GAO finds continuing budget and scheduling problems for NASA’s big projects
A new Government Accountability Office (GAO) report released yesterday revealed that the ongoing budget overruns and scheduling delays for NASA’s big projects have continued, and in some cases worsened in the past year.
The cost and schedule performance of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s (NASA) portfolio of major projects continues to deteriorate. For this review, cost growth was 27.6 percent over the baselines and the average launch delay was approximately 13 months, the largest schedule delay since GAO began annual reporting on NASA’s major projects in 2009.
This deterioration in cost and schedule performance is largely due to integration and test challenges on the James Webb Space Telescope (see GAO-19-189 for more information). The Space Launch System program also experienced significant cost growth due to continued production challenges. Further, additional delays are likely for the Space Launch System and its associated ground systems. Senior NASA officials stated that it is unlikely these programs will meet the launch date of June 2020, which already reflects 19 months of delays. These officials told GAO that there are 6 to 12 months of risk associated with that launch date. [emphasis mine]
The Trump administration has made it clear to NASA’s bureaucracy that it expects SLS to meet the June 2020 deadline, or it will begin the process of ending the program and replacing it with private rockets. This GAO report suggests that this threat is almost certain to be carried out.
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
A new Government Accountability Office (GAO) report released yesterday revealed that the ongoing budget overruns and scheduling delays for NASA’s big projects have continued, and in some cases worsened in the past year.
The cost and schedule performance of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s (NASA) portfolio of major projects continues to deteriorate. For this review, cost growth was 27.6 percent over the baselines and the average launch delay was approximately 13 months, the largest schedule delay since GAO began annual reporting on NASA’s major projects in 2009.
This deterioration in cost and schedule performance is largely due to integration and test challenges on the James Webb Space Telescope (see GAO-19-189 for more information). The Space Launch System program also experienced significant cost growth due to continued production challenges. Further, additional delays are likely for the Space Launch System and its associated ground systems. Senior NASA officials stated that it is unlikely these programs will meet the launch date of June 2020, which already reflects 19 months of delays. These officials told GAO that there are 6 to 12 months of risk associated with that launch date. [emphasis mine]
The Trump administration has made it clear to NASA’s bureaucracy that it expects SLS to meet the June 2020 deadline, or it will begin the process of ending the program and replacing it with private rockets. This GAO report suggests that this threat is almost certain to be carried out.
On Christmas Eve 1968 three Americans became the first humans to visit another world. What they did to celebrate was unexpected and profound, and will be remembered throughout all human history. Genesis: the Story of Apollo 8, Robert Zimmerman's classic history of humanity's first journey to another world, tells that story, and it is now available as both an ebook and an audiobook, both with a foreword by Valerie Anders and a new introduction by Robert Zimmerman.
The ebook is available everywhere for $5.99 (before discount) at amazon, or direct from my ebook publisher, ebookit. If you buy it from ebookit you don't support the big tech companies and the author gets a bigger cut much sooner.
The audiobook is also available at all these vendors, and is also free with a 30-day trial membership to Audible.
"Not simply about one mission, [Genesis] is also the history of America's quest for the moon... Zimmerman has done a masterful job of tying disparate events together into a solid account of one of America's greatest human triumphs."--San Antonio Express-News
Budget and scheduling problems? You can throw that right out of the window. Why? Because Socialism is going to have to supplant every and all things.
Supplant: To supersede (another) especially by force or treachery
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/446287-ocasio-cortez-housing-should-be-legislated-as-a-human-right
“We have to make sure that housing is being legislated as a human right,” she could be seen saying in videos from the event. “What does that mean? What it means is that our access and our ability and our guarantee to having a home comes before someone else’s privilege to earn a profit.”
(As she proposes and shares more and more of her insane indoctrinated Socialist / Fascistic thoughts she gets cuter and cuter to me (?). She has those great eyebrows. Is it just me?)
Space exploration? You can forget about it all in the future if these 30 somethings of today truly become empowered.
I’d been thinking that it was about time to announce new delays on the James Webb telescope. Nobody’s stepping up to make a SWAG about that, yet.
Diane Wilson: Take a look at the GAO report. Your wishes have been fulfilled.
@ Cotour
That is called a “straw man” argument.
I fail to see what someone calling for every fellow human to have the right to a roof over their head ( which being the pinko commie that I am, I agree with)… has the very slightest to do with the over budget James Webb or SLS..
( It doesn’t…. TBF)
As Bob rightly points out, it’s all about pork for your politicians states… And I believe this is a very partisan problem.
I’m trying to restrict my replies to space related posts… Throwing out your opinion on a completely unrelated topic is uneeded..
Rant away on the political posts.. but this post has nothing to do with the opinions of a possible politician you disagree with.
Lee S: The point is, and I know the subject does not seem related, if people like AOC, Pink like you, become empowered over time there will be no need to worry about space, or fighter planes, or aircraft carriers, or the amount of CO2 in the air, or anything else.
Do you get it? If just being born gives you the RIGHT to healthcare, and housing, and food and an Iphone, and a car, and everything else these people who think should be a right then the need to worry about all else is irrelevant.
I know that you do not understand that completely, and I do throw these seemingly non sequitur’s in the mix now and they seem not related, but they are related. Trust me.
PS: A RIGHT is something that protects an individual FROM government. RIGHTS are not things that are given out like candy upon birth. What does being born have to do with the right to housing? Isn’t that a function of the two people who have come together and have created that life to supply that housing?
This, like I have pointed out previously, is a fundamental problem of thinking. And you are correct you do not fully understand the American thought process. Your irrational “compassion” threatens to destroy everything. But you will at least feel good about it, at least until just before it all blows up.
If my understanding is correct, by 2020, they need to have four cores under various stages of construction, with one finished, in order to meet the timeline. IIRC, they only have enough left over engines for 3 cores, so the fourth core that will have to begin construction right around 2020 will be using new engines.
Would they cancel SLS while cores are being built, before the new engines are made, or after SLS used up the left over engines? I don’t know but if they did fly SLS three times, that would be the mini-Gateway and one humanned lunar landing.
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Photo1-Copy-2.jpg
@ Contour…
Quote…
“What does being born have to do with the right to housing? Isn’t that a function of the two people who have come together and have created that life to supply that housing?”
This sounds rather extreme….
Isn’t the very idea of a civilised civilization that it protects it’s weaker members?
The fact you consider someone down on their luck not worthy of the basic right to shelter, and your fine with this opinion makes me pleased I live where I do, and not somewhere that opinion is tolerated.
Lee S wrote: “Isn’t the very idea of a civilised civilization that it protects it’s weaker members?”
The weaker members, yes, but someone who is down on his luck needs to get help from his local church until his luck changes.
The very idea of a civilization is that all the members contribute. Otherwise it is not so civilized and acts as a welfare state, coddling the able but lazy among them, encouraging them to remain lazy. If civilization does not require all members to contribute, a huge portion becomes lazy (ask the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony how that turned out, or rather ask the half that lived through the disastrous results of their socialist experiment).
How greedy are the lazy ones who live off the work of others? How many billionaires are lazy and how many are hard-working self-starting and self-made? How many of the weaker and even the lazy live better lives because of those hard-working, self-starting, self-made billionaires?
Civilizations do not thrive on those who are down on their luck, and those who are down on their luck are ill prepared to protect civilization’s weaker members.
The story of the Little Red Hen shows the value of work over the non-productivity of play.
https://www.enchantedlearning.com/stories/fairytale/littleredhen/story/
When there is work to be done, those who are down on their luck just got lucky, can stop being a drain on everyone else, and can help support the weaker members.
Absolutely protect the weaker numbers of a civilization, but not by creating out of thin air “RIGHTS” to housing. Housing is not a right. You could choose to supply low cost housing or subsidized housing, but its not a right. Just like healthcare is not a right. Its good to have good healthcare, but its not a right, its a service.
What is the level of housing that should be supplied as a “right”?
Im rather happy you live where you live myself.
@ Contour…
“Im rather happy you live where you live myself”
So am I TBH….
I guess this boils down to the essential difference between US and European cultures.
I have a certain amount of respect for the American culture of self reliance, but I personally have no problem with paying a level of tax you would find intolerable.. ( 30% income tax, 20% VAT, or ” point of sale ” tax )
For this I get clean and well maintained streets, low crime due to an efficient and well funded police force, free insulin to keep me alive, my kids are getting a fantastic education, Sweden has one of the lowest poverty rates in the world, we consider health care a basic right, along with housing.
I suffer from mental illness along with my diabetes, and have access to mental health care 24/7, which has very litteraly saved my life.
There will always be a small percentage of folk that abuse a socialist society, but it’s considered a small price to pay for the welfare of all, and the vast majority of my fellow citizens are hard working, good men and women.
The American “way” works for you guys, and the Socialist “way” works for us guys .. We are all still breathing, so there must be some merit in both systems, although I’d much rather be down in my luck here than over there.
All that said I still don’t see what this has to do with the topic!
;-)
Sorry, I forgot to respond to this point also
“The weaker members, yes, but someone who is down on his luck needs to get help from his local church until his luck changes”
I am Athiest, I respect your right to choose whatever religion you like, but I would never expect to receive help from a church, mosque, synagogue or temple… That is not there job… ( Although the local Sikh temple back in my home town in the UK opened its doors to all every Sunday to dish out some delicious food to anyone who cared to partake… I did many times.. but always made a donation… I wouldn’t want to be a leach!)
( sorry… Above post directed at Edward, not Contour! )….. I’m posting whilst cleaning…. Lol…
“All that said I still don’t see what this has to do with the topic!
If and when the politicos that see their roll in life as to becoming involved with every aspect of an individuals life and give “Rights” out like candy then there is no room for anything else but to have those who pay for everything pay for everything.
Again, a right is something that protects you FROM government, not an asset or commodity to be distributed like cheese. Housing and healthcare are things, not rights. This is where you fundamentally are unable to understand.
And, and this was my point from the start, at that point if a rational line is not drawn by the people between what the government MUST supply to the people in the form of “Rights” then there is no room (Or money) for any concern about space activities.
You see the government as your savior, a rational American understands that the government is a function of the people, not the people are a function of the government. In your model the government “Owns” you in a sense and is burdened with taking care of their “property”. Not a good long term model IMO.
History is rife with examples that serve my point well.
Here is one of them Sweden. https://youtu.be/VWF7hUZxf20.
Sweden is a victim of their own “Compassion” and their compassion is based in Liberal / Leftist / Communist doctrine and manipulation. And we all understand the road that they are on.
@ Cotour
You rant and rave, while I sit in my back yard enjoying the summer weather… Drinking a nice cold glass of white wine…
Nobody “owns” me…. I pay into a social system I am happy with….. That’s it….
You have no more right to criticize the system that I live in, than I do to yours…
Except if I was poor, out of work, disabled, underprivileged, the wrong colour…. If I was there, I would be seriously down on my luck….
Here not so much.
I was in West Virginia recently, and met many people who were lacking a limb or 2….
Down to diabetes….
I get my insulin free from the state… It means I have both my legs and can go to work and pay back into the system that supports me
The land of the free is no doubt a fine place to live… As long as your not poor.
If you live in a glass house… Don’t throw stones…. My life is fine.. what is wrong with that?
And yes, contrary to your views, I consider a roof over the head, access to health care, something to eat, and sexual healthcare all basic human rights…..
You don’t….
That’s fine.
Which culture has the better morals?
( and your YouTube link is one of the best examples of cherry picking I’ve ever seen …. ) I am “boots on the ground”. . I’m an Englishman living in an immigrant area…. My neighbor’s are Sumali, Pakistani, Iranian and many other cultures…. The food is wonderful, the folk are friendly and I like living here…. You probably wouldn’t…
( And no one has a gun!)
There is no ranting, no raving. You asked for me to hash out the difference between how we think to be explained and I was attempting to do so. The difference is fundamental and I have done that in a calm and rational manner.
“I get my insulin free from the state”
Another misconception by you. Their is nothing free supplied by the government, although you continually say its free. The government has NOTHING. You pay for it, and at the point where there becomes no more room for any other spending but for the housing and healthcare or what ever else of the populous there can be no concern about space or moon colonies. Government knows no boundaries related to drawing the line. Without rational push back the government would soon literally own you, for it knows no bounds.
The “right” to housing needs to be replaced by you with the choice of the social safety net that you and your government choose to supply. Your system is really not Socialist, probably much more like the Danish system. It is a capitalist system that chooses to engage in ever growing social systems. And the evidence is that you both have gone much too far. As evidenced by the invasion of your country facilitated by your own government. The results of which you have chosen not to comment on.
You are in fact “owned”, and we are all “owned” and slaves to some degree by our systems. Where the line is drawn is my concern here.
Again, no ranting, no raving.
“Which culture has the better morals?”
??????? I don’t know, that is a subjective question that would be answered in a subjective manner. I am happy where I am.
The Swedish guy in the video appears to me to be a fairly rational person, a real Swede from birth watching his country change in ways that he does not agree with. But changing it is.
Don’t like England anymore? I would be curious as to why?
Lee, not to divert the conversation, but local churches would likely be very willing to assist you if needed, regardless of your relationship with the church.
@ Contour..
Thank you for engaging with me…. Even though we don’t see eye to eye, the discussion is appreciated…. And I take back my “rant” comment…. Although I’m still sitting in the warm evening with another glass of wine…
““I get my insulin free from the state”
Another misconception by you..”
I stated early in my post the tax I pay…. I do understand nothing is free…. I get back a fraction now for my insulin….. I met several folk while in WV who had lost one or 2 legs due to not being able to pay for the insulin that would keep them both alive, and able to work…
I pay probably 10x the tax you pay, if not more… I also enjoy the benefits of a socialist state… I am not owned by them, but enjoy the benefits . .
You should travel to Europe some time and see the way it works over here…. I am happy to pay my high tax rate , and happy my kids grow up in a safe environment.
You can say what you like about the benefits and deficits of the US system… But I’m going inside soon, and know that me and my daughter will be safe, sleep in my wonderful apartment, and there are no guns for miles…..
I love you American dudes….. But you should be a little more open minded…. You live by your constitution, we here in Europe live by democracy… We are all still breathing… Both must work…
@ commodude,
I appreciate what you are saying… Thank you my friend. I don’t actually like churches, or religion in general. L
But it has to be said that one of the better things Christian churches have done over the years is supply aid when needed..
I still am Athiest ;-)
Lee S,
You wrote: “We are all still breathing, so there must be some merit in both systems, although I’d much rather be down in my luck here than over there.”
Declaring that there is merit in a system in which everyone is still breathing also gives merit to a slavery system.
The reason that you would rather be down on your luck there rather than over here is because while you are there you need not look for a job, because you can freely eat the bread that other people worked hard to make. Over here, we would expect you to help make the bread, which is more work than playing.
The question is: in the Little Red Hen story, are you the lazy dog, the sleepy cat, or the noisy yellow duck who expects we Little Red Hens to do all the work for you? Of course you sit in your back yard drinking wine and are happy to pay into a system that you said, months ago, gives you more than you pay for. Many lazy people are happy with such a system. They don’t have to work hard to get undeserved stuff; other people have to work hard in order for them to get undeserved stuff.
“but I would never expect to receive help from a church … (I wouldn’t want to be a leach!)”
It turns out that one of their primary jobs is to help those who are down on their luck get back on their feet. I suppose that an atheist would be ignorant of such major function of the church. This is not being a leach. Eventually you will be back on your feet doing your part for the economy and society and presumably repaying the church that helped you with either cash, or better yet with volunteer labor.
On the other hand, expecting others to provide for you for life is being a leach. You expect others to provide you with health care as a basic right, along with housing. Those are two expensive rights for you to insist someone else provide to you.
Speaking of being a leach, we Americans pay more for our drugs, because the rest of the world only pays for production costs, leaving we Americans to pay the high price of development for the drugs the rest of the world benefits from.
You’re welcome.
“You have no more right to criticize the system that I live in, than I do to yours…”
Which gives us a huge latitude to criticize, as in our system we have freedom of speech, obviously (from your comment) giving us more rights than you seem to have. Since you have already done your part in criticizing our system then in your eyes we have plenty of right to criticize yours.
“The land of the free is no doubt a fine place to live… As long as your not poor.”
Even if you are poor, it is a fine place to live. Maybe you think that poverty makes it worse because that is what you see around you, but over here, the poor are still free.
“I consider a roof over the head, access to health care, something to eat, and sexual healthcare all basic human rights….. You don’t. … Which culture has the better morals?”
Mine, since my culture considers merit, not existence, as a driving factor for how much a person receives. For you it is “from each according to his willingness to participate; to each according to his ability to game the system.” In my system it is “to each according to what he produces for the rest.”
Your system runs on the greedy needy. For you, there is only as much pie as other people are willing to bake.
Our system runs on the merits of what we each produce for each other. If I want to live above the poverty level, I have to produce goods or services that improve other people’s lives, too. In fact, I have to be aware of what other people want or need so that I can supply them with what they are willing to pay for. This sounds to me like a much more conscientious society, because we end up with what we want, not what the government is willing to give to us.
For us, if we want more pie, we bake it. As an added bonus, we can even trade pies for other flavors that we ourselves are not so good at making, resulting in an increased standard of living for all.
What makes me deserving of a slice of my mother’s delicious pecan pie at Thanksgiving? My Dutch apple pie that is so sweet that it gives me a belly ache. It is a fair trade. Everyone is happy, because everyone is better off, and because everyone has contributed.
Instead, in your system, you expect someone to just give you a roof over your head and expensive health care just because you breathe. Living and respirating are respectable achievements, but what have you done for somebody else, recently? Meanwhile, somebody else is required by you to provide you with that roof and expensive health care.
This ability of ours to do for others has made it possible for America to go from literally a backwoods community unable to feed itself, using your socialist system, but using free market capitalism and merit it became within three centuries a place that defended the world from tyranny — twice. It turned into a place so desirable to live in that people flock here.
“But I’m going inside soon, and know that me and my daughter will be safe, sleep in my wonderful apartment, and there are no guns for miles…..”
I sleep safely — because there are plenty of guns nearby — in my wonderful house, which I bought myself. If some outlaw crosses the border illegally decides to shoot up a gun-free zone, no one can stop him. But they don’t shoot up Plano Texas, because there are plenty of armed civilians to prevent a shooting from becoming a spree. When seconds count, they don’t have to be assured that help is only minutes away, because a gun is right there to protect them.
You, Lee S, are under the misimpression that the United States is homogeneous. It is not. The shooting sprees here happen in the gun-free zones because no one there is able to stop them. Even in socialist, gun-free Europe there are shootings that the police are not right there to stop. In the case of Charlie Hebdo, in France, the police officer couldn’t stop it, because the officer was unarmed — despite being on the spot specifically to prevent such a tragedy. So much for that “well funded police force.”
“All that said I still don’t see what this has to do with the topic!”
The topic is government-run projects and how they are not doing well.
Socialism fits in, because it runs the social programs in government fashion, not in an efficient fashion, which commercial projects need to do, otherwise they go bust. Poorly run government programs can go on and on as long as they make the government happy.
Here in America, we have noticed that government run healthcare in Britain and Canada is atrocious. Even the Brits and Canadians think so, as private healthcare companies successfully compete with the “free” (read: “astonishingly expensive, ineffective, but prepaid”) care systems.
Government housing projects have also been disastrous, being more like run-down housing owned by an inattentive landlord than housing run by caring people.
Government space programs also tend to be expensive, run over budget, and run behind schedule. We have seen comparisons between SLS and Falcon Heavy, and between Orion and Crewed Dragon. The projects commercially run by We the People tend to do better, even though all of them are for government consumption.
I have neither the time nor inclination to address the above point by point, but I would like to say that now my children are bigger, I no longer have subsided parental leave…. I still pay my tax, so I am now a net contributer to the system… Fine by me… That’s the way the system here works. It does work.. and I like it.
You should try looking at the history of human insulin… How something that was given to the world at large for free by its inventor has been tweaked so it can be patented over and again by US big pharma companies, and priced out of the range of many people.
And Swedish police carry guns. ( With snub nosed rounds to minimize collateral damage)
You also seem to be under the misassumption that I am some sort of scrounger… I work 40-45 hours per week, pay a rent which is comparable to US prices for my apartment ( C. $750 per month ), and as I have mentioned, pay undoubted much more tax than you do… For the greater good of the greater numbers.
I don’t understand why you are so defensive…. You are welcome to your system, I just prefer mine.
I can also say that I have visited the US on several occasions… the latest being 6 months ago…Not the tourist areas, but to visit friends in NC and WV… So I have seen with my own eyes. When was the last time you were in Sweden or the UK?
I would like to point something out here that makes the conversation even more of an intellectual discussion. Not to mention the singular homogenous nature of Sweden and the multi states rights / Constitutional nature of America.
American population: 327 million people.
Swedish population: 8.7 million (The city that I live in, NYC, has a population of 8.2 million people.)
I do not really believe that the Swedish system scales in relation to the American system.
@ Contour… You may very well be right…. Perhaps the system I live in would not scale up to US sizes… ( It’s more like 10 million these days by the way…. If you think the Mexican boarder is a problem… You really should visit Europe….)
I didn’t want to get too specific… But I’m going too….
My last visit over there was to Mannington, west Virginia…. A “City” of around 6000 people…. Once prosperous… Indeed you can see the coal seams in the side of the roads.
Now run down, every second house is falling apart and abandoned…..
I met the most wonderful people there…. Proud people… With no chance of work outside of Walmart or MacDonalds… People with calloused hands who have no chance to do the work they so desperately want to… Because there is no work.
I also met 3 amputees, they lost limbs because they couldn’t afford insulin.
The good folk of Mannington, WV, Are in need of a cash injection by the government to kick start some sort of industry again… I don’t know what… But the people there are suffering… Not because of their own fault, but because the workers have no work… And no safety net to help them out.
It made me sad…. I visited empty resteraunts and bars…. And all the owners said they would be out of business in a year or two….
I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing…. I have a lot of respect for the US… ( You turn up late to world wars… But we are still glad you came! ;-) ), but I think a touch of social care could go a long way….
I follow US news… The plight of Flint, with its lead flavour water springs to mind…. Sometimes people are down on their luck, not because of being lazy or unwilling, but because there is no luck to be had.
That is when I think a caring state has the responsibility to intervene and try and give the citizens something to dig themselves out of the mess life has dealt them.
Tonight it’s baked potatoes with tuna, corn and mayo… I wish you a great day/evening/morning…. whatever the time difference allows ;-)
There are cycles to economies and communities and sometimes you get stuck in a place and are not able to change your situation. And sometimes you choose to move to where there is more opportunity.
Either way your insistence that it is the governments place and responsibility to live peoples lives for them and make choices for them in all cases is disturbing to me. Paternalism on steroids.
PS: You do not write like an Englishman, curious.
I never said that I expect a government to live anyone’s life for them…. Only that I believe a governments job is to keep a country running AND to protect its citizens…. And I guess therein lies our difference….
We also have democracy, and if the powers that be are doing a bad job, we vote them out….. ( Please don’t look at Brexit…. I don’t live there any more…. It’s not my fault! ) ;-)
I lived in Greece for 3 years, and have lived in Sweden for 18 years now…. That might perhaps explain my mongrel way of writing… Or it could just be that I’m a strange kind of fella!
Now we are not arguing…. I agree entirely regarding government Vs free enterprise when it comes to space exploration. SpaceX has proved in spades that private is better than public when it comes down to exploring the last frontier… And as I have said elsewhere on here…. I am doubtful about ExoMars’s chances of success…. The European mission has been planned and designed by committee, from a multitude of countries… What could possibly go wrong?
I don’t have a dog in the race ( although I’d be more than willing to donate a tax dollar or 2 to NASA…), but it is frustrating to see how the pork is eaten up over there… With the bucks available, James Webb, Europa Clipper and a decent launch system and capsule should be done and dusted by now…
Also…. My next visit to the states will hopefully be to your home city… I’ve heard some good things about NYC…
Lee S,
You wrote: “so I am now a net contributer to the system”
So, you can now afford your own insulin?
“How something that was given to the world at large for free by its inventor has been tweaked so it can be patented over and again by US big pharma companies, and priced out of the range of many people.”
So, why don’t you use the free insulin? Could it be that those US big pharma companies spent billions of (not your) dollars making improvements that you enjoy? Did the original inventor spend very little making something that barely worked (which would explain why you don’t use it), so others put some real effort into making something that worked better? This is often how many things are improved, and I suspect that this is the case with insulin. This specific case does not interest me, but you have done the research (or implied that you did), so you tell me why you don’t use the free stuff.
“And Swedish police carry guns. ( With snub nosed rounds to minimize collateral damage)”
The external collateral damage, yes, but their victim has far, far more internal collateral damage.
I’m glad that the Swedish police carry guns, but aren’t they still minutes away when seconds count? Or are they located on every street corner?
“You also seem to be under the misassumption that I am some sort of scrounger”
You are the one who once claimed to get more that he gives. What do you think of such a person?
“and as I have mentioned, pay undoubted much more tax than you do… For the greater good of the greater numbers.”
You may pay more tax than I do, but I do not expect or demand cradle to grave babysitting. I can take care of myself, thank you very much, without the government having to go to great trouble to care for me. Thus, I do not need a government that needs huge amounts of tax revenue.
Don’t get me started on the horrific evils that have been perpetrated upon humanity in the name of the greater good.
Why is it that when it comes to the greater good it is always socialists or big government (babysitter) advocates who want to tell us what to do for the good of other people? Why not be allowed to start a company that does good for some greater number of people? Why aren’t the greater efficiencies that free market capitalists create also for the greater good?
Who decides what the greater good is, anyway? Isn’t it always someone who rules — or wants to rule — over the rest of us?
“So I have seen with my own eyes. When was the last time you were in Sweden or the UK?”
I love this argument. It is a variation of the “you have to be one in order to comment” argument.
Socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried, although those who are net takers rather than net makers tend to like socialism, but that is because they think that their own plights are the greater good. Large countries, small countries, or the Plymouth Colony village, none have been able to make socialism work once the other people’s money ran out. Free market capitalism has worked everywhere it has been tried, even the limited amounts in socialist India and communist China.
The smart man learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from other people’s mistakes. I already know that I do not want to try socialism in order to learn that it is a mistake. I already learned from a large number of other people’s mistakes.
Meanwhile, I await the day that Sweden runs out of other people’s money (its previous free market capitalists’s money).
“My last visit over there was to Mannington, west Virginia…. A “City” of around 6000 people…. Once prosperous… Indeed you can see the coal seams in the side of the roads.”
Excellent choice of example. However, wasn’t it the communist-raised Obama who almost destroyed coal mining in the U.S.? That town would be an example of the evil of the greater good (kill coal to save the rest of us from global warming), central-government control (socialist and communist philosophy), and running out of other people’s money. Obama presented us with social care, and in that town you saw the result.
You have seen your own country’s future.
Why is it, again, that the amputees you met could not afford the free insulin?
You haven’t addressed the terrible “free” healthcare in Canada or Britain. I forgot; you haven’t seen them with your own eyes, so you don’t think of yourself as qualified to comment on them.
“You turn up late to world wars… But we are still glad you came! ;-)”
We had wished that you guys wouldn’t start such wars in the first place. It was freaking costly for us to clean up your mess. It looks like you all have finally learned that lesson. Please remember, Hitler was leader of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. He thought that his actions were for the greater good, at least for Germans? How did that greater good philosophy work out?
“The plight of Flint, with its lead flavour water springs to mind”
Aren’t you aware that Flint is run by Democrats, a party that favors socialist philosophy? The lead problem came from government decisions.
Why is it that government believes that it has to solve all of our problems? Why can’t we do the solving? Whenever we let government solve a problem then more problems crop up. It is almost as though governments mess up on purpose in order solve more and more problems, which is supposed to result in people thinking that they need government to run their lives.
You, Lee S, are the right person to ask, because you believe in all this socialism, greater good, government running our lives malarkey.
“Sometimes people are down on their luck, not because of being lazy or unwilling, but because there is no luck to be had.”
We discussed this previously. You aren’t learning much from this discussion.
I have been down on my luck, on occasion, but I didn’t need to suck off anyone else’s teat, not even the church’s. I had wisely (learned from other people’s mistakes) saved up money for such a problem, and I once even had to draw down some of my retirement savings. When my luck changed — I was instrumental in bringing that about — I picked myself up, dusted myself off, got back to work, and refilled my Rainy Day savings account (my credit union lets me name my savings accounts).
When it comes to living, failure is an option. It is an excellent way to learn (from our own mistakes), and the lessons are better remembered. You certainly have not learned from other people’s mistakes, such as the failure of socialism everywhere it is tried — right at the moment that it runs out of other people’s money.
Government has only three responsibilities: protect its citizens from all enemies, foreign and domestic; peaceably resolve disputes; and keep out of its citizens’s way. The reason for churches and other non-governmental groups to help those down on their luck is that those groups have an interest in getting them off their teat. Government agencies merely create internal empires, where the agency has an interest in growing. Thus, we do not want government being a welfare agency, as it will only grow in size even as it grows beyond a $2 trillion drain on the U.S. economy, supporting people who could be makers rather than takers.
The church cares, because it sees and knows the individuals being helped. The government does not care about any of the individuals, they are — at best — only line items on a ledger, but more likely individuals don’t even show up in the ledger.
“I never said that I expect a government to live anyone’s life for them….”
Actually, this is what is implied in the “for the greater good” argument. In order for a greater good to be protected, someone has to tell us what to do and what not to do to protect it. Telling us how to live our lives is like living our lives for us. We no longer get to choose how to live, someone else — the government — gets to choose for us.
This is also required for the government to protect us from anything but enemies. If government is to protect us from ourselves, our mistakes, or from times we are down on our luck, then it absolutely must be able to tell us how to run our lives. Otherwise, we might make mistakes, choose the wrong thing to do for the greater good, or not do what needs to be done to change our luck. Under that kind of government protection, we would rely upon government, not ourselves, to change our luck. Where in that is the living of our own lives?
To protect us from foreign enemies, the government may from time to time draft us into the military. Sometimes we get caught up in other people’s wars and we have to save the world from tyranny and socialists such as Nationalist Socialists. Fortunately, to protect us from domestic enemies, we have police who are self-selected, not drafted, and we have the right to bear arms ourselves — a major help in protecting us from foreign as well as domestic enemies, as we learn how to use weapons and know how to use them when we are called upon to save the world.
By the way, the reason we took so long to save your butts is that government is supposed to protect its own citizens, not the whole world. Thank you so much for turning us into the world’s policeman, with all the ingratitude that role comes with. The UN should be filling that role — but then again, it thinks that with a role like that it should be able to tell the world’s people how to run their own lives.
In peaceably resolving disputes, we may from time to time be drafted into jury duty. This community service is a small price to pay for peace.
“We also have democracy, and if the powers that be are doing a bad job, we vote them out”
Tell that to the Venezuelans.
“My next visit to the states will hopefully be to [Cotour’s] home city… I’ve heard some good things about NYC”
It is also run by socialist-favoring Democrats. Don’t be surprised if you find problems there. The wealthy are already starting to flee to more capitalist-friendly places.
NYC is a nice place to visit but I’d do some research on what you find interesting and pick another state. Depending on your time and funds, it could very well be worth your while to buy a used class c RV and drive around the country for three or four months. Sell the RV when your trip is over.
Lee S,
You wrote: “My next visit to the states will hopefully be to [Cotour’s] home city… I’ve heard some good things about NYC”
Other socialist cities to visit in the U.S. include:
San Francisco, California. A tourist city where they use the sidewalks as toilets and the streets as open sewers.
Detroit, Michigan. The left’s Model City, as declared in 1960 as they took over its government from Republicans who had made it a great city. Now, after more than half a century of leftist/socialist rule, the population of Detroit is half of its 1960 population (the rest of the country grew to twice its 1960 population), the suburbs are looking like Mannington, West Virginia, and in 2009 much of Detroit’s population lined up for hours to receive free Obamabucks.
Chicago, Illinois. Where gun control has left much of the population in fear of the next gang firefight. Where guns are outlawed, only the outlaws have guns — and they are emboldened to use them against the disarmed, poorly protected population.
Seattle, Washington. Which is dying.
Portland, Oregon. Which is following Seattle’s lead.
https://lmtribune.com/opinion/seattle-is-dying-so-are-portland-and-spokane/article_5446322d-d699-53e1-af5b-d086a1dd718f.html
AOC: “Basic rights are a luxury and a privilege”.
https://youtu.be/iDO7Xhn2qPI 3min. (She gets cuter every time I see her. And more dangerous.)
Rights, basic or otherwise, are not luxuries nor are they a privilege, they are rights. (A right is something that protects an individual from the abuse of power against an individual of a government. A right is not a house nor healthcare, which are things or services provided by others)
This is “fundamental change” as referenced by the head Leftist Obama during his time as president. Redefine every term and word that hampers your ability to fundamentally change what is in order to facilitate what the Leftist agenda demands, “Equality”.
Lee S, you can keep this (Expletive deleted), you have not got a clue as to what your “freedom” sits upon, it comes at a steep price indeed.
Omg…. I didn’t expect such a tirade of hate….
“Government has only three responsibilities”….
YOUR government may only have 3…. But I live in a different country, with different values…. Implemented by the democratically elected government of the country I live in…. I like it. That’s it.
Your need to rant and rave and write paragraphs about why I am wrong and you are right speaks much more about you than me.
I like what I have, I will keep it, thank you very much… And after having first hand experience the situations in many countries… I choose to raise my family here.
You don’t have to…. Good for you.
Lee S: Your referring to Edward’s post as “hate” and “ranting” and “raving” discredits you, and makes you no different then all the left I always complain about. Edward was making some reasonable points, referring to facts. You need to deal with those facts in order to debate effectively. By failing to do so, and instead calling him names, you help convince all neutral readers of this debate of the weakness of your position.
You can disagree, but from my position you approach here only confirms my criticisms of the left. When they find they can’t win the debate, they start calling people names. Sadly, when that fails too many on the left then take the next step, committing violence.
For Lee S: This is the expression of Socialism in America and is why there is such a dislike for the promotion of it.
https://youtu.be/MSdZwsXgcFg
Socialism in American is used to oppress people, mostly the minority people, much like modern day slavery. And is used to facilitate the acquisition of and the retention of power. Plain and simple.
This woman came to understand how she was being used and found her way out of it. Something to think about in how many Americans see and understand Socialism in its application.
Lee S,
Of course you like the country in which you live. That is why you live there rather than either of the other two countries you previously lived in. You are comfortable there and for good reason. Liking the country that makes you feel comfortable does not make you right about anything else about it.
It is probably just as beautiful as many places here in California, and judging by your attitude and responses, the people there are probably just like the people here, enjoying a democratically elected government that treats us like children who should not be allowed to get straws at an inland sit-down restaurant because those straws will end up in the ocean — but straws from the fast-food take-out window next to the beach won’t.
Although sometimes it is nice to sit back and relax while someone else directs me as to how to live my life, it turns out that it is never nice, is always annoying at best, is sometimes dangerous, and is usually stupid, because even a democratically-elected socialist government is truly stupid. Sometimes, such as in Europe, they take in supposed “refugees” who consider it their duty to rape and kill infidels. Other times, such as in California, they direct us to have large fleets of electric cars but fail to increase the number of power plants in order to recharge those cars — but it was yet another truly stupid directive that resulted in all those mid-afternoon power outages during the hot summer days back at the turn of the century. These days, it is a new directive for we Californians to be prepared for routine power outages for “safety” reasons (I received the letter just last week), because another of their stupid directives resulted in unsafe conditions for our power lines.
Yes, it is nice living under a socialist government that knows just how to take care of its citizens, with rules, regulations, and laws that [bleep]-up the whole works. Half a century ago, people were flocking to California like it was the place to be. These days people are fleeing from California like it is the place to leave.
Just like parents who discover that they cannot afford to treat their adult children as minors who cannot yet take care of themselves, those nice, comfortable, democratically elected governments also cannot afford to treat their adult citizens as minors.
This is why limited government is affordable government and expansive government is expensive government.
Your country may have been moving toward socialism for decades, but various cities and states in the U.S. have been socialist for almost half a century, and they are showing you your children’s future. Warning you about their future is worth writing a few paragraphs about why your country’s socialism is the wrong way to go.
On the other hand, I want my state and my country to avoid the traps and pitfalls of socialism. I want to change them from going in the destructive direction that they have taken over the past few decades. I have seen the results of socialist policies with my own eyes in my own city, and I want to go back to the way it was before socialism started destroying everything.
Robert,
You wrote: “Lee S: Your referring to Edward’s post as “hate” and “ranting” and “raving” discredits you, and makes you no different then all the left I always complain about.”
How true. It is my experience that those on the left consider any ideas or speech that they disagree with as hateful speech. Although recently they have started to call it “violent speech” or even call it actual violence, but I suppose that allows them to justify committing actual violence against those who disagree with them.
The words “ranting” and “raving” are new, too. Usually I hear the words “fascist” or (whenever remotely possible) “racist,” which goes back all the way to my college years, when I first learned about leftist behavior. I learned that they shout down opposing viewpoints, and I remember when Jeane Kirkpatrick was shouted down on the Berkeley campus — ironically the home of the Free Speech Movement, two decades earlier.
Lee S considers any disagreement with his point of view to be “venom,” yet here he actually uses words intending them to be hurtful and to shut me up. To paraphrase his own words, it speaks much more about him than me.
https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/woman-forced-into-hiding-after-admitting-at-feminist-event-she-voted-for-trump/#comment-1067820
“The hate and venom I have received on here for speaking my moderate left wing view is telling..“