Major victory for Boris Johnson, Tories, and Brexit


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A victory for democracy: In the elections today in the United Kingdom it appears at this moment that the conservative Tories under Boris Johnson, running under a platform to quickly enforce the public’s vote three years ago to leave the European Union, have won the biggest majority since the 1980s under Margaret Thatcher.

As is typical in the modern journalist field, these results are also much more favorable to the conservatives than all the polls, which had called for a much closer result. The result is also a major rejection of Great Britain’s leftist and increasingly anti-Semitic Labor Party under Jeremy Corbyn.

Most important, the victory for Johnson is also a vindication of his strong position that he and Great Britain’s politicians had a responsibility to respect the voters’ choice three years ago to exit the European Union, and the effort by politicians to nullify that vote was a direct attack on democracy. The voters have clearly shown their contempt for that nullification effort, and have said so forcefully at the polls.

My immediate thought, from an American perspective: If only the American voters were as willing to make such a forceful statement. Our Democratic Party has been acting as bad and as anti-democratic as the politicians in the UK these past three years. It is long past time for a major political house-cleaning in Washington.

So far, the American voters have shown no inclination to do this, however, and in fact in the 2018 election did the exact opposite, rewarding the corrupt Democratic Party with more power by giving them control of the House. The result has been this ludicrous impeachment effort by the Democrats that is blatantly an effort to nullify the 2016 presidential election. They have no grounds for impeachment and the removal of Donald Trump, other than the fact that they don’t like him and that he beat them in a fair election.

They should be punished in the same way. Will the American voters do it? So far I remain pessimistic. I also pray every day that my pessimism turns out to be wrong.

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55 comments

  • David

    I think you’re optimistic saying this was directly intended to punish Labor for their behavior. Most exit polling seems to indicate it was nearly 100% Corbyn, people simply could not bring themselves to vote for him. And I see no indication that we have nearly that level of rejection of Biden, Bernie, etc here.

  • Ian C.

    Just in time for Brexit in January 2020. Now that the EU aims to creates the eco-socialist “European Green Deal,” which will make life even more expensive and restricted for ordinary citizens and businesses and hands over even more power and wealth to unelected and unaccountable circles.
    We can expect the EU to still behave like a bully and the British elites and activists in media, academia, and “civil society” will continue to sabotage Brexit where they can, so it’s not over yet.

  • David: I did not say that this vote was intended to punish Labor. I said this vote was a message from the voters condemning the effort by both Labor and the Tory “remainers” to try to nullify the Brexit vote. The vote today unequivocally endorsed Boris Johnson and his effort to get out of the EU as quickly as possible.

    The Democrats (and the Never Trump Republicans) are trying to do the same thing in the U.S., nullify the legal 2016 election. They should suffer the same fate.

  • wayne

    Nigel Farage reaction as Conservatives set for majority
    12/12/19 BBC News
    https://youtu.be/cgpinqqRLA4
    5:05

  • Phill O

    I am thinking that this phony impeachment will be the best thing to happen to the republicans! Sure, there are those who will back the dems regardless due to personal bias and their strong arm tactics where also antisemitism runs strong. However, there is evidence that town-hall meeting are blasting the democrats.

    However, look for last minute “found” votes for the dems in the trunk of someone’s car in the next election. The liberals have shown there is no limit to the shenanigans they will play. THIS may be exactly what voters in the UK rejected.

  • Lee S

    The reasons the Tories won by such a large majority are legion… A combination of Brexit advocates on the left voting tactically, as mentioned, many labour voters could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn, and labours manifesto was the most leftist I have seen in my 50 years on the planet…. Way too left for even many left wingers.
    I am disappointed that the Brexit issue has dominated this election , meaning the real issues of what is very wrong with my homeland at the moment have mostly been ignored.
    ( For the record, if the politians had done their job, and the trade agreements and negotiations for a smooth Brexit had been completed years ago, I would vote leave.)
    The truth is that poverty in the UK is more widespread than anytime post war… Crime is rife, the NHS has the longest waiting times since it’s creation, the police have been cut back to the bone, the streets are dirty, and the people are broken, by cutbacks to public services by years of Tory rule.
    And the lie that all will be so much better after leaving the EU has been swallowed hook, line and sinker.
    There are many good reasons for going it alone, but it will not be the magic wand that has been promised.
    My politics are well known here, so obviously I am disappointed, but the slugs have voted for more salt, and at the end of the day, the voters get the government they deserve….

  • David

    An interesting side note: every single one of the members that did a party swap to go from leave to remain… gets to leave. Every single one lost their seat.

  • Lee S

    This sums up the current political events in the UK better than I could ever… ( For those who are still interested.. which rules out the majority of the UK public..)
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexit

  • Andrew_W

    Lee S, Polly Toynbee appears to be a completely deranged fanatic convinced that Johnson is evil incarnate, reading that, on top of all the comments about the evil Democrat’s on this blog, reminds me of a poem:
    Nutters to the right of him,
    nutters to the left of him . . .

  • Lee S

    @ Andrew…. Johnson is not evil incarnate… He’s much worse than that..
    ( Only joking. ) But he is a man with a history of lies, infidelity, and self interest.
    How he leads the UK has yet to be seen, I am pessimistic, the UK has a multitude of problems… ( Does the US have food banks?… The UK does… The better off leaving food for the worse off… Serious question..)
    But the people have put their trust in him. And democracy provails..
    I have nothing more than my opinion, I was not allowed to vote, because I have lived outside the UK for longer than 15 years, so I can only sit and watch… But I predict an airplane crash…

  • wayne

    Lee S:

    Yes, we have ‘food-banks’ in the United States. Primarily a local/regional thing and non-profit, and not run by the government. They generally accept donations of non-perishables although some have refrigeration available for perishables.
    On the Federal level, we have the “SNAP” program, (supplemental nutrition assistance) which is generically called “food-stamps,” but they no longer use actual paper certificates and benefits are on electronic cards (generally called “EBT” cards depending on the State). [ we also have the “WIC” Program– ‘woman, infants, and children,’ which pays for baby-food, formula, and other specific fresh or minimally processed items intended for woman, infants, and children.]
    Roughly 40 million (+/-) people receive “SNAP” benefits on a monthly basis in the USA. Florida has the highest percentage of people on SNAP, although California has the highest absolute numbers of people receiving benefits. (and most of those folks, aren’t legal citizens)
    To qualify for SNAP, you have to be at or below the Federal poverty-level, which is roughly $11K a year, depending on State and location within a State.

  • Edward

    Lee S asked: “Does the US have food banks?

    Yes. Americans are charitable.

    But I predict an airplane crash

    Yes. The European Union does seem to be failing at avoiding tyranny.

    The United States broke from the United Kingdom because of tyranny, and ironically the UK is now breaking from the EU for similar reasons. I am optimistic for the UK, as it soon will be allowed to solve its own problems rather than rely upon solutions designed for other countries.

  • Col Beausabre

    According to the World Giving Index, the US is the second most charitable nation on Earth. Australia is 3, New Zealand 4, Canada 6 and the UK 8. Of the countries that like to criticize the US for being heartless, Germany is 21and France 81 (and yeah, I know, since they are socialistic, the government may pick up most of the slack. On the other hand, De Tocqueville noted in “Democracy in America” as far back as the 1830’s that Americans are much more likely than Europeans to form private associations to accomplish social objectives –

    https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-America-Essays-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140447601/ref=asc_df_0140447601/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583932699677085&psc=1)
    )

    One possible partial explanation for the high ranking of the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand is that they are descended from pioneer cultures where cooperation and caring for one another were essential to survival – government was too small and too far away for Dirigism to work (Imagine being in Oregon Territory in the1840’s and having to write to Washington to be told how to solve a problem)

  • Lee S

    Thanks for the info Wayne .. interesting…
    Edward… I never suggested Americans were not charitable… As I’ve said here many times, my trips to the states have left me with no illusions as to how nice, polite, welcoming and friendly you guys are .
    Col Beausabre… You are probably right… Living in a socialist country, we pay higher taxes, and expect the state to look after the worse off in society… Of course we step up when needed, but the whole point of socialism is the better off look after the worse off…. There should be no need for charity . Unfortunately real life doesn’t always work like that.
    ( I’m still happy to be living where I am though…. ;-) )

  • wayne

    Lee S.—
    –I should add– most of the distribution points for “food bank” food, are churches, as they generally have refrigeration and kitchens for prepared meals. Last time I accessed our local food bank was when I managed some (non profit) foster-care homes; dry non-perishable foodstuffs were charged to us at 25 cents a pound, and perishables were 45 cents a pound. (occasionally, we’d get Elk, Deer, and assorted game-animal meat harvested off Federal/State land, but that involved a whole other supply chain.)
    Bottom line from where I sit—nobody in America need go without a meal.
    As an anecdotal comment– way too many people who receive SNAP benefits, buy processed junk food, fizzy drinks, and snacks. (And…. the going rate on the street for your EBT card PIN number is about 50 cents on the dollar— I get my benefits loaded onto my card, you give me cash, I give you my PIN number, you use my EBT card for food, and then I go on-line and change my PIN, and then we do it all over again next month.

    I forget where you live (sorry)
    — Q: what ‘recreational’ drugs are legal in your Country, and is prostitution legal?
    (and while were at it– how much is a gallon of gasoline, a Hershey bar, a gallon of milk, a pack of smokes, and a fifth of whiskey?)

  • Edward

    Lee S wrote: “but the whole point of socialism is the better off look after the worse off…. There should be no need for charity .

    He and I disagree about the point of socialism, but using the same logic, the whole point of free market capitalism is for everyone to do his best so that there is virtually no need for charity. There is always such need, because everyone gets into a little trouble now and then. For instance, it is nice that people will stop to help a motorist stranded on the side of the road.

    Free markets allow for each person to find a niche in which he can make money providing goods or services that others are willing to pay for, even if that entails working at someone else’s company. Capitalism allows for people to pool their resources in order to do more than any one of them could do alone. Thus, everyone can do their best, or as groups they can do more than the sum of their best. This allows for so much prosperity that the well off (almost everyone) can easily look after those who are having trouble succeeding. No government intervention necessary, and the worse off are encouraged to become the well off, the ones who contribute the most to the overall prosperity. With so many contributing, prosperity increases. No wonder the United States is such a rich country.

    Under Lee S’s form of socialism, there is little incentive for the worse off to become better off, so instead of contributing soon to the prosperity they continue to drag down the prosperity. Unfortunately, real life works like that.

    No wonder the socialist countries do not become rich countries. No wonder that they need other people’s money. And because that is their whole purpose, no wonder they expect to receive other people’s money.

  • Lee S

    @wayne…. I live in Sweden…. Prostitution and recreational drugs are illegal here, but it’s not far to Denmark, where they are tolerated ;-)
    The rest of your questions I will have to open a few more tabs to convert both prices and sizes..
    Smokes… 6 – 7 dollars a pack..
    Milk is about 20:- for 1.5lt… so…about 5 bucks…
    Gas is between 6 and 7 dollars a gallon
    And a bottle of reasonable blended scotch whisky works out to about $25
    I can imagine these prices are pretty eye watering for you guys, but for comparison, the average MacDonalds worker over there gets c.9 bucks an hour, here it is c. 13 ( you can actually make a living wage working in a burger bar.)
    @Edward…. Why do you feel the need to constantly explain why your capitalist system and country is so much better than my country with it’s much more socialist system?
    Sweden consistently ranks in the top 20 richest countries in the world, and are absolutely a net giver on the world stage, so I find your last comment confusing …. Perhaps you are confusing us with one of those psudo-democratic socialist countries you have to the south of you… If you look at a map and head right and up a bit, you will find a small collection of little countries known as Scandinavia… (Norway, Sweden, Finland and Danmark.. ) we are all socialist from a US perspective, and all doing pretty well thank you…

  • Lee S

    @Wayne…. A couple of side notes… ( Before I was distracted by Edwards constant belittling of where I choose to live..)
    Elk and deer available at food banks!! Perhaps I should move over there!! My ex-father in law is a hunter up in the frozen north of Sweden, so we had a nice supply of elk, deer, and boar … Alas the supply dried up after our divorce ..
    Regarding the welfare system here, I have never used it more than parental leave, ( it pays 80% of your wage ), subsidized child care ( which encourages parents to get back to work…. Apparently it’s quite a large plus to the economy in that way), and as a single parent with 2 kids I recieve about 70 bucks a month towards my rent, which is a little over 600 US a month for a small 2 room apartment
    I believe that if you are unemployed, the state pays rent and utilities directly, then they work out the minimum you need to get thru the month, and that is what you receive. It is not a position of comfort to be unemployed, hence I pay an extra premium every month to my union for unemployment insurance which will cover me for a year at 80% of my wage for one year should I lose my job. I have not been unemployed for more than a couple of weeks in my 40 plus years in the job market, so I hope I will never need this… But after 50…. Well, it don’t get easier….
    I also pay into the state pension fund, which my employer tops up a little, so I hope when I retire ( at 65…. But I believe unless they make private arrangements, my kids will have to work until 70…) I can have a decent quality of life.
    I drive a fork lift for a living these days… Not the best carrier in the world… But as they say, it pays the bills.
    I hope I’ve given you guys a little snapshot into pinko commie Sweden…. Like everywhere it has its faults… But I like it!

  • commodude

    Socialism isn’t about caring for others, socialism is about power and maintenance of the aristocracy. What I give freely you will never get through the coercion of the power of the state. Charity is about helping the less fortunate, socialism is about ensuring there is a permanent underclass so those in power can maintain that power.

  • wayne

    Lee S–
    Ok, Sweden. (I sorta co-mingle all those little homogenous quasi-socialist countries together, excuse my Jingoism!)
    –I thought Mary-Jane & prostitution were legal in Sweden, but maybe I’m thinking of Holland.
    (prostitution is legal in a few Counties in Nevada, but not Los Vegas itself.)
    Michigan=
    Brand name smokes – $9.15
    Ounce (28 grams) of “recreational” Mary Jane = $200-400, depending on quality.
    (illicit generic 5mg hydrocodone tablets are now $10 each, thanks to the War on Painkillers.)
    Gallon of Milk = $2.00 (currently)
    Gallon of gasoline= $2.209 (been dropping considerably the past month)
    Hershey Bar = .99 (Hershey just pushed through a price increase that finally made itself evident.) (but still .88 cents at Walmart) ((live better, spend less))

    commodude–
    Good stuff.

  • Lee S

    Interesting smokes are cheaper here…. Weed is very much the same price…. Roughly 10 bucks a gram… A candy bar is about the same… 50cents to 2 dollars depending on size and brand… ( We don’t have Hershey here…. But then I guess you don’t have Kex either.. lol)
    @commodude… You are another that feels the need to explain why the social system I live under is worthless… What on earth is you guys problem?
    Because I like the system I live under, it is not a critique of your system…
    You don’t like socialism, I think I have got the point by now…. Can we please just give it a rest…. I really can’t be arsed to argue… For citizens of a country that supposedly believes in freedom, can’t I have the right to live where I do ( a country which the VAST majority of US citizens will never visit, and which most don’t even know the location of) without constant criticism?
    I enjoy intelligent discourse, and it is interesting to discuss differences between countries, but a little more open mindedness and a little less knee jerk antisocialist ranting would be nice

  • Questioner

    Lee:

    I agree with Commodude on socialism. It is exactly the same as with climate hysteria. It is about gaining and maintaining political power.

    Say, why does the Swedish people still allow this current Swedish regime, which is satanic and fundamentally evil and also hates its own indigenous people and history, to remain in power? Swedish man, bring the Viking to new life in you!

  • Questioner

    Lee:

    This great production may stimulate and exalt your buried Viking soul.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ZqZVunCb4

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You asked: “Why do you feel the need to constantly explain why your capitalist system and country is so much better than my country with it’s much more socialist system?

    I’m bragging, just like you.

    Sweden consistently ranks in the top 20 richest countries in the world, and are absolutely a net giver on the world stage, so I find your last comment confusing …. Perhaps you are confusing us with one of those psudo-democratic socialist countries you have to the south of you…

    As I like to point out, one of the themes of socialists is that socialism has to start with capitalism in order to work. This is because it needs plenty of other people’s money in order to survive any length of time (ask the Plymouth Colony Pilgrims, from 1620). Sweden is one such ex-free-market-capitalist country, using the past assets that were earned by their ancestors, but she has starting to revert back toward free market capitalism, now that she is beginning to have trouble.

    In addition, you have relied upon a lot of U.S. gifts (apparently, that counts as “a net giver” in your world), such as the development of new pharmaceuticals that are then sold to your country for the cost of manufacture, without amortizing the high cost of development — U.S. citizens pay more for these pharmaceuticals in order for the inventor to recoup this expense. You’re welcome. You and the rest of Europe also rely upon the U.S. for defense at our expense, not yours. Again, you are welcome.

    I believe that my subsidization of your lifestyle entitles me to criticize the place you choose to live. I pay quite a price for that right. If only the place you choose to live were productive enough to not need my subsidies then we both could live better.

    So enjoy your high prices and your careers as burger flippers (in the U.S. that is a starter job for teenagers, not a lifelong living-wage job). We Americans will continue to supply you with one of the purposes of government (protection from foreign enemies) and to develop health supplies that you need, among other things. We, on the other hand, still have enough people in the work force to develop and produce all that extra stuff that you, the rest of Scandinavia, and the rest of Europe take for granted. You’re welcome.

    The world would be so much better if everyone pulled their weight. There would be even more goods and services for all, more prosperity, and more happiness. What a nice world that would be.

    which encourages parents to get back to work…. Apparently it’s quite a large plus to the economy in that way

    That was my point. It is better for everyone to be productive than to have many live off the largess of the rest.

    as a single parent with 2 kids I recieve about 70 bucks a month towards my rent, which is a little over 600 US a month for a small 2 room apartment

    I hope you meant that as past tense, not present tense.

    commodude has it right when he points out that “Socialism isn’t about caring for others, socialism is about power and maintenance of the aristocracy.

    You see, Lee S, you think that socialism is all about gimme-ism. It gives you benefits that you do not earn on your own. But someone has to earn them, so you are not as independent as you think. As the socialist system encourages, you do just enough work and take what you are entitled to. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” You described that socialist aphorism very well.

    You have a relationship with your government in which it is an ersatz parent, which makes sure that you have the minimum of what you need — which sounds like a terrible situation. Why can’t you earn and save enough by yourself in order to cover your own periods of unemployment? I do. I even have saved enough to retire on.

    This is why I brag about America and point out the pitfalls of your socialism. You “can have a decent quality of life” and “like it,” but you fail to see that it is at the expense of others. Specifically: me. You’re welcome. Meanwhile, I and my fellow countrymen are so productive that you can have a decent lifestyle (you’re welcome), I can have a good lifestyle, and I can still save plenty for retirement. All three at the same time. What a country! That Social(ist) (In)Security crap that my government foists upon me is hardly enough for anyone to retire on, but why should I be dependent upon other people’s money, anyway?

    I have digressed from commodude’s comment. Socialism is just another form of monarchy, where the luxury is spread out among the substitute royals and aristocracy, and just enough dregs are passed out to the peons to keep them mollified, so that they don’t rebel. This is what happens in every socialist society.

    Go ahead and enjoy your system. We Americans will continue subsidizing it. You’re welcome. Then, one day, your system will collapse on your children, and they will have to live with whatever consequences came from your minimal effort but decent lifestyle. This is what happens in every socialist society.

    I, on the other hand, will continue to enjoy my system and brag that it encourages innovation, efficiency, and the disruption of accepted methods and technologies with improvements that benefit the whole world. A system that rewards me well for employing free market capitalism to improve not only my own lifestyle but the lifestyles of those who choose to buy the products I helped develop or improve (free market) or that I help finance (capitalism). A place where hard work, smarter work, talent, skills, and innovation are encouraged and well rewarded. A place where five percent of the world’s population comes up with far more than its share of innovations, improvements in efficiency, and overall productivity than virtually all other places in the world.

    In fact, in my country teenagers start out with low-wage burger-flipper type of jobs and are expected to learn the skills to improve into better jobs, better careers, and even to start companies that improve upon products or that innovate new products.

    My country makes the world a better place to live in. Including Sweden.

    You’re welcome.

  • commodude

    Lee S,

    My problem is simple:

    You and your ilk promote the cancer of serfdom by a different name. Regardless of what you call it, it is simply a rehash of the feudal system, where the lords care for the serfs who are bound to them. The selection of the Lords is accomplished via different means, however, the reality of the system is the same.

    Europe would prefer that the US “enjoy” the same servitude that they promote and cannot understand why citizens of a country respond with such opprobrium. We defend our citizenship with vigor, and react in a very negative manner when someone attempts to promote serfdom as a positive manner of life.

  • Lee S

    Apparently I did not make my point clear enough…
    I am sick and tired of repeating the same point….
    I have occasionally pointed out the flaws in the American system, but I have never claimed that the Swedish system is perfect either.
    What I do NOT need is a constant lecture about how the mighty US of A is so superior to little old socialist Sweden…
    The US in no way sponsors Sweden… We have enough tech companies, innovative drug development companies, and this one will be a surprise to you guys…. A profitable and thriving arms industry…. Oh, and we voted resolutely to keep out of NATO..
    EVERY SINGLE TIME I comment on anything political, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the US, even if I am careful not to upset your snowflake asses, I am drawn into this same old, same old argument.
    It’s like sharing a forum with a bunch of American Jihads..
    I like it where I live… I’m positive for the future here…. Ditto for you guys where you are…. We are not going to change anyone’s minds by writing 200 or 2000 words on why I, or you are wrong… So can we please stop with the lectures… If I wanted a lecture I would go back to school.

  • Lee S

    Acctually… No, I’m not finished… Having re-read the above comments, I have a couple of things left to say..
    commodude… I quote you … “You and your ilk promote the cancer of serfdom”
    Name calling and generalisation are both impolite and especially in this case, pure wrong.
    Edward… I quote…”You see, Lee S, you think that socialism is all about gimme-ism. It gives you benefits that you do not earn on your own.”
    How dare you tell me what I am thinking…. I pay what you guys over there would consider a massive amount of tax… As does every Swedish wage earner ( does 33% trigger you much? ). It is accepted because we all reap the benefits.
    Like I have said ad infinitum…. You have a different system… I actually understand your system. Unfortunately it seems you will never take the time or effort to understand the system I like living under.
    I have never said Americans are fools for living under a system you obviously are proud of, and enjoy. Could you please do me the honour of returning the favour?

  • commodude

    The US doesn’t sponsor Sweden?

    I beg to differ. Sweden is the worst sort of camp follower. They crow about not joining NATO, however, know full well that they live under the aegis of the alliance without contributing one sous to the combined defense. Your profitable and thriving arms industry needs to use NATO standard busses in their aircraft to make sales…..while claiming independence of NATO. The engines for your aircraft are license built copies of an American aircraft engine. Your land combat systems, with one exception, are extensions of NATO and allied power programs.

    As to your 33% tax rate….that’s what YOU pay….combined with the employer paying an additional 33% on top of that for social security, a corporate tax rate of 22%, The system you crow about is built on absolutely confiscatory taxes, and is nothing more than a modern version of serfdom. The Feudal lord is still there, he has just been replaced by the bureaucracy.

    You constantly crow about the benefits of the Swedish system, and have repeatedly called into question the morals of the United States. Questioning our charity, our support for those who NEED assistance, and have in the past crowed about your successful sponging off of the state. The US pays those bills, in the form of providing medical tech advances through our copays and pharma purchases, which subsidize your medical bills.

    As to the expletives and name calling in your post, I’ll leave that to Robert to deal with.

  • Questioner

    Wayne, Edward and Lee:

    Leading Libertarian Hans-Hermann Hoppe gives a lecture about the characteristics of American ideology and empire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGx7BkFNJCY&t=15s

  • wayne

    So To Speak™ 161 times
    Hans Hermann Hoppe
    https://youtu.be/ageItlYh1Mo
    2:10

  • wayne

    I can’t resist….

    Mengerville
    (Parody Alert)
    Hoppe Memes 2018
    https://youtu.be/swzMMCMlR0g
    2:03
    (extremely well done)

  • Questioner

    Wayne:

    Very funny stuff, thank you.

    Hans-Hermann Hoppe says there are about 180 millions Americans, which are state-depended.

    “Indicators of a degenerating (American) society”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xZe8zR14bE

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote: “EVERY SINGLE TIME I comment on anything political, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the US, even if I am careful not to upset your snowflake asses, I am drawn into this same old, same old argument. It’s like sharing a forum with a bunch of American Jihads.

    Goodness. Who is the snowflake, here?

    The US in no way sponsors Sweden.

    I used variations on the word “subsidize,” which we do — you merely do not realize or do not accept this unfortunate fact. commodude covered this topic, so moving on:

    What I do NOT need is a constant lecture

    But it is OK for you to keep handing me things that I don’t need? Does that seem fair to you?

    Besides, we did not “lecture” you until you wrote directly to us, by name, inviting us to respond to you. You dragged us into your same old argument. Why is a discussion a lecture? We respond to each other’s comments, but to you that seems to be a lecture. Or do you think that you are lecturing us with your own comments?

    According to your own “lecture,” “the whole point of socialism is the better off look after the worse off…. There should be no need for charity” You brought up how wonderful socialism is and how there should be no need for charity — implicitly because of socialism’s superiority over free market capitalism, where charity is necessary due to a lack of governmental parent-like care of each individual. Or were you not clear on that point, either?

    You, Lee S, got us started on this political subject, now you are complaining because we responded to your ludicrous statement. Are you complaining that I responded to your comment directly to me, or are you complaining because your system is not as good as mine, and you don’t want to be reminded?

    I like it where I live…

    I was explicit that you should, yet you seem to have a problem with that. Is there any satisfying you or are you like America’s Democrats, never satisfied even when they get all that they want (e.g. an impeached president — but now demand to run the Senate in order to guarantee yet another unfair hearing against the president)?

    I’m positive for the future here.

    I’m not positive for your children’s future. Why should I not be allowed to say so?

    We are not going to change anyone’s minds by writing 200 or 2000 words on why I, or you are wrong

    I gave up on that long ago. I’m just bragging about how much better my country is than your country, and explaining why my country’s system always works and your country’s system never does. Because your mind will not be changed, and you will not see the reality of your and your children’s situation, I said: “Go ahead and enjoy your system. We Americans will continue subsidizing it. You’re welcome.

    Oh! I get it now. You want your country’s system to work out but realize that it cannot. This gives you discomfort, and you don’t want to hear about it anymore. Some American universities have started setting up special areas with fluffy pets to help comfort their snowflakes. Perhaps you should try something like that.

    Name calling and generalisation are both impolite and especially in this case, pure wrong.

    The word “ilk” is name calling?

    How dare you tell me what I am thinking.

    I dare because these are the things that you, Lee S, tell me you are thinking. You tell me that they are part of the good things about your system. You tell me that they are things that you like about your system. If you aren’t thinking them, then why are you saying them?

    I pay what you guys over there would consider a massive amount of tax… As does every Swedish wage earner ( does 33% trigger you much? ).

    Combining California’s federal and state taxes is just about the same as yours for a middle class citizen.

    Unfortunately it seems you will never take the time or effort to understand the system I like living under.

    Contradicting all the times that I have explained your system to you. I understand it better than you do, have given you examples of its operations and results, but you refuse to bother to understand your own system and definitely refuse to understand why it fails every time it is tried.

    I have never said Americans are fools for living under a system you obviously are proud of, and enjoy. Could you please do me the honour of returning the favour?

    I never have called you a fool for living under your system or even for liking your system, and I would not expect you to call us fools for living under the best system found so far. Indeed, I have expressed my understanding for why you like your system, despite its ultimate failure every time it is used. Plenty of Americans would also like to live under your system, and for the very same reasons why you like it. But here I go again, daring to tell you what you think.

  • Lee S

    Edward…. I actually appreciate your point by point dissection of my comments… And I would love to respond to each … I feel your quotes of my words are taken out of of context… But it’s almost Christmas and it’s a time for love and understanding…. Please believe me when I say that we are different in attitude, and I think you are wrong , you think I am wrong… And that’s ok.

    “Contradicting all the times that I have explained your system to you. I understand it better than you do, have given you examples of its operations and results, but you refuse to bother to understand your own system and definitely refuse to understand why it fails every time it is tried”

    You can explain all you like…. And I’m sure you understand a situation looking from afar than someone with very litteral boots on the ground….
    ( This actually made me laugh…)
    Enjoy your life… I could explain to you what is wrong with the US system of government/life at length… But that would be both condescending and a waste of both our times.
    I have a good life, I’m happy to live where I live, and whatever your OPINION is doesn’t change a thing in real life…
    I wish all you guys a very merry Christmas, and let’s all hope for a peaceful and prosperous new year!

  • Lee S

    ( I’m sorry, I find it hard to keep my mouth shut when faced with such absolute nonsense…. ) The fact you think I relate or even care about your president and whatever happens to him proves my point about you blatent US centric view.
    I care very little about what happens “over the pond”…. It has very little to do with my life whatever happens… ( You can talk all you want about US rules the economy over here…. And it’s bullcrap.) Alhough I’m a bit annoyed by the pointless wars you dragged us into…. And the way both our country’s treat the veterans.
    Enjoy your life in the richest country in the world…. Where hundreds of thousands of people die every year…. From gun shots… From not being able to afford insulin for diabetes… For just not being able to afford medical aid… I have never said my world is perfect… It is not.
    But to be honest…. I am happy my children are growing up in Sweden….I have visited the states several times .. I have seen what is on offer for the poor guys who live in West Virginia, north Carolina, and I know where I would rather be living.
    Lecture me all you like…. But remember that folks in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

  • Lee S

    One last thing before I leave this thread behind….. You mentioned my “explanatives”, even though I have felt like swearing very much in this conversation, I like to think I’ve done a good job of keeping it family friendly… Please don’t accuse me of something I haven’t done….. It is not only rude, and untruthful, but also smacks a little bit of desperation… ;-)

  • wayne

    Ronald Reagan
    A Time For Choosing
    “You and I have a rendezvous with destiny”
    https://youtu.be/RhlvZlILQ6g
    3:45

  • Questioner

    Edward:

    You said that you worked in the aerospace industry. I think probably as a system or quality assurance engineer. I recognize this because you like to write a lot!

    You are probably an intelligent person. So I have to be very surprised that you let yourself be drunk by your own political propaganda of American ideology and ignore facts.

    I would now like to confront you with further facts. The United States is not a real democracy, but a plutocracy. The real power comes from the rich oligarchs who determine for example who will become president, among other things. The masses are manipulated and controlled in a targeted and skillful manner. The oligarchs’ media teach them what to think and believe. This is called directed or controlled “democracy”. The US economic system, particularly the financial sector, is also perverse and designed to take advantage of the lower and middle classes to make the super-rich even richer with the help of the Fed and the criminal money system. Unbelievable, but true: Three men (Bezos, Gates and Buffet) alone own as much as half of the Americans (160 million people) together!!!

    The American empire was built up on blood through an endless series of internal and external wars, aiming aggression, occupation, dominance and submission, as the following list shows.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_the_United_States

    The face of the world-policing American empire is ugly, like most American cities (but the American nature is beautiful). The majority of Americans work hard and are pragmatic, inventive, friendly and helpful, if a bit naive, especially in political terms. Anyway, I would buy a Swedish rather than an American car. The Swedish quality and longevity is just much better.

  • commodude

    Questioner, once again your political statements brush on certain theories and political bents which are both unwelcome and despicable.

    The Media isn’t the monolithic bloc you claim, and the influence they have gets weaker with every misstep. There are many venues to get news, CNN and MSNBC, for all the bluster, have little actual control, their audiences are minuscule with the democratization of the “press” given the reach of the internet.

    The banking sector is controlled by the government, were the not, then there are any number of protections would not exist. Your economic claims are lazy pap and agitprop.

    The United States is neither a democracy nor a plutocracy, both are inaccurate.

    It is a representative republic.

    The list of wars is wikipedia nonsense, as it is missing many conflicts from the Colonial period, lists many actions as “wars” when they were nothing more than anti-piracy actions, and lists internal spats as wars.

    As to cities, the ugliest cities I’ve been in were in Europe, if you wander away from the tourist paths and the centers of towns, they’re no better and in many cases worse than US cities.

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote: “And I’m sure you understand a situation looking from afar than someone with very litteral boots on the ground….

    America is more socialist than you realize, and each socialist portion of America is terrible (please substitute any series of BtB banned words you may choose, you get the idea) and reduces America’s ability to produce and to be a nice place to live. California is a fine example of a wonderful state that has been turned to turd. ( This actually does not make me laugh… I live here.)

    I could explain to you what is wrong with the US system of government/life at length…

    Is that because of your boots being on U.S. ground? I already know that you don’t like that it isn’t socialist enough for you.

    I have a good life, I’m happy to live where I live, and whatever your OPINION is doesn’t change a thing in real life…

    For the third time: yes, I know.

    You mentioned my “explanatives”,

    That must have been someone else who accused you of that, and in another thread, because a search did not come up with another instance of that word in this post and comment thread and this is the first time I have come across that word.

    I have felt like swearing very much in this conversation

    I guess that is a difference between us. You are frustrated with your system’s inability to last long, and I am comfortable with my system’s ability to last for centuries. You are frustrated with your system’s inability to find the right people to work it, and I am comfortable that my system works even when the wrong people work it, such as the Chinese and the Indians.

    Questioner,
    You wrote: “I think probably as a system or quality assurance engineer. I recognize this because you like to write a lot!

    To paraphrase Maxwell Smart, you missed it by that much. I write a lot because you and others do not understand the reality of situations or the real world. You make claims that miss reality, often by more than that much. It takes a lot of writing to explain reality, but it does not take much to present fantasy.

    I would now like to confront you with further facts. The United States is not a real democracy, but a plutocracy.

    So much for what you know, and now I am going to have to write a lot in order to explain it to you. Not that it will sink in any better than any other time we had similar discussions. *Sigh*

    You may think that it is a plutocracy, but it is not. Actually, it is a republic that we often call a democratic republic, because we elect our representatives rather than it being a system in which the representatives are decided by birthright or other method. Which reminds me, I do not recall saying that the U.S. is a democracy. A search came up with other people using that word, not me.

    However, if we apply the dictionary definition, we find that we really are a democracy:
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/democracy
    1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

    “2. a state having such a form of government:
    “The United States and Canada are democracies.”

    Oh! Look at that. Canada is a democracy, too. Who knew?

    The real power comes from the rich oligarchs who determine for example who will become president, among other things.

    Just because our representatives become rich after they have been elected to office does not mean that they rule. Over the past century, they have handed over much of their authority to bureaucrats who are not rich but now have the power to create rules and regulations that have the power of law.

    Those who are elected merely distract attention away from these real rulers. The impeachment debacle is a good example. The elected representatives make a show of it, but it is the unelected bureaucrats who did the frame-up for the president and other frame-ups for his assistants. It isn’t only the (In)Justice Department that has this amount of rule; in 2010 through 2012, it was Treasury Department bureaucrats who chose not to allow tax-favored status to non-Democratic Party groups.

    There is no real word for rule by bureaucrats, because “bureaucracy” has already been taken. But despite these bureaucrats, we are still a democratic republic.

    As for the rich who make campaign contributions or fund organizations that are intended to influence politics: they do not rule, they only make campaign contributions or fund organizations that are intended to influence politics. There is a difference between being a ruler and being a donor.

    We the People still elect our representatives, and our representatives still have not taken back their power from the bureaucrats, and the bureaucrats still have gotten away with abusing that power over the past decade.

    The US economic system, particularly the financial sector, is also perverse and designed to take advantage of the lower and middle classes to make the super-rich even richer yada yada yada.

    That’s right. The middle class is forced to buy products and services that they don’t want in order for the super duper rich to get superer duperer richerer.

    Come to think of it, that is exactly what Obamacare was intended to do, but the mandate was eliminated. So, in reality, we middle class still choose what goods and services we want, and in order to get them we are willing to pay companies that pay dividends to their owners.

    Three men (Bezos, Gates and Buffet) alone own as much as half of the Americans (160 million people) together!!!

    Considering that I have enough money saved up for retirement and that most Americans rent and otherwise have no assets, I own as much as the net worth of hundreds of thousands, or maybe even millions, of Americans. Big whoop. Save a dollar more than your credit card debt, and you can have a net worth greater than all those hundreds of thousands, or maybe even millions, who are under water on their credit cards, too. Or is the middle class use of credit cards also part of the criminal money system? Oooh. Let me look up the criminal code that makes it a crime.

    Oh, and by the way, Bezos, Gates, and Buffet do not do much of that power peddling. Soros is more active in that area.

    The American empire was built up on blood through an endless series of internal and external wars

    Pop quiz: name three countries that are war-free.

    That was a nice list. I didn’t get very far before I realized that it was not a list of wars involving the United States, because it lists wars that predate the U.S.

    It is ever so kind of you to use against the United States’s its own generosity in helping the United Nations and other nations in their own conflicts, equating those conflicts and saving the world from two world wars (we got dragged into them when our ships were attacked) as being “aggression, occupation, dominance and submission.” Are the rest of your “further facts” just as bogus?

    Why, yes. They are.

    The face of the world-policing American empire is ugly, like most American cities

    You are thinking of American cities controlled by Democrats, like San Francisco and its feces-filled streets. Or Chicago with its Monday morning tally of weekend shootings. Wait, isn’t Chicago supposed to be a gun-free zone? Or Detroit, whose population is half what it was when the Democrats took over from the Republicans, in 1960, and declared it the Democrats’s “model city.” While Detroit declined, the rest of the country grew. What a model city: a model of Democratic urban failure.

    Questioner, America does not fit the definition of “empire.” I discussed that in another thread. Which I’m sure you read, but ignored because it did not fit your warped world view.

    I would buy a Swedish rather than an American car.

    That’s OK. I buy Japanese. The quality and longevity is even better still.

    Did I just suggest that America is not perfect? Oh, the horror. The Horror! How will I ever live down not living in a perfect country?

    You are probably an intelligent person.

    Probably, but I don’t come close to nearly being almost as smart as I think I am. But that still leaves plenty of room for me to be the smartest person in the world. ;-)

  • Lee S

    Quote. “I guess that is a difference between us. You are frustrated with your system’s inability to last long, and I am comfortable with my system’s ability to last for centuries. You are frustrated with your system’s inability to find the right people to work it, and I am comfortable that my system works even when the wrong people work it, such as the Chinese and the Indians.”
    Your presumptions regarding how and what I think are both insulting and wrong…
    I’m frustrated by you inability to understand that your world view is totally US centric, and not necessarily correct…
    As I’ve stated over and over… Yes, I have been to your country, I have seen how it works, I’ve met wonderful people and always had a blast… And I still would prefer to live in Sweden.
    Have you ever left the shores of the country you defend with mouth frothing determination? I somehow doubt it… And if I’m correct, I suggest you have a trip to Europe… Come to Sweden… See how this country us failing… Have a look at fantastic architecture built before a white man ever built anything in North America. I will even buy you a beer.
    Edward, with every long rambling post you make, you just prove yourself more ignorent of the larger world, and more insular in your thinking…. Over here in Europe we have had a bumpy but consistent civilization dating back litteraly thousands of years… The US has a handful of hundreds. Do not dare to lecture me on who’s system is better…. Give it another 700 years and then you may.
    ( Just for giggles, are you aware that the whole of Europe is currently laughing at your current president? , It’s a shame, but your homeland has descended into a comedy show…. I guess your not laughing, but if I had.the misfortune to live over there I probably wouldn’t be laughing either)
    Excuse my typos …. I meant explatives… Calling me out over an autocorrect mistake doesn’t further your argument.
    The fact you can’t see further than the end of your nose saddens me…. Come and visit one of our European democracys… You might be supprised… And I will honour my promise to buy you a REAL beer ( excuse me, but good American beers are hard to find… An opinion that was shared by every Yank I’ve ever met…) ;-)

  • commodude

    Very simply, Lee S cannot understand the individualistic traits that are heavily bred into Americans. Appalachia is what it is because the people largely refuse government assistance, not because it hasn’t been offered. They’re proud, stubborn, and distrust outsiders, and their definition of outsiders is someone from the next holler over, nevermind a government agent attempting to assist.

    Assistance is available for many things, but forced on no adult. Choices are made, the people own them, and move on.

    Much like city mouse, country mouse, Lee cannot and will never understand the choices made daily in the US, as he has welcomed cradle to grave assistance from the government, where many in the places he cites would prefer death over living through government handouts.

    As to the offer to visit Sweden, I’ve been to Europe, spent time in Paris, Berlin, Mannheim, Heidelberg, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Salzburg, Amsterdam, and other places. I’ll take the US, thank you. The lack of good beer is rapidly changing, thankfully. It wasn’t driven by government mandate, it was driven by consumers.

    My family left Sweden 120 years ago, and while a visit as a tourist might be in the cards at some point, I’ll take citizenship in the US over servitude in Europe.

  • Lee S

    commodude, I do get it…. I have constantly mentioned my trips to the US, and my deep and long conversations with the good folk I met, proud and stubborn… And I was impressed by the support system which has evolved organically…. Bob was unemployed after a car accident, but did repair work for Shilo, who in return gave his kids the extra tuition they needed, etc etc etc…
    It works…. Mostly. I was less impressed with the amount of amputees I met because they couldn’t afford the insulin they needed to treat their diabetes. Most of the folk I met in WV would literally rather lose a limb than have government help them out.
    Every one here seems to think I am some kind of blinded fool that doesn’t understand that I’m living under some sort of fascist regime… Please believe me when I say this could not be further from the truth. I genuinely do understand the pros and cons of the US’s way of life, and the left leaning European countries way of life.
    And I prefer to live in Sweden. Heavy taxes, more restrictions than any of you guys would be comfortable with, but also a social safety net that ensures no one gets left behind.
    Edward… You mentioned earlier that you had enough saved for for your retirement… Good for you.. but how about the good people of Mannington, West Virginia, a CITY of 6000 people? No industry left, and full of grand old wooden houses rotting and falling to pieces… The largest employer these days is wallmart…. What about the 40 year olds working flipping burgers? Not because it’s the first step in the ladder, but it’s the only step on the ladder.
    As I said… I have no illusions… My eyes are wide open… I am well read, and very well traveled, the only continent I have left to visit is Australia, and I always travel with the intent to meet and get to know the local people, never to just be a “tourist”…
    Good folk of “behind the black”… I have been accused so many times in this thread of not understanding this, that, or that other, please grant me the intelligence that I do understand, and I still prefer to live in Sweden.

  • Lee S

    Stopping moaning for a second, commodude, Im impressed with your list of European destinations… I’ve done all except for Mannheim…. Salzburg is far and away the most beautiful, I hope you got chance to visit the eagles nest … Truly stunning, and kind of amusing that Hitler’s summer house is now a restaurant!
    Berlin had the best sausage, their hotdogs beat American, English, and Swedish with a large stick!
    Should you decide to visit your ancestral homeland, let me know .. I live a little north of Stockholm, and would be glad to give you a tour around with a bit of local knowledge… It’s actually a beautiful city… And in my experience, when you meet someone that you have only argued with on the interwebs face to face… It tends to be much more civil.. and much more fun!
    Merry Christmas guys!

  • wayne

    TURN: Washington’s Spies
    Washington receives the British surrender at Yorktown
    https://youtu.be/iaFRnSmat3o
    2:49

  • Lee S

    Jeez…. You guys like to go on a bit about us Brits letting you keep your colony…. Get over yourselves already…. ;-)
    Indeed…. Why don’t you make a holiday out of it…. Like Christmas… With turkey and stuff… But without the religion.. ( separation of church and state..)?
    Oh…. Hang on….
    Yes, I’m prodding your American asses… And yes it’s in good humour… When all is said and done I believe in the right to freedom and to free speech as much as you guys…
    We have different ideas how government should work… And we live under the government’s we prefer .. it’s a big world and there is room for us all.
    I wish our host, and all the argumentative buggers I have been arguing with, and any silent bystanders, the best, and happiest of Christmases…. And a very happy new year…. ( Let’s hope we see a private manned launch in 2020… It’s about time!)

  • Questioner

    Lee:

    I think you have illusions about your sick country, which in 30-40 years’ time will be only named as Sweden. If we would be alive at this time, we will hardly remember to that indigenous Sweden that existed until recently. A major part of the Swedish population will then be of non-European origin. What is changing, for example, with mass immigration, especially from Muslim Third World countries, that your radical left-wing government makes possible, shows the development of the number of rapes and other forms of violence:

    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/rape-statistics-in-sweden-von-1975-2018.3899445/

    By the way, my criticism of America’s hegemonic imperial system, which is controlled by a super-wealthy elite, which supports globalism, mass immigration, ethnic destruction and cultural degeneracy, does not mean that I support Sweden’s socialist or better radical left-wing regime and an important role for the government in everybody’s life. No, I generally reject all. It has long been clear that “socialism” (like democracy, by the way) only works at the size of a village in which everyone knows everyone and abuses of social benefits etc. are immediately and personally sanctioned. I support the right of every free man to own and carry weapons, and I also want the least possible rights of the government, which should generally be limited to internal and external security.

    Merry Christmas! Btw, are there any Sweden left, who believes in God? What about you?

  • Lee S

    Questioner, thanks for clarifying your point of view…. Come and visit me in my bath chair in 30 years and we can discuss what our countries have become… ( I stand a half decent chance of still being alive because I can afford my insulin, unlike my fellow American diabetics…)
    I absolutely disagree with the right of everyone to carry a gun… Own one, for legitimate reasons… Yes… Carry one because some guys a few hundred years ago said it was ok?… Not so much ( the gun death figures speak for themselves. I can get behind almost everything I’ve been lectured about in this thread, but your gun laws are crazy… To be fair, it is way to late to put the genie back in the bottle… And I have no answer… I do know that the answer to gun crime is not more guns…
    ( You should know that the rest of the world shakes its head in disbelief when talking about the US and guns…. I know it’s written into you guys blood…. But that doesn’t make it sensible or right….)
    And you are correct… I am a godless atheist… Because I refuse to bow down to anything that would allow hundreds of innocent children to die of childhood cancer this week, or any week…
    Oh my…. I have said enough to send most of the active users here into cardiac arrest…
    Anticipating the deluge of abuse I’m about to recieve, may I wish you all a very merry Christmas, and my invite is open to one and all…. Come and visit pinko commie Stockholm, Sweden, and I will take you on a tour of the 1000 year old city … Just let me know….
    I wish you all a happy and safe festive season…

  • wayne

    Lee S–
    Thanksgiving was the Pilgrims (our modern version of Thanksgiving was proclaimed for all states in 1863 by Abraham Lincoln,) we celebrate Independence Day on the 4th of July, and then we made Britain let us keep our little Colony.

    Meanwhile, in the Multiverse, it’s getting weirder….

    Man in the High Castle Season 4
    https://youtu.be/taSKU3IXHSc
    3:19

  • Lee S

    @wayne.. that both made me laugh and blew my mind a little👍👍👍 nice 9ne👍👍👍

  • Questioner

    Wayne:

    I assume you like Dr. Paul Gottfried, the grandfather of Paleoconservatism. By the way, he believes Trump is the best president since Eisenhower!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQFVzzIx5RA

    A comment on Gottfried from that link: “Paul Gottfried is the most valued scholar of the real American right. The man is really brilliant and I owe a lot to my work from my own intellectual and political journey.”

    I agree to full extent.

  • Edward

    I’m frustrated by you inability to understand that your world view is totally US centric, and not necessarily correct…

    I fully understand that free market capitalism, which you believe to be “US centric,” works every time it is tried and that socialism, your Sweden-centric world view, fails every time it is tried. This is what frustrates you.

    In the meantime, I have been very open to you living as you like, and I even volunteered to continue subsidizing your lifestyle. Is that being U.S.-centric?

    “As I’ve stated over and over…”

    I have agreed with you every time you state these. Is my agreement with your statements also frustrating you? I could start to disagree, if that makes you feel better.

    Have you ever left the shores of the country you defend with mouth frothing determination? I somehow doubt it…

    Yes. Once again, your assumptions are wrong.

    Come to Sweden… See how this country us failing… Have a look at fantastic architecture built before a white man ever built anything in North America.

    Which is also before socialism began its insidious destruction of your way of life. Your socialism is not nearly as old as your fantastic architecture or civilization.

    Over here in Europe we have had a bumpy but consistent civilization dating back litteraly thousands of years… The US has a handful of hundreds. Do not dare to lecture me on who’s system is better…. Give it another 700 years and then you may.

    Oh! So, because my country is not as old, I am not allowed to make observations about how various economic and political systems work or fail? According to this new rule of yours, I can never be right and you can never be wrong, no matter the actual facts on the ground. Nice of you to hold me to such restrictive terms.

    My takeaway is that you have no counterarguments to my facts.

    Just for giggles, are you aware that the whole of Europe is currently laughing at your current president?

    Yet another example of your inability to argue the facts.

    explatives

    So that makes your sentence: “You mentioned my ‘expletives.'” I don’t know when I mentioned those, and I’m not sure that you used any expletives, so far. In reviewing this thread, the closest I come is you thinking commodude’s use of the work “ilk” is name calling.

    Calling me out over an autocorrect mistake doesn’t further your argument.

    Well, I’ll have to take up mind reading in order to make sure I don’t make that mistake again. Neither my previous comment on the topic nor this comment are intended to further my argument. They are just clarifications and action items for future error prevention.

    Come and visit one of our European democracys… You might be supprised…

    Surprised by what? That democracy works better than socialism and communism?

    excuse me, but good American beers are hard to find… An opinion that was shared by every Yank I’ve ever met

    That explains why I do not like beer.

    Mostly. I was less impressed with the amount of amputees I met because they couldn’t afford the insulin they needed to treat their diabetes.

    We’ve already had this discussion a few months ago. American medications cost more because we subsidize the medications that go out to the rest of the world. You’re welcome. Of course, Lee S, you have seen part of the cost of your subsidized medicines. Not all of it is financial.

    but how about the good people of Mannington, West Virginia, a CITY of 6000 people? No industry left, and full of grand old wooden houses rotting and falling to pieces…

    This is what free market capitalism is all about. It is what liberty is all about. All of them are free to move to locations that have better paying jobs and better lifestyles. They are also free to remain where they are. Once again, you do not seem to understand that the condition that you find them in is their own choice, made freely, by them. Yet you complain as though you disagree with their choice. Does everyone have to make the same choices that you would make under similar conditions?

    I made my own choices, perhaps for different reasons. I chose to save for retirement (I have a cousin who didn’t), but I also chose to continue to live in the increasingly socialist California, just as they chose to remain in Mannington. You chose to live in Sweden. I have not complained about your choice, I complain about the system that you think works. It appears to work now, but only because others pay for it, sometimes with cash, sometimes with arms or legs.

    You say that you understand and thus prefer to live in Sweden, yet you complain when I inform you that you live so well due to the subsidies supplied by others, so you do not seem to understand as well as you think.

    the gun death figures speak for themselves. I can get behind almost everything I’ve been lectured about in this thread, but your gun laws are crazy

    Actually, the latest gun laws are crazy. The death figures are highest in gun-free zones, such as Chicago, and tend to be lower in gun-rich environments, such as Plano Texas. Lee S, you see America as homogeneous, so you miss the nuances of these two different cultures inside America, making you think that guns are the problem when the reality is that in the hands of the good guys they are the solution.

    Please do not complain about my long responses to your comments when you make so many comments on so many different topics. Now you have added yet another topic to the discussion. To avoid taking you out of context, I include your own quotes. However, if you are indeed being taken out of context then many of those quotes must be wrong. Do you or do you not need a constant lecture and like it where you live, and are you or are you not positive for the future there?

    Anticipating the deluge of abuse I’m about to recieve …

    So, do you see responses to your comments as abuse? Does this mean that in your world view we are not allowed to discuss our differing world views? If you believe responses to comments are abuse, then do you intend to be abusive when you respond to our comments? I didn’t get the impression that you were trying to abuse us at all.

    This has been an education.

  • wayne

    In Our Hands:
    “How to Lose What We Have.”
    Part 3 (1950)
    https://youtu.be/8UFYluWMDiM
    11:53

  • Questioner

    Wayne,

    the film is not entirely honest. Even then, only a few – like today – super-rich determined the country’s fate. Similar to the movie, but for a different reason, normal Americans today are forced to move around the states very often and cannot take root because they need a new job. Incidentally, America was a socialist state then and now in terms of its most important capital, money. I am talking about state-controlled money socialism, which was finally introduced in 1913 with the FED.

    By the way, a nation can not only define itself through its economic system and some legal principles, as you and your friends imagine. A real nation is primarily a community of common culture, origin, heritage and destiny. This is the only justification for certain taxation and redistribution for charitable and national purposes, which must be very limited.

  • Edward

    Lee S,
    You wrote: “Over here in Europe we have had a bumpy but consistent civilization dating back litteraly thousands of years… The US has a handful of hundreds. Do not dare to lecture me on who’s system is better…. Give it another 700 years and then you may.

    By this standard, your system is not so old, compared to free market capitalism, the pooling of resources in a free market. Does this mean that you do not get to comment on your socialist system until it is as old as mine?

    Europe’s heritage is monarchies. These go farther back than either capitalism or socialism, but just because it is old does not mean that it is better. In fact, isn’t Europe moving in the direction of democracies as well as socialism? Aren’t these supposed to be better than the ancient monarchies? Since monarchy is so old, and socialism is so young, are you only allowed to comment on monarchies and not socialism? I mean, you wouldn’t dare lecture otherwise, would you? Are we not allowed to assess whether new systems do better than the older ones?

    Since you use your Euro-centric viewpoint to complain about me having a U.S.-centric viewpoint, shouldn’t we acknowledge that the U.S.’s constitution is the oldest government in existence in the world? So, maybe I do have the right to dare lecture you on who’s is better.

    Now that this is probably my last opportunity to wish you a merry Christmas, or happy Christmas, depending, I now wish you a happy and merry day.

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