Fox reporter threatened, chased from bar


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They’re coming for you next: A Fox news reporter was threatened and then chased from a Brooklyn bar this week, merely because one patron discovered where she works.

Timpf was confronted by a woman, who, after hearing she worked at Fox News, became enraged and began shouting at her in a threatening manner.

“This girl started going nuts on me, screaming at me to get out of the bar. I found her very threatening,” Timpf said of the woman, whom she had never met before. She said she tried to move to another section of the large bar but the young woman followed her while continuing to scream.

The woman, who was visibly intoxicated at the time, was surrounded by a large group of men and women who all stood by and laughed as she harassed Timpf and followed her around the bar. After realizing no one in the group would defend her in what might become a violent situation, Timpf was forced to flee the bar.

“It was super uncomfortable and I didn’t want things to get physical,” she said. [emphasis mine]

It is the audience that counts. One person was bullying this reporter, and everyone else “stood by and laughed.”

Bad times are coming. You will not be defended should you be attacked physically because of your conservative political beliefs. Be prepared.

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131 comments

  • Cotour

    I had a conversation with a customer the other day, and we concurred. The conversation included the subjects of shootings and radical politics. (She I am certain is a full blood Liberal Lesbian, a very nice woman, writer/ wife/ partner)

    The conclusion? Its getting a better and better idea to stay home in your own box or in smaller family friends venues where you know the people who surround you. So we have Facebook and Amazon and the like destroying interpersonal relationships and isolating people and the bricks and mortar retail / night life culture and appears to potentially be creating this new paradigm in human interactions and social behavior.

  • Col Beausabre

    Once again, WTF was the management doing? You try that in the establishments I frequent, you would be confronted by several male employees – one probably with the baseball bat from under the bar – and told in no uncertain terms to STFU and get out NOW.

  • Col Beausabre: This was in very leftist Brooklyn, part of very leftist New York. Anyone who is conservative is automatically considered evil and deserving of ill treatment. The management almost certainly applauded her harassment.

  • Max

    It looks like the call to go after this administration, and conservatives wherever you find them, is being taken seriously by the militant left. They don’t apologize for their side shooting Republicans at the ball park, if anything they are encouraging it. (i’ve heard the left say,”guns are evil and bad unless they are pointed at conservatives”)
    There was a gathering in New York that made the news wanting to impeach the trump administration to save the world… This article reminded me of it. They claim to be anti-fascist, but when I looked up the organization they are funded by fascist dictators and socialists.
    The hate group;
    https://refusefascism.org/
    Their nonprofit was created and supported by a nonprofit out of Tucson Arizona. Look who provides the funding for it.
    https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/alliance-for-global-justice/
    Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea…
    It looks like George Soros is teaching our enemies how it’s done, gorilla warfare for the modern age. Why send an army against us when they can send in South American migrants and domestic useful idiots…

  • 911 is there for a reason.

  • Blair Ivey: Why are people so quick to put the blame on the victims of these harassment attacks? First, one commenter calls Tucker Carlson stupid for simply assuming he and his family could live a normal life in the U.S. Now you are saying that this Fox reporter should have called 911.

    Why should she have had to?! Common decency should have required the patrons at the bar to stop the harassment and threats from this one woman. Common decency should have prevented the altercation in the first place.

    The only ones we should express any criticism of in these cases are the thugs who, with their jackbooted behavior, are destroying our civilized society.

  • Edward

    Blair Ivey wrote: “911 is there for a reason.

    Once again, it is assumed that only government can solve a problem that government officials created. There once was a time when Americans all got along with each other, as Rodney King requested, but Democratic leaders have destroyed that attitude in a fundamental transformation of America. It is like some science fiction dystopia story.

  • Lee S

    This kind of behaviour breaks my heart… Not only because it is shameful, but because it taints anything it touches… And it is tainting anything left of center right now..
    I am very left leaning in my politics… I come from Europe, and see how a socialist minded government can and does work for the people.
    The constant stream of stories of abuse and stupidity by idiots labled “the left” does nothing to help politics… It only serves to alienate the many millions world wide who would rather have a left of center government, but are too afraid to vote that way because of extremism under the wrong name…
    “The left” is not a fair or correct term for the snowflakes who are trying to styful freedom of speech… “The left” is not a fair or correct term for the idiots who are butt hurt by “trigger words”…. And try and force their own agendas on everyone else…
    “The left” to Me, is an inclusive, caring side to politics, who believe in higher taxes for the greater good of the greater numbers…
    Once the term “left” stops being applicable to people with my political leaning…. What are we left with???
    A one viable party election is no democratic election.

  • Lee S. Your words are appreciated. However, you should look at the links that Max provided in his comment above. The groups that are promoting the attacks against conservatives have deep roots in the left. It might be the more extremist elements of the left, but it is the left nonetheless.

    Both sides have their dark sides. Right now however the dark side of the left has become very dominant and public. We need more people on your side standing up to condemn this behavior. Sadly, we aren’t getting it.

  • Cotour

    ” Common decency should have prevented the altercation in the first place.”

    If only, maybe it will be like that when utopia arrives, when love is all that everyone will have for each other, where puppies never grow old and die, etc, etc.

    But until that day arrives if you have to call 911 you call it, its there for a reason. Why? Because the world is NOT how it “should” be.

  • wodun

    I don’t know if there ever was a time Americans got along with each other. But I am with Col Beausabre, where was the bouncer? Calling the cops isn’t a solution because someone saying mean things to you isn’t high up the priority list of things for them to take care of. As far as others stepping in, that could lead to them being charged with a crime if things escalated. It is the responsibility of the bar to prevent their patrons from harassing each other and starting fights.

    The troubling thing is that this is the type of behavior that Democrat leaders have overtly obligated their followers to engage in. It isn’t like some random wacko going postal. Normal people are being moved to violence because that is what the Democrat leaders are preaching at them to do. They will blame Trump for their behavior but we all know it would be the exact same if some other Republican were President.

  • wodun wrote: “I don’t know if there ever was a time Americans got along with each other.”

    Americans have always had their disagreements about policy and governance. What is completely different now is the lack of tolerance for dissent, coming from the left.

    And I do know of a time when this tolerance was standard operating procedure, with violence and harassment like this the exception that proved the rule. My historical research forced me to delve into it. It certainly existed many times in the past, even as recently as the last half of the twentieth century.

  • hondo

    The road being travelled will most definitely lead to violence – it’s all just an inevitable escalating path.
    The thing about the left is that they are overwhelming soft blue smurfs to whom violence is a CGI fantasy construct.

  • Cotour

    This phase of Leftist activity in America I think is at a much higher level then any period in the past because of two things.

    1. The Democrat leadership is sooo bereft of anything that resembles anything in the interests of actual everyday Americans and has slipped sooo far Left that it is becoming too obvious to rational Americans and they pose a true threat of destroying their party because of it. This will further be revealed as the Dems take control of the many Congressional committees that they will have to decide just how far they should go. I can not wait for Maxine Waters to chair the banking committee.

    and

    2. The Leftist agenda has never been more organized than today because of the education of the now young politically active participants the Left has educated and the level of technology that exists to organize them. We can see it all over from the ridiculous politically correct of the SJW activities in the universities to the Southern borders. Two intersecting anti American coup de tats attempts that have come a long way in real terms.

    We can see the caravans as they approach, the agenda is to constantly flood California with South Americans until all of a sudden they out number Americans. As long as our immigration policy and welfare state incentivizes their financial support and their admission there will be no stopping them. This is what the Democrats see as their future.

    And the Democrats are so committed to their acquisition of power at any cost they see these Anti and un American actions and activities as their only way to power and so they choose to fool themselves. We are about to see what the true and indoctrinated Leftists now attaining power in Congress and how they are going to treat those who think they are going to be their masters. They hate all of those white bread Americans equally, Republican, Democrat, all white bread and all the enemy of the cause. And the cause is to raze what is and build a new where capitalism and the Constitution are traded in for Socialist utopia.

    That really is how simple it is.

    The only hope? The other half of America who sees this all as plain as day and stops it from continuing. Its going to be an interesting two years.

  • wayne

    Jordan Peterson –
    “The Difference Between Tolerance and Nihilism”
    -excerpt-
    https://youtu.be/5rCI_2EvnZw
    2:28

  • D. Messier

    This is appalling behavior and is wrong. The same is true when Trump praises a politician who attacked a reporter during an re-election rally and the crowd cheered.

    Herein lies the problem with Trump yelling fake news, calling the press the enemy of the people and praising those who attack journalists. People have different definitions of what these terms mean. Trump demonizes CNN. But there’s blowback to other journalists because some people view Fox that way.

    Read up on the abuse Washington took from the republican press while he was president. It was nasty. But he respected free speech and the role the press played in republic. Didn’t resort to Trump stle tactics.

  • wayne

    Trump is simply the instrument. He’s just the first Ape to Say No. He says out loud, what we all know to be true– the fake press, is the enemy of the people. And the fake press undermines our society, at their own peril.
    These people don’t speak truth to power, they are the power, and they endlessly dissemble (yeah, that is a word and the correct one) and lie to the people.

    “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.”

    “If you are surfing, you don’t confuse yourself with the wave. That’s the real mistake, you might be on top of the wave, but you’re not the wave.”

    “The Wave 🌊 ”
    ft. Jordan Peterson
    Akira July, 2018
    https://youtu.be/cmjAVZjLQr8
    4:10

  • Chris

    Wayne – Jordan Peterson .Good stuff but often long
    A friend of mine has often mentioned him on many subjects including diet.

    On Trump and the Press
    First, yes he is the first ape (J Perteson esque) to say no. And God bless us for him doing this and being ale to be in the position he is in while he does it so that he must be paid attention to.
    We should take what he says seriously – he is the First Ape to say No. if one looks back many of the things he has said are true
    His HQ was bugged (and spies were placed in his campaign)- truly astonishing!

    And many statements are what we have known but he states them in a harsh way:
    “Fake News”. We know the Press is not objective and at least selects news if not edits and creates stories. Fox News has its faults too but not compared to the decades of tortured created “News” we have seen from the Main Stream media.

    So Trump reflects the long over due (50 years by my count) backlash the the “standard American”. This is the guy who knew racism was wrong but also knew quotas were Institutional Racism – but didn’t have a voice. He saw the Great Society spend 4-6trillion without real result and had no voice. He saw the sexual revolution and knew that even though it was freedom of choice it also had a large part of moral decay – but he had no voice. And on and on.

    Trump is that voice. And even if he fumbles his words or exaggerates the truth or gets some things wrong he is a Voice screaming back. Back into the face of 50 years of ratcheting movement Left without rebound.

    If he is silenced I fear the worst

  • Cotour

    Chris:

    “His HQ was bugged (and spies were placed in his campaign)- truly astonishing!”

    Trumps campaign was clearly bugged by the Obama administration and his government operatives in the DOJ and the FBI, probably at Obama’s direct order and who are they charging a special prosecutor to investigate? Trump. Might there be a special prosecutor be compelled to investigate the clearly indicated bad acts of the Obama administration and his operatives? Not yet.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/08/mueller-probe-court-hearing-975847

    And its Trump even after it is fairly clear to most that there is no there there related to the Russians and nothing related to Obama and the Democrats.

    Although this challenge to Mueller and his special investigation which IMO is a very sustainable argument needs to be ruled on by the courts, I.E. the Supreme Court. All of the players in this political drama that have caused the investigation to be initiated and all of those that have been charged with executing the investigation are all clearly to varying degrees conflicted and are ALL involved at some level and are biased, and very likely in a criminal manner. (Why would anyone answer questions in front of a grand jury or asked by FBI agents?)

    “Professional objectivity” is one of those “fake news” terms of political manipulation where the political and the government ruling class build a wall of “How dare you question our professional judgments and intents, which are pure”. We have sacrificed and are actually heroes with only objectivity and the public’s interests and truth and justice in mind in everything that we do. (Does anyone really believe that? Only the dumb and blind among us do)

    The counter of this is “Trump just does not act like a president”. Which in fact means that some people are uncomfortable with Trumps manly and sometimes raw and from the hip in your face style that actually gets HIS American agenda on the table and in play. Some people see Obama and his wordy say nothing Leftist speaking style and more seemingly amenable persona as to what a president should be like. A purely weak and juvenile even childish and paternal way to see a president. The difference is 180 degrees from reality and Americas interests. This is Trumps greatest challenge in communications, he must strive to find and strike a proper balance here.

    This particularly goes for Mueller and the instigator himself, Comey. The argument IMO can be strongly made and demonstrated in a court through evidence that there is at least a conflict of interest and at most a concerted effort to arrive at a preconceived judgment that favors the Democrats who are clearly at the center of this all.

    This is political warfare of the first order and through the application of time and irrefutable logic this must all be sorted out and properly concluded. And depending who Trump is successful in appointing to head the DOJ as the Attorney General will indicate what will happen to all of this.

    So Trump just needs to choose a Democrat to head the DOJ and all will be OK. (In other words, buckle up, there is turbulence ahead and for the foreseeable future because that is unlikely to happen.

  • wayne

    Chris–
    Highly recommend Jordan Peterson. He’s best taken completely in context, but you can generally find excerpted snippets that make the Point.
    Trump should always be taken seriously, just not literally.

    Rise of the Planet of the Apes (2011) –
    Caesar Speaks Scene
    https://youtu.be/JDbwEQG2cqI?t=72

  • wayne

    Chimpanzees and Dominance Hierarchies
    excerpted from: Why Freedom of Speech is Not Just Another Value – SAFS 2017
    Jordan B Peterson
    https://youtu.be/Kyu0ip4RAn0
    6:25

  • Cotour

    And where are Trumps greatest potentials and challenges in turning things to his favor in the eyes of a goodly segment of the voting Trump resistant public for the 2020 presidential election?

    As strange and disconnected as it may seem if I had to pick two subjects to concentrate on to accomplish it it would be.

    1. Prison reform, I.E. black / Hispanic incarceration, and, 2. Seriously addressing the pollution issue specifically the black plastic bags that retailers use in their business and the plastic in its many forms that is and is perceived as being in our and the worlds environment. The reports of micro plastics in the environment and the plastic gyre the size of Texas that exist in the middle of the Pacific ocean have deeply seeped into the subconscious of the American public.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/416558-criminal-justice-reform-faces-a-make-or-break-moment

    Why?

    #1 Prison reform will communicate to the black and Hispanic population of America that Trump is serious about them specifically and he will be able to further secure the voting trend away from their modern day slave masters, the Democrats, who are with justification under the impression that they own the black and Hispanic vote.

    #2 Throwing a monkey wrench into the Liberal / Leftist meme that Trump does not care about the environment will help him become more attractive to the middle of the road Democrats and Independents in America. I can not tell you how consistently uncomfortable mostly Democrats become when I go for a black plastic bag. I can detect their recoiling at the thought and many more and more now bring their own cloth bags from home, which I like. And I have investigated through conversation this subject.

    So changing these narratives in a serious way with real and substantive actions on these seemingly unconnected and not earth shattering, not nuclear weapons treaty level issues will IMO go along way to swing a large percentage of that other half of the population to a more rational political position. How do you switch that little resistant switch in the heads of the population from uncomfortable to more comfortable and willing to consider? By identifying small but very emotional, visceral issues that really connect with people’s core and acting in a big and genuine and demonstrable way on them. That’s how.

    Are you listening Trump administration?

  • D. Messier: I want to second your complaint about the one to three times, at most, that Trump encouraged bad behavior by either his supporters or other politicians, as you cite. He was wrong. It was inappropriate, and only worsened what is a bad situation.

    At the same time, we must recognize that, as a politician, he knew exactly what he was doing. He recognized that there was a deep frustration within the decent American community, not all conservative, about the bad behavior of the left in the past half century, for which there has never been any consequences. Leftist protesters can do practically anything, and never face significant or appropriate punishment. (Witness the many examples I have cited now for the past three years.)

    It is the refusal of you and the mainstream press to recognize this frustration that Trump is taking advantage of. Thus, his verbal attacks on CNN and the leftist media press these same buttons. It isn’t pretty, I wish he wouldn’t do it so crudely, but I also recognize that the public is sick of these smug, pretentious, biased, anti-American outlets, and Trump is merely pointing this out, in a blunt and vulgar manner. That what he says about the mainstream press is largely true is why his crudeness has not harmed him significantly in the polls.

    And please don’t throw Fox back at me. It as a news outlet is as bad. Cable news has become garbage, with little effort to actually do real reporting. You yourself should recognize this, as a reporter. Their coverage of space is pitiful, and repeatedly filled with the same kind of unforced errors the leftist media has exhibited repeatedly in its blind and hateful coverage of Trump.

    When the mainstream Democratic Party press finally begins to show even an inkling of self-awareness, and moves toward reform and change, then maybe our society can move forward. Until that happens we unfortunately are going to continue to see a decline in behavior, on both sides.

  • wayne

    Cotour–
    No time to address your points. I would say—we need to get away from fractionating everyone into their own little demographic identifiers.

    “Prison Reform,” that’s a bumper-sticker, not a Policy.
    If we mean– totally rewrite the Controlled Substances Act, that’s prison-reform. But, we are now engaged in a “War on Opiates,” and that will end badly, for all concerned. (we will just succeed in locking up an entirely different set of people, and when I eventually need opiates for pain, they aren’t going to give me any. “Too dangerous for you Wayne!”)

    Reference the “Environment,” —appealing to those people, is a lost cause. They think they can legislate the Sun. No amount of appeasement is good enough for the left.

  • Cotour

    Wayne:

    The big issues are what they are, they are not going anywhere, it is these core and emotional issues in a evenly split America where the difference will be made.

    Properly and rationally deal with them and you will prevail.

    As crazy as it may seem to you.

  • D. Messier

    You can’t have a president demonizing the press, calling it the enemy of the people, and then express shock when journalists are attacked. Especially in a heavily armed country. It raises the level of rage and anger and inspires things like this. This was an example of harassment. The next time it could be a shooting like what happened in the Annapolis newsroom. The Saudis may have concluded they could kill a journalist and that Trump would do little.

    People across the political spectrum have different opinions about media coverage they don’t like. So it puts all of us at risk. Everyone of us. Presidents need to show leadership. This is trolling.

  • D. Messier: The problem with your logic is that Trump is attacking the leftist press, but the reporter attacked here was from the “evil” conservative cable outlet Fox. By your logic, Trump’s language should have caused violence against CNN and other mainstream Democratic news sources. This really hasn’t happened, though I am sure you will want to cite the examples where Trump supporters chanted “CNN sucks” at CNN reporters.

    Meanwhile, I do not hear you expressing criticism of the far more numerous calls for violence against conservatives that have come from Democratic politicians.

    I personally am disgusted by them all. I have criticized Trump. However, the problem here has been made far worse by the apparent normalization of violence on the left against its opponents.

  • wayne

    “Tell the Truth or at Least Don’t Lie”
    https://youtu.be/zuIOOuiNxhE
    4:38

  • Cotour

    To my point on this subject, it is the advancement of technology that pumps all of this to the levels that it is pumped to and of course the Democrats desperate anti and un American death spiral and power grab before they are revealed for what they truly are.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/11/social-media-elitists-mobs-killed-dream-of-digitial-egalitarianism/

    The media is populated by powerful and now very wealthy elites who are using this technology to make people crazy and to push their agenda and world view. Journalists? There are now none.

    Most human brains are not practiced in and built for this. I have people asking and emailing me all day long, particularly today, looking for leadership and comforting.

  • Edward

    D. Messier wrote: “with Trump yelling fake news, calling the press the enemy of the people

    Actually, Trump called fake news the enemy of the people. The part of the press that gives us this fake news that took exception and declared that he meant the press in general — in another presentation of fake news. The fake-news part of the press recognized itself and used incorrect generalized words that included not only themselves but also the part of the press that is still honest. How disingenuous to redirect the accusation from the actual target in order to unfairly turn innocent parties into victims that must be defended — thus defending their own guilty selves in the process by pushing buttons that get results.

    The redefinition by the fake-news part of the press fooled most people and still does to this day. That is why so many people still claim that Trump demonized the press and not the fake news. Thus anyone the left dislikes who can successfully be called a Trump supporter can be seen as being guilty of supporting fascism or tyranny and thus being anti-press.

    This style of tactic also helps the left to rationalize chasing innocent reporters from public establishments.

    Perhaps it is only coincidence, but these kinds of tactics were used by the fascists (a left-wing movement) in the 1930s in order to gain power. It worked then, and perhaps the left thinks that it will work for them again. It may depend upon whether we have learned from history or whether it will repeat.

  • D. Messier

    Think of this as political physics: Trump’s actions result in an equal and opposite reaction from those who see Fox and other conservative news outlets as spreading lies and fake news. As the rhetoric and incidents escalate, the cycle takes on a life of its own and get completely out of control.

    This is why it’s so dangerous for a president to engage in this type of rhetoric. It encourages radical groups, and you end up with one of them driving a car into a crowd and killing a woman.

    Trump should cool the rhetoric and the attacks. It’s called leadership. It’s what presidents are supposed to do.

  • commodude

    D. Messier, nice that you conveniently ignore the countless instances of senior leaders from the left engaging in superheated rhetoric.

  • D. Messier

    A newsroom was shot up and people died in Annapolis because the attacker thought they printed fake news about him. A Washington Post columnist was murdered and chopped up in a Saudi consolate because they didn’t like his columns. And a fanatical Trump fan mailed pipe bombs to CNN and various political figures.

    Worse is to come if the current rhetoric doesn’t stop.

  • commodude

    D. Messier, nice twisting of the facts. The Annapolis incident was due to a long standing feud between the perp and the newspaper, and the perp is someone who likely woul dnot have had a firearm had NICS checks and HIPPA legislation allowed the entry of mental health treatment into the NICS system.

    The Saudi was engaged in more than writing columns, he was a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Your perversion of the truth speaks volumes about your intent, and the message spoken is far from positive.

  • D. Messier

    I don’t ignore excesses on the left. But no one on the left has the kind of power and media attention Trump has. Nor do they have as many rallies nor demonize the press the way he does. He’s the president. He’s incredibly influential in setting the tone and mood for the country. What he says makes his followers feel good. But it’s not good for the country and it’s not leadership, it’s trolling.

  • D. Messier

    Listen Commodus…everyone with a firearm and a complaint against a news outlet doesn’t go shooting up a newsroom.

    So the Saudi journalist deserved to be chopped up? You know they did that because they thought Trump wouldn’t do much about it.

  • commodude

    Yes, you are, your statement that no one has the power and media attention of Pres. Trump is an outright falsehood, as is the claim that the left doesn’t have rallies. They don’t demonize the press, as the press is complicit in their actions and openly promotes their agenda. Antifa, Move On, and other organizations, both loose and highly organized, are very powerful as shown by their actions, protests and on call protests.

    The plank on your eye is all too evident.

  • commodude

    Sir, I use the respect of using your correct nom de plume, please return the favor of at least attempting courtesy.

  • wayne

    Edward/Commodude:
    Good stuff.

    D. Messier:
    The alleged “Saudi journalist” was Muslim Brotherhood, up to his eyeballs, and as much of a “journalist” as I am.
    — The Saudi’s killed one of their own citizens, on Saudi soil. Sounds like an Saudi internal affair to me.
    What does DJT have to do with it?

    Look– we on my side of the aisle, didn’t start the fire, that was the Left. We’re just trying to put it out before it destroys our Nation.

    Sound of Social Justice
    Chris Ray Gun
    https://youtu.be/HahVcBoyGzk
    3:34

  • D. Messier: I don’t think anyone hear really disagrees with you strongly about Trump’s crude and harsh language. What gets everyone’s goat on the right is how you and everyone on the left want to put place all the blame on Trump. You are focused on him. You make it seem as if he is the sole cause of the problem.

    This however is false. The escalation and harsh language began a long time ago, and was started by the left.Its smug, pretentious, and know-it-all close-mindedness about many issues have fueled the frustration and anger on the right (which by the way has not been expressed in violence). It is why Trump continues to maintain his support.

    For example, I have a skeptical view about the theory that carbon dioxide will cause severe global warming in the near future. For the past decade anyone like me, no matter how well educated on the subject, has been smeared as a “denier,” likening me to anti-Semites who wish to deny the Holocaust. This is disgusting, uncivilized, and totally opposed to the principles of all science and western civilization.

    Yet, rather than tone things down, the smear tactics by the left have grown, as witnessed by the Kavanaugh hearings only a few short weeks ago. It is now routine that everyone who disagrees with the left is immediately slandered as a racist, bigot, and fascist, with no basis in fact. And you wonder why Trump is supported, and the right is angry? And you demand that he, and it appears, he alone tone down his rhetoric? Your bias is showing, and it discredits you.

  • wayne

    D. Messier:
    Worse is, yet to come, because the left won’t ever give it up, and normal American’s aren’t going to tolerate this endless creeping Statism forever.

    V for Vendetta: The Revolutionary Speech
    https://youtu.be/KKvvOFIHs4k?t=77

  • wayne

    #12 “We should judge our political system in comparison to other actual political systems, and not to hypothetical utopia’s”
    Jordan Peterson 12 Conservative Principle’s
    6-15-17
    https://youtu.be/_MyduTaCh18?t=631

  • wayne

    Seen this movie before, didn’t like it. Read the book as well, communist Russia, Nazi Germany, Imperial japan, Pol Pot, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Africa…..etc. etc. etc. it’s all ends in death camps & barbed wire. 100% of the time.
    We’ve run this experiment before– Statism on the far left or the far right, doesn’t work, won’t work, can’t work, and why are we going down this road again, and again?
    The Fake News is the mouthpiece of the radical egalitarian Mastermind’s who want to run your life, and enslave you. And that includes progressive mastermind republican rino’s.
    (Technocrats as Cotour referenced a few days ago.)

    The “New Left,” they all grew up and wormed their way into every aspect of the country with their creeping progressive Statism.

    If Trump is Hitler (I thought Bush was Hitler?) and that’s OK for CNN to blather endlessly in that respect, why is it if I call Obama “Stalin,” I’m a racist, hillbilly, with a gun ready to go postal at the drop of a hat, while I marry my sister?

    We’re all deplorables, dontchaknow, it’s for our own good, we are too stupid to see how brilliant the utopia of the Statist will be, if we’d just fall in line, shut up, and pay for all their twisted dreams.

    October 6, 1970
    Weather Underground announces “fall offensive”
    CBS News
    https://youtu.be/TfdJ3FiSva4
    10:01

    Bill Ayres (son of rich parent’s btw) became a tenured PhD “expert” in Early Childhood Education and influenced a generation of educators, “education experts,” and school text-books bought with tax money and fed to our children, to the extent they know nothing of our homeland, history, or culture (unless you have specifically taught them yourself.)

  • Cotour

    The difference here between how things are interpreted by the Left / full blood Lefitists (Not everyday democrats) and the Right is basically this as an example.

    The Right: Thomas Jefferson was one of the brilliant Founders of the country and authors of the Constitution and was a man of his time who constructed through his understanding of history and the nature of man related to governance and power something that would live far beyond his own life and in time free those enslaved by the times in which they lived.

    Left: Thomas Jefferson was a rapist and slave owner, a rich white man who constructed an oppressive method of governance along with his fellow rich white men of their day a permanent slave culture in which they, the white land owners and slave holders would always prevail.

    And there will be no middle ground on the subject of the foundation of either’s thought process and belief systems, and there in lies the problem in todays America. It is the convergence of 50 years of Leftist university indoctrination by the Left of the literal interpretation of history, the technology of the day and the youth that has been indoctrinated in those universities and are now of age and of a sufficient number to make the noise that they are today making.

    My question even if you were to interpret history in the most literal terms: If not our Constitutional system, then what system?

    The answer of course in reality in the real world is: There is none.

    And there will be no agreement between the Left and the Right on these foundation issues and this make for a day of extreme reckoning at some point in the future. (?)

  • wayne

    Cotour-
    Good stuff.
    (I date it back to the (so called) progressive era, so about 100 years of non-stop America hating and scheming. They had to breach our firewall for Income Tax without apportionment among the States (16th Amendment)and they destroyed the Senate with the 17th Amendment.

    Classical-Liberal Roots of Marxist Class Analysis
    Ralph Raico 1988
    https://youtu.be/lPLaKTbNKvA
    (46:09)

  • Cotour

    Yes, listening to a native American radio program this morning it reminded me of how important the real difference in interpretation actually is. We share a common language but are having two different conversations with very different interpretations of concepts, words and terms.

    I further offer this as evidence of my observation about what is on going within the Democrat party leadership.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/416836-insurgents-seek-female-challenger-to-replace-pelosi

    Pelosi who is a pure white bread Liberal Democrat is just a Liberal Democrat that has been posing as a full blood Leftist, and now that the real full blood Leftists are in sufficient numbers they are about to make a sacrificial white bread sandwich and Pelosi will be the symbolic political red meat in that sandwich that will be eaten to signal the full blood Lefts arrival in Washington power politics.

  • commodude

    Wayne,

    While I agree with you that the educational system is a cesspool, IMHO the major player is the denigration of US History by one of the scions of the leftists education system, Howard Zinn. He has done incredible damage to the narrative of US History taught to students, and once you control THAT narrative, you open a lot of doors. If the US is great, you bar much of the claptrap that is being foisted on students.

  • D. Messier

    Wayne, the journalist was a permanent U.S. resident and a prominent columnist. There is every reason to believe Trump’s anti-press rantings gave the Saudis reason to think they could murder him without repercussions. Trump’s initial response was weak. Didn’t become tougher until negative public reaction to it.

    We elect presidents to lead, not to troll. He makes his supporters happy but makes the world a more dangerous place.

  • commodude

    D. Messier,

    Why should there be repercussions from eliminating a terrorist supporter who is a Saudi citizen on Saudi soil?

  • D. Messier

    I don’t blame Trump for everything. But as president he occupies a unique position and has the power and responsibilty to help set the mood and tone for the country. That’s what makes his rhetoric so dangerous. And he keeps his supports in constant state of resentment, anger and fear. And that creates reactions on the other side.

    You bemoan that a reporter got attacked and people did nothing. That they laughed. Watch a Trump and see the same thing happen time after time. Trump sets a terrible example. You can’t then be shocked when people do it outside the confines of a rally and it’s not just against CNN.

  • D. Messier

    We have the rule of law. The US has laws to deal with supporters of terrorism whether they be citizens or permanent residents. Due process. Let the U.S. govt charge him and prove its case if that was indeed the case.

    Can’t believe I need to explain this concept here.

  • commodude

    D. Messier, again, Saudi Citizen on Saudi soil. Not a US citizen, not IN the US when the incident happened. US Law, therefore, has no bearing whatsoever on the case. If they did it in Alexandria, VA, there would be an issue, however, it was in a Saudi consulate in Turkey. We have no jurisdiction and no real national interest in the case other than he has a tangential relationship to the US media.

    In terms of international politics, it’s a non-issue. In terms of US Law, it’s beyond being a non-issue, and the only reason it IS an issue is that he was a member of the media establishment. He was NOT a journalist, he was an opinion columnist and a friend of terrorists.

  • Cotour

    The cost of working for the Saudi prince MBS.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6392951/Jamal-Khashoggis-accused-killers-face-death-penalty-Saudi-prosecutor-says.html

    Kashoggi was to be quietly disappeared in the Saudi embassy in Turkey and instead the Prince was made to look bad by his own death squad / abductor operators being fingered in an international scandal. And so they will be put to death and of course the Prince who we can make a sure bet ordered it all but will have his plausible deniability.

    This is pure strategy and we know there is no morality although the Prince in his new international roll must be made to appear that he does have some morality. Its best to not disappoint and embarrass the prince, could be bad for your health.

    That goes for people like Kashoggi and the princes own hit men.

  • wayne

    Commodude–
    Yes– Zinn, quintessential Enemy of the People. (in the alternate Universe, that’s what the arrest order would state.)

    D. Messier:
    Not trying to beat you up over this. Let’s do a mini thought-experiment.

    In your initial comment, just reverse the Nouns “Trump” and “press,” and see how that sounds…”You can’t have a Press demonizing the President, calling him the enemy of the people, and then express shock when journalists are attacked.”

    and… substitute Obama for DJT, in you last comment:
    “I don’t blame Obama for everything. But as president he occupies a unique position and has the power and responsibility to help set the mood and tone for the country. That’s what makes his rhetoric so dangerous. And he keeps his supports in constant state of resentment, anger and fear. And that creates reactions on the other side.”

    (Total tangent– on my NRA membership, I affirmed that I would not engage in violent action against the Government with my weapons.In contrast– the Left openly demands violent revolution. And the Fake Press actively conspires against the People. (There is nothing you could proffer, that would ever change my mind on that factoid.)

    Ref_ Kashogi:
    “Permanent Resident” does not equal Citizen. He was a Saudi citizen, on Saudi soil. We could possibly debate whether he “deserved” to die, but it’s a Saudi internal affair. (and, he was Muslim Brotherhood up to his eyeballs, just like Huma Abadan’s mom and dad, and 1/2 of Obama’s bestest pals.)
    He probably more rightly deserved to be rendered off shore to Gitmo.
    (and how did a Muslim Brother operative, ever get a permanent green card? Who made that decision?)

    Unless you have access to the NSA intercepts of the Saudi diplomatic communications’– you are merely speculating on their motivations/intentions.

  • wayne

    commodude-
    Excellent presentation of the facts.

  • Cotour

    Commodude:

    Your being much too logical and practical, this is about the appearance of morality as it relates to an up and coming future KING of a major world player country who has screwed up and has confused his new roll as some kind of modernizer and international player and his feudal even medieval tendency to just kill those of whom he owns when necessary.

    There are no legal technicalities to be argued here that count, this is about perception and image.

  • Cotour

    Wayne: This includes you. Legal technicalities that you site are a Western construct and really mean nothing to the Saudies other than they have to be perceived as being moral and “modern”.

  • commodude

    As an aside, I do want to give credit to the left for sanitizing Kashoggi’s wiki page. Now his connection with terrorists is a creation of Donald Trump jr.

    Well played.

  • wayne

    Jefferson Airplane –
    We Can Be Together
    https://youtu.be/cxA3Q96a8XE
    5:50

    “We are all outlaws in the eyes of America,
    In order to survive we steal, cheat, lie, forge, [fred,] hide, and deal.
    We are obscene lawless hideous dangerous dirty violent and young,
    But we should be together.
    Come on all you people standing around,
    Our life’s too fine to let it die.
    We can be together.

    All your private property is target for your enemy,
    And your enemy,
    Is we.
    We are forces of chaos and anarchy,
    Everything they say we are we are.
    And we are very,
    Proud of ourselves.

    Up against the wall
    Up against the wall [fred.]”

  • wayne

    Steppenwolf Monster
    https://youtu.be/CXP4tRUuqUY
    9:17

    “Once the religious, the hunted and weary,
    Chasing the promise of freedom and hope.
    Came to this country to build a new vision,
    Far from the reaches of Kingdom and Pope.”
    .
    .
    And though the past has its share of injustice,
    Kind was the spirit in many a way.
    But its protectors and friends have been sleeping,
    Now it’s a monster and will not obey.
    .
    .
    The cities have turned into jungles,
    And corruption is stranglin’ the land.
    The police force is watching the people,
    And the people just can’t understand….”

  • D. Messier

    There’s also extradiction. The Saudis could have sought extradition if he was guilty of all these things you claim.

    People with permanent residency have to deal with home country embassies from time to time. You don’t draw a line against kidnapping torture and dismemberment of a permanent resident regardless of where the embassy is located, then countires will think that acceptable.

    I can’t believe you’re arguing in support of an extra judicial kidnapping, torture and dismemberment of an immigrant who came to America to escape oppression by a autocratic regime without any due process or rule of law. Despicable. Utterly despicable.

  • commodude

    They didn’t have to extradite him, he walked onto Saudi soil.

    He wasn’t an immigrant, shouldn’t have HAD a green card due to his connections with terrorism, and the only reason you care about him is that the mouthpieces of the left have told you to care. The only reason THEY care is that it’s a means to rile up the rent a mobs against the President.

    If he didn’t work for the WA Post and wasn’t a a darling of the leftist sycophants, no one would care at all.

  • wayne

    Cotour-
    Point taken.

    In the Alternate Universe, we’d reach out and increase the air pressure over Saudi Arabia to 6psi, and turn the sand into trinitite. But that would of course, be wrong of me to think that.

    Minuteman III ICBM
    Launch animation
    https://youtu.be/S-V6MZlyCqE
    2:22

  • wayne

    commodude-
    Continued, good stuff.

    I’d wager the Saudi’s regularly kill their own Citizens. (let’s not even talk about the slave-state known as China.)
    Jeez– the commies killed over 100 million individual people, in the last century alone.

    D. Messier:

    I would proffer the speculation, you sir, are ideologically possessed. You sound like CNN/MSLSD/ABC/CBS/NBC/NYT/WP, etc.
    (Ho many times, did you vote for obama?)

    “I can’t believe you’re arguing in support of an extra judicial kidnapping, torture and dismemberment of an immigrant who came to America to escape oppression by a autocratic regime without any due process or rule of law. Despicable. Utterly despicable.”

    “Nobody Cares (If You’re Offended)”
    Chris Ray Gun 2015
    https://youtu.be/GGdszVe0PS4
    2:50

  • commodude

    Wayne, SERIOUS undercount. By all the guesstimates available, the Holodmor and the Cultural Revolution alone killed roughly 120-130 million.

    As I’ve stated before, Herr Schickelgruber was a piker. (not downplaying the holocaust, just a mathematical comparison, before I get accused of whataboutism)

  • D. Messier

    Wayne:

    Not the old whataboutism defense. Really?

    If u think this is bad, what about this….Then when the person provides a defense, the conversation shifts. At that point, it’s time for false equivalency where that other thing is just as bad or worse than the original topic.

    Nope. Sorry. Not going to indulge that.

  • commodude

    Pavlov strikes again. LOL

  • D. Messier

    I’m getting responses worthy of Commodus here. Kill. Kill. Kill. Ends justifies the means.

  • commodude

    Again, D. Messier, cease and desist twisting my name.

    I know the people who ring your bell don’t believe in civility, but Robert tries to maintain a civil site.

  • D. Messier: I must add my voice to commodude. He has asked you nicely to use his nickname correctly. I assumed the first time was a mistake. Now I know it was not. Please show some courtesy here.

  • D. Messier: No one here is justifying the Saudi’s behavior. It was wrong, totally, by our standards.

    However, I must note your selective outrage, similar to your selective outrage re Trump. You are outraged by this one case of Saudi injustice. You do not seem to have much outrage about the far worse and endless persecution of Christians throughout the Middle East. Nor does it seem to bother you much that a leftist tried to kill a bunch of Republican Congressmen while playing baseball.

    All of these acts are horrible. The difference between what has you outraged is telling however. The Saudi affair involved a pundit who wrote for the leftist Washington Post, and can be used to attack Trump. The other events did not involve the murder of any leftist allies, so it seems they don’t matter to you as much.

    With the Saudi murder and the Christian persecution, these are events outside the U.S., so we have a limited ability to influence events. This is the point that commodude and others have tried to make clear to you.

    What matters more, and can be directly influenced by each and every one of us, are things occurring in the U.S. That conservatives are being persecuted here with increasing frequency and violence is something that should outrage all Americans.

    Sadly, it does not.

  • D. Messier

    You’re offended by a name. I’m offended by your callous defense of an extra judicial murder. You’ve also made nasty comments about me.

  • D. Messier: commodude was quite blunt and somewhat harsh in his comments to you, but he never descended to name-calling. There is a difference.

  • D. Messier

    When did I defend the softball shootings? Or the religious persecution of anybody anywhere for any reason. More whataboutism…

    Your entire post comes off as selective outrage. Conservatives have never been in more control than they have the last two years, but their sense of being victimized seems higher than ever. You follow a president who tells you you’re victims and riles up your anger, fear and sense of victimhood. This is not healthy for you. Or the country. And it’s not leadership, it’s trolling.

  • commodude

    When did I cry victimhood? Never. You, however, show all signs of being easily manipulated into selective outrage by the puppetmasters in the media.

    As to control, the Republican (and I will not use the term conservative to in reference to the Republican party) “control” of the House and Senate are subject to innumerable fractures in the party, and are nowhere near the monolithic power bloc of , for instance, the Senate minority. The knife fighting in the backrooms of the Republican party is epic, and eliminates the value as a majority.

  • D. Messier

    Sorry won’t make any comparisons between him and murder-happy emperors any more sorry i mangled your name.

    Your comments were personally insulting to me who you don’t know and you’ve never met. And despite what Bob has claimed, you have defended the extra judicial kidnapping, torture and murder of a U.S. redident by an atrocious regime.

  • Phill O

    D. Messier, I take it you are referring to the previous administration. I refer you to the article https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/sixty-documented-as-false-anti-trump-news-stories/ for facts, not opinions.

    During this administration. I have watched the border patrol move to the border. Novel eh? That is where they should be, not at I10 or NM9. Live close to the border before making accusations.

  • Cotour

    Trump is still in the process of developing his political speak.

    Trump got where is by talking and acting in a certain way and it has been very successful for him in the public realm and that way needs to be adjusted to the political realm. Trump has come a long way in his refinement process. Keeping in mind that his public persona and speak is exactly why he was initially empowered by those that are sick and tired of the same old Politispeak BS.

    Does Trump troll? Yes, it is his natural state of battle.

    D. Messier is not incorrect but he is not recognizing the progress that is Trump as president, Trump is not a pure politician. And thank God for that.

    Must Trump raise his game and become a better president of all of the people? Yes, all presidents do, but we do not want what most all presidents become in pursuit of that ideal, a limp and ineffective noodle of a political tool who is used by those who manipulate him instead of an effective leader of men and nations.

    His back sliding on what might be trolling is both a blessing and a curse. I will take it.

  • D. Messier

    I was referring to Bob’s post. You never showed outrage. You seem rather pleased with this man’s death. Sad.

  • D. Messier

    The argument that we shouldn’t be upset about this because it happened abroad is specious. It’s tantamount to declaring regimes can do whatever the [deleted] they want to our residents as long as they don’t do it here. We can’t protect these people abroad, but we can make countries pay a price for these acts and dissuade them from doing it again.

    He didn’t deserve a green card, you say? Involved with terrorists, you claim? There are U.S. laws for prosecuting terrorists, expelling them and extradicting them to other nations. We shouldn’t sink to the level of Saudis by ignoring due process and cheering extra judicial murder.

  • wayne

    “extra judicial murder”
    –by whose standards, and under what paradigm?

    commodude-
    continued, good stuff.

    D. Messier;
    I of course, don’t know you and I’m trying not to attack you personally, just to be clear.
    I do think your positions and defense thereof, smacks a bit too much of the old canard’s and Party Line.

  • wayne

    JB Peterson:
    Foreword to The Gulag Archipelago: 50th Anniversary
    October 31, 2018
    https://youtu.be/XJwEBizQgYI
    47:30

  • D. Messier: I do not allow obscenity on Behind the Black. See this post: No obscenities on Behind the Black

    As this is your first offense, I have merely deleted the curse word from your comment. A second violation will cause you to be suspended for a week. Third time, and you will be banned.

    As I say at the above post,

    The rest of the world might want to wallow in barbarism and ill behavior, but it will not happen here. This is my workplace. If you want to participate in the conversation on Behind the Black, I expect you to act like a civilized adult. If you can’t abide by these rules, then go somewhere else.

  • Cotour

    Kashoggis murder is seen as an internal Saudi matter, its like viewing a mob murder in the streets of New York.

    Are you D. Messier outraged when such an event happens?

    The answer is no, you see it in the context of the The mob doing business. Do we sanction it? No.

    We do not see it in the same way as if the Saudis were to take out an American journalist who visited the Saudi embassy who spoke against the Prince. Now that would be a very, very different perspective and the actions and consequences would be swift and far reaching, and that is the way things should be.

    So D. Messier you are in many ways comparing apples and oranges, as raw and inhumane as that sounds.

  • Commodude

    Due process implies protection under US law which he was not entitled to. No one is cheering what happened, however, the degree of false outrage about the elimination of a terrorist sympathizer and mouthpiece is beyond ludicrous.

  • wayne

    Commodude:
    great stuff.

    ————-
    Mark Levin: Obama’s Israel hating friends
    2014
    https://youtu.be/7EbyaK-ODuk
    21:17
    ————-

    Obama= Marxist jew hater.
    Hitler: = National Socialist jew-hater.
    Stalin: International Socialist jew hater.
    Trump: daughter/son-in-law/grandchild = jewish

    One of these things is not like the other.

  • wayne

    Man In the High Castle
    “We Pledge Allegiance…”
    https://youtu.be/H4UHqFoB_5k?t=58
    2:44

  • D. Messier

    Sorry, I won’t mangle anyone’s name or use any expletives from now on.

    Now, let’s return to the subject at hand: why kidnapping, torturing, and cutting up a man while he’s still alive is somehow OK. I suppose that is sufficiently inoffensive. Not so much inhumane as authoritarian.

    Or more specifically, why anyone should be surprised that reporters are being harassed while others laugh and do nothing in a country where Trump has been doing this at virtually every rally he’s had for the past three years. How could that possible happen?

  • Cotour

    THE COMPLETE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT TRUMP AND THE KASHOGGI SITUATION
    (Are you not paying attention and if you are are you just willfully ignoring the answers because you just want to go on and on about your points because you are unable to understand the answers?)

    Two Reposts:

    1. Trump is still in the process of developing his political speak.

    Trump got where is by talking and acting in a certain way and it has been very successful for him in the public realm and that way needs to be adjusted to the political realm. Trump has come a long way in his refinement process. Keeping in mind that his public persona and speak is exactly why he was initially empowered by those that are sick and tired of the same old Politispeak BS.

    Does Trump troll? Yes, it is his natural state of battle.

    D. Messier is not incorrect but he is not recognizing the progress that is Trump as president, Trump is not a pure politician. And thank God for that.

    Must Trump raise his game and become a better president of all of the people? Yes, all presidents do, but we do not want what most all presidents become in pursuit of that ideal, a limp and ineffective noodle of a political tool who is used by those who manipulate him instead of an effective leader of men and nations.

    His back sliding on what might be trolling is both a blessing and a curse. I will take it.

    2. Kashoggis murder is seen as an internal Saudi matter, its like viewing a mob murder in the streets of New York.

    Are you D. Messier outraged when such an event happens?

    The answer is no, you see it in the context of the The mob doing business. Do we sanction it? No.

    We do not see it in the same way as if the Saudis were to take out an American journalist who visited the Saudi embassy who spoke against the Prince. Now that would be a very, very different perspective and the actions and consequences would be swift and far reaching, and that is the way things should be.

    So D. Messier you are in many ways comparing apples and oranges, as raw and inhumane as that sounds.

  • D. Messier

    Maybe there will be hearings in the House on this case. I expect the White House to claim that neither Jared (the crown prince’s bff) nor anyone in trump admin had any idea of what was about to go down. Then they will fight like you know what against releasing any docs that might contradict the claim.

  • Cotour

    You are now making up news.

    There is nothing that I have seen, nor that you have seen that indicates what you are suggesting, that Trump or his own Prince had full knowledge of Kashoggis murder plot and sanctioned it. (Did you feel the same way when Obama chose Muslim Hell fire missile targets? )

    You are now testifying about something that you can have no information about. This is what you see all day long in the MSM, testiquestioning which translates into making a statement that is the desired story line as you ask your question. Jim Accosta, is this really you? Because that is exactly what you are doing.

  • Cotour

    What will you say if / when the evidence comes out that clearly demonstrates that the FBI and the DOJ and the Obama administration was conducting an organized campaign to usurp private citizens civil rights and then the attempted coup of a duly elected president?

    Will you be upset about that as much as this Kashoggi situation? Probably not, you probably will not care one wit about it.

    I present you with what I am fairly confident are actual facts, but you will still be wishing for your MBS / Trump conspiracy to take out Kashoggi, which like I have pointed out is more like an internal Saudi mob hit, which you would care not much about if you properly saw it as such, which is more correct.

    It is morally horrific and unacceptable, but it is what it is.

  • Edward

    In this dystopian story, we have a space reporter toeing the Democrat Party line, ignoring the Democratic Party’s call for the very bad behavior that is reported, and complaining about the bad example presented by the lifelong liberal Democrat who treasonously (for the Democrat Party) ran as a Republican and had the audacity to win – and worse to fix America somewhat after the previous president started a fundamental transformation away from a great nation with liberty and justice for all to a tyranny that permits injustices against non-Democrats.

    If we hadn’t seen it in real life, would we have believed the story? Probably not a decade ago.

  • Phill O

    Edward Spot On!

  • D. Messier

    Trump is a pathological liar. He’s also like 72 years old. It is cute how you can make his pathologies into virtues but somehow expect him to change at this age.

    No need to repost your answers. I don’t accept them. They’re terrible. I could spend entire days going down the rat hole where your logical leads.

    As for evidence in this case, how can you nobody knew in advance? Have you seen the evidence?

  • wayne

    Wow– an Ageist!

    Nancy Pelosi- 78
    Diane Feinstein-85
    Bernie The Red -77
    1/2048th Jeep-Cherokee lady-69
    Joe Biden-75
    Ruth Buzzie Ginsburg-85

  • wayne

    Cotour– I’ll back you. (you’re my 80% ally, not my 20% enemy.)

    D. Messier:

    Let’s play with some text real quick.

    “Hillary is a pathological liar. She’s also like 71 years old. It is cute how you can make her pathologies into virtues but somehow expect her to change at this age.”
    .
    .
    “Or more specifically, why anyone should be surprised that Police Officers are being harassed while others laugh and do nothing in a country where Obama has been attacking the Police at virtually every rally he’s had for the past 12 years. How could that possible happen?”

    (I know exactly how I sound.) Do you have any inkling as to how you sound, to some of us?

  • wodun

    Trump doesn’t lie any more than any other politician. Journalists should be critical of him. What journalists shouldn’t do is deliberately crraft deceits to falsely portray events. If they didn’t do that, Trump wouldn’t be upset with them and call them out. The same goes with Trump’s pugnacious attitude toward the Democrats. If the Democrats stopped acting like a bunch of jerks calling everyone NAZI Racists while inflicting mob violence on everyone, Trump wouldn’t have to respond in a combative manner. Democrats always want their victims to just shut up and take the abuse.

    We should be upset of the murder of the Saudi guy. There was no due process or formal legal proceedings. But it isn’t Trump’s fault what happened. And what are we supposed to do? Saudi Arabia, like all the other Middle East countries, have sets of laws and a culture that is at odds with those of the United States. In the real world, we still have to deal with these countries for a variety of reasons. No one called on Obama to sever ties with Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, or any other country for the brutal way they treat gays, Christians, or political dissidents.

    Obama himself engaged in the targeted assassination of American citizens abroad without due process, even assassinating a child. Obama spied on journalists and their families. He spied on congress. He spied on his domestic political enemies and used government agencies to attack them. He used government agencies to threaten business so that they had to attack Democrat’s enemies or be illegally punished by government agencies. He even organized mobs to attack civilians in the street who dared protest against him. Are Democrats going to sever ties with Obama?

    why anyone should be surprised that reporters are being harassed while others laugh and do nothing in a country where Trump has been doing this at virtually every rally he’s had for the past three years.

    Saying that CNN sucks or someone flipping a CNN crew the bird are orders of magnitude more civil than CNN and the Democrats have treated people they disagree with. You need to get out of your Twitter bubble and see what has been going on around the country for the last three years. You are a smart person and its time to engage your brain, check your assumptions, and learn how to empathize with people whether or not you end up agreeing with them.

  • Col Beausabre

    In a separate story, but with bearing on this case

    “Neo-Nazi Harassment Not Protected by First Amendment, Judge Rules” – NYT

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/neo-nazi-harassment-not-protected-by-first-amendment-judge-rules/ar-BBPL0wI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPDHP17

    ‘ His lawyer, Marc Randazza, said that Judge Christensen’s decision was dangerous for free speech.

    “The rule we lay down for the Nazi applies equally to the civil rights activist,” Mr. Randazza said in a statement. “And that ruling, if it stands, is not going to be good for anyone who engages in common outrage culture. Maybe that’s a good thing, but I think not.” ‘

    Yes, there’s an old saying – “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander”

    Still, all Americans of whatever political persuasion should be concerned as the First Amendment is our most basic right – and if one part of the Bill of Rights isn’t sacred, what part is? I am a free speech bigot (I put my money where my mouth is through 25 years service protecting the Constitution (see the oath of office of the US military)) – if you have a problem with what is said fight it with facts and logic rather than trying to silence the speaker.

  • commodude

    Death threats, gunshots left on answering machines and doxxing aren’t free speech, they’re harassment and making terroristic threats. The First Amendment doesn’t cover criminal action.

    Only 21 years in uniform, but you can’t fight ignorance and direct threats against an individual with facts and logic. You can preach white supremacy all day long and I’ll just sit on the side and laugh, the line is crossed when you start threatening individuals directly.

  • Phill O

    Question: Does the first amendment sanction harassment? I think not and reviewing the link by Col, I am agreement with the judge.

    In fact, a person falsely accused “must” have the right to sue their accuser if free speech is to be maintained. The false stories reporters have perpetrated against the current administration should be subject for liable legal action. This is the only way truth can be preserved. Otherwise, you have the democrat party as it currently is. Fact checking MUST have consequences, not just in public opinion! (IMHO)

  • Cotour

    D. Messier:

    “Trump is a pathagical liar.”

    President D.J. Trump in the context of him being an empowered politician, specifically in the context of the president of the United States, is the most honest and genuine president / politician probably in American history. The only other president that was probably at a higher level was George Washington. He just says things that many do not want to hear.

    ALL empowered politicians are by definition liars and are required to lie. (See Strategy Over Morality, S.O.M.)

    Reading your positions you are not able to be at all objective, you are biased, you are partisan, you are unable to recognize anything that Trump has accomplished as being “good” or better than what existed previously. And that is unsustainable. When Wayne writes that he supports 80% of my positions, that is reasonable. Your inability to recognize any positive results at all regarding Trump is unreasonable (Even though you personally despise him). I deal with people like you every day, both here and in person and so I ask you to answer the following questions to demonstrate my point about you being unreasonable and your positions are irrational and unsustainable.

    1. Do you believe in totally open borders where the American government stands down on who can come here and who can not essentially surrendering American sovereignty? (I.E. the 10 thousand people that are storming the border now in mass, not to mention the thousands seeping across weekly)

    2. Did you agree with president Obama when he stated as president “You didn’t build that!” when he was talking about America and capitalism? (Obama sees government as being primary, the people are a function of it and not the other way around)

    3. Did you agree with president Obama when he said “America leads from behind!” ?

    4. Would you say that Cater Page’s civil rights were violated by the DOJ and the FBI as they fabricated a reason to find their way into the Trump campaign in order to spy on it? (The coming law suit and massive financial settlement with carter Page that the government and the DNC will come to may be an indicator for you)

    You answer these four questions and we will all better understand who and what you are. Have at it, if you dare.

  • wayne

    Phill–

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    We have libel, slander, and battery laws—other than that, you have the right to say anything you want. (up until now)

  • wayne

    On the Vital Necessity of Free Speech
    Jordan Peterson/Montreal Press Ckub
    8-20-18
    https://youtu.be/EuNeqawPuuY
    30:51

    The Montreal Press Club marked the occasion of its 70th anniversary in 2018 by initiating a “Freedom Award” to mark the accomplishments of a single exceptionally courageous individual in the world of journalism. They chose as their first recipient Saudi blogger Raif Badawi. I delivered this lecture on free speech on the occasion of the acceptance of the Press Club award by Raif Badawi’s wife, Ensaf Haidar, April 26/2018 .”

  • wayne

    Peace Sells (But Who’s Buying)
    Megadeth
    https://youtu.be/JS4eJRQOCzs
    4:05

  • Cotour

    PS: Anyone, please feel free to answer those four questions, I think the answers might be interesting as they are compared to D. Messier’s. (If he dares to answer them that is)

    D. Messeir, how did you feel about and interpret this picture of president Obama?

    https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.dfdEGAEjHAjye7UoMmubgQHaE7&pid=15.1&P=0&w=243&h=163

    Makes you proud? Gives you concern? Is a very telling indicator about what Obama believes? Choose one.

  • Phill O

    Cotour
    1 No
    2 No
    3 No
    4 Yes

    Obviously

  • Cotour

    Phill O:

    Lets make the impression of that Obama photo the 5th question. What does that picture say to you? What will it say to D. Messier?

    D. Messier:

    Feel free to make up your own four or five questions, I would be happy to answer them, lets see just how far apart out world and political views are.

  • wayne

    Victor Davis Hanson –
    “Ripples of Battle”
    10-27-03
    https://youtu.be/PDeJS9Qnbj4
    1:14:52

    The book examined the lasting impressions of war on families, society, and future military thinking through an analysis of three battles: Okinawa, fought between the United States and Japan in 1945; Shiloh, between Union and Confederate forces in the U.S. Civil War in 1862; and Delium, fought between the Athenians and the Boeotians during the Peloponnesian War in 424 B.C.

  • Phill O

    Cotour, Not sure of what the picture depicts and the context it was taken. What is the significance of the drawing on the wall. If everyone except one has his hand on heart, what does it say of the lone dissident.

  • Cotour

    It is a picture of Obama in Cuba paying homage to his philosophical political icon, Che Guevara.

    “Ernesto “Che” Guevara was an Argentine Marxist revolutionary, physician, author, guerrilla leader, diplomat and military theorist. ”

    The deliberate and purposeful imagery says it all, and people argue that Obama does not follow the Marxist path. Mr. Obama himself tells them what he believes, and still they argue with he himself. Self delusion is strong.

  • D. Messier

    The CIA has concluded the crown prince ordered the murder:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/cia-concludes-saudi-crown-prince-ordered-jamal-khashoggis-assassination/2018/11/16/98c89fe6-e9b2-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?noredirect=on#click=https://t.co/pLRxXyBN3D

    Whether US knew about it in advance remains to be seen.

    Trump is also trying to appease the crown prince and Erdogan — two autocrats — in the murder of one U.S resident by turning over another to be jailed, tortured and possibly killed:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna933996

    This is not a new extradition request. Justice Dept already looked into Turkey’s claims and found no reason to deport him.

    The only reason is Trump trying to get crown prince off the hook with Turkey over the murder. That sets a very bad precedent for those seeking asylum from autocratic regimes.

    Trump is an incredible liar. He had hit 5,000 false or misleading statement by early September:

    https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/2018/09/13/president-trump-has-made-more-than-false-or-misleading-claims/

  • D. Messier

    George Washington was a great president. There are few ways the Trump compares with him in any positive ways. The comparison is preposterous. Trump lies every day about nearly every thing.

  • D. Messier

    There’s evidence the crown prince ordered the killing:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/cia-concludes-saudi-crown-prince-ordered-jamal-khashoggis-assassination/2018/11/16/98c89fe6-e9b2-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b78083baea61&__twitter_impression=true

    Trump now wants to make things worse:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna933996

    To relieve pressure from turkey on murderous crown prince for murder of one US resident, turn over another to possibly meet same fate.

    Extradition has to be based on law. The Justice Dept already reviewed turkey’s evidence and found no reason to expell him.

  • wayne

    “If you like your Doctor, you can keep your Doctor.”

  • Cotour

    You don’t get it, you are applying pedestrian realm rules to Political realm situations.

    They are not equal.

    You are a good moral person that inhabits the pedestrian realm. Figure it out.

  • Edward

    In the continuation of this dystopian story (with luck, the final act), the space reporter continues to distract from the story opening with hopes of diverting attention away from the Democratic Party’s call for bad behavior, hoping beyond hope that the events he discusses in his distraction can be blamed on the Republican Party.

    Will he ever admit that the actions of his party’s leaders and followers are reprehensible or continue with his moral relativism?

    Will Trump ultimately be blamed for another country’s actions?

    Will the First Amendment be expanded so that bad behavior by Democrats becomes acceptable and speech by Republicans, conservatives, and Fox reporters is banned?

    And … what about Naomi?

    Tune in tomorrow for the next thrilling episode of:
    Fox (reporter) Chase!

  • Cotour

    And here the CIA “Helps” the president by revealing the “truth”. Is the CIA really in the business of the truth? No, not really. So we must ask what they are really up to here.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/saudi-crown-prince-ordered-khashoggi-s-assassination-cia-20181117-p50gn3.html

    Like have said before, I have no doubt that the Prince probably ordered his people to take out Kashoggi, and because they did so but in the process created a negative image perception for MBS some on them will pay with their lives. (Probably not the Princes favorite “Mechanics”, maybe there will be body doubles or stand ins that will in fact be sacrificed so that the Prince can save face and maintain some level of plausible deniability for political purposes.

    I point out again, the closest analogy to the Kashoggi killing is a mob family hit. Do we condone it? No.

  • Cotour

    Or the process of taking out this particular Prince is underway because he has now become a liability? Maybe this is what the CIA is in fact up to by telling the “truth”?

    I suspect that the Prince because he is not yet the King and has screwed up royally (pun intended) is vulnerable himself. Failing the test of leadership and revealing yourself to be a Fredo type leader and things might get hot and dangerous very quickly for the Prince.

    Time will tell the tale.

  • wodun

    D. Messier

    There’s evidence the crown prince ordered the killing:

    And?

    This type of behavior is nothing new for them. Turkey is just as bad. Obama put up with both of these countries and what those countries did was not Obama’s fault.

    What is Trump supposed to do about it? Why is Trump taking action something required when past Presidents were not required?

    Obama was very friendly toward Erdogan no matter who he killed, imprisoned, or how far he pulled Turkey toward Islamic Theocracy. Obama helped install the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt who then murdered Christians and burned down their homes and churches. When Egypt overthrew the Islamic dictators, Obama sided with the dictators. But you know what? Even though Obama was upset that the Islamic dictators were removed, we still maintained a relationship with Egypt.

    What is the point of badgering Trump into severing ties with Saudi Arabia other than trying to torpedo the precarious alliances we have in the Middle East? Democrats want to make a bad situation worse and Trump shouldn’t listen to them. Democrats don’t have anyone’s best interests in mind here, not even journalists.

  • D. Messier

    Wodun i was responding to someone earlier claiming there was no evidence crown prince ordered murder.

    Your ranting about Obama is classic whataboutism…

    Edward i criticized attack on Fox journalist. My point was that nobody should be surprised these things happen in a country whose leader demonizes the press almost daily. Attacking journalists while a crowd laughs and mocks them is a Trump rally staple.

    I also pointed out that crown prince probably thought he could braven kill a regime critics without serious reprocussions because of Trump’s attacks on journalists. Trump is now trying to bail the prince out of this mess by turning over a U.S. resident to Turkey where he could meet the same fate.

    Words matter. Actions matter. This shows how Trump’s awful rhetoric has deadly consequences.

  • commodude

    D. Messier,

    Your constant references to whataboutism are nothing short of hilarious attempts to divert the discussion. Historical comparisons are valid means of comparing actions, and as they show one of your heroes in a negative light you us a created term bandied about by those with no argument whatsoever save deflection.

  • wayne

    commodude-
    continued, excellent stuff!

    In Our Hands, Part 1:
    “How We Got, What We Have” (1950)
    https://youtu.be/gKwl0JynzQs
    21:01

  • wayne

    D. Messier,

    Q– why is it when people slam Obama and communism, they are morally bad, raving, lunatics. But when you slam Trump, you are some sort of reasoned intellectual, above the fray, detached, objective, and totally logical.

    I’d wager you don’t believe we are “just mistaken,” but rather “we are all morally corrupt and therefore our opinions don’t count.” (I just don’t know, seriously.)

    I have a Master’s Degree (Behavioral Psychology). My late wife had a Master’s Degree (Geology) and my daughter & son-in-law both have PhD’s in Pharmaceutical Research & Discovery. (and I sent my daughter to Hillsdale College.) I’ve helped more ‘poor, afflicted, downtrodden, and dispossessed people,’ than I can even count or remember. (Private sector/public-sector/non-profit.)
    Pretty much an atheist, but if I was ever called to account for my entire-life’s work? I’d have a credit balance. (not braggin’, just sayin’.)
    I pay my outrageous taxes, I mow my lawn, and I try to mind my own darn business and be a good Citizen to my fellow man.
    Bottom line is; there are a whole lot of people who hate all this Marxist crap, who hate Obama, Pelosi, Bernie, etc., etc., and the democrat-party, and everything that has been imposed upon us for 8 years. We played by the rules, we didn’t riot in the streets, and now Obama is gone, but he won’t shut up, and his ilk won’t stop attacking Trump, or stop their America-Hating.
    It’s what they do, it’s who they are, and they never stop. They are Terminator’s, the enemy of the people.
    “He wasn’t my 1st choice,” but wasn’t HRC, and that’s all I wanted.

  • Cotour

    D. Messier:

    I from the beginning assumed that the Price was behind the operation (Who else would it be?) that to me is not in question, the Saudis are not a Democracy it is a Kingdom, a family, just like the Mafia. The Prince “owned” Kashoggi and Kashoggi apparently spoke against the Prince. Bad move.

    D. Messier: “The argument that we shouldn’t be upset about this because it happened abroad is specious. It’s tantamount to declaring regimes can do whatever the [deleted] they want to our residents as long as they don’t do it here. We can’t protect these people abroad, but we can make countries pay a price for these acts and dissuade them from doing it again.”

    (These kinds of regimes do do what ever they want and I site the Chinese who today have millions of their own people in “retraining camps” and also what are referred to as “Black” camps I believe, thats where you go in and I assume are used as slave labor but you do not come out. That is happening today, as we type. Do you hear the U.N. saying anything about it? Do we condone it? NO.)

    The Prince may have assumed that he had a pass in this “Minor” issue of eliminating Kashoggi, he may have assumed that Trump would not be too upset about it and just see it as the Prince taking care of family business and I doubt whether the Prince cleared it with Trump, as you suggest. All of that may be true but it was clearly a bad move on the part of the Prince who did not work out the down side. He may have been better off with Kashoggi being hit by a car or accidently falling out of his hotel window. But the Prince chose to show his power and dominance both to Kashoggi and those who might think to defy the Prince in the future. Hits like this serve many purposes for a mob boss. Do we condone them? NO.

    There are two terms here that are relevant:

    1. You correctly use the word “resident’, Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen who lived in the West sometimes. And a Saudi citizen who lives in the West and thinks that he can forget to think in his Eastern mind set when writing against the Prince and push too hard back on the royal family may be making a mistake. Was Kashoggi brave or stupid?

    2. The word “Prince”. The word Prince alone is the most telling distinction here, Saudi Arabia IS A KINGDOM. The King and his son the Crown Prince own everything. Have you never watched “King of thrones”. I have never watched an episode but understand it perfectly based on what is laid out in this continuing conversation about MBS and his actions. Do we condone it? NO.

    So has the existence of Trump as the president and him being Trumpian a factor in the Princes moves? Possibly. But its the Prince not properly understanding the Western political repercussions over and above anything that he thinks Trump thinks or does not think. Trump is not a fellow royal, he is not a dictator, he is not a Marxist, he is the president of a Democratic Republic and whether Trumps base sympathies are actually with the prince and his actions, it just does not matter as much as you think it does. The Prince screwed up.

    Is it incumbent on Trump to raise his game, to become more than he is in his position as the president? Absolutely, but that is an on going process as he finds the proper balance between his in your face pedestrian style and a George Washington type paternal image of balance in all things related to political power.

    And the issue of the press and Trump. The press has gone way, way beyond them just having personal political positions that they bring to their work and objectively suppress, the press is now a fully participating political arm of the “Progressive” Democrat party.

    https://youtu.be/b4qGtEiEh4A

    And that is to be recognized and not to be argued about.

  • D. Messier

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-concludes-saudi-journalist-was-killed-on-the-crown-princes-order-1542412388

    Interesting that some people seem to blame journalist for being stupid enough to walk onto Saudi territory.

    This story says the Saudi ambassador to US — the crown prince’s brother — assured him of his safety at both embassy and even traveling back home.

    For those who insist on blaming the victim and downplaying his residency status here I would recommend you try to explain your reasoning to his two children who are U.S. citizens.

  • wodun

    D. Messier

    Wodun i was responding to someone earlier claiming there was no evidence crown prince ordered murder.

    Your ranting about Obama is classic whataboutism…

    Whataboutism is just a lame excuse to avoid relevant information that is problematic to your argument.

    Russia has assassinated many people around the world, in some rather horrific ways to boot. Why do we still let them partner with us on the ISS?

    That people have yelled to reporters that CNN sucks isn’t a good reason for Democrats to engage in violent mobs directed at media figures, politicians, and civilians.

    All of the political violence we have seen over the last 3 years has been because of Democrats. Democrats have organized and funded their militant activists to engage in violence and the extremely small number of violent acts have been a reaction to the violence of Democrats.

    Want to stop the violence? The first place to take action is with the Democrat party. Trump isn’t the reason why Democrats are violent. Violence would have been their strategy no matter what Republican won the election and they have over a hundred year track record of using violence to influence politics.

    Want Trump to stop criticizing certain media outlets as fake news? All they have to do is offer honest journalism instead of yellow journolism. Don’t forget, Fake News was an attack that the DNC media first used against Trump. But they were so dishonest in their reporting that he was able to reverse the term and make it stick to them.

    Want people to be civil? Democrats need to act civil first. For decades Democrats have acted this way and now people are tired of Democrats dehumanizing attacks. You might think that endlessly calling people racist NAZI is a great way to treat people. But it turns out that those attacks are used against people who are neither racist nor NAZI. Isn’t it rather insulting? Those are serious claims to make about people. Democrats use the most vile insults all the time and not just their randos on the internet, their elected leaders use the same language.

    Just the other day, a Kamala Harris said ICE was like the KKK. Does she know how many hispanics work for ICE? Is this over the top rhetoric from Democrats 2020 front runner civil dialog?

    A good exercise for you, is to see if you can restate a Trump supporter’s views on an issue from their point of view rather than your own. Do you possess the empathy and logical understanding to accomplish that or would you fall back on the bigoted stereotypes the Democrat party inculcates in their followers?

  • Cotour

    And now with the CIA assigning culpability to the Prince I assume that now the Prince is in jeopardy of himself being taken out in some manner. (How many of his fellow Princes that he locked up and possibly tortured and relived them a of billions of dollars who like to see MBS go? )

    The powers that be in both the West and the East may now see the prince as an extreme liability and is an encumbrance to the plans that have been being laid out. Thats a lot of weight that now may exist against just one Prince, when there are so many more of them that might better fit the plans.

  • Cotour

    D Messier:

    You are a good and moral person who lives within the security of a country where really what we are talking about does not really exist. You are applying rules to people who do not play by the rules that you apply to them.

    Kashoggi a freedom fighter or a traitor to the King and his Crown prince? Depends on what country you are sitting and its best to understand that if you are going to poke the Royal tiger. Do we condone it? NO.

    Your playing one game and they are playing another and you still insist that they play by your rules but they never will. They may do some things that politically appear that they are as civilized as you insist they be, but that is just a facade to facilitate some financial benefit of some fort. But make no mistake their core is far, far from being transformed as you require.

    Saudi Arabia is essentially an Eastern medieval society attempting to operate in a modern Western dominated world and they are faking it at best. Your insistence that they behave like they were fully modern Western societies is unrealistic. Do we condone it? NO.

    The Prince (And Trump) will pay a price for his feudal brutality, we just do not know at this point how much.

    And we as Pedestrian realm Americans condone none of it, but we in the form of our political leaders and in the political realm do it in other more “acceptable” ways. Let us not be naive.

  • wayne

    DS-9
    Garak- The boy who cried Wolf
    https://youtu.be/cl66ilQCCNs
    1:17

  • Edward

    D. Messier,
    You wrote: “Edward i criticized attack on Fox journalist.

    Only in the context of moral relativism, so the answer to the “tune in tomorrow” question is that you will continue with your moral relativism. I had already guessed that, because you do not have any other argument to make.

    Words matter. Actions matter.

    But you do not criticize the Democratic Party leaders’ words, and you only criticize their follower’s actions in the context of moral relativism, and you attempt to distract from the subject by attempting to blame the actions of foreign nations on Trump. Even this response of yours to me continued this tactic of yours.

    Your attempted distraction is irrelevant to the topic of the post, and your moral relativism softens your criticism to meaninglessness. If you had not intended to soften your criticism, then you would not have started the distraction, and you certainly would not be continuing it, assuming you realized you had made a mistake by starting it.

    The Democrat leaders have fundamentally transformed this country into a dystopian society in which the adversaries of those leaders are unable to look forward to any harassment-free time. Their adversaries live in fear that they may be harassed or shot at at any time and at any place: at home, at work, or at play. But according to you, the worst part is that Trump is responsible for a Saudi prince ordering an assassination, because Trump calls out fake news* when it rears its ugly head and misleads or outright lies to the American people. What a leap it takes to come to that conclusion (the term is non sequitur).

    Your argument cannot stand up to the facts and logic of the situation, so you deflect and distract in order to pretend moral relativistic victory where none exists.

    * Fake news, not journalists; the conclusion of yours that he criticizes journalists rather than fake news is the point I made before ( https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/fox-reporter-threatened-chased-from-bar/#comment-1061321 ) but that you continue to ignore, because it not only is contrary to your belief system but also invalidates your non sequitur Saudi argument.

    By your moral relativism standards, Bernie Sanders should be blamed for several Congressmen being shot at and being shot. However, Sanders — like Trump — made no suggestion or any rhetoric to advocate such behavior or to suggest that such behavior was tolerable. Sanders is not responsible for the horrific behavior of that follower of his, and neither is Trump responsible for the horrific behavior of any Saudi princes. But Democrat leaders actually publicly repeatedly advocated for the harassment of those they disagree with, and that is the point of Robert’s post. “They’re coming for you next,” meaning that they are coming for those they disagree with, and in a harassing, threatening, or violent way that is expressly intended to make their adversaries feel fearful and to chase them from places where they should feel comfortable and safe.

    What a fundamental transformation that this country has undergone, in the past ten years and three months.

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