Public debt and the peril of Obamacare


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Public debt and the peril of Obamacare.

Countries with universal healthcare fall into two camps:

1. Totalitarian regimes like Cuba and North Korea, and authoritarian Third World countries in the Middle East and Africa.

2. Western nations that free-ride off of American military spending and its provision of international security, but nonetheless run unsustainable budgets with immense debts trying to pay for their social welfare states. [emphasis mine]

In other words, we had better repeal this monstrosity or we face economic collapse, probably preceded by a dictatorship.

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20 comments

  • since we all believe in american exceptionalism . can’t we be exceptional in the area of universal health care? . I think it is possible for a nation to provide basic health care to all it’s citizens while maintaining growth, protecting freedom, and succesfully competing in the global market. If anyone can do it we can.

  • jwing

    Hey Walter, there is nothing exceptional about mandating, under the penalty of fine and/or imprissonment for not purchasing health insurance from a preselected group of government approved plans.

  • i was saying it would be exceptional if we figured out how to provide basic care for everyone and still be the leading free competitive successful nation . i think it is possible . i don’t understand obamacare that much so I’m not sure exactly how or if it will work I’m just saying in theory the goal of providing basic care to everyone is attainable in my opinion . it seemed like this post was trying to say that the idea of providing a basic level of care for everyone in a free and successful society is completely impossible even in theory, that is what i disagree with

  • jwing

    Walter, think objectively about what you are proposing in assuring “free” or gorenment provided,managed and rationed health care to everyone. It sounds so beautiful and appeals to the best intentions of man but it is idealogical and impossible. Why stop at healthcare, the same good intentions and compassionate feelings could just as easily be applied to a guaranteed home, job, food, pleasure, ad infinitum. Walter…please acknowledge that what you wish for is at best a fantasy and at worst a dehuminized system of patronage, rationing and a burgeoning black market. In essence, what you propose it Karl Marx’s communism. It has been tried several times in the past century and it led to millions dead and untold human suffering. As much as you want to make a perfect world for everyone, you will never create such utopia. Just look to the natural world as described by evolutionist and aetheist Charles Darwin. Life on earth is about survival of the fittest. It is an unfair world and you can’t, no matter how much you empathize and care, you can not create equality of outcomes for every person’s health care, economic status, genetic make up and so on. I am a REALIST and approach life, economics and politics from a rational, scientific and moral viewpoint, and as so, I know you are wrong to try to force people to do what you think is right or compassionate by using the force of goevernment. The fact is you don’t know what is best and it is not your business to do so no matter how compassionate you feel it is. Keep your hands off my health, my liberties and those of everyone else; just worry about yourself and your family. The rest will solve itself.

  • Why not open the USA to a free market on the health care issues. This will solve the problem.

  • I do not believe in equality for all people please do not characterize what I said like that . as owen wister’s main character in the Virginian says, “Equality is a great big bluff.” . providing a basic level of care for all would be a luxury for the rest of the people who could afford higher quality care because they would get to feel like they lived in a better world . when I say basic health care I am talking about a level of care most people would rather spend money to avoid if they could afford it . when i say basic level of care i mean what poor people have gotten in the past and get now . for example when I say basic level of care I mean you go in to the doctor for pain form a kidney stone and end up passing it yourself in the bathroom at the hospital because you had to wait many hours and never got to see a nurse or doctor . the status quo deals with these people in the most expensive way possible and pushes the cost to the people who do pay for care

  • yes i agree i think the power of the free market can save everyone . the trick is to figure out how to use it to solve the problem instead of giving up and claiming freedom and universal health care are impossible . how free can you feel anyway when you aren’t even trying to help the people who are hurting the most in your society?

  • as a challenge to your request for the government to keep its hands off . would you argue for fire and police protection to be eliminated? do you want to eliminate public schools? and the military? food and drug inspection? it might be simple for you to call me a communist but it is equally simple for me to imagine you live on a compound somewhere with food and weapons stockpiled and stopped paying your taxes years ago . keep working on bridging the mineshaft gap buddy!

  • jwing

    Walter, you don’t understand the reality of life. We all live and die ultimately on our own. No universal, all-encompassing, feel-good panacea of whatever contrivance will ever alter this basic fact…we come into the world and we leave this world as individuals not as a communally shared experience. Life is ultimately an individual experience for everyone. No matter how one desires to “share” the sacrafice, the burdens of living rest with the individual.
    I have worked as a nurse assistant in a long term care, skilled nursing home, as a volunteer paramedic on a city fire and rescue squad, as an emergency room technician, as a level I trauma room technician , as a flight nurse with a BSN , RN, and as a medical student of a four year state medical school. I know the heatlh care system from all levels, and I know you as completely wrong no matter how empathetic and compassionate your feelings are regarding the subject of socialized health care. Believe me when I tell you that it is a bottomless pit and that no amount of money and human caring and labor will be able to adequately provide for health care when it is considered a freebie, a guaranteed right. The free market is the most efficient, and compassionate method of delivering basic and high level health care bar none. Yes everyone should have access to emergency care regardless of their situation, but to ask the average citizen to be taxed, a subsidize everyone’s unique health care needs from birht to death without any personal contribution is insanity and an idealistic impossibility. The system is corrupt, it can be gained and will always favor those with power influecne and political connections first while rationing or outright denying care on a truly inhumane and arbitrary manner. You can’t create heaven-on-earth; it’s been tried and it is hell-on earth instead. Sorry to burst your bubble but we have to all play the hand we are dealt and not take or steal from some to favor the others…that is Marxism which leads to misery and bloodshed, not mild and honey.

  • jwing i don’t feel like you addressed my response really . i am not saying we need the government to remove the burdens of living from individuals or to stop us from being alone or individual or however you define your existence . i do not advocate socialized health care . i do not wish for everyone’s unique health care needs to be subsidized from birth to death . i am not trying to create heaven on earth

    i think we as americans working together can be exceptional when it comes to universal healthcare . that is my point

    the original post that started this thread claimed that universal healthcare is only possible without freedom and no one has convinced me this is true, i actually believe the opposite . i completely believe in winners and losers you keep missing my point talking about karl marx comon!

    i think we may have completely different definitions of what universal healthcare is maybe thats the problem

  • jwing

    I agree…you think universal health care is what defines being an exceptional nation. You would just as easily say that universal food insurance, universal housing, universal jobs, universal education, universal leisure are also rewuired to be an “exceptional” nation, but you would never admit that what you are proposing is anti-free market, anti-capitalism because that would reveal true idealogy. Stop being so smug and just admit that you want socialism or the much stronger flavor, marxism a la Mao perhaps to define what you believe is America’s destiny toward becoming exceptional. Walter just be honest and admit your a marxist.

  • i think universal health care means every person gets some basic low level of health care

    i think you think universal health care means every person gets every health care need taken care of for free and quality of care is equal for everyone

    the key is the word universal . i am thinking of it covering everyone with the kind of care indigent people get now . since everyone would get this level of care it is described as universal . i think you are thinking of it covering every aspect of health care for everyone . since every possible thing is covered it is described as universal

  • oh i thought of an example to help explain: universal police protection

    i think that right now in america we have universal police protection . basically theres a number anyone can call if they need help

    your definition of universal would mean for universal police protection everyone in america would have a policeman assigned to gaurd thier house , thier car and other property , and have a policemen follow them around to provide personal protection

    do you see how these two scenarios could both be described as universal police protection? right now in america if you are very successful you can have either type of police protection or anything inbetween depending on what you can afford or are willing to spend , but basically no matter who you are anywhere in america you can expect a certain basic level of police protection aka 911 response

  • jwing

    Walter, to update you regarding your smug “universal” police protection comment…The Supreme Court ruled that citizens can not demand nor is a police department obligated to protect you. As you know, the cops come after the break-in, after the accident, after the bank robbery and after the rape and murder. The same analogy works for fire protection. In every case the individual is ultimately responsible for his/her own health and safety. We are not children who need a naany state government to take care to but a bandage on our boo-boos and wipe our snoty noses. Maybe you want to be treated like an immature child from cradle to grave, but most thinking adults abhor the thought of a patronizing, intrusive government. It’s not that your intentions of providing such institutional care seem good, it’s that anyone can already receive true emergent care at any emergency room. The problem with your arguement is that no government, either with good intention or with oppresive dictates can control the lifetyle choices that effect the health and well being of individuals. Examples…prohibition failed although started with the good intentions of ending alcoholism, the war on drugs failed as it just made the mafia and drug cartels stronger, LBJ’s government “war on poverty” failed vis a vis the enduring entitlement and welfare state. I can go on, but you see my point. Even today, liberal Obama and his wife are trying to control peoples eating habits through goverment intervention in order to get poor people from gravitating toward eating greasy fast food. Good luck with that, Michele. Walter, government can’t protect people from themselves. It’s hard enough for parents to get their children to listen and obey, but somehow liberal socialist elites with PHd’s in sociology and other soft social sciences believe throught their pure arrogance that the common man can be culled. Scientific dialectis or PC pressure won’t solve the problem. Marxism was tried and failed. Walter, you can hide behind any name, put if you are pushing and proposing government mandated, basic health care for all, you are a socialist at best and a closet marxist at worst. I’ve noticed how in all your comments, you never admit or deny my statements concerning yur poitical philosophy on this topic. I understand, no marxist will ever admit to that outright…instead your a proggresive, a liberal, etc…..

  • to your distiction of calling the police before or after the crime . the universal health care i envision would allow someone to go to the doctor after they feel pain if they want to . so i don’t see how you can say I want the government to be able to prevent anything bad from happening to people . i don’t feel like you are trying to understand me at all maybe you feel the same

    philisophically – all I am trying to say is freedom is the only way a society can work well enough to ever practically be able to provide basic services for all people . which is basically the opposite argument that the original post was about

    also could you provide a link or something about your claim that the supreme court told the police they don’t have to protect people? the way I understand the responsibilties of the police if they are witness to a crime in progress they are obligated to try to stop it . i have heard read and seen many instances of law enforcement attempting to thwart a crime in progress . i used to skateboard in public places where the law said I could not and believe me the police didn’t wait until after we were done to start chasing us

    i will go ahead and characterize my philosophy as robbenberryism . do you think the start trek style vision of the future is communist and marxist ? if you do then we just see things different i guess . by the way all of tng is on netflix now so you can study up on what a positive vision of our future looks like!

  • jwing

    In a June 27, 2005 decision, the US Supreme Court decided in a 5-4 majority in the case Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the court decided that a person does NOT have a constitutional right to police protcetion EVEN in the case of that person obtaining a restraing order. Walter, you can live in fantasy land or believe in a utopian society envisioned by countless science ficiton writers, but I live in the real world and am a realist. My life, health and welfare are mine to protect and the minute I give that resposibility to someone else, I cede control and allow for the human defect of lust for power over others to determine my destiny….all in the name of feel-good, altruistic, hand-holding, peace-loving, happy smiley faced facsism to rear its dreadful head.
    Once you allow others to take responibility over your society, the worst nature of humanity will eventually surface to grab even more control and power over you and your utopian society. It only works out well in the movies, but if you read any history(reality), it is replete in man’s oppression and subjugation of others once the average person has ceded power and authority to a ruling class, dictator, savior or IDEOLOGY i.e science fiction fantasy……

  • quote from wikipedia:

    “Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005), was a case decided by the Supreme Court of the United States, in which the court ruled, 7-2, that a town and its police department could not be sued under 42 U.S.C. §1983 for failing to enforce a restraining order, which had led to the murder of a woman’s three children by her estranged husband.”

    ok once again what I’m saying is not what you’re saying i’m saying . a basic level of universal police protection allows a person to call 911 and get some kind of response . your idea of universal would be that the police would have to camp out at this woman’s house and follow her and protect her 24/7 for the rest of her life to do thier best to prevent her kids from being murdered . i agree that kind of universal is ridiculous . but if you are a winner in our society it is easy to afford this level of protection if you really want it and I think that is good

    as far as my reference to the movies , i think you are living in a fantasy land if you think star trek or any other movie is about a utopian society that doesn’t make sense . a movie set in a real utopian society would never sell there is no story it is boring . it would be the end of history according to hegel . movies about utopian societies usually are about how they seem utopian on the surface but then we find there are huge problems under the surface

    i do not think you have as much control of your life as you think you do . you don’t have much control of the english language either maybe this is the underlying problem with our little conversation . i like talking to you though at least you respond . i think thats cool most people don’t care about my coments enough to respond . i think maybe this is an example for most of america we probably actually believe mostly the same things but accuse each other of believing other things

  • jwing

    Your ad hominem attacks aside, your comments and lack of refutation lead me to conclude that you are hanging our on Bob Zimmerman’s website as a liberal, pro-big government, socialist/marxist. I have no further need to discuss anything further with you since you never answer my charges and instead, like a good fellow traveller, change the subject, defer and then in the end slander the person’s intelligence with your ad honinem attack regarding my sprelling on this rather crude text messaging editor. I at least start every sentence with a capital letter.

  • well ok then . cheers! nice epic thread

  • also i want to say i’m sorry i said your communication skills are poor i am probably more hopeless (note my multiple faliures at effective communication in this thread) . and now thread has 20 comments hooray!

    i was trying to make a joke at first but a joke i believe based on a truth . there is a long list of things america has accomplished that are unprecedented in history . regardless of whether or not universal health care is possible or desireble in a free society , attempting to prove the point one way or another by stating that no other nation can do it is funny and in my opinion and an un-american type of argument if you want to get serious about it

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