Hamas proves its death toll numbers are a lie
I originally though this story would be part of my earlier essay today on the hate that links Hamas with the American left, but it simply didn’t fit. Nonetheless, this new revelation is worth posting, just so as to keep the record straight.
Hamas this week quietly adjusted the death toll numbers that it has touted since the war in Gaza began in October 2023, removing thousands of names of women and children. The new numbers prove what many analysts have noted repeatedly, that the death statistics Hamas has been releasing were fabricated lies designed to take advantage their willing allies in the mainstream leftist propaganda press to garner sympathy for this terrorist organization worldwide.
Hamas quietly removed the names of thousands of Palestinians it had previously alleged were killed during the Israel-Hamas war, Salo Aizenberg, from the US-based non-profit organisation Honest Reporting told The Telegraph on Tuesday after analyzing Hamas’s March 2025 casualty update.
Hamas has previously claimed that 70% of casualties have been women and children, a claim no longer reflected in their recently updated lists, according to the research. Approximately 72% of fatalities between the ages of 13-55 are men – the demographic category aligns with Hamas combatants. “Hamas’s new March 2025 fatality list quietly drops 3,400 fully ‘identified’ deaths listed in its August and October 2024 reports – including 1,080 children. These ‘deaths’ never happened. The numbers were falsified – again,” Aizenberg asserted.
The only genocide going on in Gaza right now is being committed by Hamas. It has to go, or there will never be any chance for peace there.
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I originally though this story would be part of my earlier essay today on the hate that links Hamas with the American left, but it simply didn’t fit. Nonetheless, this new revelation is worth posting, just so as to keep the record straight.
Hamas this week quietly adjusted the death toll numbers that it has touted since the war in Gaza began in October 2023, removing thousands of names of women and children. The new numbers prove what many analysts have noted repeatedly, that the death statistics Hamas has been releasing were fabricated lies designed to take advantage their willing allies in the mainstream leftist propaganda press to garner sympathy for this terrorist organization worldwide.
Hamas quietly removed the names of thousands of Palestinians it had previously alleged were killed during the Israel-Hamas war, Salo Aizenberg, from the US-based non-profit organisation Honest Reporting told The Telegraph on Tuesday after analyzing Hamas’s March 2025 casualty update.
Hamas has previously claimed that 70% of casualties have been women and children, a claim no longer reflected in their recently updated lists, according to the research. Approximately 72% of fatalities between the ages of 13-55 are men – the demographic category aligns with Hamas combatants. “Hamas’s new March 2025 fatality list quietly drops 3,400 fully ‘identified’ deaths listed in its August and October 2024 reports – including 1,080 children. These ‘deaths’ never happened. The numbers were falsified – again,” Aizenberg asserted.
The only genocide going on in Gaza right now is being committed by Hamas. It has to go, or there will never be any chance for peace there.
Readers!
My annual February birthday fund-raising drive for Behind the Black is now over. Thank you to everyone who donated or subscribed. While not a record-setter, the donations were more than sufficient and slightly above average.
As I have said many times before, I can’t express what it means to me to get such support, especially as no one is required to pay anything to read my work. Thank you all again!
For those readers who like my work here at Behind the Black and haven't contributed so far, please consider donating or subscribing. My analysis of space, politics, and culture, taken from the perspective of an historian, is almost always on the money and ahead of the game. For example, in 2020 I correctly predicted that the COVID panic was unnecessary, that the virus was apparently simply a variation of the flu, that masks were not simply pointless but if worn incorrectly were a health threat, that the lockdowns were a disaster and did nothing to stop the spread of COVID. Every one of those 2020 conclusions has turned out right.
Your help allows me to do this kind of intelligent analysis. I take no advertising or sponsors, so my reporting isn't influenced by donations by established space or drug companies. Instead, I rely entirely on donations and subscriptions from my readers, which gives me the freedom to write what I think, unencumbered by outside influences.
You can support me either by giving a one-time contribution or a regular subscription. There are four ways of doing so:
1. Zelle: This is the only internet method that charges no fees. All you have to do is use the Zelle link at your internet bank and give my name and email address (zimmerman at nasw dot org). What you donate is what I get.
2. Patreon: Go to my website there and pick one of five monthly subscription amounts, or by making a one-time donation.
3. A Paypal Donation or subscription:
4. Donate by check, payable to Robert Zimmerman and mailed to
Behind The Black
c/o Robert Zimmerman
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Cortaro, AZ 85652
You can also support me by buying one of my books, as noted in the boxes interspersed throughout the webpage or shown in the menu above.
While Israel ponders what to do with the Hamas Death Cult and its followers, England is quietly becoming an Islamic caliphate, and no one seems to have the slightest concern about this, least of all, apparently, the English themselves. “Jolly good, being a Muslim nation and all that.”
Consider the following posts:
https://x.com/WallStreetApes/status/1906007081452540213?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1906007081452540213%7Ctwgr%5Ebfe901d414ce9671d1876a1dfadcce03a791461a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fchoiceclips.whatfinger.com%2F2025%2F03%2F29%2Fengland-is-being-conquered-this-is-not-immigration-this-is-invasion-the-muslim-plan-is-the-same-in-all-nations%2F
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2025/03/31/majority-of-uk-muslims-identify-as-muslims-first-over-being-british/
https://endtimeheadlines.org/2025/03/parents-arrested-by-police-for-complaining-about-school-on-whatsapp/
The second post is especially worrisome, and given the demographic situation that obtains there, will there be *anyone* living in England who still identifies with the country / culture / civilization that used to be recognized as England. Probably not, and the country that gave us the Magna Carta and English Common Law will henceforth be know as Mecca on the Thames.
And then there is this:
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/britain/britain-introduces-two-tiered-justice-system/
The Powers That Be in England clearly are looking toward establishing a two tier system of justice in the Caliphate, and everyone seems to be just fine with this.
As a religion Islam fails its followers.
As they try to integrate with the western world their children walk away from Islam more and more.
Learn about Islam, The real Islam not what the ardent followers tell you.
Ok…. Although I have been trying to avoid the political/blatant racist threads… Some light needs to be shined on the blatant lies being peddled here.
The Muslim community makes up a stunningly huge 6% of the UK population. Mostly folks from the Indian subcontinent, invited over after WW2 as Britain had a shortage of working age men.
I’m not going to get into the details, but I have experienced great kindness in a time of great need from the Muslim community in my hometown.
While I have a problem with Islam , as I do with religion in general, I grew up in a very mixed race community, and I can tell you guys that the vast majority of Muslims just want to go about their day in peace. If you have Muslim friends , and have eaten (delicious food!) in their homes you may argue with me. If you have never broken bread with a Muslim, you have absolutely no right to argue conclusions you draw from biased internet sources.
I grew up in the UK in times known as “the trouble’s” , have a quick internet search for “Birmingham pub bombings”… ( Birmingham is the second largest city in the UK, and very close to my home town). We were scared of being blown up… Constantly… By Catholics. Let that sink in for a while.
I also have problems with catholicism, as I do with religion in general.
There are good and bad amongst every race, religion, creed color, and yes, politics . It behoves us to judge the man, not the label.
Oh, and any comment on the video footage that emerged today showing the ambulance convoy recently shot to bits in Palestine clearly shows they had their blue lights on, and headlights on, which the IDF originally denied, but are now ” investigating “, and the fact that when the bodies of the medics were finally recovered from the hastily dug grave in the sand, at least 1 body had his hands tied, and all had died from injuries showing all signs of execution.
There is no definitive right or wrong in this stupid conflict. Just as in every conflict in history, the biggest loser tends to be the innocents.
Oh, and finally,
This post could also have been titled “Hamas revise casualty numbers after new information”. Does the very fact that they have revised the figures not kinda indicate they are aiming for some semblance of transparency?
As I have said previously, I see no good guys in this conflict… Hamas certainly needs to go, but also the civilian Palestinians do not deserve to have their homes, hospitals, and schools destroyed. And every judgment regarding the conflict should take into account the politics in Israel. The “war” is keeping Netanyahu in power and out of court.
I can’t help myself…. This thread leaves me frothing at the mouth!!!
@Milt…. I’m not sure which rock under you dug the “news” site you linked to above… But it’s pretty much 100% bullcrap… It would also behove everyone here to perhaps do a little research before both believing and sharing anything that only confirms their beliefs. We can all be wrong, to err is to be human, but to spread lies and miss information is harmful on many levels. Less hate is called for just now, not more. ( And more truths and less lies )
Lee S: As always, you spew lots of insults and accusations that this story is simply racist and a pack of lies (implying the same to me for reporting it), but as always, you provide no documentation or links to back up your position.
Very tiresome, and very very unconvincing.
Ok Bob…. Is there anything in particular in what I have said that you would like me to provide trustworthy sources for? I am happy to do so, but also, you have to be honest, non of the links posted so far on this thread are exactly bastions of truth…
And I’m pretty sure I have not insulted anyone, perhaps questioned some very questionable news sources, and I questioned your angle on the story, but I am trying very hard to be civil and reasonable in my comments on a situation I have very strong feelings about. Getting angry and shouting does not help anyone, pointing out flaws in logic, and pointing out that if you only get your information from certain political leaning outlets just reenforces a single political viewpoint might ( although I doubt it) broaden people’s horizons a little.
“This post could also have been titled “Hamas revise casualty numbers after new information”. Does the very fact that they have revised the figures not kinda indicate they are aiming for some semblance of transparency?”
No, not for one second are they “aiming for some semblance of transparency”. A silly proposition.
It only indicates that their numbers were from the start part of their phycological operation in manipulating their world audience to their benefit.
No one is telling the Objective truth, especially HAMAS.
Lee S wrote, “Oh, and any comment on the video footage that emerged today showing the ambulance convoy recently shot to bits in Palestine…”
No link. No source. No documentation for the accusation.
I ask for that source but do not expect a response. You promised the same in our previous Hamas thread to demonstrate how oppressed the Palestinians are by Israel, but never did.
By your very tone and approach, implying that everyone who opposes Hamas does so merely because they hate evil Muslims for racist reasons, insults me and all my readers. You spend a lot of time telling us that you know good Muslims. Of course you do. So do I. That however has nothing to do with what Hamas does.
You also show once again that you don’t read. If you had spent ten seconds reading my source, you would have found out that Hamas didn’t just “revise” the numbers. They removed thousands of women and children from the lists. Why were the only errors women and children? Can you think of any reason why previously those false casualty numbers would have been inflated?
Anyone with the slightest amount of objectivity knows why. Too bad it is too difficult for you to figure out.
Bob, I have not insulted anyone on this thread, but you think it is fine to constantly insult my intelligence and ability to read… That’s fine… It’s your website.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/05/phone-footage-appears-to-contradict-israeli-account-of-killing-of-gaza-paramedics?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
A link to the guardian… A fairly trustworthy news source, perhaps a little left for your liking, but certainly more trustworthy than any of the links earlier in this thread.
Right, you imply that you can tell from the tone of my posts that I am all in with Hamas, and you might as well throw in anti semitic… I can tell from your attitude that is how you feel about me. I have tried very hard in my comments on this thread to get across my feelings that this is a stupid conflict, and the losers are innocent civilians. Would you argue with that statement?
Do you think it is a bad thing that Hamas has revised their casualty numbers? Whatever they indicate?
Your very quiet regarding Netanyahu’s political and personal reasons for keeping the conflict hot…. Given that if peace somehow prevails he faces a long list of criminal charges, is it not possible he is prolonging the conflict for his own self good? And is it not worth having a conversation about?
And considering the earlier comments on this thread were all about how the UK is being taken over by Muslims, I don’t think I can be called out for calling out people that are reading, believing and spreading falsehoods…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Islam%20is%20the%20second%2Dlargest,of%20Muslims%20in%20the%20country.
A pretty factually accurate wiki article, which if anyone bothers to take the time to read, gives a good history of, and breakdown of the current status of Islam in the UK. Rumors of a British kalifate may be greatly exaggerated.
If there is anything else you need clarification on let me know, it’s bedtime here, but I will try and answer tomorrow.
Love and light.
Lee S: Thank you for the Guardian story. Most disturbing. I would however like to get more details, including the Israeli position. This NBC News article provides some, and does not appear to have the goal of painting the Israelis as blood-thirsty murderers, as the Guardian story does.
It is very likely that the Israelis fired on this ambulance convoy because its military is quite used to Hamas using hospitals and medical operations as hideouts. How can it know if this is a legitimate medical run versus a getaway by Hamas militants? Both are possible, because unlike civilized nations which put the soldiers in front of civilians to defend them, Hamas hides behind its civilians in the hope bad things like this story will happen and naive westerners will latch onto it to condemn Israel.
In this case it appears the Israeli soldiers involved responded badly after the attack (if the claims of a mass grave are true), and should face consequences.
However, Gaza remains a war zone. Until Hamas is defeated or surrendered, bad things are going to happen there. There is no escape from this reality. And those bad things are happening solely because Hamas decided on October 7th to start this war.
@Cotour….
I am by no means trying to defend Hamas in any way… I consider them evil and a bane upon the people of Palestine… But why would anyone in their position, at this moment in time, alter the casualty figures to what may very well be a more realistic number, and which paints them in a darker light, if not trying to be more transparent?
Bob is pontificating about why did they inflate the numbers of women and children casualtys in the first place… ( He accuses me of not understanding…. But contrary to popular belief I’m not stupid), but the real question is why have they revised the statistics?
I have no answer to that question, but more realistic numbers help everyone evaluate the situation a little more accurately. And no increase in accuracies are going to rebuild the hospitals, schools and homes that now are just piles of rubble. That is where the lasting tragedy lies.
Lee S wrote: “I am by no means trying to defend Hamas in any way…”
Yes you are.
Is this so?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14160805/Muhammad-popular-baby-boys-England-Wales.html
Is it true that the name Mohammad is the most popular boys name now in England?
I am wondering why?
Lee S wrote: “…more realistic numbers help everyone evaluate the situation a little more accurately.”
Which is exactly what my essay did. The new numbers reveal that Hamas has been intentionally adding women and children to the counts, a fact that had been noticed previously by others. In May the UN recognized those numbers were false. Hamas’ own health ministry admitted its publicized numbers were garbage in April 2024.
Yet Hamas didn’t fix the numbers till now. Why wait? To any person willing to look at this evil organization for what it is, the reasons are obvious. They were lying, and were doing whatever they could till now to cover up the lies.
That you don’t like the implication that those earlier numbers were purposely inflated to make Israel look bad, is your problem.
Bonus: https://x.com/LibertyCappy/status/1908582910875087013
Just thinking out loud:
Recently re-watched Band of Brothers, the Pacific, Saving Private Ryan, and Fury.
(And “Generation War,” the alleged “German Band of Brothers,” even though I hate subtitles.)
–Talk about up-close gore on at industrial scale.
Plenty–millions– of civilians get caught up in War, in a warzone.
I’m (always)amazed how little “collateral damage” the IDF actually inflicts. They have no margin of error, or the world-wide Jew-haters melt down, and we get endless B-Roll and Righteous Condemnations. It’s always the children, always with the children., they can’t help themselves.
(And when a rando “hospital” gets blown up in a precision strike, and we see secondary & tertiary explosions for 30 minutes, that’s not REALLY a legit “hospital,” I’m just a civilian but I call that an ammunition-dump.)
Atrocities are being committed on a daily basis; it’s just not the Israeli’s who are committing them.
Lee S,
You wrote: “I grew up in a very mixed race community, and I can tell you guys that the vast majority of Muslims just want to go about their day in peace.”
Well, we have grown up in a very mixed race country, so our experiences trump your minor experience.
“If you have never broken bread with a Muslim, you have absolutely no right to argue conclusions you draw from biased internet sources.”
Because all Muslims are alike? Even Hamas is like all other Muslims? That isn’t a good look for those that we have broken bread with. Will the Muslims I have broken bread with also commit an October 7th on my country, state, or town?
If our experiences aren’t exactly like yours then our freedom of speech is abridged?
But you get to talk all you want about America, even though you only visited a couple of friends for a week or so in one small town in the back woods of a not-so-large state?
“We were scared of being blown up… Constantly… By Catholics. Let that sink in for a while.”
Aw. Now that that sank in, I feel so sorry for you, but I grew up in a country that thought the entire country would be blown up not by ‘evil Irish Catholics’ but by Godless marxists. “Duck and cover!” Even if they blew up a single city, our day would be so much worse than yours.
Wait.
Lee, aren’t you a marxist? I’m not even Catholic, much less Irish Catholic.
“I am by no means trying to defend Hamas in any way… ”
Except that anyone who does not agree with you must by definition be wrong, and anyone who has not broken bread with a Muslim must shut up.
http://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/what-ever-you-do-dont-shut-up (5 minutes)
I have pointed this out before and I guess I will have to remake the point.
The Palestinian people are essentially a conquered people.
A conquered people who are not being allowed to assimilate by religious zealot actors sponsored by diametrically opposed religious operators in other countries. They are not allowed to assimilate and live in peace with those who are essentially their conquerors who could wipe them out and solve their problems but choose not to.
150 years ago, this condition would have been solved but those on the Left armed with their Liberal / Leftist / Marxist legal degrees from Harvard and Yale and operating under the auspices of the U.N. or similar organization will not allow it.
Sad, pure Strategy Over Morality.
Islam, even though it worships(supposedly) the same god of the Jews and Christians has felt it necessary to leave out the 10 commandments. You know, those basic rules of a good society. They are actually told to lie to their enemies. Taqiyya as its called.
Are you their enemy? Can you believe them?
The history of Mohamed and Islam is even hidden from devout followers.
But now with the internet many many Muslims are discovering the real truth.
Mohamed was supposedly based for a time in the city of Medina but there is no record of that city until hundreds of years after he died.
Look up Dr. Jay Smith.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQCqhuGPHTQ&ab_channel=FOCLOnline
Or Sam Shamoun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3bnvY01R4s&ab_channel=TalkTV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mlxMndnlzw&ab_channel=DouglasJohnston
Why is Hamas updating its death numbers now?
Because it realized even its own people will not back those numbers up now, not with open anti Hamas protests cropping all over Gaza.
They even went as far as to kidnap and kill one of the protesters and dropped his body off in his families front yard.
As for the bodies in a mass grave. Why would the Israelis do that? All they had to do was say Hamas did the deed. Doing it all in public in the middle of Gaza?
By the way I am a Catholic with a little Irish in his background.
@pzatchok ( and Bob) … Latest update from the IDF…
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/06/israeli-military-admits-initial-account-of-palestinian-medics-killing-was-mistaken?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
@Edward… Quote “I grew up in a country that thought the entire country would be blown up not by ‘evil Irish Catholics’ but by Godless marxists.”
I also grew up during the cold war… In a town very close to the main rail interchange in the UK. We were comforted somewhat knowing we would be melted in the fireball if it all kicked off. It was also a little worrying living knowing there was a less than 0 chance of getting blown up while out having a drink and a dance. I was once evacuated from a nightclub due to a credible bomb threat. That puts a bit of a downer on your evening.
@Edward,
Serious question…. Do you have any Muslim friends? Have you ever eaten Indian food in a Muslim household?
As I have stated many times here, there is a universe of difference between your average Muslim man or woman than the fanatical terrorist faction that are causing all the troubles. All the Muslims I personally know are calm, moderate, kinda are Muslim in the same way that our host Bob is Jewish… No long beards ( especially the girls ), enjoy a beer , a joke, and are horrified by the actions of Hamas. I actually gave a Muslim friend a little good natured teasing a couple of weeks ago for eating during daylight during Ramadan… His response… ” I know I’m Muslim… I never said.i was a good Muslim”… We laughed and went about our day.
Your statement… Quote…. “Well, we have grown up in a very mixed race country, so our experiences trump your minor experience.”… Begs the question, how much of a mixed race community did YOU grow up in? I grew up with Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Punjabi, Rasta, and indeed Christian friends. ( And fortunately, atheist also. I have a problem with all religions)
Never had a problem with them… All from hard working families, all nice friends, not one of them are going to blow me up.
My comments on this thread have been so misconstrued, my points are that England is not in any danger of turning into some kind of Islamic state.. think about 6% .. and think on… And that most folk just want to go to work, raise their kids, feed their family and go about their life… Regardless of race, creed or color.
And a thought should.be given to the innocent Palestinians who no longer have homes to return to. This is not an endorsement for Hamas,.it is a plea for a little humanity for those caught up in a terrible situation beyond their control.
PSSST (YOU ARE REALLY NOT A SOCIALIST)
“”No, no I am a Socialist in the spirit of countries like Sweden, Norway and Demark, the “GOOD” Socialism”. (There is no “GOOD” Socialism)”
Read the rest @
https://www.sigma3ioc.com/post/pssst-you-are-really-not-a-socialist
https://x.com/IocSigma371445/status/1908917062329647442
Oh… @Edward….
Yup, I actually had a few weeks in north Carolina, and west Virginia over 2 visits.
Do you recall me having anything negative to say about my visits? Do you recall me having anything negative to say about the wonderful people I met during my visits? Do you recall any criticism at all of my time in the backwoods of your crazy country?
The answer is no… Because I had nothing but the best of times, met no one but the nicest and genuinest ( if that’s even a word ) of folk, we never discussed politics, 100% trump to a man and women, but speaking to poor folks living in once affluent neighborhoods I understood their position…. Contrary to popular belief, I’m not an idiot, and I have empathy… I met some of the kindest people I have ever met in the US… and if it’s ok with you .
Quote Edward…
“But you get to talk all you want about America, even though you only visited a couple of friends for a week or so in one small town in the back woods of a not-so-large state”
I will continue to talk about the US as I found it… Perhaps a little misguided politically;-) but the most welcoming folks I have ever encountered. Please do not me the disservice of twisting what I said in the past.
Love and light
They revised the death-toll because eventually they would have claimed more people are dead than the entire population that actually exists.
They aren’t even skilled liars, they just lie.
The Cranberries –
Zombie – Reaction Compilation
https://youtu.be/0REkEqSzPns
8:54
“It’s the same old theme, since 1916.
In your head, in your head they’re still fighting.
With their tanks, and their bombs, and their bombs, and their guns,
In your head, in your head they are dying.”
I grew up during the Cold War as well, all you foreigners depended on our nuclear weapons to save you, but you just went all bolshy all by yourselves.
I am not interested in saving you guys for a 3rd time in 100 years.
“The United Kingdom is estimated to possess 225 nuclear weapons, of which 120 are operationally available and only 40 are deployed at a time.”
Good luck UK! I bet they don’t even work.
Ooooops, I missed this one….
Quote Bob Z. “Lee S wrote: “I am by no means trying to defend Hamas in any way…”
Yes you are.”
Bob, you are an excellent historian, a superb space and science blog host, but I guess we all have flaws, and if you take the time to read back thru my comments on this thread you will see I have nothing but condemnation for Hamas. This however doesn’t mean that I believe the IDF is always in the right.
There are wrong doings on both sides… Hamas committed atrocities which I unconditionally condemn… Israel has basically flattened Palestine, leaving hundreds of thousands, if not millions homeless, which I also unconditionally condemn.
There are also other things that should be taken into consideration in this situation, things I have mentioned earlier, but have been met with deafening silence…. Is it really possible that Hamas could have organized an attack on this scale without the best intelligence service in the world getting a whiff of the plans? Is it beyond the realms of possibilities that Hamas was allowed to go ahead with the attack, to give Israel the reason it has been looking for to flatten Gaza? ( Totally my own conspiracy theory… I’m sure it has cropped up elsewhere tho..)
And the political advantages to keeping a conflict going in Gaza are many for Netanyahu.
Non of my viewpoints here point to some sort of sympathy with Hamas. They are points worth taking on board when discussing the situation.
It’s not often I get chance to say this, but Bob,.you are 100% wrong. I am not defending Hamas, and if I have written anything that indicates to you I am, please point it out and I am happy to clarify.
What I am advocating for is some compassion and sympathy for the blameless, homeless, displaced and starving folk caught up in this mess. Remember, they might be brown and live in a far away land… But they love their children just as much as we do.
@wayne… Quote…
“Good luck UK! I bet they don’t even work.”
Plus some slightly dodgy lyrics from a pro-peace tune from the 90’sdo not an argument make.
Plus quote “I am not interested in saving you guys for a 3rd time in 100 years.” ( Just asking for a friend, but did you ever pick up a gun to help “us”? …. I very much doubt it) … And may I point out that the UK was the first to stand up to Hitler and the Nazi regime… Thanks for the help, glad you could come, sorry you were late… It would behove you to check out the British input into the Manhattan project, which as with your all encompassing of wartime history will know helped shorten the 2nd world war a little, at least in your arena.
3 times? In 100 years… Please educate me a little…. And let’s try to forget how without help from the French it’s very doubtful that you wouldn’t have king Charles on your money today… War of independence monsuair?
Ok, I need to get an early night, very early start tomorrow… But I would like to leave you guys with a little food for thought to pick over..
I know on this forum I am considered a pinko commie, but in Sweden, amongst my peer group I am considered to have many right wing views… I am absolutely not against free Enterprise outside of the essential public services sector, I am a free speech absolutist, earned lots of money? Go enjoy! ( But pay tax when you die ), I am hardly what is considered far left over in this neck of the woods.
What I genuinely am is a humanist, I believe that we have a responsibility to look after those that have it worse than we do…. For whatever reason.
I will never plunge my family into poverty due to us helping out the less fortunate, but I will always give what I can comfortably give to help out those people that need it. I know churches have claimed to have done this for century’s, although the amount that filters out is questionable, but today it is easy to seek out a charity that is transparent and accountable.
One of the charities I am currently supporting is providing ground help in Palestine, ( when not getting blown up by the IDF ). This in no way means I am supporting Hamas, it means I have problems with the IDF’s methods, and I think they need closer scrutiny… If you are going to claim the high ground you need to be able to defend that hill.
This in everyway means I want to help out the innocent people of Palestine, now homeless, jobless and missing friends and family… They are not a mass of faceless brown terrorists far away… They are a huge group of fellow human beings, being shepherded around huge distances with only what they can carry on their backs. Children in tow.
Perhaps the original death tole figures were bull… But the displaced figure makes nothing but sense…. Can anyone here look at the photos from Gaza and even imagine your abode being among the rubble? Where do you start to rebuild your life, when the fighting finally stops.
I will say one last time… I have Zero support for Hamas… They are the worst thing that ever happened to the Palestinians, but I also have 100% support for every working class family that has lost everything. We are all people, it is easy to “other” folk suffering in another land, but it only by an accident of birth that it is them and not you or me.
I’d like to flippantly say ___-____ and ___-____, but out of respect to our host, I’ll just say, “your words mean nothing, and I do not hear them.”
I did not serve in the Military.
2 dead uncles in France, 1 in the Pacific, 1 wounded in Vietnam, 1 second cousin wounded in Iraq.
That’s enough for my family.
As anyone who has read me over the years, I generally advocate “extremely harsh measures be employed, in Wartime” but I’m not sending my neighbors children or my grandchild, to save Europe. Not another time..
The whole Cranberry thing’; that’s all IRA, Ireland, and Britain stuff. That’s your history, not mine.
Lee S: 1. My original post was very specifically and very clearly criticizing Hamas and its dishonesty and brutality. You immediately conflated this very incorrectly to mean I was applying this criticism to all Muslims, implying that I and everyone else who agreed with me was a bigot who could not tell the difference between a Hamas thug and an ordinary Muslim raising his kids in suburbia .
What crap.
Moreover, when you read my original post you immediately were filled with outrage that I would dare criticize Hamas for its dishonest fiddling with casualty numbers. Your only interest has been to deflect the conversation away from any criticism of Hamas, a truly despicable organization that no civilized person should spend one iota of energy defending, ever. Yet that has been your purpose here.
So, yes you are defending Hamas. For example, the very essay I posted just before this one noted how Hamas had captured, tortured, and then murdered one of the leaders of the demonstrations in Gaza against Hamas. I find it very interesting this prompted no comment from you. Might it because it illustrates the evil of this organization, and you don’t like to ponder that fact?
2. You now write this absolutely absurd slander, utterly false, against Israel: “Israel has basically flattened Palestine, leaving hundreds of thousands, if not millions homeless, which I also unconditionally condemn.”
The war is in Gaza, specifically. Implying Israel has done this throughout the West Bank is a lie. No one outside Gaza has been left homeless as you imply. To distort the truth in this manner tells me precisely where your sympathies lie. To you, the narrative means all, and that narrative requires a moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel that shows you to be so divorced from reality it is a waste of time continuing any discussion with you on this subject.
Everyone in Gaza must accept their own responsibility for this situation. They voted to put Hamas in power. Many many participated directly in the October 7th massacre, which started this war. Many many also participated in the holding of the hostages, including starving, raping, and murdering them. Finally, all signs continue to tell us that a large majority still support Hamas’ goals of genocide against all non-Muslims.
When you choose to do evil, than you should not be surprised if bad things happen to you.
Well one thing that you can say for sure is that Lee S, formerly of England and now of Sweden gets things cranked up on BTB.
One might think that he does his magic on purpose for effect, but I believe that he really thinks and processes things as he says. He is genuine and an example of how some people actually think in the world.
It gives perspective and that is a good thing.
Cotour-
Very nicely stated.
Lee S,
“Serious question…. Do you have any Muslim friends?”
Trick question. I am far more picky about who I consider friends than you. I have three friends, none that I met this century.
“Have you ever eaten Indian food in a Muslim household?”
Apparently, the Muslims I know are more Americanized than the ones you know.
“As I have stated many times here, there is a universe of difference between your average Muslim man or woman than the fanatical terrorist faction that are causing all the troubles.”
Maybe, but you have taken the Muslims that you and I know and that everyone else on this thread know and you equated them to Hamas. Your implication is that if the ones we know are nice and friendly, then how can we possibly think that Hamas is any worse? This is why you say that if we haven’t dined with a Muslim, we have no say in the Hamas-Israeli conflict. Our First Amendment rights only kick in once we have dinner at a Muslim’s house. And only an Indian dinner to boot.
“how much of a mixed race community did YOU grow up in? I grew up with Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Punjabi, Rasta, and indeed Christian friends. ( And fortunately, atheist also. I have a problem with all religions)”
Add in Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism. I am not the only agnostic that I know, although I do not consider that as a religion but a lack of religion, because there is no belief or faith associated with it (just confusion), unlike atheism, which believes and has faith that there is no god at all. We get people from all over the world, here, where I grew up. Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Australian, New Zealander (there is a difference, and don’t you ever forget it — or ever confuse the two!), African (nationality didn’t come up), various South American and Central American countries, Canadian, Russian and other Soviet territories, and even various European countries, although the Italians, Sicilians, Poles, and Irish were the most vocal about their heritage (we even have a special day to celebrate the Irish St. Patrick, a day during which everyone is an honorary Irishman). Long heritage in this country, second generation, and first generation from naturalized to being in the process of naturalization to being permanent residents who want to never be naturalized to being visiting colleagues — which brings us to:
Post childhood gets even more interesting, but my favorite story comes from an event that I attended in the later half of the 1980s at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, when one college student at my table said he was from Iraq and the student across the table from him said he was from Iran, and one of them jumped up and shook the other’s hand. I think that they were both happy to be in school in America, because otherwise instead of shaking hands with each other they would have been in combat against each other in the Iran-Iraq war.
“ my points are that England is not in any danger of turning into some kind of Islamic state …”
Tell that to the prosecutors and legislators who persecute anyone who does not advocate for Islam.
“ And that most folk just want to go to work, raise their kids, feed their family and go about their life… Regardless of race, creed or color ”
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty, and in America most people just wanted the same things, which is how America became a woke, marxist, paradisical dystopia at risk of Dearbornistan spreading across our great land. Just as England is at the same risk.
“And a thought should.be given to the innocent Palestinians who no longer have homes to return to. This is not an endorsement for Hamas,.it is a plea for a little humanity for those caught up in a terrible situation beyond their control.”
But let’s ignore the innocent Israelis with the same problem, or those who were killed, maimed, or kidnapped by guilty Palestinians from Gaza, or those who continuously suffer from missile attacks from Palestinians and Muslims from all around Israel. They don’t count. After all, they are only Jews, and not even our Jews at that.
Humanity for the genocidal-by-policy, but none for their victims.
Sheesh.
“Do you recall me having anything negative to say about my visits?”
Yes. Your friends were poor, and it was the fault of all the rest of Americans and our non-marxist policies.
“Do you recall any criticism at all of my time in the backwoods of your crazy country?”
Which answers your own question, but your next sentence tells us that you don’t recognize your own criticisms, which explains why you don’t recognize your insults, either.
“Yup, I actually had a few weeks in north Carolina, and west Virginia over 2 visits. … I will continue to talk about the US as I found it”
Which means that your bias will always be toward people that you consider to be victims of free market capitalism, although their poverty and hardship comes from marxist Democrats closing down their coal mine jobs in the name of saving us from global climate warming change, leaving them on Democrat-created welfare and food stamps (now known as SNAP), because they can, and because these two safety nets are used as hammocks so that your friends don’t have to move and find new gainful employments the way the rest of us Americans do when we lose our jobs. Instead of prosperity, your friends have chosen failure, because America is willing to pay them to not work, a policy that reduces prosperity for them and for the rest of us.
You are left with a skewed view of America, thinking that you know us very well, because you broke bread with a couple of us.
The left continues to make a serious and misguided mistake,
When you support in ANY way the people ruled by a dictator your taking the responsibility away from the ruler. Your teaching the oppressed people that you will support them and they have no real need to kick off their oppressors. Your just prolonging the inevitable lesson that MUST be learned and the inevitable actions that must be taken by the oppressed.
The oppressed must feel that they themselves won the fight. Otherwise they have a shadow over their psyche making them feel inadequate to those who freed them. They are easy to conquer again.
Over 50 years of the UN feeding Africans and they have not once removed a dictator without another dictator just taking over.
Closer to home think of it like ‘helicopter” parents who never let their children free to fail. They have trouble growing up yo be independent self sufficient adults.
Just as the Gazans are getting up and starting to hold large protests against their oppressors the liberals want to step in and “help” them.
This just takes responsibility away from Hamas, the elected government. the people who should be taking care of their people. The Hamas leadership does not even live there.
Your donating to the Gazans helps no one but your own feelings. You have not changed their situation you have just helped it last longer. And that is if Hamas does not steal the aid. When they steal the aid your just directly supporting Hamas.
If you want to save the children then adopt them. At least then you not letting those children be turned into and used as weapons in a continuing war.
Edward / pzatchok:
Good stuff.
Wow…. I really stirred up a whole pot of stew here…. Good! The readership here tends to all sail in the same direction, and the occasional crosswinds can do no harm… Perhaps even stimulate a new thought!
I am going to try and answer as many comments as I can… It’s been a long day, ( I know…. I’m a capitalist at heart… I love that overtime..) , and Bob… Don’t worry, I am saving a few extra minutes in the next day or so to answer your criticism of my comments.
Right… Let’s start….
@Edward…. Quote..
Me… “Do you recall me having anything negative to say about my visits?”
You “Yes. Your friends were poor, and it was the fault of all the rest of Americans and our non-marxist policies.”
Actually, my friend works in the IT industry , has a bloody good job, enjoys the environment, finds it very economical to live where she lives, and has been able to buy a big chunk of land with possible valuable mineral rights.
When I spoke of people being poor, I meant the locals… The owner of the diner I frequented a few times told me she would have to sell up within 12 months… No custom.. no profit. She was just one of the many locals I spoke with… All wonderful people without a dream as all the decent paying jobs had left.
My friends could absolutely afford to up sticks and move…. The local population could not. Kinda throws a stick in the spokes of your argument.
( Oh, and the above shows you absolutely don’t remember my comments about my time in your country)
Next… Quote regarding me saying a Muslim population of 6% is hardly an existential threat…
“Tell that to the prosecutors and legislators who persecute anyone who does not advocate for Islam.”
Try and do a little more research, then come back to me with some facts. Wherever you got the nonsense you based this statement on is full of crap. Try searching news sources without a racist far right bias. There is no Islamic takeover in the UK… Its just bull.
I have never equated the Muslims I know with Hamas… ( Are you listening Bob?) , indeed I have tried to point out that the vast majority of Muslims want nothing to do with Hamas, they do not want to be associated with Hamas, they are just folk that want to go about their day… Just as the vast majority of Catholics want nothing to do with the IRA.
It is warming that you saw 2 guys from waring factions shake hands across the table… But that is how most regular folk feel…. Screw politics, screw religion, let me go to work tomorrow… And let’s eat and drink a coffee and talk about music or the weather or anything other than war.
I’m actually done… A 12 hour day for the capitalist god of 1.5x overtime per hour dragged me into the fold of thinking krona over sleep…
I, ( if required ) will return tomorrow to rebuke the rest of the absolute nonsense cast against me. ( And Bob, I suggest you have another read thru my comments on this thread, and consider again if you think I am siding with Hamas…. Because I feel the IDF is not blameless does not mean I’m all in with Hamas. )
Just before I drift off… Checking the news… The guardian is a well respected news source…
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/07/gaza-paramedics-shot-in-upper-body-with-intent-to-kill-red-crescent-says?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
I can’t sleep… Keep your kids away from phones and tablets at night folks…
Right
Quote Bob.. “You immediately conflated this very incorrectly to mean I was applying this criticism to all Muslims”
Errrm… No I did not.
Quote Bob.. “Your only interest has been to deflect the conversation away from any criticism of Hamas,”
Errrm… No… In pretty much every post in this thread I have expressed my hatred for what Hamas has done to the Palestinians… Have a read back thru this thread and you will realize this is just a (perhaps inadvertent) lie.
I also see absolutely no response to my wondering if Hamas’s attack was known to the Israeli authorities, and allowed to go ahead as an excuse to rubbalize Gaza, and if keeping the war going has anything to do with keeping Netanyahu out of court?
The fact that I bring up these questions does not mean I am anti anything… They do mean I am absolutely pro truth, and I’m not afraid to ask difficult questions.
The fact I have mentioned these questions several times on this forum and received zero response, but when I mention the disenfranchised, the blameless, homeless and the misplaced could perhaps need a bit of help I am called some kind of Hamas sympathiser…
I am against the killing of civilians in general… I don’t particularly agree with bombing women and children in general… While ( and Bob… Read this and try to remember what I said ) , I condemn Hamas’s actions absolutely, I also do not think the Israeli response has been balanced and appropriate.
I just hope that peace can prevail before too many innocents die. You guys can give me as much crap as you like… Over my politics or whatever…. But nothing would make me happier than innocents stop dying in a war they don’t actually care about :-(
Lee S,
You complain that we don’t agree with you, but you keep writing bizarre things — wrong things. Demonstrably wrong.
“… and if you take the time to read back thru my comments on this thread you will see I have nothing but condemnation for Hamas.”
So, let’s look back. By the time you wrote the above, here is the condemnation that you had for Hamas: “Hamas certainly needs to go, but …” Well, it isn’t calling them terrorists, genocidal, evil, or so forth, so to you condemnation is saying that they should not be the Palestinian leadership. Your condemnation, in context, is against Israel. “I see no good guys in this conflict…” to paraphrase your conclusion: ‘but Israel — and especially Netanyahu — certainly need to go.’
“And a thought should.be given to the innocent Palestinians who no longer have homes to return to. This is not an endorsement for Hamas,.it is a plea for a little humanity for those caught up in a terrible situation beyond their control.”
You realized that it was an endorsement for Hamas, so you had to actively deny it in order to make it all right. We should only give thought to the “innocent” Palestinians who put Hamas into power in Gaza. A strange definition of the word “innocent.”
Hey, there is a good loophole for Robert’s “no insults” rule. We insult all we want, just so long as we deny it by saying, “this is not an insult” in order to make it all right So, here goes: This is not an insult, but … yada, yada, yada.
“If you have Muslim friends , and have eaten (delicious food!) in their homes you may argue with me. If you have never broken bread with a Muslim, you have absolutely no right to argue conclusions you draw from biased internet sources.”
Since our conclusions have been against Hamas, well, this is obviously your way of shutting us up from being anti-Hamas. Looks to me like an endorsement for Hamas. (I’m a bit confused about the rule. Do I have to have eaten in the homes of all of my Muslim friends, some of them, or any of them? And what if one or more of the meals didn’t turn out to be delicious? The deliciousness of the food seems to be at once the most important and a minor requirement.)
But since we get to make up rules for who gets to be in the argument:
If you have Jewish friends, some of whom invited you to Seder in their homes, then you may argue with me. Oh, wait: This is not an endorsement for Netanyahu.
This is where you, Lee, have compared all Muslims with Hamas. We are not allowed to argue about Hamas unless we know and ate with any Muslim, not necessarily with a Hamas Muslim.
“Oh, and any comment on the video footage that emerged today showing the ambulance convoy recently shot to bits in Palestine clearly shows they had their blue lights on, and headlights on, which the IDF originally denied, but are now ‘ investigating ‘, and the fact that when the bodies of the medics were finally recovered from the hastily dug grave in the sand, at least 1 body had his hands tied, and all had died from injuries showing all signs of execution.”
So we can’t comment on the video footage, either, unless we broke bread with our Muslim friends. Another support for Hamas on your part.
“This post could also have been titled ‘Hamas revise casualty numbers after new information’. Does the very fact that they have revised the figures not kinda indicate they are aiming for some semblance of transparency?”
This is direct endorsement of Hamas. You think they are being transparent and truthful.
“And every judgment regarding the conflict should take into account the politics in Israel. The ‘war’ is keeping Netanyahu in power and out of court.”
Well, that is an attack on Israel and Netanyahu. So, whose side are you on? Not Israel’s and definitely not Netanyahu. You cannot even bring yourself to admit that this is a real war. You can only think of it as some form of bogus “war,” once again attacking Israel and especially Netanyahu.
To paraphrase a Muslim saying: the attacker of Hamas’s enemy is Hamas’s friend.
Your comments show you favor the Palestinians greatly, and, as you know, they elected Hamas to lead them, which means that you favor the people who favor Hamas. One degree of disambiguation points to you favoring of Hamas.
“I’m not sure which rock under you dug the ‘news’ site you linked to above… But it’s pretty much 100% bullcrap… It would also behove everyone here to perhaps do a little research before both believing and sharing anything that only confirms their beliefs. We can all be wrong, to err is to be human, but to spread lies and miss information is harmful on many levels. Less hate is called for just now, not more. ( And more truths and less lies )”
Well, if any news that does not favor Hamas is “100% bullcrap” to you, that is also direct endorsement for Hamas.
“but I am trying very hard to be civil and reasonable in my comments on a situation I have very strong feelings about.”
Your support of Hamas is a very strong feeling for you.
“[Robert is] very quiet regarding Netanyahu’s political and personal reasons for keeping the conflict hot…. Given that if peace somehow prevails he faces a long list of criminal charges, is it not possible he is prolonging the conflict for his own self good? And is it not worth having a conversation about?”
For a moment there, it looked like you finally were realizing that Israel’s reason for destroying Hamas was for its own safety as one of the reasons for continuing the conflict, but then you kept writing, and now we realize that you are just anti-Netanyahu and anti-Israel. Once again, the enemy of Hamas’s enemy is Hamas’s friend.
So, no, Lee. It is not worth distracting ourselves with the irrelevance of your bigotry just so that we stop being anti-genocidal-terrorist-Hamas for a while.
“I am by no means trying to defend Hamas in any way… I consider them evil and a bane upon the people of Palestine… But”
Everyone knows what the word “but” means and why you would use it.
“What I genuinely am is a humanist, I believe that we have a responsibility to look after those that have it worse than we do…. For whatever reason.”
Unless they are Israeli, which also shows us your support for Hamas.
“I will never plunge my family into poverty due to us helping out the less fortunate, but I will always give what I can comfortably give to help out those people that need it.”
But America spends its treasure, plunging itself into a great debt in order to help out the less fortunate, such as the marxists in Sweden, the U.K., Europe, and elsewhere in the world, and what thanks so we get? Those we help aren’t willing to do the same, putting the whole burden onto us, and “Thanks for the help, glad you could come, sorry you were late.” A backhanded compliment if ever there was one.
That got off the topic: looking back thru your comments in order to see that you have nothing but condemnation for Hamas.
“One of the charities I am currently supporting is providing ground help in Palestine, ( when not getting blown up by the IDF ). This in no way means I am supporting Hamas, it means I have problems with the IDF’s methods, and I think they need closer scrutiny… If you are going to claim the high ground you need to be able to defend that hill ”
I already covered that you had to actively deny it in order to make it all right. You realized that it was support for Hamas.
“This in everyway means I want to help out the innocent people of Palestine, now homeless, jobless and missing friends and family”
But not the innocent people of Israel, now homeless, jobless and missing friends and family. You help the supporters and voters for Hamas, who want the genocide of all Jews, not the victims of Hamas. How is that not supporting Hamas?
I count twelve statements of yours in support and endorsement of Hamas. Not condemnation. Support.
___________________
Lee: “Wow…. I really stirred up a whole pot of stew here…. Good!”
Which means that you really are a troll.
“Perhaps even stimulate a new thought!”
If we had new thoughts, we would be wrong. Most of our thoughts are already well thought out, but yours are not, with is why you think new ones are needed.
“My friends could absolutely afford to up sticks and move…. The local population could not”
They cannot, because their welfare checks make it more affordable to remain unproductive members of the country, suckling off the teat of government. That was my argument, which you have once again proved.
“<em Oh, and the above shows you absolutely don’t remember my comments about my time in your country”
No, it means that your story changed. You never mentioned that your friends were the rich members of the community.
“Try and do a little more research, then come back to me with some facts. … Try searching news sources without a racist far right bias.”
Once again, anything that does not agree with your narrative is by definition “full of crap.” It is too bad that we Americans are more familiar with the persecutions of those who say anything even mildly against the official government truths, especially where Muslims are concerned.
“I have never equated the Muslims I know with Hamas…”
Yes, you did, and I have explained that above. What is worse is that you are the first person to bring any Muslims other than Hamas and its voters into the discussion. Your bad.
“And let’s eat and drink a coffee and talk about music or the weather or anything other than war.”
You are the one to get into the discussion, and you did so with bogus claims that were easily disputed, and some of them were disputed in Robert’s original post.
“I also see absolutely no response to my wondering if Hamas’s attack was known to the Israeli authorities”
You are the only one who cares about that topic. In fact, it is another attempt upon your part “to deflect the conversation away from any criticism of Hamas.” Funny how you are unable to see that.
“I just hope that peace can prevail before too many innocents die.”
Too late. That ship sailed on October 7th. There was peace, then there were dead, maimed, and kidnapped innocents — among them were supporters of Gazan Palestinians. So far, Lee, you are one of the few who still supports Gazan Palestinians.