kid, my nieces and nephews etc will be exposed to in HS and college. But I hope as they grow into adulthood they’ll realize that the cool leftie professor is really a nasty selfish facade and maybe that fuddy-duddie ‘ol Uncle Mitch who’s always happy to help and lend an ear, has a philosophy worth following.

  • Michael Dean Miller

    The American Flag was omitted to downplay the butthurt on the Left. Old Glory represents what liberals and SJWs just can’t get over… the idea that, since 1969, the Moon has been “White American Male Only”.

  • Mitch S

    This article ties into my above point:

    https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/08/22/former-democrats-are-leaving-their-party-in-droves-conservatives-should-pay-attention/?utm_source=TDS_Email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Top5?&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpFMk5HUTJaakV3T1dZNCIsInQiOiJrY2UyNWlua2lrUmFvTklKT2did2d6ZDZpUGMxeW93ZmpEaDFZRmtvT0FselM2Wk9FVENxN0Q3TmRzd3ZUNFdJRXp6b000eGY5RU9OV3hmVGdLRTMrVHQ2ZmpYeDFKaDdUK2dUWE1PcnViRXJZa1RxXC9qR29ZUWtEUVFLTjFUOTkifQ%3D%3D

    (Yikes, a heck of a link, but it works!)

    ” the idea that, since 1969, the Moon has been “White American Male Only”.
    Not sure that influenced the movie (I’m guessing the desire for foreign sales especially in places like China, may have played a role) but let’s remember we haven’t seen the movie!
    But many on the left think that way while accusing the right of being obsessed with race.

  • OM

    Michael Dean Miller wrote:
    “since 1969, the Moon has been “White American Male Only”

    Why are you bringing race into this? This is about FLAGS! First the liberal fascist democrat leftists pulled down the Confederate flag and told us that it was bad and now they are pulling down the American flag because they are against freedom!

  • Cotour

    ” To me this sudden concern, by the extreme “right”, about the absence of a depiction of the flag planting looks almost entirely like an excuse to manufacture a political issue where there isn’t one, to deepen the divisions in America. And I really hate that the target of this made-up political issue is a film commemorating Neil Armstrong – one of my heroes.”

    There is no concern on the “Extreme Right”, I am not extreme right, many here and in the country are not extreme right, we are just everyday Americans and no one has to watch the event on Youtube or anywhere some arbitrary number of times to prove their American bona fides and how much value that they attach to the accomplishment. That is a red Kangaroo.

    The movie maker made a choice about how he would interpret the event and reasonable Americans are asking that he might have included the planting of the flag as a part of his interpretation. It was the signature event of the mission. You make an artistic choice and their may be unfavorable reactions to it, its art. And art is for eternity been a symbolic tool of politics.

    But in this political environment of the day when someone makes a choice like that and their choice can be interpreted as a slight or worse a dilution of history, which is not an unreasonable assumption given Hollywood and the many movie makers within which are most definitely Liberal at the minimum and Leftist radicals at the max.

    Its not unreasonable at all to at least question the choice, not at all.

  • wayne

    Cotour-
    that, was pretty well together.
    I would concur.

  • Cotour

    Thank you Wayne.

    This is growing into a conflated mess of an argument going in all kinds of directions when its a pretty simple issue.

  • wayne

    that should have been “that, was pretty well put together.”

    Personally, I just assume most every single Hollywood movie contains at least some sort of anti-American subtext, and I’m correct a huge percentage of the time. They just can’t stop themselves, it’s pathological with them.
    And they somehow operate under the delusion that when their beloved “revolution” is accomplished, they won’t be the first one’s dragged into the street and shot in the face.

    (tangentially: An alcoholic, a criminal, and a socialist walk into a bar. The bartender says, “what are you having today Mrs. Clinton?”)

    This director Guy— he’s an elitist.

  • Andrew_W

    “But in this political environment of the day when someone makes a choice like that and their choice can be interpreted as a slight or worse a dilution of history, which is not an unreasonable assumption given Hollywood and the many movie makers within which are most definitely Liberal at the minimum and Leftist radicals at the max.”

    I take the opposite approach, one should never assign a nefarious motive to that which can be easily explained by reasonable motives, negligence or stupidity. The approach you suggest leads to unnecessary tragedies, from ended friendships to wars. I can name numerous wars, atrocities and miscarriages of justice that have resulted from your line of reasoning, and that reasoning is contrary to the basic principles that western judicial systems are based upon. Guilty until proven innocent is the logic used by tyrants.

  • Andrew_W

    People that like to use your logic are those that think it’s reasonable to lump people into convenient and easily identified group and treat members of those broad groups differently to members of society, rather than as individuals that might not actually fit with the chosen stereotype.
    In other words it’s easy to find your form of reasoning amongst the worst student SJW types.

  • wayne

    The Politics of Hollywood with Andrew Breitbart
    Hoover- Defining Idea’s
    https://youtu.be/0mTxpFIw-3g
    31:45

  • m d mill

    In 1969 the United States of America were not just the greatest nation in the world, but the greatest nation in the history of the world. The seemingly miraculous Moon landing did not transcend this fact, it was a result of this fact.

  • Chas C-Q

    @pzatchok: “. . . progressives don’t like competition. Someone could lose.” Not precisely. Progressives don’t like any activity which sifts and measures ability or merit, because someone other than themselves (or those they favor) might win.

  • Cotour

    Like I stated, the director made some artistic choices and some are questioning his interpretation.

    Lets get a possible flavor for the directors politics, I find this one paragraph to be an enlightening glimps into his thinking on the subject, there is a lot here: Damiane Chazelle is 33 years old, a Millenial:

    “These guys were not supermen. They were just ordinary men and women doing their best and sacrificing greatly in order to achieve something for all of us. And in an era right now when we face impossible tasks — like how are we going to take on climate change and save our species — I think this sugar-coating that’s been done does a disservice. There’s no hero coming to save us. We have to all step up and sacrifice the way these guys did. I think that’s inspiring.”

    http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/la-et-mn-damien-chazelle-first-man-telluride-20180902-story.html

    And if you read the entire article the director does appear to be able to truly appreciate the accomplishment and the country that made it happen. But like it or not artistic choices were made and I have to reasonably believe that while balancing both commercial and artistic content there were intentional conscious and / or sub conscious messages being transmitted that reflects the directors own personal take on the subject and the world as he sees it. It just is the way of man, if you get to spend $70 million dollars to put together a movie you make the most of telling the story and probably in sharing how you interpret the world in general.

    Sorry, Andrew W, what is is, these little messages and interpretations and personal commentary tid bit choices bleeds through, it has in this instance IMO. There is no way around it. And I am not really bad mouthing the director. I would think in a conversation eventually he himself would have to admit what is plain to see in his artistic choices as minute and subliminal to some they may be. The art reflects the artist is some way shape or form.

    And I am certain that the movie itself is a fine piece of work.

  • Michael Dean Miller: I agree with OM. There is no reason to bring race into this, unless you are leftist troll trying to make this discussion appear racist. Please stop. I do not tolerate such behavior.

  • pzatchok

    You can not ignore the slights that are easily explained away.
    Pretty soon you have the education system we have right now.

    Take a simple American history class in highschool.
    Your the teacher and its your first year. Your also a democrat.
    Well that first year you teach that President Lincoln was the first Republican elected president.
    Well that second year you just happen to leave out the simple fact. Easily explained away as you didn’t have time of forgot.
    How many things could be forgotten or added over your 30 year career?
    I had to prove to my son that Lincoln was the first Republican elected president. It was no longer even in his book.
    His teacher then told him that all the southern democrats turned republican after the civil war. This was not in his book either. And I had to correct that also.
    Out of over 400 elected Democrats in the confederacy less than 20 turned republican in the ten years after the war.
    50 years after the culture war in the US this is what we have now.

    You can keep ignoring the little things but I will not.
    I am fighting to bring back the whole truth.

    The moon landing might have had a science purpose but it was funded with one idea in mind. To prove to the world the US and only the US was top dog. Western civilization was the big guy.
    Christian ideas and religion even went with them. They prayed and even took communion on the Moon.
    They did not leave a Buddha behind of even burn incense to Gaia.
    The UN did not contribute a dime.

  • Cotour

    BINGO!

    “The moon landing might have had a science purpose but it was funded with one idea in mind. To prove to the world the US and only the US was top dog. Western civilization was the big guy.
    Christian ideas and religion even went with them. They prayed and even took communion on the Moon.
    They did not leave a Buddha behind of even burn incense to Gaia.
    The UN did not contribute a dime.”

    The moon mission had nothing to do with “doing it for us all”, it was focused on dominating the Russians.

    Is what it is.

  • wayne

    pzatchok-
    good stuff!

    m d mill-
    very nicely stated!

    Cotour– oh yeah, this Director Guy is a young elitist. He went to Harvard, I believe.

    The Mission, was to land on the Moon and safely return. “Science” was secondary on Apollo 11.

  • wayne

    Mitch–
    this shows the flag quite clearly as well

    Rammstein
    “Amerika” (English Edit)
    https://youtu.be/6unDcYBQSpQ
    4:16

    –I now wonder if Andrew_W views the USA like this?

  • Mitch S: Ugly, violent, and not very funny, to my mind. More evidence of how our society is becoming exactly like the society portrayed in Idiocracy, which was written as a comedy but is increasingly becoming more like a documentary:

  • Andrew_W

    Wayne, that link is blocked here, is this bizarre video the same version?

    https://vimeo.com/12086223

    If so your comment “–I now wonder if Andrew_W views the USA like this?” says more about your disconnect than mine.

  • Andrew_W

    Mitch, did you notice that, while at least two of the astronauts are wearing American flags, the one hiding behind the rock has an Italian flag on his suit?

  • Mitch S

    It seems the writer/director of the commercial was Italian, so perhaps he saw himself as the guest astronaut with the flatulence. BTW this wasn’t an ad for baked beans

    https://www.adweek.com/creativity/mock-commercial-beans-better-almost-any-real-commercial-anything-154538/

    Robert, is it violent?, yes, but clearly fictional. It’s really the same debate people have been having for decades over violence in film, TV and video games. BTW the second Superman movie (1980) had a scene where 3 astronauts on the moon are killed by the evil kryptonians.
    That Idiocracy scene – I agree with your sentiment that it’s fiction is reality in some circles, perhaps the circles Rammstein hangs out in.
    That Rammstein video made me laugh. Oh sure the spread of some American cultural artifacts may be bothersome but is Coca-Cola and even cigarette consumption worse than what unbridled German culture/power did to the world over the past century?
    It is fascinating how Rammstein featured the moon landing – it’s such a powerful symbol of the US and left such a strong impression on people all over the world.
    Ah it’s easy to mock the US while hiding behind it’s military shield (and hoping Americans keep buying those M-Bs, BMWs and Audis…)

  • Andrew_W

    Regarding aversion to violence.
    In the First World War young men went off to war thinking it would be a fun adventure, by the time The Second World War rolled around most people had a far better idea of what a horrible business war is, today, with our sanitized media and fictionalised violence, I think our perceptions of war and other violence is almost back to where it was in 1914.

    While that ad’s set on the Moon, there’s a lot of real life violence on Earth. I’ve recently been taking part in a couple of forums with people in West Africa. After seeing more than a few videos of real victims of violence and horrific accidents that would never be shown in Western media, I think viewing such scenes should be compulsory for those who advocate for military adventures that are likely to leave innocent people, with really nasty injuries, dieing as they thrash around in their own blood, such scenes are nothing like those in the movies.

  • commodude

    Andrew, I hate to differ with you, that’s certainly the popular version, however, most of Europe had been sending soldier off to war far more frequently for the 50 years prior to WW1 than pop history teaches. They damned well knew what they were getting into, not a “grand adventure”. I had relatives on both sides of the family who went to war in WW1, and they certainly never mentioned it in that light.
    As to the perceptions of war, with the ongoing issues in the Middle East, every community in the US has born the cost of war, and everyone knows someone who has gone or been impacted by the GWOT.

    The Time magazine version of reality and reality are tow very different things.

  • Michael Dean Miller

    Mr. Zimmerman,
    I’ve noticed a mile-wide streak of Hate Whitey that is the core of the current SJW and Historical Revisionist mania that generates the very article we’re discussing right now.
    Being Jewish yourself you note the anti-Israel stands some folks display and you condemn such.
    I’ve noticed it against Whites and speak out just like you.

  • commodude

    Kudos to Buzz Aldrin:

    http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/09/03/buzz-aldrin-slams-first-man-movie-controversy-posts-photos-us-flag-on-moon-with-proud-to-be-american-hashtag.html

    As an aside, the apologist pap being put out in press releases about not portraying planting the flag on the moon is becoming tiresome. They’ll get my $2 for a RedBox rental, not wasting the money to see it in the theater.

    (BTW, TWO different things, not tow. Never post B.C…..Before Coffee)

  • Cotour

    Andrew W:

    You would make a lousy FBI profiler, too huggy feely, a cockeyed optimist.

    I have a friend and as an experiment I ask him the age old question: Would you rather be loved or respected? His response: Oh, Loved. He was raised a Liberal Democrat, tells me he is well informed about politics. I tell him that he may be the most uniformed person related to the subject of politics that I know. Runs on intuition and emotion and the thinking that all people are basically good.

    He however is also possibly the most biased and judgmental person that I know. He is a nice guy as I am certain you are also, a very good friend of mine but unconscious when it comes to certain things even when presented with evidence that counters his thinking. He wants to be loved above all else. How would you answer the question: Loved or respected?

    There are many similarities between his answer and your position specifically on this issue and in general.

  • Cotour

    Lets just deffer to someone that was there, on the moon with Armstrong, and knew exactly what it was all about.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6125881/Buzz-Aldrin-blasts-Man-not-showing-planting-American-flag.html

    And while the film is I am certain a fine piece of work we understand that interpretation and politics permeates everything.

    Fin.

  • Michael Dean Miller: If you have been reading BtB you know that I have repeatedly documented this racist hatred of whites in the modern academic and leftist culture. However, it clearly does not apply here, and to bring it up in this thread could easily be misconstrued by bad people who want to look for any evidence to claim someone is racist. And as I am sure you know, there are many who would do this.

  • Andrew_W

    “How would you answer the question: Loved or respected?”
    If I have to answer it’s the latter, but in real life there’s no such dichotomy, you can have both, and what you get is what you earn.

  • Andrew_W

    Buzz-Aldrin-blasts-Man-not-showing-planting-American.
    Except he didn’t, apparently he wasn’t portrayed kindly in the film, and has posted a photo of himself saluting in front of a photo of him on the Moon with the flag. I doubt he’s seen the film either, so like many others has been deceived about it’s contents.

  • Andrew_W

    Last bit should have been: “so like many others may have been deceived about it’s contents.”

  • wayne

    This has some very good archival-film, and extensive family-interview’s.

    BBC Four : Neil Armstrong – First Man on the Moon
    https://youtu.be/7C41J6wyJH8
    59:00

  • Cotour

    Its a plain and simple question that requires a plain and simple answer, and it is essential to understand the difference between the two.

    Ask the question to anyone who has spent time in prison, they understand the question crystal clearly and will not for one second hesitate to answer, respect. In real life, keeping in mind that the modern first world is well removed from reality by the many layers of civilized protections that insulate us from it, you can certainly have both but you choose respect over love. These layers of insulation allow some the luxury to think incompletely about what reality is and is not.

    (Q: Is man in the process of changing reality in such a way that what was a human created layer of luxury becomes reality? Or will the foundation rules always apply no matter what man invents and manifests to alter reality?)

    Someone can learn and grow to respect you, but no one will love you without them first respecting you. What kind of love is based in disrespect?

    You answer the question in a non definite way and so you are more like my friend which is what I would have guessed. Which does not make you a bad person but it does influence your thinking in how you interpret the world. Something to consider maybe.

  • Andrew_W

    “Its a plain and simple question that requires a plain and simple answer,” “You answer the question in a non definite way . . ”

    I said: “If I have to answer, it’s the latter”.
    That answer is plain and simple and definite, I went on to explain why it’s a stupid question.

  • There’s two kinds of countries: those who use Metric, and those who put men on the Moon.

    I was wondering if they omitted the flag being on the Moon altogether, or if they just didn’t include a scene of Neil and Buzz planting it. If the latter, then so what? Every frame of every scene counts and if the director decided not to include a flag-planting scene then big deal. It’s not like they left the flags off of their spacesuits or omitted “USA” from the Saturn V. They didn’t. If the movie accurately shows it there on the Moon, then we are making much ado about nothing.

    Seriously people, the Left is probably laughing themselves silly watching us get our panties in a twist over this. Don’t feed the trolls.

  • Cotour

    Your answer is indefinite, “if you had to choose”. You have been choosing your whole life.

    And you choose but with a caveat, “but in real life there’s no such dichotomy, you can have both, and what you get is what you earn.”.

    A stupid question?

    No, its the answer that sufferers from a lack of cohesive, rational and concrete thought. Like I said, you would make a lousy FBI profiler.

  • commodude

    Pat, panties in a twist? Hardly.

    It’s just another blatant example of the anti-Americanism that pervades the leftist-controlled pop culture. The director admits it when he claims the the moon landing is a human event. No, it was an American event rooted in challenges both political and other which were overcome by the US. Not Canada, not France, but the US, working as a sole actor via NASA in answer to the work being done by the Soviet Union.

    I’m not even upset, just disappointed that Hollywood continues to push the globalist agenda which is such a blatant total failure.

  • wayne

    commodude-
    I would 2nd that motion and request a vote.

  • wayne

    Animal House-
    “…bad mouth, the United States of America.”
    https://youtu.be/38ETQ1RYa_Q
    0:28

  • I don’t doubt the globalist “neuter America” agenda at all. But I do think this is much less of an issue than the complaints warrant.

    If they didn’t show the flag on the moon, if they wiped “United States” off the spacecraft, if they didn’t have flags on the spacesuits, then I’d have a serious problem with this movie. But they didn’t, so I don’t.

    For that matter, go the 46-second mark in the latest trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4GtJB5WAlQ

    The director made an artistic decision. Having said that, I’m also under no illusions that some Chinese financier somewhere isn’t happy about it…

  • wayne

    Commodude-
    good one!

    “The Duality of Man” (it’s a Jungian thing)
    Full Metal Jacket
    https://youtu.be/4VHKpGJX29s
    1:20

  • Andrew_W

    “For that matter, go the 46-second mark in the latest trailer”

    [Image of US flag waving from pole by someones porch]

    “The director made an artistic decision. Having said that, I’m also under no illusions that some Chinese financier somewhere isn’t happy about it…”

    Are you really that paranoid? Really? SMH

  • commodude

    It isn’t paranoia, it’s reality. Chinese businesses and the PLA are one in the same in reality. PLA finances Hollywood among other reasons for propaganda value.

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/chinese-film-fund-bets-100m-hollywood-directors-fraught-us-relations-1032938

    If you think Chinese funding doesn’t come with some major strings attached, then your naivete is showing.

  • wayne

    commodude-
    I definitely concur with that thought.

    Consider as well; the Chi-Com’s have a huge foot into distribution. They own AMC corp, which means they own almost 1/2 of all the movie theater seats, in North America.

  • wayne

    additional: “Wanda Group,” is the chi-com conglomerate, that owns AMC, the (nominally US based) movie-theater chain. And Wanda is so big, the PLA couldn’t help but have a thick percentage.

    correction: that should be ” through Wanda and AMC, chi-com’s own almost 1/2 of all movie theater screens, in North America.”

  • Steve Earle

    Wayne, thanks for that info that I was unaware of.

    Yet another reason to patronize your local Drive-In Theater, where the seats are comfortable, the sound system is better, the Hot Dogs are delicious, and the atmosphere is still 1950s and 60’s America :-)

    http://drive-ins.com/

  • commodude

    Steve, and if you’re in MA, the fries are excellent.

    https://www.mendondrivein.com/snack-bar/

  • Steve Earle

    That’s one of my favorites. They were bought by the “Phantom Gourmet Show” people, who immediately improved the snackbar and opened a beer garden :-)

    2 screens so there are always 4 movies to choose from each night. And they stay open late in the season. Sometimes even into December.

    Only downside is they are about an hour away from me. I also love the Wellfleet Drive In on Cape Cod, which is an old single screen dating from the 1950’s, and the Rustic Tri-View, which is a 3 screen just into Rhode Island :-)

  • Steve Earle

    I tried posting this in my comment above but it didn’t stick for some reason:

    Dancing Hot Dog, 1957 Drive In Snackbar Ad
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/arts-culture/dancing-hot-dog/

  • wayne

    Steve Earle / Commodude:
    -Ah, drive-in’s!
    -The Chi Com’s only own a small percentage of drive-in screens. (There’s not that many left.)
    We have 1 drive-in, in town, still in operation. (we used to have 4.) The next nearest one is about a 75 mile drive.

    For vintage drive-in adverts, check out:

    https://archive.org/details/DriveInMovieAds

  • commodude

    Steve, VERY off topic, but….

    I used to live about 20-30 minutes from both the rustic tri-view and the Mendon-Upton drive in, and they were frequent stops in the summer when I wasn’t working. Now that I live in upstate, New York, there aren’t many options. Haven’t been to Mendon since they were bought, the snack bar was always pretty good regardless.

  • Gene Shipp

    America got there FIRST!! And THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE MISSION. To get there first. Remember it was a space RACE. We won.

    The director damn sure is being political. He probably thinks there is something bad about the United States of America winning. He’s a pacifist !

    The American way – God’s way, Capitalism, is still the best way to do everything all these decades later.

  • Edward

    Just to let you all know, the comments by “Edward” above are from a different Edward than the aerospace engineer who has been posting here for a few years. I disagree with some of what the other Edward has written in this thread, and I want to avoid confusion between him and me. Those of you who have been responding to Edward, above, have not been responding to me. This is my first entry in this thread. I am sorry for the confusion.
    https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/hollywood-once-again-reveals-its-distaste-for-america/#comments

    At this point, I am uncertain how to distinguish myself from the other Edward.

    Lee S recommended: “Chill out!

    The problem is the intention of the filmmakers as explained by them. They intend to change the meaning of the American achievement into a human or world achievement. It may only be a movie, but all too many people believe what they see in movies — especially those that are seen as documenting factual history. Remember Tom Wolf’s mention of “Breaking the Sound Barrier” in his book “The Right Stuff”? People actually believed that the British first broke the sound barrier by diving in a jet — and that the controls worked backward when flying above 1 Mach.

    Thus, as the current generation, which is already iffy on whether we went to the Moon, is intended to get the impression that going to the Moon was a human, not American, achievement.

    That is the filmmakers’ stated intention, and that is what we disagree with. It is a reasonable disagreement.

    As pzatchok noted, this is just one more nibble taken away from the truth.

    pzatchok wrote: “All because progressives don’t like competition. Someone could lose.

    The losers would usually be the progressives. Their precious socialism fails everywhere and every time it is tried. Socialism just can’t compete against any other human system. Even the American Indians did better than the more technologically advanced Plymouth Colony did during its year of socialism, during which half the colony perished.

    Steve Earle wrote: “I also agree with Mr Z’s suspicion that our non-American friends just can’t wrap their brains around what is actually happening here and what it really means for the future, not only here but for the World.

    “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.” Often attributed to Thomas Jefferson, this sentiment is what we are doing, right now. Progressives are attempting to hijack an unearned share of the achievement of a free country, as though any other country or political system could have done the same thing. It was the liberty enjoyed by an engineer at NASA who came up with the Lunar Orbit Rendezvous option. Before him, everyone knew that there were only two ways to get to the Moon, and both were harder to accomplish. Rather than a top-down system, NASA’s management listened to the lower ranks for better options in many aspects of early space travel.

    What we are doing in this thread is part of the vigilance that it takes in order to keep our liberty. Progressive filmmakers — as they themselves stated — are trying to take away the credit that America’s free market capitalist system deserves in the victory over the less capable communist system. This allows those generations that view this movie to miss the importance of the American system in the victory and give it to a world-view system. That is what the filmmakers have stated as their intent.

    Andrew_W asked: “if the flag planting was so important to American’s, why did so few go watch it on youtube?

    YouTube is not the be-all end-all place to see things. There are plenty of other places to have watched it, such as the very popular TV mini-series “From the Earth to the Moon,” in which planting the flag was not omitted but highlighted.

    Mitch S wrote: “But here this movie is being condemned by people who haven’t seen it

    But what we have seen is the filmmakers’ statements on their intended lessons from this film. We strongly disagree with those lessons, and that is what we are condemning.

    Andrew_W,
    Since all we have to go on is what the filmmakers have said, then any deception made is made by those filmmakers.

    Pat Chiles,
    If the left is laughing, then they do not understand the topic of discussion — but I would expect that of them. Many here also do not understand the topic and have tried to move us off topic. Please read my comment that I linked at the beginning of this comment, as I explain why planting the flag has been a centuries-old important aspect of many achievements of this kind and why it has been depicted in most or all previous movies and documentaries of Apollo 11.
    As stated by the director and the lead actor, leaving out the planting of the flag is intended as a slight against America’s achievement in order to give unearned credit to the world as a whole.

  • Cotour

    How about changing your BTB handle to : “Molten Carpet”. It certainly is distinctive and unique, no one would ever confuse you with another ever again and everyone on BTB would know who you were.

    Some other suggestions:
    1. EdwardMC ?
    2. EMC ?
    3. EMoltenC ?
    4. EMC2750F’ ?

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    that’s a bit much don’t-ya-think?

    Reference: naming conventions….
    I’d suggest pre-existing Edward continue as-is, and new Edward differentiate himself in some manner.

  • eddie willers

    Late to the thread, but I knew Buzz would be PO’d.

    I bet he’d like to punch somebody in the nose.

  • Cotour

    No, not at all, the man seemed to be lost and searching for an answer. He won’t see the post though, he never reads my posts so he probably will not evaluate them. Too bad I put some effort into it.

    Personally I like: EMC2750F’ Its got a lot of content and technical meaning and its kind of sci fi.

    If I were come up with a BTB handle for you Wayne it might be: VIDEOGENIUS, or VIDEOSAVANT, something along those lines. I don’t know how you do it.

  • Cotour

    Here’s an evening pause for you, featuring : EMC2750F’ (Formerly EDWARD on BTB)

    https://youtu.be/gma5IUNMTn0

    Like I said, sounds kind of scifi, no? This is how I picture him to possibly look like as EMC2750F’.

    What do you think?

  • wayne

    Andrew_W:

    “the wine and cheese was good as well.”

  • Andrew_W

    Wayne, thanks for your reply. I assume that you’re just acknowledging that you read the review, but – if I was as paranoid as other commenters here – I’d probably conclude that your quoting “the wine and cheese was good as well” was clear evidence of proof that you believed that TripleSeven was one of those foreign fifth columnists, that “the wine and cheese was good as well” sounds very French, so TripleSeven must be a Eurocentric anti-American.

    So easy, if you’re so inclined, to see what isn’t there.

  • wayne

    Andrew_W;
    HAR.
    :)
    You, are very good. (seriously) Often mistaken, but very well played, nonetheless.

    Read the review. That’s the line that stuck out to me, along with his other “boy..I’m Special,” sorta tone.
    I however, just let that stand on it’s own. To paraphrase you from a different thread, “that’s says more about your disconnect than it does mine,” in other words… I didn’t necessarily imply he was an elitist, but you definitely inferred. (Or vice versa, I can never keep that straight.)

    I don’t need to look to Europe to find high-brow elitist’s who snarf expensive cheese & guzzle wine.

    Fully granted:
    I haven’t seen this movie. And, truth be told, I don’t really care.
    God knows I love a good movie and Hollywood has cranked out millions of stories…

    …. but it’s Product. Mediated Product.
    Everything that you see, is in the Script.

    >They manufacture it all wholesale, and sell it at retail.

    Red Hot Chili Peppers
    Californication
    https://youtu.be/YlUKcNNmywk
    5:21

  • Andrew_W

    Wayne, unfortunately I don’t deserve your praise, at least not in the way you mean it – which perhaps isn’t a bad thing. If TripleSeven hadn’t explained where he’d seen the movie I would have been left wondering, so I’m glad he explained it. The mention of wine and cheese I took as nothing of importance, perhaps a way to emphasize that it had been an all round good evening. If you or Mr. Zimmerman had written something similar, I would have taken it the same way, if a friend had sent me an email mentioning the wine and cheese, or anyone from a forum of normal people such as NSF posted a comment like TripleSeven’s, I might have taken it as a deliberately hollow, self depreciating boast, certainly not a serious boast as you see it, and I wouldn’t in a million years see it as something to use as an excuse to pin pejorative labels on anyone.

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